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I wasn’t talking about you.
But I’m questioning why it matters that other people think these things about it.
not a Jedi apologist or a Jedi hater but a secret third thing
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion. — Page 25
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I wasn’t talking about you.
But I’m questioning why it matters that other people think these things about it.
Because it shows how the prequels failed to communicate the story, and why their legacy continues to make the setting worse. This mainstream interpretation of events is directly responsible for The Last Jedi and The Acolyte and lots of other bad EU stories, and like I’ve been saying, retroactively damages the original trilogy. I think it has some real life consequences as well but I won’t get into that.
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Because it shows how the prequels failed to communicate the story, and why their legacy continues to make the setting worse. This mainstream interpretation of events is directly responsible for The Last Jedi and The Acolyte and lots of other bad EU stories, and like I’ve been saying, retroactively damages the original trilogy. I think it has some real life consequences as well but I won’t get into that.
I don’t think that connects. People come out of movies all the time with different ideas. And when the movies basically put out the opposite of this for the most part, I think that’s the issue with those that interpret it that way.
A. I think TLJ had almost nothing to say about the Jedi as a whole, and just had Luke whine about how they failed mostly. Even the Acolyte’s writing is thin, to me, and it only actually directly says that a few Jedi were corrupt or messed up. Which changes nothing about the Jedi as a whole. Again, I think the responsibility of those who wrote it that way. Why would the PT be at fault for the decisions of others? Criticize the movies all you want, but the jedi’s worst trait, that I see, in the movies, at worst, is a couple having arrogance issues or apathy or lacking awareness, in regards to personality. Yeah, there’s the idea of them being lacking in competence from some (which I don’t entirely agree with), but nothing that would lend itself to anything TLJ or Acolyte may be trying to do with them (I say try because I think they’re so weak or thin they say fairly little, beyond what I said above).
B. Why does it matter that other people saw it this way to the point where they’d do these things? Why would it change the views or emotions of someone who doesn’t think that?
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Vladius said:
I think it has some real life consequences as well but I won’t get into that.
Always amused by the chip on your shoulder about this topic, but I do think this would be interesting to hear!
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Vladius said:
I think it has some real life consequences as well but I won’t get into that.Always amused by the chip on your shoulder about this topic, but I do think this would be interesting to hear!
That’s why I won’t talk about it. You can probably infer if you’ve already read all my other posts for your amusement.
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I wasn’t talking about you.
But I’m questioning why it matters that other people think these things about it.
Because it shows how the prequels failed to communicate the story, and why their legacy continues to make the setting worse. This mainstream interpretation of events is directly responsible for The Last Jedi and The Acolyte and lots of other bad EU stories, and like I’ve been saying, retroactively damages the original trilogy. I think it has some real life consequences as well but I won’t get into that.
Actually, the core message of The Last Jedi is that all of Luke’s criticisms of the Jedi were wrong. Luke is supposed to go through a redemption arc in the film. He eventually realizes that hiding was a mistake, that not confronting Kylo was a mistake, and that everything he said about the Jedi was nonsense. By the end, he even says he won’t be the last Jedi, which implies that he has realized he was mistaken about the Jedi. The problem is that the movie is so poorly written, and Rian Johnson did such a bad job, that Luke’s entire redemption arc barely comes across.
As for the old EU, most of the stories set in the Prequel era portray the Jedi as heroic and noble. At worst, you might find the occasional criticism of the no-marriage rule, but overall the picture you get is of the Jedi being selfless and admirable, even during the Prequel era. In fact, the EU fandom is full of people who share that view of the Jedi, precisely because most of the stories from that period tend to present them as fundamentally good people. The only real exception would be the Republic Commando novels, but those books were never particularly popular outside of hardcore Mandalorian fans.
“I know that all of you like to dream about space and are a little bit of envious of us. But you know what? We’re also envious of you. We are exploring space, but it’s only the beginning. Planets and unknown worlds are awaiting you. You will continue to storm the Universe.”
— Yuri Gagarin
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I wasn’t talking about you.
But I’m questioning why it matters that other people think these things about it.
Because it shows how the prequels failed to communicate the story, and why their legacy continues to make the setting worse. This mainstream interpretation of events is directly responsible for The Last Jedi and The Acolyte and lots of other bad EU stories, and like I’ve been saying, retroactively damages the original trilogy. I think it has some real life consequences as well but I won’t get into that.
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Vladius said:
I think it has some real life consequences as well but I won’t get into that.Always amused by the chip on your shoulder about this topic, but I do think this would be interesting to hear!
That’s why I won’t talk about it. You can probably infer if you’ve already read all my other posts for your amusement.
I mean, I am being sincere here. I think if there’s something genuinely important to you here and not just kind of an annoyance with people you could just ignore, that’s a real discussion worth starting IMO
not a Jedi apologist or a Jedi hater but a secret third thing
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I wasn’t talking about you.
But I’m questioning why it matters that other people think these things about it.
Because it shows how the prequels failed to communicate the story, and why their legacy continues to make the setting worse. This mainstream interpretation of events is directly responsible for The Last Jedi and The Acolyte and lots of other bad EU stories, and like I’ve been saying, retroactively damages the original trilogy. I think it has some real life consequences as well but I won’t get into that.
Actually, the core message of The Last Jedi is that all of Luke’s criticisms of the Jedi were wrong. Luke is supposed to go through a redemption arc in the film. He eventually realizes that hiding was a mistake, that not confronting Kylo was a mistake, and that everything he said about the Jedi was nonsense. By the end, he even says he won’t be the last Jedi, which implies that he has realized he was mistaken about the Jedi. The problem is that the movie is so poorly written, and Rian Johnson did such a bad job, that Luke’s entire redemption arc barely comes across.
As for the old EU, most of the stories set in the Prequel era portray the Jedi as heroic and noble. At worst, you might find the occasional criticism of the no-marriage rule, but overall the picture you get is of the Jedi being selfless and admirable, even during the Prequel era. In fact, the EU fandom is full of people who share that view of the Jedi, precisely because most of the stories from that period tend to present them as fundamentally good people. The only real exception would be the Republic Commando novels, but those books were never particularly popular outside of hardcore Mandalorian fans.
You’re right that it tries to have its cake and eat it too because the movie refuses to commit to anything, but most of the messaging is never actually refuted. Luke’s role is reinterpreted as being about how important the Jedi were as a symbol or a noble lie, which is why he helps through a projected image instead of actually fighting. Oh sure, they never were the real heroes… but people thought they were, and it’s really the thought that counts. Even if they suck, at the end of the day, they’re helpful for inspiring the proles to become Rebels and inspiring kids with brooms.
To bring in a little more controversy (since apparently my posts rile people up for entertainment value and generate performative “who cares” posts from people who clearly care), Luke is the “Ghost of Kyiv” from early 2022.
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To bring in a little more controversy (since apparently my posts rile people up for entertainment value and generate performative “who cares” posts from people who clearly care), Luke is the “Ghost of Kyiv” from early 2022.
Eh, I really don’t care and I find it amusing that you put so much effort into this.
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I think the Last Jedi communicated its main ideas pretty effectively, I also think at this point the whole conversation about the film and what it did/didn’t do, and the metatextual aspect of discussion the discussions, has so thoroughly overwhelmed it, to where anything about the film is destined to get sucked into a timelocked field of battle that starts around January 2018 and encompasses the rest of that year.
It’s literally like when The Doctor trapped Gallifrey in a 3D painting - that’s The Last Jedi at this point. It’s a very well made movie, easily the closest thing IN the sequel trilogy to a Lucasian story, (and people keep sidestepping/avoiding this aspect - Last Jedi the only story Lucas actually liked and spoke well of - not just in the prequel trilogy, but really across the whole of the output post-sale) and you basically cannot engage with it past a certain point or you get hauled into a timeloop where it never stopped being 2018 and everyone’s basically waiting to indulge the ritual exercise and call-and-response prompts they all know by heart now.
The Acolyte, however - I kinda tried to address/rectify this to some degree in my own edit: My belief is that show ended up getting compromised on the way from pitch to realized show mostly BECAUSE the idea that there was going to be a dark-side focused show that unambiguously shone a light on the Jedi as “not all that good, honestly” got kiboshed. So the show got watered down, and watered down, and the idea of a revenge story against Jedi who overstepped and deserved what they got in return… turned into a weird wishy-washy, mealy-mouth “mystery” whose POV got so muddied it basically became a mild sort of paean to “fence-straddling” as a valid lens to look through.
They HAD a show about intolerant cops covering up their own crime and the victims of that crime getting their payback. And instead they tried to make it weird apologia for the intolerant cops and their system of policing as a whole. Which was weird, because it’s not like this was a real-world institution. The Jedi don’t exist, and huge parts of the fictional universe literally DEPEND on that fake institution collapsing on itself due to corruption/hubris/disconnection from humanity. It made the show severely compromised as dramatic storytelling. Like the people making it were TOLD at some point that what’s important wasn’t even really the story, it was the sanctity of the not-real institution at its center. It wound up being a show without a country, for lack of a better term.
But then again - I think a lot of conversations about these shows/movies would be a lot less fraught in general if the underlying implication WASN’T that Star Wars is more good than bad (it isn’t) and that the stakes for each new entry WEREN’T sky high box-office/ratings/critical triumphs in the top 5% of anything else that’s ever been made, because I honestly think that’s beyond silly at this point. It’s just making it hard to actually enjoy and appreciate these stories for what they are when we’re constantly holding an artificial (and honestly incorrect) standard for minimm quality up as baseline.
It’s okay that about half of all Star Wars is frankly, not good. It’s fine. It’s not a massive insult, and it’s also not a new thing, either. It’s always been like this, and so many of the arguments that break out tend to break out because the people having them refuse to engage with it on anything other than All Or Nothing stakes.
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To bring in a little more controversy (since apparently my posts rile people up for entertainment value and generate performative “who cares” posts from people who clearly care), Luke is the “Ghost of Kyiv” from early 2022.
Eh, I really don’t care and I find it amusing that you put so much effort into this.
No need to be a dick about it though