But the Sequels show us that Rey kind of just “downloads the Force” after her “mind-meld” with Kylo Ren.
There is absolutely no evidence in the movie itself that this is what happens.
I’m pretty sure that comes from the TFA novelization. Or at least it’s strongly implied that’s what happens.
Famously canon novelizations - even if - are still outside the text of a film. I think TLJ makes a lot of assumptions based on what’s intuitive about TFA as a million dollar blockbuster, not its nonexistent subtext, or place inside a then newly refreshed canon. It’s certainly not in deep conversation with [basically] merchandise.
not a Jedi apologist or a Jedi hater but a secret third thing
You don’t have to presume I have a viewpoint about the Force that’s any different from yours, it makes it really hard to take any discussion in a new direction. I agree with you. Now take it from there! I appreciate how fair you’ve been to ‘both’ sides of the divide on this while having your own POV, but it often feels like I’m being lumped in with some other nebulous TLJ defender archetype.
But the Sequels show us that Rey kind of just “downloads the Force” after her “mind-meld” with Kylo Ren.
There is absolutely no evidence in the movie itself that this is what happens.
Well, I thought the “Force download” was the official explanation. But regardless, something happened during Kylo’s mind probe that triggered something in Rey, regardless of whether we call it a “Force download” or just a new awareness of latent powers. After Rey escapes using a mind-trick, Kylo says “She’s just beginning to test her powers. The longer it takes to find her, the more dangerous she becomes.” Since Kylo wasn’t afraid of Rey earlier, it’s clear the mind probe somehow prompted Rey to “[begin to] test her powers”, making Kylo fear that Rey will rapidly acquire new Force abilities in a matter of mere minutes or hours, based on the urgency of this dialogue. Whether we call this a “Force download” or just a prompting that made Rey aware of latent abilities, it’s still functionally a spontaneous learning of new skills that causes Kylo to suddenly believe that Rey will soon become very powerful/dangerous.
NFBisms said:
It’s way more of a stretch than what I laid out as the mechanics of TFA, where Rey has “seen” Star Wars™. There is absolutely a physical aspect and real training involved in mastering the Force - I would never ever dispute this - but Rey has basically gotten the workout class via her idolization of the story. Through what’s already the fable-istic nature of the Force’s mechanics, and learning about Luke, she’s basically gotten the number of reps and sets of exercises she should do, alongside the philosophy quotes that would help her keep routine. Not to mention she’s an athletic scavenger jumping massive gaps and climbing ropes among dangerous wreckage, fending for herself to begin with. Farmboy Luke is raised by a loving family (attachments), doing chores, dusting crops, flying for leisure. He’s apolitical - ambitious to leave but not for meaning or purpose - not like Rey who already looks up to heroes.
Well, the Sequels definitely have a “meta”-dimension baked into them, with the main characters having border-line fourth-wall breaking knowledge about our beloved OT heroes. This border-line fourth wall breaking is one of the only consistent motifs across all 3 Sequel films. In TFA, Rey idolizes the OT heroes. In TLJ, Luke asks (the audience) if he’s really expected to whip out his laser sword and be a hero, and Rey for some reason expects her parents to be famous people. And of course, in Rise of Skywalker, Chewie finally gets a medal, and Yogurt teaches Lone Starr to use the Schwartz. OMG I love Star Warz so hard!!! 🙄
Anyway, I never interpreted the meta-story angle as having explanatory power with regard to Rey’s spontaneous Force abilities. I always assumed the meta-stuff was just J.J. Abrams failing to control himself while writing the script as a Star Wars fan. Regardless, I’m not sure why merely idolizing these legendary characters through cultural osmosis would be sufficient to actually learn how to be a Jedi, any more than idolizing Bruce Lee and watching all his movies would be sufficient to become even a mediocre martial artist. But maybe J.J. Abrams thinks it should be sufficient.
My take is that the writers of Force Awakens basically wrote themselves into a corner. Rey meets Han Solo (not Luke), who takes on the role of the “wise mentor”. Han is a natural match for Rey’s technical savvy and junkyard knowledge, but of course the decision to go with Han leaves Rey with nobody to teach her about the Force. But this is a Star Wars movie and the main character has to learn to use the Force before the movie ends. Due to other story-telling decisions, Luke is unavailable until the very last scene. So how will Rey learn to use the Force? I imagine that J.J. Abrams and friends brainstormed quite a bit over this issue - maybe that’s what Maz Kanata was originally created for. But at some point Abrams gave up and decided to just smother his script in more “vague mystery sauce” like he always does. Perhaps Rey’s spontaneous “awakening” was originally supposed to suggest a deeper mystery about Rey’s origins - a mystery that was immediately abandoned once Rian Johnson took over. Who knows? Regardless, Kylo’s mind probe somehow causes Rey to spontaneously become capable of Jedi mind tricks and other Force powers - things she was apparently not capable of doing before the mind probe.
Also, while this is neither here nor there, I find it interesting that Rey’s climactic action scene in The Force Awakens involves a lightsaber battle rather than a space battle. Generally in the first film of a Star Wars trilogy the main character isn’t yet experienced enough for lightsaber combat, but has enough natural piloting talent to help blow up an enemy space station. Rey’s piloting skills are well established, but she never gets to use them in a climactic space battle. This is a strange writing decision, necessitating the fast-tracking of Rey’s Force abilities so she can plausibly stand a chance against Kylo in a climactic lightsaber duel. This wouldn’t be necessary if Abrams allowed Rey to follow in the footsteps of Luke and Anakin, making her mark as a fighter-pilot during the ending battle. I mean, TFA is already an overly-derivative ANH clone, yet when the story actually calls for some poetic symmetry, Abrams suddenly goes off in another direction. Perhaps he thought that Rey blowing up Starkiller Base would just cross the line, becoming way too much of an obvious ANH clone. I mean even J.J. Abrams has limits. Thus, he ended up further writing himself into more corners.
NFBisms said:
This take on the Force is rejected by the movie. It’s a [popular] expectation (gray Jedi, anyone?), in the same vein as EU Luke, that is disposed of to reinforce the Original Trilogy. This where it gets so messy in reception, because Rian’s engagement with Star Wars, like everyone’s, is personal and varied and doesn’t fit into a box.
I agree there’s a lot of messiness, but I’m not sure the “light/dark balance” idea is necessarily disposed of entirely. After Kylo kills Snoke, Rey rejects Kylo’s offer and then she resets back to factory default “good Jedi” settings at the end. But this doesn’t necessarily dispose of the general idea that, on a cosmic level, the Force automatically generates equally matched light-side/dark-side Force users, as Snoke claims, to maintain some kind of cosmic balance. The “light/dark balance” thing is also suggested when Luke says “Balance… powerful light, powerful darkness” when referring to the vision cave under the island. Of course, this never amounts to anything more than a half-baked throw-away idea that is of course dropped in the next movie.
NFBisms said:
He doesn’t do an idealized, super Luke because like me he saw that Luke literally didn’t beat the Emperor with his powers, he bet on his dad and his friends. The type of guy who literally did take himself out of a picture so that he wouldn’t endanger the mission on Endor. That’s the interpretation. You don’t have to agree with it or how it was done, but it emphasizes Luke for who he was, not as a trained Jedi, but a son. A farmboy in over his head, just a guy, like you or me. That’s why he resonated [to Rian, to me].
The idea that Luke has to contend with the somewhat fourth-wall breaking pressure of being “THE legendary Luke Skywalker™”, feeling some degree of impostor syndrome, is admittedly interesting to some extent. But the level of crippling insecurity and nihilism Luke exhibits is probably something he should have struggled with as a younger, less experienced person. After 35 years, I was kind of hoping to see Luke take on more of a classic “wise mentor” role, giving Mark Hamill free reign to riff on the classic “mystical martial arts master” archetype, loosely modeled after Ben Kenobi in Episode 4. But Luke should also be rattled by the recent disaster with Kylo, struggling to regain confidence in his ability as a mentor/teacher. (Some people would argue that’s exactly what we got with TLJ. But I was hoping to have all that stuff without Luke also being a depressed asshole who doesn’t give a shit that a horde of fascist maniacs is rapidly conquering the Galaxy while Luke fucks around with a fishing pole.)
NFBisms said:
That doesn’t mean he was a “lie”, and it all has so so very little to do with the prequels, or the Jedi as an institution or even an idea. This is a trilogy bereft of any of that kind of worldbuilding or connection - we all know it - but all of a sudden that has valence in this particular critique?
Well, that’s the crazy thing. The Sequels have so little world-building and an almost complete lack of any references to the Prequels. So in TLJ when Luke all of a sudden blurts out the words “Darth Sidious”, you almost get whiplash while thinking: “wait… Rian Johnson actually knows about that??” I mean, yeah the world-building in the Sequels is garbage, but in TLJ Luke pretty much explicitly links his newfound rejection of the Jedi Order directly to historical institutional failures, specifically mentioning Palpatine’s coup in Revenge of the Sith.
NFBisms said:
No, it’s a personal character arc: Luke embracing his flaws and the triumph he is capable of even with them. It’s more analogous to impostor syndrome than it is about history.
I agree that’s probably the intention. I think we both can agree the implementation is just all over the place thematically.
“Do you want to know why I keep a rabid cur in such a place of power? Because weakness, properly manipulated can be a sharp tool.”
I don’t think the movie sold me on this. Also, Hux is still in the room when he says this lol
The message of Luke appearing in projection form isn’t that “the Jedi are good, actually,” it’s that image is everything.
It isn’t necessarily consciously trying to be dour and cynical or make the audience feel bad at the end, but it’s clear that that is the worldview that it’s coming from.
I know I’m stepping in here late but I just wanted to say this is how hot people talk.
“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV
I find it hilarious and highly fallacious how people think the message of this film is “let the past die,” as if that was some deep revelatory insight, when Kylo was LITERALLY referring to murdering his own father. Because that was his response to Rey when she asked why he killed his father. So for people to think this kill the past nonsense is great are literally advocating for murdering your parents. Very disturbing.
In my research efforts to reconstruct a history behind the writing of The Last Jedi, I’ve found that Rian Johnson’s portrayal of Luke was a direct result of Rian’s attempt to work within the story parameters he inherited from The Force Awakens. We know that J.J. Abrams wanted Luke to be hiding on some island, mostly because the writers initially didn’t want Luke to steal the stoplight from the new characters. So J.J. Abrams decided Luke would be hiding on some island, but Abrams never really worked out much of the backstory details beyond that, except for the broad idea that Luke was on some pilgrimage to find an ancient Jedi Temple. Presumably, Luke was seeking answers after the disaster that befell his Jedi school, but the whole thing is very half-baked. (J.J. Abrams loves half-baked mystery plots that take place on a remote island.)
When writing TLJ, Rian Johnson tried to make sense of Abrams’ half-baked plot point of Luke hiding on the island. Rian apparently decided that the best way to explain Luke on the island was that Luke didn’t want to be found, and purposely cut himself off from the Force. This idea was pure Rian, as Abrams initially had Luke using the Force at the end of Force Awakens, levitating some boulders while meditating. Rian Johnson asked Abrams to remove that scene so TFA would fall in line with TLJ. Everything else follows from there.
Now, Rian’s idea for Luke sucks. But it’s not like Rian was working off a blank slate. Rian inherited this stupid scenario from J.J. Abrams, with Luke hiding on an island for under-explained reasons. In my opinion, Rian’s idea only makes it worse and isn’t even compatible with Force Awakens, because (A) it doesn’t explain why Luke would have left a map and (B) it doesn’t explain why Luke went to an island with an ancient Jedi Temple if he wanted to be cut off from the Force and die. It’s also hilarious how Luke is wearing these pristine white robes like a venerated Jedi Master in J.J. Abrams’ version, but in TLJ, Luke immediately changes into his less dignified bum clothes after Rey arrives. Luke’s change of wardrobe signals that a new director has arrived on the island.
But whatever, the point is, we can retrace the historical steps that led to The Last Jedi turning out the way it did, and it clearly has little to do with some malicious plan to damage Star Wars, and more to do with horrible story-telling decisions that probably seemed like good ideas to the people involved at the time. That said, Rian Johnson at the very least must have been aware that what he was writing would be very controversial. He probably thought it would be worth the gamble and trusted his instincts, not wanting to repeat the same old Jedi training scenes from the Original Trilogy, and believing his script would be vindicated and praised as bold, innovative and original, and most importantly, unpredictable, with many “twists” that defy pre-conceived audience expectations about a Star Wars sequel, much like Empire Strikes Back.
TLDR: J.J. Abrams vomited out a typical low-effort mystery box script that exiled Luke to a remote island for half-baked, under-explained, out-of-Universe reasons, and Rian Johnson just ran with it and added his own personal angle as an auteur, thus turning Luke into the depressed asshole we know and love. It’s not what I would have done if I inherited J.J.'s mess of a story, but then, Disney doesn’t care what I think.
Here’s the thing. There are many creative things you could do with that setup. Like you said, you could say Luke is trying to figure out why his academy got destroyed and how he could change things for the better. Hence why he would go to the first Jedi temple, to learn about something the original Jedi knew that was lost over time. Maybe he was researching a way to beat Snoke and he didn’t want anyone else getting in danger while he was working, but it didn’t pan out. The idea I came up with when I first saw TFA was that Luke was afraid of his own level of power - he was at the point where he had so much mastery over the Force that he was tempted to use it in ways that would lead him to the dark side. (A sliver of this idea sort of gets used where he’s afraid of Rey’s power and he was afraid of the power he gave Kylo Ren, but it’s immediately dropped.)
What Rian CHOSE to do with that setup reveals a lot about his own opinions and worldview, especially given, like you said, it doesn’t make any logical sense either.
Exactly! I find the notion and rationale that Rian had to depict Luke the way he did because of Abrams’ set up in TFA to completely illustrate Rian’s lack of imagination and piss poor ideas. Luke should have sought out the Jedi temple to discover a way to defeat Snoke, who initially, as seen in the Rise of Kylo Ren comic, was disfigured at the hands of Luke. LOL. Disney rebooted the canon and failed with continuity just in 2 years of their trilogy. Because now we know all the Snoke clones look disfigured. Ridiculous.
Anyway another line of dialogue that just rubs me the wrong way is when Maz Kaneda recollects the code breaker and replies to c3po saying “sounds like he can do anything,” with her stroking her gun saying, “oh yes, he can…” in a sexual manner, and then Finn and Rose trade looks like something taboo and kinky is being conveyed. Disgusting to say the least for giving me that image of the code breaker and Maz having sexual relations…
Vladius said:
But if you critically examine that at all, it’s deeply cynical about what heroism is, and about the value of tradition or culture. Again, the Jedi and Luke are a noble lie.*uncritically examine, take at face value
wow good one
Yeah, I see that too, I just think it’s symptomatic of an unwieldy/messy script more than it is intentional malice or whatever for the series. That’s ridiculous to me, it’s at worst a guy who has different ideas [than you or someone else] about how this all works and who these characters are.
The most charitable interpretation I can come up with is Rian Johnson was going for something along the lines of a “Wizard of Oz” type message, where it turns out the Scarecrow and Cowardly Lion had all the brains or courage they needed all along, and just needed to believe in themselves to access it. Something like that. That is sort of compatible with what happens with Rey’s journey of self-discovery, where she sort of self-learns the Force. There’s nothing inherently wrong with a message like that, but it’s not a fit for Star Wars and what was established before, where the Force requires a mentor to learn and is already part of a pre-packaged, venerated mythology.
As for “intentional malice” - I’m not really sure what that would even mean in this case. I don’t believe that like, Rian Johnson sat down one day and started angrily writing the script, saying things like “I’ll show those stupid Star Wars fans… they want to see Luke do they? Oh I’ll give them Luke… I’ll give them Luke all right!!! Bwahaahaahaaa!!!1!!! *starts choking on iced latte*”
I think Rian Johnson just wanted to take Star Wars in a new direction he thought would be interesting, while avoiding accusations of just retreading Empire Strikes Back and working within the story parameters that carried over from Force Awakens, and he ended up writing a very misguided script. At the very least, I found it heartbreaking watching the Mark Hamill interviews about this.
I would compare it to the attitude from this iconic interaction between Blizzard and WoW fans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wrw3c2NjeE
“You think that having a cool Jedi with a lightsaber in your movie would be good, but it wouldn’t. You think that’s what you want, but it isn’t.” That’s basically what Luke tells Rey at the beginning and it sets the tone for the whole thing. Every part of it is like that, even down to a visual gag where you think you’re looking at a cool space ship and it’s really a clothes iron or something. The “subverting expectations” meme. It even starts subverting itself within individual scenes, to the point where it kills off original ideas, like what if Rey actually joined Kylo.
Oh, you think you know what a good movie is? I’ll show you what a good movie is. You like this character? Well, maybe I’ll show you what the “realistic” version of that character is. It’s more like that attitude.
My conjecture is that Rian’s thought process was something like this: “So the audience is all psyched up to see Luke for the first time in like 40 years. Okay, so what are they most expecting to see? They’re probably expecting Luke to come in like Superman, kick some ass, and save the day. So I think it would be really cool if he did the exact opposite. Kind of like how, in Empire Strikes Back, your entire notion of who Vader is gets turned upside down. I want to do something similar with audience expectations for Luke.”
I also detect some meta-joky snarkiness in Rian’s script, perhaps taking a few light-hearted jabs at the audience for expecting such a cliche outcome for Luke. Of course, I’ll happily admit I would have preferred the cliche version of Luke that just straightforwardly kicks ass. But there has to be some conflict, obviously. Having Luke off soul searching after his Jedi school gets destroyed is a decent premise for a nice character arc. But Rian Johnson just took it WAY too far by making Luke nihilistic to the point of literally being suicidal, writing off the Jedi Order completely, and moping around waiting to die while his sister and best friends are in serious trouble. But to give Rian some credit, he actually does have Luke show up and kick ass at the end - just not in the way we would have expected. The “astral projection” thing could actually be a clever twist under different circumstances.
Also, the logic Luke uses to justify giving up on the Jedi order doesn’t really make sense in context. The Jedi failed to stop a coup one time back in like 20 BBY or something, therefore the entire Jedi Order is eternally condemned and the millennia of peace they presumably helped uphold doesn’t count for some reason. Rian just had this silly Zoroastrian-inspired idea of darkness rising to balance out the light, and vice-versa, perhaps the result of a corrupted interpretation of Lucas’ vague nonsense about balance in the Prequels. It sounds like some ad hoc idea Rian invented to justify Luke giving up on the Jedi.
That’s what I mean. He sees what people want and expect, and does the opposite because he thinks that makes it deeper or more intelligent or more long-lasting. Which is not necessarily true and in this case it clearly wasn’t.
Rian just had this silly Zoroastrian-inspired idea of darkness rising to balance out the light, and vice-versa, perhaps the result of a corrupted interpretation of Lucas’ vague nonsense about balance in the Prequels. It sounds like some ad hoc idea Rian invented to justify Luke giving up on the Jedi.
This take on the Force is rejected by the movie. It’s a [popular] expectation (gray Jedi, anyone?), in the same vein as EU Luke, that is disposed of to reinforce the Original Trilogy. This where it gets so messy in reception, because Rian’s engagement with Star Wars, like everyone’s, is personal and varied and doesn’t fit into a box.
He doesn’t do an idealized, super Luke because like me he saw that Luke literally didn’t beat the Emperor with his powers, he bet on his dad and his friends. The type of guy who literally did take himself out of a picture so that he wouldn’t endanger the mission on Endor. That’s the interpretation. You don’t have to agree with it or how it was done, but it emphasizes Luke for who he was, not as a trained Jedi, but a son. A farmboy in over his head, just a guy, like you or me. That’s why he resonated [to Rian, to me].
That doesn’t mean he was a “lie”, and it all has so so very little to do with the prequels, or the Jedi as an institution or even an idea. This is a trilogy bereft of any of that kind of worldbuilding or connection - we all know it - but all of a sudden that has valence in this particular critique? No, it’s a personal character arc: Luke embracing his flaws and the triumph he is capable of even with them. It’s more analogous to impostor syndrome than it is about history.
In what way is it rejected by the movie? Both Luke and Snoke tell you explicitly that’s what’s going on, and there’s a big yin yang symbol at the Jedi temple. One of the only scenes Rey has where Luke is actually teaching something is when she’s meditating and sensing all the opposites on the island: hot/cold, life/death, etc. and light side/dark side is one of those, then “balance.” You can infer that the evil mirror cave is on the island because the Jedi there wanted balance or it came to exist because the temple was there.
You’re describing exactly why Luke is the ideal and why people like him. He already overcame himself and conquered temptation. This reverses that development. It would be satisfying to see that inner growth manifest as outward physical power, sure, because that would be cool. But at the very least by basic storytelling logic he should be the wise mentor figure here who has something to teach the next generation. You’re going to say that he was. He was not. By the text of what actually happens in the movie, he was an unnecessary waste of time and effort and the big lesson he learns at the end was that he already blew his chance to teach about “failure”.
It has everything to do with the prequels. Everything Luke says is because he “watched the prequels” as it were.
“basic storytelling logic” he “should” be the wise mentor figure here who has something to teach the next generation
i don’t believe in this
not a Jedi apologist or a Jedi hater but a secret third thing
The answer is within Rey herself and the Jedi Texts, she never needed Luke. It’s pretty explicit. She wanted Luke to fill the void of her dead parents. He was too far gone to teach her anything, she taught him. She restored his faith and redeemed him. He used the last of his energy to fake a force projection via astral projection because he was no longer that hero but the symbol was important to inspire hope.
I don’t know why the movie says Luke is better dead as a symbol rather than being present. But i’m not Rian Johnson.
Luke needed to forgive himself for the fall of Ben. He thought he was beyond redemption. He cut himself off from the force as a punishment, but also to hide himself from Leia and from Snoke.
Luke went to the island to die and he did. The whole Jake Skywalker motif is all he did in the sequel trilogy. He accomplished nothing, passed on nothing. did not fulfil his charge of restoring the Jedi order or teaching Leia to be a Jedi Knight. ROS acts like he did train Rey and Leia but those are retcons. So is the entire I was a coward and afraid bit. Rian did not write it that way. He wrote it as if Jedi were the cause of the balance being in chaos and if the Jedi die then who cares.
Luke not talking a stand against fascism is treated like a noble endeavor to sit out the fight. Like being passive when billions die is not a dereliction of honor and duty. To allow Han, Luke and Leia’s causes to just slip away for nothing. Restoring the Republic and Democracy. Finn, Poe and Rey step into the breach to do what the last generation messed up and were too incompetent to keep the peace.
Han dies alone on a bridge while Luke drinks green elephant milk and whines about laser swords. Its like a nightmare. And Leia just lies down and dies like Yoda passing away. At least Lando was still heroic and rode in to save the day.
At least Mark gives a good performance and i will give Rian credit in the line about the vanity of the Jedi and their dogma. It’s also not wrong that Obi-Wan’s pride and hubris created Darth Vader the same way Lukes’ created Kylo Ren.
I do like the mythic scope of the photography and the Zen Buddhist concepts on Ach-To. I think Luke was profoundly wrong and at least Yoda corrected him for being foolish. I also like the force projection scene of Luke walking out of the Hanger on Crait, its awesome I only wish it wasn’t a mere image but that he was actually there with his green lightsaber.
I think the past scene of Luke trying to murder Ben in his sleep was novel but far too cute, ala Rashomon. It’s something only a film student or someone who knows Kurosawa would get. Typical of the auteur and film as art to be over the head of the audience these, are kid’s movies.
Whining about The Last Jedi is still a big red flag for me. So what, a bad movie came out that didn’t do what you wanted with a character? Move on with your life and just never acknowledge it.
The more I realize it, the more I just wish we never had sequels to ‘77.
I don’t agree with all of the choices made but I’m more than willing to argue in defense of what the film did well versus what it did not.
Good acting, cinematography, score, art design. The humor did not work in the slightest. But you know Mark and Carrie put their all into their performance. You get a good slice of the old Luke and Leia in there even if it’s not enough to satisfy original trilogy fans. And I like some of the film better than the novel, but the novel version is better in a lot of ways than the film in how it approaches the OT characters and treats them not as set pieces but people.
Han Solo’s funeral was moving beyond words to me. Why is that not in the film. Just so many odd decisions.
Lukes’s regret and Luke’s redemption are clear in the novel and not in the film. In the film you have to put yourself in his shoes and fill in the blanks, Rian gives you very little to understand other than the repetition of Kenobi’s hubris and pride as described in ROTJ novelization, being repeated. And a New Vader rising.
Watching the film with Rian’s commentary just confused me even more, I don’t see Star Wars the way he does or the character of Luke Skywalker and that is okay.
Maybe if duel of the fates had been made and Episode 9 stuck the landing people would be more forgiving of some of the more baffling choices made. I’m talking more of the sequel trilogy as a whole rather than the Last Jedi in isolation, the film does work better in isolation and not a direct sequel to Return of the Jedi.
Overall the sequels have better acting more understandable human interactions and motives and better dialog than the prequel trilogy. They are much better-looking films, the parts shot on film anyway and with real sets. You can fault them for not doing boring space politics, but I don’t disagree with why they did that, no one wanted midichlorians and space tariffs again. Rise of Skywalker has the worst story and dialogue period in the entire Saga enough for me to pull an Elrond say cast it into the fire destroy it.
Han dies alone on a bridge
The same thing happened to Captain Kirk. Why do these legendary characters keep falling off bridges?
Whining about The Last Jedi is still a big red flag for me. So what, a bad movie came out that didn’t do what you wanted with a character? Move on with your life and just never acknowledge it.
But it’s just so fun to whine about.
Anyway, after watching that cool victory party on Endor back in the 80s, I was totally looking forward to seeing my favorite trio of characters again 40 years later. It’s so awesome how the new Republic they fought so hard to establish was summarily blown up as an afterthought, and all three OT characters basically accomplished nothing and died in increasingly pointless and depressing ways.
The only problem is that Luke’s death in TLJ was probably slightly too meaningful. Instead of dying from over-exertion after an astral projection, it would have been WAY cooler if Luke just collapsed randomly one day from coronary artery disease while he was out fishing.
But it’s just so fun to whine about.
It sounds absolutely miserable for the people who don’t like the movies. What’s wrong with just ignoring media you dislike, just pretending it never happened? Hell, Legends is right there as a different canon to follow.
You could have ignored their posts, but didn’t. Maybe you can find some understanding for their perspective there?
You could have ignored their posts, but didn’t. Maybe you can find some understanding for their perspective there?
I get their perspective and I disagree with it. Maybe I could have been more graceful, IDK.
But it’s just so fun to whine about.
It sounds absolutely miserable for the people who don’t like the movies. What’s wrong with just ignoring media you dislike, just pretending it never happened? Hell, Legends is right there as a different canon to follow.
Shrug. It’s just an aspect of certain human personalities. Some people, myself included, just enjoy exploring and discussing the various reasons that explain why some piece of media sucks. The Prequels used to be one of the primary targets for discussions like these, but that honor has now been passed along to the Sequels.
Of course, like 95% of everything sucks. Most things that suck are not worth discussing. But some things that suck are more interesting to talk about, because they’re connected to things that don’t suck - which evokes a sense of lost opportunity. This is why the suckiness of the Prequels and Sequels is fascinating to me.
I find it hilarious and highly fallacious how people think the message of this film is “let the past die,” as if that was some deep revelatory insight, when Kylo was LITERALLY referring to murdering his own father. Because that was his response to Rey when she asked why he killed his father. So for people to think this kill the past nonsense is great are literally advocating for murdering your parents. Very disturbing.
I think “let the past die” actually IS a message or theme of the film. Yes, Kylo - the villain of the film - says this line, and yes, in context, Kylo is making a point building upon the fact that he recently killed his own father. But a similar message is also expressed by the “good guy” character of Yoda. Yoda capriciously burns down the Jedi library - a repository of past knowledge - and tells Luke that Rey must move beyond the past Jedi masters by learning from their mistakes. Moving on from the past is certainly a theme of the movie, and the meta-commentary woven into the script suggests the message is something like “we need to move beyond the tropes of old Star Wars movies and embrace something new”. This message is also consistent with the actual events of the film, wherein Rey learns almost nothing from Luke (who represents “the past”) except what NOT to do - i.e. learning from past mistakes or failures.
The fact that Kylo Ren (a bad guy) and Yoda (a good guy) preach equivalent or thematically congruent messages is simply another result of the thematic dissonance in TLJ. (At best, and giving TONS of benefit of the doubt to this stupid film, perhaps Rian was trying to juxtapose “healthy” ways of moving on from the past with “unhealthy” ways of doing so.) Also, Kylo’s line “let the past die” is not necessarily ONLY referring to the murder of Han Solo, but in context, it refers also to Rey’s need to let go of past expectations built on false beliefs about her parents. So there is clearly at least SOME wisdom in what Kylo tells her. But the whole thing is a thematic mess that needed several additional rewrites.
The “Your Mama” joke from Poe to Hux was also insufferable. I couldn’t tell if I was watching Star Wars or Spaceballs
The only time I felt like getting up and walking out of a cinema was this stupid SNL sketch at the start. I was in diss-life that this “low level of comedy” was in a Star Wars film. Coming from A director who claimed to love Star Wars.
It just got worse from there. So much so I didn’t watch ROTS in the cinema.
Whining about The Last Jedi is still a big red flag for me. So what, a bad movie came out that didn’t do what you wanted with a character? Move on with your life and just never acknowledge it.
The more I realize it, the more I just wish we never had sequels to ‘77.
Aw, poor you. A topic on a forum makes you wish upon a star for an alternate reality. Sounds like you’re the one that needs to move on with your life. I’m not going to not acknowledge something just to appease you just because you can’t find a safe space for your feelings 24/7. Oh, and I love J.K Rowling by the way so deal with that too LOL
Edit: nvm, not worth it.
Whining about The Last Jedi is still a big red flag for me. So what, a bad movie came out that didn’t do what you wanted with a character? Move on with your life and just never acknowledge it.
The more I realize it, the more I just wish we never had sequels to ‘77.
Red flag for what?
It’s a Star Wars forum about Star Wars movies where people talk about them. Move on with your own life.
“basic storytelling logic” he “should” be the wise mentor figure here who has something to teach the next generation
i don’t believe in this
That’s because you’re being contrarian on purpose.
Contrary to the two acceptable [apparently] camps of thought to have on The Last Jedi, probably.
not a Jedi apologist or a Jedi hater but a secret third thing
No speaking in riddles, please. If you have a counterpoint then explain it, taking things personally and huffing away is boring for discussion. We shouldn’t be engaging in clap backs, we’re smarter than this.
“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV