What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion. — Page 23

I read the screenplay for ROTS, or at least the one that came with a “The Art Of” book in 2005. At the time I thought it wasn’t so bad. Probably because I could imagine it with less cringe and not so many weird performances.

The novelization is spectacular at least if a bit overrated. I’m saying that a diehard fan of Stover. After a while everyone tells you to read a tie in book, acts like it the best thing since sliced bread. Then you read it and you go Meh like Plagueis from Luceno.

Mocata said:
There’s been a lot of talk for many years now about how the prequels are looked at more fondly thanks to nostalgia. Or how they’re better if you’ve seen things the animated shows.

I don’t agree with that in either way. I think TCW only adds a few things that I think the PT didn’t really need to tell it’s story (like the extended info about the clones, though I think the movies could’ve stood to explore their personalities more), mostly. Otherwise I think it’s genericizes Anakin’s character from a troubled tortured person to a more square jawed jockish hero type akin to Han Solo, which some acclaim over the movies portrayal. Even though I think it’s just a more generic take on Anakin’s attitude at the beginning of ROTS.

As far as nostalgia, I’ve seen adults apparently watch the PT for the first time in present day and like them. Have criticisms, yes, but still like them. I dismiss the nostalgia assumptions on that. I think that’s a recycled Plinkett claim that falls apart under much scrutiny.

Huge parts of the story still make zero sense (the Naboo trade dispute, the mystery of the clone army, the weird creepy romance). The one that’s still the most infuriating is that Obi-wan sees both the clones and the droid plant in the space of like a day, and doesn’t immediately see the conspiracy to create a war. Neither do the Jedi council, they’re all braindead.

I don’t really understand this much. Why would anyone assume that this is a conspiracy to start a war when as far as Obi or the Jedi would have any reason to think they came upon these things by happenstance? What would they see when they have no evidence to conclude it? Especially considering the droid army are just being made and the clones have been being developed for about 10 years. I think there’s room to criticize that the jedi don’t ponder this issue more, considering the connection between Dooku and Jango (though again, they have no evidence that would allow them to conclude specifically a huge amount of stuff there, but I think it’s a flaw that they don’t engage with it), but concluding it must be a conspiracy based on seeing armies I think is a stretch in a way.

I think the romance is weird in a way, but not creepy really. I think this is more a read on Anakin’s facial expressions than anything. I’m a little perplexed. I think Han’s attitude towards Leia is more creepy to me in TESB, and Han’s attitude more childish in how he very pettily reacts to Leia not expressing herself when they have no romantic relationship at that point. Unless the Anakin killing the tuskens is what’s just be referred to here, which, I think has a fair argument, but the bulk of their romance happens before that. And while I think their romance is fairly flawed, I don’t see zero sense.

I also don’t get the Naboo thing not making sense.

The scene where Anakin’s making Padmé feel uncomfortable, and when she tells him to stop he has a weird smirk into a grimace, is pretty creepy. There are multiple scenes at the beginning of Attack of the Clones too where Anakin’s behavior toward and talking about Padmé piss off Padmé, Obi-Wan, and even Jar Jar, even if they all let him off easy. None of this is unintentional. This is how Anakin is meant to come off in Attack of the Clones, and some of it might make some sense given that he’s a hormonal, emotionally unintelligent teenager. But it’s so constant and so extreme, and he has so few redeeming qualities that it’s really baffling why George Lucas wanted to dedicate an entire movie where Anakin is just unbearable. He only barely shows some maturing during the fight with Count Dooku at the end, but he still has to get his ass bailed out by Yoda.

Han and Leia’s romance isn’t great either but it’s playing into older Hollywood romance tropes, whereas Anakin being kind of a creep is the intentional read at least at the beginning of the movie.

Dagenspear said:

Mocata said:
There’s been a lot of talk for many years now about how the prequels are looked at more fondly thanks to nostalgia. Or how they’re better if you’ve seen things the animated shows.

I don’t agree with that in either way. I think TCW only adds a few things that I think the PT didn’t really need to tell it’s story (like the extended info about the clones, though I think the movies could’ve stood to explore their personalities more), mostly. Otherwise I think it’s genericizes Anakin’s character from a troubled tortured person to a more square jawed jockish hero type akin to Han Solo, which some acclaim over the movies portrayal. Even though I think it’s just a more generic take on Anakin’s attitude at the beginning of ROTS.

As far as nostalgia, I’ve seen adults apparently watch the PT for the first time in present day and like them. Have criticisms, yes, but still like them. I dismiss the nostalgia assumptions on that. I think that’s a recycled Plinkett claim that falls apart under much scrutiny.

Huge parts of the story still make zero sense (the Naboo trade dispute, the mystery of the clone army, the weird creepy romance). The one that’s still the most infuriating is that Obi-wan sees both the clones and the droid plant in the space of like a day, and doesn’t immediately see the conspiracy to create a war. Neither do the Jedi council, they’re all braindead.

I don’t really understand this much. Why would anyone assume that this is a conspiracy to start a war when as far as Obi or the Jedi would have any reason to think they came upon these things by happenstance? What would they see when they have no evidence to conclude it? Especially considering the droid army are just being made and the clones have been being developed for about 10 years. I think there’s room to criticize that the jedi don’t ponder this issue more, considering the connection between Dooku and Jango (though again, they have no evidence that would allow them to conclude specifically a huge amount of stuff there, but I think it’s a flaw that they don’t engage with it), but concluding it must be a conspiracy based on seeing armies I think is a stretch in a way.

I think the romance is weird in a way, but not creepy really. I think this is more a read on Anakin’s facial expressions than anything. I’m a little perplexed. I think Han’s attitude towards Leia is more creepy to me in TESB, and Han’s attitude more childish in how he very pettily reacts to Leia not expressing herself when they have no romantic relationship at that point. Unless the Anakin killing the tuskens is what’s just be referred to here, which, I think has a fair argument, but the bulk of their romance happens before that. And while I think their romance is fairly flawed, I don’t see zero sense.

I also don’t get the Naboo thing not making sense.

It’s nostalgia.

The evidence is that Jango Fett was hired to kill Padme and is also the template for the clone army, tries to kill Obi Wan, and goes directly from Kamino to the secret droid factory headquarters on Geonosis. This is brought up to Obi Wan and he very stupidly goes “no there appears to be no motive” and then Yoda says “do not assume anything,” and then they never talk about it again. The idea that a Jedi master goes out of their way to pay for a gigantic army of millions of troops and ships, in secret, for an unknown purpose, without telling anyone, and there’s no further investigation into it is just insane. If anyone in the Republic is involved at all in any capacity, which they would have to be to manage hundreds of star destroyers right away, that’s already a conspiracy. Count Dooku straight up tells them everything about Darth Sidious and they don’t even think it’s worthwhile to check. People put this up to the Jedi’s supposed “hubris” but it’s not hubris, it’s that they’re being written as morons. They don’t do the basic kind of stuff you would see in the first 20 minutes of an episode of a police procedural.

Han is very masculine, Anakin isn’t. He’s being a “scoundrel” but Leia is ultimately into it. He’s getting her to more consciously recognize her latent attraction to him. Anakin starts in the friend zone, and openly lusts, whines, complains, discusses sand, commits mass murder, and then somehow at the end of it Padme is deeply in love with him. The facial expressions are just one part of it.

Vladius said:

It’s nostalgia.

You’re basically just making up things here.

The evidence is that Jango Fett was hired to kill Padme and is also the template for the clone army, tries to kill Obi Wan, and goes directly from Kamino to the secret droid factory headquarters on Geonosis. This is brought up to Obi Wan and he very stupidly goes “no there appears to be no motive” and then Yoda says “do not assume anything,” and then they never talk about it again. The idea that a Jedi master goes out of their way to pay for a gigantic army of millions of troops and ships, in secret, for an unknown purpose, without telling anyone, and there’s no further investigation into it is just insane. If anyone in the Republic is involved at all in any capacity, which they would have to be to manage hundreds of star destroyers right away, that’s already a conspiracy. Count Dooku straight up tells them everything about Darth Sidious and they don’t even think it’s worthwhile to check. People put this up to the Jedi’s supposed “hubris” but it’s not hubris, it’s that they’re being written as morons. They don’t do the basic kind of stuff you would see in the first 20 minutes of an episode of a police procedural.

That’s not in the post I responded to. It said seeing the droid army and the clone army in the same day.

And I brought up my criticism about the connection between Dooku and Jango and the Jedi not looking into it further.

Obi-Wan saying there appears to be no motive and Yoda saying to assume nothing happens before geonosis and is about the cloners involvement in the assassination on Padme.

Manage hundreds of star destroyers right away? What does that have to do with anything? Where’s it said anyone is managing star destroyers?

The Jedi outright talk about this, that they don’t trust Dooku’s word, seeing it as a way to creating mistrust and they also agree to keep an eye on the Senate after this. Criticize that we don’t see it much, to me, yeah, but you seem to suggest that it’s not there.

Han is very masculine, Anakin isn’t. He’s being a “scoundrel” but Leia is ultimately into it. He’s getting her to more consciously recognize her latent attraction to him. Anakin starts in the friend zone, and openly lusts, whines, complains, discusses sand, commits mass murder, and then somehow at the end of it Padme is deeply in love with him. The facial expressions are just one part of it.

You basically just said nothing about the Han thing. Han openly lusts, whines, complains. Like I said before, the tuskens are after the mass bulk of the romance has happened. I can see that, but that’s not what nearly all of their romance building is about.

SparkySywer said:

The scene where Anakin’s making Padmé feel uncomfortable, and when she tells him to stop he has a weird smirk into a grimace, is pretty creepy. There are multiple scenes at the beginning of Attack of the Clones too where Anakin’s behavior toward and talking about Padmé piss off Padmé, Obi-Wan, and even Jar Jar, even if they all let him off easy. None of this is unintentional. This is how Anakin is meant to come off in Attack of the Clones, and some of it might make some sense given that he’s a hormonal, emotionally unintelligent teenager. But it’s so constant and so extreme, and he has so few redeeming qualities that it’s really baffling why George Lucas wanted to dedicate an entire movie where Anakin is just unbearable. He only barely shows some maturing during the fight with Count Dooku at the end, but he still has to get his ass bailed out by Yoda.

Like I said, facial feature thing to me. Only Obi-Wan does he make Obi annoyed that much, I think.

In the movie, there’s only 2 moments do they have any conflict (the look makes me uncomfortable moment, and when he gets uppity about her calling him not a Jedi but a padawan) about it, the rest are either amicable or romance based, barring the scene where they butt heads about whether or not they rescue Obi.

I have little issue with Anakin’s conflicting emotional state in this movie, as I prefer him to be someone in turmoil moreso, based on his story in the movie and the trajectory of his character.

Han and Leia’s romance isn’t great either but it’s playing into older Hollywood romance tropes, whereas Anakin being kind of a creep is the intentional read at least at the beginning of the movie.

How is it being hollywood romance tropes make it better, writing wise?

Not really. Maybe those are the only two scenes where they’re openly conflicting with each other, but in four out of five of the scenes they have together before they’re suddenly making out, Anakin’s being an asshole and pissing her off. I don’t know if that’s what you mean by a “facial feature thing”, but the emotions the actors are expressing convey the intended effect of the scene. Rewatch their first scene together in the movie. It cuts in reaction shots from Padmé, Captain Typho, and Jar Jar (!!) while Obi-Wan is spanking him to communicate to us that Anakin is making the whole room uncomfortable and being a huge dick. The scene uses Jar Jar to tell us to look down on Anakin’s behavior. What does she see in him?

SparkySywer said:

Not really. Maybe those are the only two scenes where they’re openly conflicting with each other, but in four out of five of the scenes they have together before they’re suddenly making out, Anakin’s being an asshole and pissing her off. I don’t know if that’s what you mean by a “facial feature thing”, but the emotions the actors are expressing convey the intended effect of the scene. Rewatch their first scene together in the movie. It cuts in reaction shots from Padmé, Captain Typho, and Jar Jar (!!) while Obi-Wan is spanking him to communicate to us that Anakin is making the whole room uncomfortable and being a huge dick. The scene uses Jar Jar to tell us to look down on Anakin’s behavior. What does she see in him?

Give me those scenes where he’s actively making her mad and she gets mad. What are they? Because I remember:

Scene where they meet, which isn’t him trying to make her mad, nor does she get mad.

Scene where he back talks Obi, which she doesn’t get mad at.

The you’re making me uncomfortable scene, which even in that scene is just Anakin and her talking until he gives her that look.

Then they exchange a little moment and joke about having R2.

They talk in transport about the Jedi rules. I think Anakin maybe is forward in this scene and she does have a tentative look, but no anger.

Then them walking through Naboo, a fairly amicable scene to me.

Then the scene where he gets mad about her saying he’s not a Jedi.

Then the sand and kiss scene.

Most of those moments between them aren’t angry at all, to me. That’s not even counting the scenes after that, where they talk near the waterfall or the scene and while they’re eating. Even the haunted by the kiss scene isn’t really about anger. Then there’s the tattooine stuff, which is all fairly amicable I think.

Dagenspear said:

Vladius said:

It’s nostalgia.

You’re basically just making up things here.

The evidence is that Jango Fett was hired to kill Padme and is also the template for the clone army, tries to kill Obi Wan, and goes directly from Kamino to the secret droid factory headquarters on Geonosis. This is brought up to Obi Wan and he very stupidly goes “no there appears to be no motive” and then Yoda says “do not assume anything,” and then they never talk about it again. The idea that a Jedi master goes out of their way to pay for a gigantic army of millions of troops and ships, in secret, for an unknown purpose, without telling anyone, and there’s no further investigation into it is just insane. If anyone in the Republic is involved at all in any capacity, which they would have to be to manage hundreds of star destroyers right away, that’s already a conspiracy. Count Dooku straight up tells them everything about Darth Sidious and they don’t even think it’s worthwhile to check. People put this up to the Jedi’s supposed “hubris” but it’s not hubris, it’s that they’re being written as morons. They don’t do the basic kind of stuff you would see in the first 20 minutes of an episode of a police procedural.

That’s not in the post I responded to. It said seeing the droid army and the clone army in the same day.

And I brought up my criticism about the connection between Dooku and Jango and the Jedi not looking into it further.

Obi-Wan saying there appears to be no motive and Yoda saying to assume nothing happens before geonosis and is about the cloners involvement in the assassination on Padme.

Manage hundreds of star destroyers right away? What does that have to do with anything? Where’s it said anyone is managing star destroyers?

The Jedi outright talk about this, that they don’t trust Dooku’s word, seeing it as a way to creating mistrust and they also agree to keep an eye on the Senate after this. Criticize that we don’t see it much, to me, yeah, but you seem to suggest that it’s not there.

Han is very masculine, Anakin isn’t. He’s being a “scoundrel” but Leia is ultimately into it. He’s getting her to more consciously recognize her latent attraction to him. Anakin starts in the friend zone, and openly lusts, whines, complains, discusses sand, commits mass murder, and then somehow at the end of it Padme is deeply in love with him. The facial expressions are just one part of it.

You basically just said nothing about the Han thing. Han openly lusts, whines, complains. Like I said before, the tuskens are after the mass bulk of the romance has happened. I can see that, but that’s not what nearly all of their romance building is about.

For nostalgia - what you said before was that it was some Plinkett thing. What Plinkett was talking about at the time (2012 apparently) was original trilogy fans who went into the prequels excited about it and willing to overlook any problems because they were already fans. That was true to some extent. What we’re talking about today with nostalgia is largely younger millennials and Gen Z kids who watched the prequels as children, played prequel-themed video games, watched The Clone Wars on Cartoon Network, and so on. You might be in this demographic, I don’t know. In any case, they don’t really understand the context or why there was so much backlash, they just watch a video about how people were mean to Jake Lloyd and Ahmed Best and George Lucas and think that that means the original fans were just big meanies, and not that there were serious quality issues with the script and production that caused genuine disappointment. They were too young to think about it, and today refuse to engage with it critically beyond video essays about how the prequels were underrated. That’s what we mean by nostalgia.

The cloners in that scenario are affiliated with Jango Fett, who they know definitely tried to kill Padme. It’s an obvious connection to make and not literally just about the Kaminoans. The connection is confirmed when Jango is working directly for Dooku. All the actions line up. Trying to kill the most prominent public figure arguing against war, setting up an army in secret, then setting up another army in secret to fight that army. It’s not rocket science. Even without the Separatists, it makes sense for someone plotting a war to raise an army and kill the person trying to oppose an army.

Do you understand how a military works? It requires serious coordination between thousands or tens of thousands of people. The clones have to be put under some kind of command structure. Yoda didn’t do all that himself in 10 minutes before they all flew to Geonosis. There were star destroyers and troop carriers and tanks all ready to go, so either those were built on Kamino as well (unlikely, we don’t see that at all and it’s a huge ocean) or someone in the Republic had them ready to go and kept it secret. There would have to be a pretty decent sized paper trail to investigate, and they just don’t seem to care.

Yes I know Yoda says that. It’s like Dooku was doing some goofy reverse psychology thing. “If I tell them everything that’s going on, they won’t believe me and they’ll think the opposite!” And they just fall for it because they’re written as morons. They don’t do anything about the senate.

What Han does is completely different from Anakin and apparently you didn’t read what I said. Anakin complains about his personal life, tells her that he’s obsessed with her, leers at her in a way that makes her uncomfortable, says that she’s in his soul tormenting him, etc. It’s weird and no real woman would ever be into that unless she had such an extreme physical attraction that she didn’t care. Maybe that’s all it was. Han is being cocky and brash and aggressive, but he isn’t telling Leia he’s obsessed with her or having dreams about her or putting her on a pedestal. When he’s complaining and yelling he’s teasing her. He impresses her with genuine confidence, competence, and skill. He’s playing the “bad boy” persona, which is a cliche but it’s absolutely true and not just a Hollywood thing. Anakin is the weirdo “nice guy.”

Vladius said:

For nostalgia - what you said before was that it was some Plinkett thing. What Plinkett was talking about at the time (2012 apparently) was original trilogy fans who went into the prequels excited about it and willing to overlook any problems because they were already fans. That was true to some extent. What we’re talking about today with nostalgia is largely younger millennials and Gen Z kids who watched the prequels as children, played prequel-themed video games, watched The Clone Wars on Cartoon Network, and so on. You might be in this demographic, I don’t know. In any case, they don’t really understand the context or why there was so much backlash, they just watch a video about how people were mean to Jake Lloyd and Ahmed Best and George Lucas and think that that means the original fans were just big meanies, and not that there were serious quality issues with the script and production that caused genuine disappointment. They were too young to think about it, and today refuse to engage with it critically beyond video essays about how the prequels were underrated. That’s what we mean by nostalgia.

I’m saying that’s used even now and it falls apart as a claim under scrutiny, as it’s one proven false based on people who watch the PT movies, for the first time in present day apparently and like them. TCW addition has nothing to do with what I said.

The context is only in the emotions of fans at the time. Everything in the movies, for those that watch them now, is still there. How actors were treated also has no relevance to what I said, because it means nothing to whether or not they like the movie.

The cloners in that scenario are affiliated with Jango Fett, who they know definitely tried to kill Padme. It’s an obvious connection to make and not literally just about the Kaminoans. The connection is confirmed when Jango is working directly for Dooku. All the actions line up. Trying to kill the most prominent public figure arguing against war, setting up an army in secret, then setting up another army in secret to fight that army. It’s not rocket science. Even without the Separatists, it makes sense for someone plotting a war to raise an army and kill the person trying to oppose an army.

The scene is about the cloners. That’s what they ask Obi about, if they were behind it and Obi replies about them having no motive. You said Obi stupidly says that there appears to be no motive to Yoda about the cloners. How is that stupid of him in that scene?

As for everything else, I criticized that not being explored. But that doesn’t change that you expect them to assume it’s fact without any evidence. I think that this could’ve been done better and it’s a weak writing thing in the movie, but it doesn’t do much, as the Jedi can’t do anything about it even if the movie weighed in on it more, as they have no proof, just assumptions.

Do you understand how a military works? It requires serious coordination between thousands or tens of thousands of people. The clones have to be put under some kind of command structure. Yoda didn’t do all that himself in 10 minutes before they all flew to Geonosis. There were star destroyers and troop carriers and tanks all ready to go, so either those were built on Kamino as well (unlikely, we don’t see that at all and it’s a huge ocean) or someone in the Republic had them ready to go and kept it secret. There would have to be a pretty decent sized paper trail to investigate, and they just don’t seem to care.

I always thought that everything the clones had were kaminoan built. It’s a huge facility, that I think we certainly don’t see all of. They get their armors and weapons there. I don’t see why I shouldn’t have the perspective the ships were from there too.

Yes I know Yoda says that. It’s like Dooku was doing some goofy reverse psychology thing. “If I tell them everything that’s going on, they won’t believe me and they’ll think the opposite!” And they just fall for it because they’re written as morons. They don’t do anything about the senate.

They said they would keep a close eye on the senate. That doesn’t make it so they’d do anything, especially if nothing particularly happens in the senate for them to do anything about. When something does happen, like Palpatine being given more emergency powers and Palpatine putting Anakin on the council as his representative in the movies, the Jedi do start to do stuff. Like I said, I don’t take real issue with criticizing that we don’t see it, really, but the Jedi do still have some engagement in the situation.

What Han does is completely different from Anakin and apparently you didn’t read what I said. Anakin complains about his personal life, tells her that he’s obsessed with her, leers at her in a way that makes her uncomfortable, says that she’s in his soul tormenting him, etc. It’s weird and no real woman would ever be into that unless she had such an extreme physical attraction that she didn’t care. Maybe that’s all it was. Han is being cocky and brash and aggressive, but he isn’t telling Leia he’s obsessed with her or having dreams about her or putting her on a pedestal. When he’s complaining and yelling he’s teasing her. He impresses her with genuine confidence, competence, and skill. He’s playing the “bad boy” persona, which is a cliche but it’s absolutely true and not just a Hollywood thing. Anakin is the weirdo “nice guy.”

I read it and I think it’s bunk. Han leers, complains about Leia not showing her feelings to him, is fairly pervy. As if that’s not weird. No, I think Han complaining and yelling isn’t teasing her in that scene. He’s depicted as being petty and venting, to me. The teasing part comes later and is where the pervy attitude starts.

All I think you’re using is weak generic concepts, bad boy, nice guy. It means nothing. I criticize the writing of Anakin and Padme’s relationship, but thin, to me, terms like creepy or weird being used suggesting it somehow is worse than Han means nothing to me.

What is a criticism of it, to me, is that Han and Leia I think are stronger written, in structure, because Han and Leia in ANH were more like peers and when we see them in TESB they are heavily implied to have worked together for a time, which I think allows a lot of the heavy lifting of the relationship to already be done. Anakin and Padme don’t get that writing allowance. I can criticize Han and Leia, in that we barely actually explore Leia’s side of this issue and the tension angle is fairly cheap to me, along with Han’s whiny attitude, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s stronger written. I’m just against the thin, to me, complaints about Anakin being called creepy.

Dagenspear said:

Vladius said:

For nostalgia - what you said before was that it was some Plinkett thing. What Plinkett was talking about at the time (2012 apparently) was original trilogy fans who went into the prequels excited about it and willing to overlook any problems because they were already fans. That was true to some extent. What we’re talking about today with nostalgia is largely younger millennials and Gen Z kids who watched the prequels as children, played prequel-themed video games, watched The Clone Wars on Cartoon Network, and so on. You might be in this demographic, I don’t know. In any case, they don’t really understand the context or why there was so much backlash, they just watch a video about how people were mean to Jake Lloyd and Ahmed Best and George Lucas and think that that means the original fans were just big meanies, and not that there were serious quality issues with the script and production that caused genuine disappointment. They were too young to think about it, and today refuse to engage with it critically beyond video essays about how the prequels were underrated. That’s what we mean by nostalgia.

I’m saying that’s used even now and it falls apart as a claim under scrutiny, as it’s one proven false based on people who watch the PT movies, for the first time in present day apparently and like them. TCW addition has nothing to do with what I said.

The context is only in the emotions of fans at the time. Everything in the movies, for those that watch them now, is still there. How actors were treated also has no relevance to what I said, because it means nothing to whether or not they like the movie.

The cloners in that scenario are affiliated with Jango Fett, who they know definitely tried to kill Padme. It’s an obvious connection to make and not literally just about the Kaminoans. The connection is confirmed when Jango is working directly for Dooku. All the actions line up. Trying to kill the most prominent public figure arguing against war, setting up an army in secret, then setting up another army in secret to fight that army. It’s not rocket science. Even without the Separatists, it makes sense for someone plotting a war to raise an army and kill the person trying to oppose an army.

The scene is about the cloners. That’s what they ask Obi about, if they were behind it and Obi replies about them having no motive. You said Obi stupidly says that there appears to be no motive to Yoda about the cloners. How is that stupid of him in that scene?

As for everything else, I criticized that not being explored. But that doesn’t change that you expect them to assume it’s fact without any evidence. I think that this could’ve been done better and it’s a weak writing thing in the movie, but it doesn’t do much, as the Jedi can’t do anything about it even if the movie weighed in on it more, as they have no proof, just assumptions.

Do you understand how a military works? It requires serious coordination between thousands or tens of thousands of people. The clones have to be put under some kind of command structure. Yoda didn’t do all that himself in 10 minutes before they all flew to Geonosis. There were star destroyers and troop carriers and tanks all ready to go, so either those were built on Kamino as well (unlikely, we don’t see that at all and it’s a huge ocean) or someone in the Republic had them ready to go and kept it secret. There would have to be a pretty decent sized paper trail to investigate, and they just don’t seem to care.

I always thought that everything the clones had were kaminoan built. It’s a huge facility, that I think we certainly don’t see all of. They get their armors and weapons there. I don’t see why I shouldn’t have the perspective the ships were from there too.

Yes I know Yoda says that. It’s like Dooku was doing some goofy reverse psychology thing. “If I tell them everything that’s going on, they won’t believe me and they’ll think the opposite!” And they just fall for it because they’re written as morons. They don’t do anything about the senate.

They said they would keep a close eye on the senate. That doesn’t make it so they’d do anything, especially if nothing particularly happens in the senate for them to do anything about. When something does happen, like Palpatine being given more emergency powers and Palpatine putting Anakin on the council as his representative in the movies, the Jedi do start to do stuff. Like I said, I don’t take real issue with criticizing that we don’t see it, really, but the Jedi do still have some engagement in the situation.

What Han does is completely different from Anakin and apparently you didn’t read what I said. Anakin complains about his personal life, tells her that he’s obsessed with her, leers at her in a way that makes her uncomfortable, says that she’s in his soul tormenting him, etc. It’s weird and no real woman would ever be into that unless she had such an extreme physical attraction that she didn’t care. Maybe that’s all it was. Han is being cocky and brash and aggressive, but he isn’t telling Leia he’s obsessed with her or having dreams about her or putting her on a pedestal. When he’s complaining and yelling he’s teasing her. He impresses her with genuine confidence, competence, and skill. He’s playing the “bad boy” persona, which is a cliche but it’s absolutely true and not just a Hollywood thing. Anakin is the weirdo “nice guy.”

I read it and I think it’s bunk. Han leers, complains about Leia not showing her feelings to him, is fairly pervy. As if that’s not weird. No, I think Han complaining and yelling isn’t teasing her in that scene. He’s depicted as being petty and venting, to me. The teasing part comes later and is where the pervy attitude starts.

All I think you’re using is weak generic concepts, bad boy, nice guy. It means nothing. I criticize the writing of Anakin and Padme’s relationship, but thin, to me, terms like creepy or weird being used suggesting it somehow is worse than Han means nothing to me.

What is a criticism of it, to me, is that Han and Leia I think are stronger written, in structure, because Han and Leia in ANH were more like peers and when we see them in TESB they are heavily implied to have worked together for a time, which I think allows a lot of the heavy lifting of the relationship to already be done. Anakin and Padme don’t get that writing allowance. I can criticize Han and Leia, in that we barely actually explore Leia’s side of this issue and the tension angle is fairly cheap to me, along with Han’s whiny attitude, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s stronger written. I’m just against the thin, to me, complaints about Anakin being called creepy.

I’m not talking about your personal anecdotes or you personally, I’m talking about a general trend. I have my own anecdote where I showed family members all six movies for the first time in release order, and they both liked the original trilogy more, and had basically all the same criticisms people had of the prequels when they first came out, with the notable exception that they loved Jar Jar. If there are people who like them after seeing them for the first time, that doesn’t say how much they like them, why they like them, or whether they have any taste in movies. Some people just like anything that has a lot of spectacle.

I looked it up again and this is the direct quote:
“Mace: Do you think these cloners are involved in the plot to assassinate Senator Amidala?
Obi-Wan: No, Master, there appears to be no motive.
Yoda: Do not assume anything, Obi-Wan. Clear, your mind must be, if you are to discover the real villains behind this plot.”

They easily count as “involved in the plot”, and you can put together that assassinating an anti-war figure while creating an army seems like a pretty clear motive. The reason for starting a war would be more ambiguous (you might suspect it’s arms dealers for example), but starting a war is clearly what the “real villains” want, and the cloners are clearly “involved” with that. I guess if you’re taking it strictly literally then all the Kaminoans themselves want is money, yes, but they’re still a part of the plot.

The Jedi could do something about it and find proof, but they never do. Even in EU material and TCW, they don’t even try, maybe because it would be too obvious and make the plot unravel. There were parts in Revenge of the Sith where they discuss who Sifo Dyas was and what exactly happened, but they were cut for time. It just seems like it should be a much bigger priority and something they could check on.

For the Han Solo/Anakin stuff I have to conclude that you don’t have very much real life experience with certain social situations and dynamics. The stereotypes are based on real things that happen, which is why one strikes people as plausible and engaging and the other strikes people as uncomfortable and bizarre. This even goes across cultural boundaries - I was reading a manga from the 2000s the other day where the author joked about how there was no way Padme would fall for Anakin. There’s modern day criticism that Han is being too aggressive in the kissing scene on the Falcon, but it’s not because the characters are written or portrayed unrealistically, it’s more about the cultural messaging it has. Their bickering, banter, back and forth snipping, etc. are a kind of flirting.

Vladius said:

I’m not talking about your personal anecdotes or you personally, I’m talking about a general trend. I have my own anecdote where I showed family members all six movies for the first time in release order, and they both liked the original trilogy more, and had basically all the same criticisms people had of the prequels when they first came out, with the notable exception that they loved Jar Jar. If there are people who like them after seeing them for the first time, that doesn’t say how much they like them, why they like them, or whether they have any taste in movies. Some people just like anything that has a lot of spectacle.

Not speaking personally either. This is a thing that has happened. People watch these movies, reaction videos are out there. It’s public.

I didn’t talk about people liking the OT better or not. I’m not doing a tit for that about the adoration of one over the other.

Or maybe, instead of some people liking anything that has a lot of spectacle, maybe some fans who watched them over-reacted to their issues and resort to dismissing others and their tastes as “interest in spectacle”, rather than having the perception that their own opinion isn’t the only way to view the movies.

I looked it up again and this is the direct quote:
“Mace: Do you think these cloners are involved in the plot to assassinate Senator Amidala?
Obi-Wan: No, Master, there appears to be no motive.
Yoda: Do not assume anything, Obi-Wan. Clear, your mind must be, if you are to discover the real villains behind this plot.”

They easily count as “involved in the plot”, and you can put together that assassinating an anti-war figure while creating an army seems like a pretty clear motive. The reason for starting a war would be more ambiguous (you might suspect it’s arms dealers for example), but starting a war is clearly what the “real villains” want, and the cloners are clearly “involved” with that. I guess if you’re taking it strictly literally then all the Kaminoans themselves want is money, yes, but they’re still a part of the plot.

I think you’re reading into the line, when I think it means if they’re the ones who did or have a hand in it. Either way, it doesn’t effect anything, as they have no motive, because in the movies it’s never developed they have any knowledge on it. Criticize it as a point if you want, but if they investigated they’d have nothing.

The Jedi could do something about it and find proof, but they never do. Even in EU material and TCW, they don’t even try, maybe because it would be too obvious and make the plot unravel. There were parts in Revenge of the Sith where they discuss who Sifo Dyas was and what exactly happened, but they were cut for time. It just seems like it should be a much bigger priority and something they could check on.

I pointed out that I criticize that. But I don’t agree that they could simply find proof all by itself.

For the Han Solo/Anakin stuff I have to conclude that you don’t have very much real life experience with certain social situations and dynamics. The stereotypes are based on real things that happen, which is why one strikes people as plausible and engaging and the other strikes people as uncomfortable and bizarre. This even goes across cultural boundaries - I was reading a manga from the 2000s the other day where the author joked about how there was no way Padme would fall for Anakin. There’s modern day criticism that Han is being too aggressive in the kissing scene on the Falcon, but it’s not because the characters are written or portrayed unrealistically, it’s more about the cultural messaging it has. Their bickering, banter, back and forth snipping, etc. are a kind of flirting.

Some fans try to belittle others just because someone disagrees with them about these movies, don’t they? Even though I said that I think similarly that Han and Leia is stronger written, you take such issue with it. Stereotypes mean nothing to this, neither does beleivability. Some women/men become obsessed with serial killers and like reylo in real life (and like Anakin and Padme as well as a romance), this means nothing to writing quality of the relationship in the movie, which I think similarly in that it was weaker written than the relationship in TESB. It doesn’t matter to me, as I criticized characters coming off as creepy and whiny and complaining, not about realism.

Dagenspear said:

SparkySywer said:

Not really. Maybe those are the only two scenes where they’re openly conflicting with each other, but in four out of five of the scenes they have together before they’re suddenly making out, Anakin’s being an asshole and pissing her off. I don’t know if that’s what you mean by a “facial feature thing”, but the emotions the actors are expressing convey the intended effect of the scene. Rewatch their first scene together in the movie. It cuts in reaction shots from Padmé, Captain Typho, and Jar Jar (!!) while Obi-Wan is spanking him to communicate to us that Anakin is making the whole room uncomfortable and being a huge dick. The scene uses Jar Jar to tell us to look down on Anakin’s behavior. What does she see in him?

Give me those scenes where he’s actively making her mad and she gets mad. What are they? Because I remember:

…

Most of those moments between them aren’t angry at all, to me. That’s not even counting the scenes after that, where they talk near the waterfall or the scene and while they’re eating. Even the haunted by the kiss scene isn’t really about anger. Then there’s the tattooine stuff, which is all fairly amicable I think.

What would change your mind? What counts as “actively making her mad”? I think the first scene they have together (starting when they meet, ending when Padmé “retires”) is pretty damning, and that’s why I brought it up like three or four times. Clearly you don’t. What do you think is going through these characters’ minds in these scenes if not a really negative perception of Anakin? Why did George Lucas cut to these reaction shots of everyone in the room being uncomfortable? What was he trying to communicate?

When Anakin makes an inappropriate advance on Padmé within seconds of meeting her for the first time since he was nine, why does she react the way she does? What’s going through her head? And what does her response mean?

It would be one thing if George Lucas was just not very socially gifted and accidentally wrote Anakin in a way that came off as creepy, and an asshole. But the movie seems to intentionally draw attention to it. It’s just baffling. What do you think she sees in him?

Then them walking through Naboo, a fairly amicable scene to me.

I’ll give you this one, I forgot about that scene.

SparkySywer said:

What would change your mind? What counts as “actively making her mad”? I think the first scene they have together (starting when they meet, ending when Padmé “retires”) is pretty damning, and that’s why I brought it up like three or four times. Clearly you don’t. What do you think is going through these characters’ minds in these scenes if not a really negative perception of Anakin? Why did George Lucas cut to these reaction shots of everyone in the room being uncomfortable? What was he trying to communicate?

When Anakin makes an inappropriate advance on Padmé within seconds of meeting her for the first time since he was nine, why does she react the way she does? What’s going through her head? And what does her response mean?

It would be one thing if George Lucas was just not very socially gifted and accidentally wrote Anakin in a way that came off as creepy, and an asshole. But the movie seems to intentionally draw attention to it. It’s just baffling. What do you think she sees in him?

Him trying to upset her and her getting mad is what I would consider that. Anakin is neither trying to upset her and neither do I think she gets mad at him in their first scene. He’s just being overly awkward. Your words on how you describe the situation is changing, to me. You said it makes Padme mad, now you’re bringing up the idea of a negative perception of Anakin. I don’t think Padme is mad at Anakin at all in that scene. Awkward, yes, but mad? And I don’t think he’s being a jerk to her in that scene either. A jerk to Obi, yeah, but not her and I don’t think she gets mad at him for it.

I think the term “advance” is a bit much. He over shares his feelings and then tries to correct it as a light moment of banter, to me, ‘for a senator I mean’. I see her response as a light awkwardness, not being mad at him. If you think she should feel a different way, I think that’s your opinion and you have your God given free will to have it, but I’m not sure I think the same really.

I debate the notion of being creepy to that degree. I think he has scenes where he could come off as weird or such, but I don’t see it as that creepy that much.

I’m not defending how the relationship dynamics unfold. I said to someone else above I think the writing isn’t that strong, to me. But my main criticisms aren’t Anakin acts creepy.

I’ll give you this one, I forgot about that scene.

I think the majority of their scenes are mostly amicable, until Anakin overly shares and presses things into awkwardness or weird. I think some kind of creepiness could be there, but I don’t see it as that huge of a deal. To me, it’s all awkward dialogue and romance building issues. I think the movie is put in a position to build their entire romance from scratch, based on TPM making them not peers (this isn’t a criticism of that choice, more an observation, from my perspective, as I think Anakin’s age works more for nearly every other relationship he has, except Padme), and on top of that I think it makes it so the bulk of their relationship bonding happens within the movie to get them to being in love at the end.

Compared to Han and Leia, I think it’s weaker written in dynamics and structure, where Han and Leia’s bonding in ANH occurs with them as closer to peers in spite of their overall age difference, and in TESB it’s suggested their relationship bonding has continued in-between movies, which I think takes the bonding writing pressure off of their relationship. I have criticisms about how they’re relationship is written, but I still think it’s written overall stronger.

Spartacus01 said:

For me, there’s only one moment in Attack of the Clones where Anakin comes across as genuinely creepy. It’s the scene where Padmé tells him that she feels uncomfortable when he looks at her in a certain way. As she’s leaving, Anakin turns to look at her and says, “Sorry, my lady,” while giving her an almost predatory look.

That’s the only point in the whole movie where I feel like his behavior crosses the line from awkward to actually creepy. In the rest of the film, yes, he’s kind of intense and says some weird things, but it mostly just feels cringey, not threatening. However, to be fair, I don’t think that scene was written or directed to come across that way. I doubt George Lucas or Hayden Christensen meant for Anakin’s look to feel predatory. I think they were aiming for a flirtatious or maybe even a little bit teasing look, but the execution didn’t quite work.

I think a big part of why Anakin’s look feels so off comes down to Hayden’s facial features. He has very Nordic traits: blue eyes, high cheekbones, fair skin, etc. And I’ve noticed that people with that kind of facial structure can sometimes come across as unsettling or even creepy when they try to pull off charming or smug expressions. It’s not about what they’re trying to communicate; it’s just how those facial features translate certain expressions. What’s meant to look confident or seductive can easily come off as cold or unsettling instead. I’ve seen it happen plenty of times in real life too.

So I don’t think the problem is in the acting or the directing. It’s more of a visual mismatch between intention and result. The moment was probably supposed to feel playful or a bit bold, but because of how Hayden’s face registers that particular expression, it ends up giving a totally different vibe.

I mostly think similarly. I was kinda confused by the presentation by some on here as Anakin being creepy overall, instead of just cringy, which I don’t not think similarly on. I can see cringy. It’s a criticism I have on the movie and some scenes in it as well.