What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion. — Page 23

I read the screenplay for ROTS, or at least the one that came with a “The Art Of” book in 2005. At the time I thought it wasn’t so bad. Probably because I could imagine it with less cringe and not so many weird performances.

The novelization is spectacular at least if a bit overrated. I’m saying that a diehard fan of Stover. After a while everyone tells you to read a tie in book, acts like it the best thing since sliced bread. Then you read it and you go Meh like Plagueis from Luceno.

Mocata said:
There’s been a lot of talk for many years now about how the prequels are looked at more fondly thanks to nostalgia. Or how they’re better if you’ve seen things the animated shows.

I don’t agree with that in either way. I think TCW only adds a few things that I think the PT didn’t really need to tell it’s story (like the extended info about the clones, though I think the movies could’ve stood to explore their personalities more), mostly. Otherwise I think it’s genericizes Anakin’s character from a troubled tortured person to a more square jawed jockish hero type akin to Han Solo, which some acclaim over the movies portrayal. Even though I think it’s just a more generic take on Anakin’s attitude at the beginning of ROTS.

As far as nostalgia, I’ve seen adults apparently watch the PT for the first time in present day and like them. Have criticisms, yes, but still like them. I dismiss the nostalgia assumptions on that. I think that’s a recycled Plinkett claim that falls apart under much scrutiny.

Huge parts of the story still make zero sense (the Naboo trade dispute, the mystery of the clone army, the weird creepy romance). The one that’s still the most infuriating is that Obi-wan sees both the clones and the droid plant in the space of like a day, and doesn’t immediately see the conspiracy to create a war. Neither do the Jedi council, they’re all braindead.

I don’t really understand this much. Why would anyone assume that this is a conspiracy to start a war when as far as Obi or the Jedi would have any reason to think they came upon these things by happenstance? What would they see when they have no evidence to conclude it? Especially considering the droid army are just being made and the clones have been being developed for about 10 years. I think there’s room to criticize that the jedi don’t ponder this issue more, considering the connection between Dooku and Jango (though again, they have no evidence that would allow them to conclude specifically a huge amount of stuff there, but I think it’s a flaw that they don’t engage with it), but concluding it must be a conspiracy based on seeing armies I think is a stretch in a way.

I think the romance is weird in a way, but not creepy really. I think this is more a read on Anakin’s facial expressions than anything. I’m a little perplexed. I think Han’s attitude towards Leia is more creepy to me in TESB, and Han’s attitude more childish in how he very pettily reacts to Leia not expressing herself when they have no romantic relationship at that point. Unless the Anakin killing the tuskens is what’s just be referred to here, which, I think has a fair argument, but the bulk of their romance happens before that. And while I think their romance is fairly flawed, I don’t see zero sense.

I also don’t get the Naboo thing not making sense.

The scene where Anakin’s making Padmé feel uncomfortable, and when she tells him to stop he has a weird smirk into a grimace, is pretty creepy. There are multiple scenes at the beginning of Attack of the Clones too where Anakin’s behavior toward and talking about Padmé piss off Padmé, Obi-Wan, and even Jar Jar, even if they all let him off easy. None of this is unintentional. This is how Anakin is meant to come off in Attack of the Clones, and some of it might make some sense given that he’s a hormonal, emotionally unintelligent teenager. But it’s so constant and so extreme, and he has so few redeeming qualities that it’s really baffling why George Lucas wanted to dedicate an entire movie where Anakin is just unbearable. He only barely shows some maturing during the fight with Count Dooku at the end, but he still has to get his ass bailed out by Yoda.

Han and Leia’s romance isn’t great either but it’s playing into older Hollywood romance tropes, whereas Anakin being kind of a creep is the intentional read at least at the beginning of the movie.

Dagenspear said:

Mocata said:
There’s been a lot of talk for many years now about how the prequels are looked at more fondly thanks to nostalgia. Or how they’re better if you’ve seen things the animated shows.

I don’t agree with that in either way. I think TCW only adds a few things that I think the PT didn’t really need to tell it’s story (like the extended info about the clones, though I think the movies could’ve stood to explore their personalities more), mostly. Otherwise I think it’s genericizes Anakin’s character from a troubled tortured person to a more square jawed jockish hero type akin to Han Solo, which some acclaim over the movies portrayal. Even though I think it’s just a more generic take on Anakin’s attitude at the beginning of ROTS.

As far as nostalgia, I’ve seen adults apparently watch the PT for the first time in present day and like them. Have criticisms, yes, but still like them. I dismiss the nostalgia assumptions on that. I think that’s a recycled Plinkett claim that falls apart under much scrutiny.

Huge parts of the story still make zero sense (the Naboo trade dispute, the mystery of the clone army, the weird creepy romance). The one that’s still the most infuriating is that Obi-wan sees both the clones and the droid plant in the space of like a day, and doesn’t immediately see the conspiracy to create a war. Neither do the Jedi council, they’re all braindead.

I don’t really understand this much. Why would anyone assume that this is a conspiracy to start a war when as far as Obi or the Jedi would have any reason to think they came upon these things by happenstance? What would they see when they have no evidence to conclude it? Especially considering the droid army are just being made and the clones have been being developed for about 10 years. I think there’s room to criticize that the jedi don’t ponder this issue more, considering the connection between Dooku and Jango (though again, they have no evidence that would allow them to conclude specifically a huge amount of stuff there, but I think it’s a flaw that they don’t engage with it), but concluding it must be a conspiracy based on seeing armies I think is a stretch in a way.

I think the romance is weird in a way, but not creepy really. I think this is more a read on Anakin’s facial expressions than anything. I’m a little perplexed. I think Han’s attitude towards Leia is more creepy to me in TESB, and Han’s attitude more childish in how he very pettily reacts to Leia not expressing herself when they have no romantic relationship at that point. Unless the Anakin killing the tuskens is what’s just be referred to here, which, I think has a fair argument, but the bulk of their romance happens before that. And while I think their romance is fairly flawed, I don’t see zero sense.

I also don’t get the Naboo thing not making sense.

It’s nostalgia.

The evidence is that Jango Fett was hired to kill Padme and is also the template for the clone army, tries to kill Obi Wan, and goes directly from Kamino to the secret droid factory headquarters on Geonosis. This is brought up to Obi Wan and he very stupidly goes “no there appears to be no motive” and then Yoda says “do not assume anything,” and then they never talk about it again. The idea that a Jedi master goes out of their way to pay for a gigantic army of millions of troops and ships, in secret, for an unknown purpose, without telling anyone, and there’s no further investigation into it is just insane. If anyone in the Republic is involved at all in any capacity, which they would have to be to manage hundreds of star destroyers right away, that’s already a conspiracy. Count Dooku straight up tells them everything about Darth Sidious and they don’t even think it’s worthwhile to check. People put this up to the Jedi’s supposed “hubris” but it’s not hubris, it’s that they’re being written as morons. They don’t do the basic kind of stuff you would see in the first 20 minutes of an episode of a police procedural.

Han is very masculine, Anakin isn’t. He’s being a “scoundrel” but Leia is ultimately into it. He’s getting her to more consciously recognize her latent attraction to him. Anakin starts in the friend zone, and openly lusts, whines, complains, discusses sand, commits mass murder, and then somehow at the end of it Padme is deeply in love with him. The facial expressions are just one part of it.

Vladius said:

It’s nostalgia.

You’re basically just making up things here.

The evidence is that Jango Fett was hired to kill Padme and is also the template for the clone army, tries to kill Obi Wan, and goes directly from Kamino to the secret droid factory headquarters on Geonosis. This is brought up to Obi Wan and he very stupidly goes “no there appears to be no motive” and then Yoda says “do not assume anything,” and then they never talk about it again. The idea that a Jedi master goes out of their way to pay for a gigantic army of millions of troops and ships, in secret, for an unknown purpose, without telling anyone, and there’s no further investigation into it is just insane. If anyone in the Republic is involved at all in any capacity, which they would have to be to manage hundreds of star destroyers right away, that’s already a conspiracy. Count Dooku straight up tells them everything about Darth Sidious and they don’t even think it’s worthwhile to check. People put this up to the Jedi’s supposed “hubris” but it’s not hubris, it’s that they’re being written as morons. They don’t do the basic kind of stuff you would see in the first 20 minutes of an episode of a police procedural.

That’s not in the post I responded to. It said seeing the droid army and the clone army in the same day.

And I brought up my criticism about the connection between Dooku and Jango and the Jedi not looking into it further.

Obi-Wan saying there appears to be no motive and Yoda saying to assume nothing happens before geonosis and is about the cloners involvement in the assassination on Padme.

Manage hundreds of star destroyers right away? What does that have to do with anything? Where’s it said anyone is managing star destroyers?

The Jedi outright talk about this, that they don’t trust Dooku’s word, seeing it as a way to creating mistrust and they also agree to keep an eye on the Senate after this. Criticize that we don’t see it much, to me, yeah, but you seem to suggest that it’s not there.

Han is very masculine, Anakin isn’t. He’s being a “scoundrel” but Leia is ultimately into it. He’s getting her to more consciously recognize her latent attraction to him. Anakin starts in the friend zone, and openly lusts, whines, complains, discusses sand, commits mass murder, and then somehow at the end of it Padme is deeply in love with him. The facial expressions are just one part of it.

You basically just said nothing about the Han thing. Han openly lusts, whines, complains. Like I said before, the tuskens are after the mass bulk of the romance has happened. I can see that, but that’s not what nearly all of their romance building is about.

SparkySywer said:

The scene where Anakin’s making Padmé feel uncomfortable, and when she tells him to stop he has a weird smirk into a grimace, is pretty creepy. There are multiple scenes at the beginning of Attack of the Clones too where Anakin’s behavior toward and talking about Padmé piss off Padmé, Obi-Wan, and even Jar Jar, even if they all let him off easy. None of this is unintentional. This is how Anakin is meant to come off in Attack of the Clones, and some of it might make some sense given that he’s a hormonal, emotionally unintelligent teenager. But it’s so constant and so extreme, and he has so few redeeming qualities that it’s really baffling why George Lucas wanted to dedicate an entire movie where Anakin is just unbearable. He only barely shows some maturing during the fight with Count Dooku at the end, but he still has to get his ass bailed out by Yoda.

Like I said, facial feature thing to me. Only Obi-Wan does he make Obi annoyed that much, I think.

In the movie, there’s only 2 moments do they have any conflict (the look makes me uncomfortable moment, and when he gets uppity about her calling him not a Jedi but a padawan) about it, the rest are either amicable or romance based, barring the scene where they butt heads about whether or not they rescue Obi.

I have little issue with Anakin’s conflicting emotional state in this movie, as I prefer him to be someone in turmoil moreso, based on his story in the movie and the trajectory of his character.

Han and Leia’s romance isn’t great either but it’s playing into older Hollywood romance tropes, whereas Anakin being kind of a creep is the intentional read at least at the beginning of the movie.

How is it being hollywood romance tropes make it better, writing wise?

Not really. Maybe those are the only two scenes where they’re openly conflicting with each other, but in four out of five of the scenes they have together before they’re suddenly making out, Anakin’s being an asshole and pissing her off. I don’t know if that’s what you mean by a “facial feature thing”, but the emotions the actors are expressing convey the intended effect of the scene. Rewatch their first scene together in the movie. It cuts in reaction shots from Padmé, Captain Typho, and Jar Jar (!!) while Obi-Wan is spanking him to communicate to us that Anakin is making the whole room uncomfortable and being a huge dick. The scene uses Jar Jar to tell us to look down on Anakin’s behavior. What does she see in him?

SparkySywer said:

Not really. Maybe those are the only two scenes where they’re openly conflicting with each other, but in four out of five of the scenes they have together before they’re suddenly making out, Anakin’s being an asshole and pissing her off. I don’t know if that’s what you mean by a “facial feature thing”, but the emotions the actors are expressing convey the intended effect of the scene. Rewatch their first scene together in the movie. It cuts in reaction shots from Padmé, Captain Typho, and Jar Jar (!!) while Obi-Wan is spanking him to communicate to us that Anakin is making the whole room uncomfortable and being a huge dick. The scene uses Jar Jar to tell us to look down on Anakin’s behavior. What does she see in him?

Give me those scenes where he’s actively making her mad and she gets mad. What are they? Because I remember:

Scene where they meet, which isn’t him trying to make her mad, nor does she get mad.

Scene where he back talks Obi, which she doesn’t get mad at.

The you’re making me uncomfortable scene, which even in that scene is just Anakin and her talking until he gives her that look.

Then they exchange a little moment and joke about having R2.

They talk in transport about the Jedi rules. I think Anakin maybe is forward in this scene and she does have a tentative look, but no anger.

Then them walking through Naboo, a fairly amicable scene to me.

Then the scene where he gets mad about her saying he’s not a Jedi.

Then the sand and kiss scene.

Most of those moments between them aren’t angry at all, to me. That’s not even counting the scenes after that, where they talk near the waterfall or the scene and while they’re eating. Even the haunted by the kiss scene isn’t really about anger. Then there’s the tattooine stuff, which is all fairly amicable I think.