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The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread — Page 14

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Just peeking in again and I see tons of changes being proposed again.

I know that you guys have set a lot of things up for these edits, and I'm glad that you're going to have an outline and "script" posted online to refer to as you work.

---Replacing Sidious with Dooku? A bit of a stretch. I do like the idea of Qui-Gon talking to him from Tatooine though, to establish the relationship between them. If it helps, there are tutorials online for using After Effects on how to generate holograms and insert them into existing footage. This method could allow you to create the footage you want of Dooku leaving the Order, if he is a hologram in the center of the Council Chamber. Just a thought.

---Cutting down on Gungans? I'd have to agree with MTH (believe it or not!) that the big battle sequence, minus Jar Jar's antics are a must for Ep I. Cutting down on the Gungans too much, no matter how annoying they may seem, may leave you with more holes than before. Subs or dubs can be used to make them tolerable, as you've said. We do have to make sure that any dialogue changes can be balanced by what other characters will be saying though.

---Grievous=Maul? I'm all for this one. I personally don't believe we need to see any kind of transformation in Ep II, especially if there's a chance that Vader's transformation will be shown in Ep III. That would answer any questions abotu how this was possible. Leave it a surprise, a new reveal for a new saga. You can use the new dialogue of Grievous in Ep III to drop clues as to his true identity. For example on the bridge of the starship (change in bold), "Ah General Kenobi, The Negotiator. We meet again at long last." Leaving that hanging might go overlooked by the Jedi and most viewers, but if Obi-Wan and Anakin are concentrating on the matter at hand, this would go unnoticed in the moment. Then, when Obi-Wan finally has the big one-on-one with Grievous, you can leave him dropping more clues in the initial saber fight until the reveal comes just before Obi-Wan defeats him. There is some symmetry to the battles of Ep I and Ep III then. Obi-Wan is older and wiser and has allowed himself to grieve for Qui-Gon by this point. No sense in having any concerns of him being overly emotional.

---Dubbing via alternate languages? This could get sticky. I mentioned this with my roommate over the weekend and he had a comment. This could be bad since you're releasing it for the whole world to see. For example, I believe someone mentioned German as a source for some characters at one point. So what happens when someone who IS German watches the movie? See what I mean? He actually recommended that we get someone who speaks a completely foreign language to write everything. who Subtitles btw are very easy if you're burning them directly into the footage. Use the "titles" track/tools from Womble to add what you need, where you need it. I used it for my first "test" DVD project.

---The Montage at the start? Ick. Just doesn't fit.

Just a few thoughts there. I do like the ideas I'm seeing though, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it all turns out.

EDIT: Didn't see the outline, as I started typing before it was posted. Looks good though.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c35/damonhunter/TDHOpenerMini.jpg
"Luminous beings are we -- not this crude matter." ~~Master Yoda
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." ~~Lord Vader
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Thanks, DemonHunter. Always glad to agree with you, by the way. I know from the "BigMigMaker" that I don't disagree with you as much as I must seem to.

Anyone else here gonna comment? I feel like I posted the outline and then...

>chirp chirp< /cricket noises...

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Wouldnt it be better if you included the scene of Dooku leaving the order in AOTC as a flashback since how will new viewers understand who he is, to put it in AOTC makes more sense?

Also, why replace Sidious in TPM, by doing that you decrease his role in the ultimate plot?
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I'm no Dukoo expert, but didn't he leave the Jedi ten years ago in AOTC?

As for Sidious, he hasn't been removed as far as the story's concerned-- he's still the hidden Sith Master pulling the strings. We just get hints of him instead of seeing him front and center twisting his moustache and snarling like the original release. This is more like the Emperor's role in ANH. Felt, but not seen. It fits much better with the Phantom Menace idea behind the political story-- and it simplifies the movie. It's all good.

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What I meant, you could do a flashback scene in AOTC, in TPM it would be confusing since the audience doesnt know who this new character.

It makes more sense for AOTC since it gives new light to this newly introduced character.

It may simpilfy, but viewers that see this new version first instead of watching the original will be confused, you do want to simplify the movie but to leave important details than your creating new problems.
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I apologize for posting in here soo much earlier, didn't mean to clutter the converstation, got a little excited I guess. I'll refrain from posting and yet remain an observer....
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Originally posted by: Mask
What I meant, you could do a flashback scene in AOTC, in TPM it would be confusing since the audience doesnt know who this new character.

It makes more sense for AOTC since it gives new light to this newly introduced character.

It may simpilfy, but viewers that see this new version first instead of watching the original will be confused, you do want to simplify the movie but to leave important details than your creating new problems.


Well, wait until you see it ;-)

No one was confused in ANH by reference to the Emperor. There will be no confusion in our Episode I-- in fact there will be less than there was with TPM. Don't you remember people being baffled about the political story in TPM? I sure do. It seemed sort of clear, but what was the Emperor doing in there and why did he pretend he didn't know stuff that Palpatine knew? All that's gone and the Sidious role is played the way things would have been if this were in the OT-- more subtle on the politics. More emphasis on story and adventure.

And as to Dukoo -- I don't think we've established a way to include him for sure. But if we do, he won't be any more confusing than the dozen or so other characters who are introduced in this story as Jedi whom we've never seen before. At any rate, flashbacks are kind of out of the question because we won't be introducing any techniques which aren't in the OT-- except maybe the dream which has become essential to SOTD and is included in ROTS quite effectively. I think an Episode II flashback might come off as a band-aid anyway. The problem with the character isn't that he somehow didn't exist in the past, it's that we didn't know he existed. It would've been cooler if we'd sort of heard the name before. Don't you agree? (Maybe that's the solution-- just say his name. Kind of like when Luke asked "Did you fight in the Clone Wars?" and we waited four more movies to see what he was talking about.)

If we could just get Dukoo into Episode I, then it would really make him a richer character in Episode II. But if we can't-- he never bothered me that much anyway. I like that idea of just getting his name in there somewhere...

Thoughts?

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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
Anyone else here gonna comment? I feel like I posted the outline and then...

>chirp chirp< /cricket noises...

Haha, well it's quite a read, MTH, but someone had to do it so thanks for putting that all together. Now onto the comments:

-We hear Jar Jar's back story, but no giant fish grabs them
I think one fish (as in MagnoliaFan's version) is fine. Every Star Wars movie needs a creature after all, and would would want to lose Liam Neeson's extremely Irish line-reading of "There's always a bigger fish."

-Padme cleans artoo and meets Jar Jar. They land on Tatooine.
Never liked that scene, or the whole concept of the "Queen" ordering Padme to clean R2. Just dub the name of another handmaiden over "Padme" and cut the cleaning scene scene. Oh, and the lines "It is to be commended" and "It deserves our gratitude" need to go entirely.

-Find Watoo's shop, Qui Gonn talks to Watoo out back
Would it be ripping-off Magnolia Fan to have Watto hum the Cantina song? I always liked that bit, but it probably wouldn't fit with our approach would it?

-Maul/Grievous lands and sends out his probe droids.
As I suggested before I would move this to after the pod activation scene and follow it with an Anakin dream. What is the concenus on that, btw? I'm all for it if we can make it obscure and mysterious enough.

-Anakin shows Padme C3P0 after dinner.
Curious, why the shuffling of scene order here?

Sidenote: You seem to be pushing back Qui-Gon's notice/interest in Anakin's potential. Moving the conversation between him and Shmi is an interesting suggestion, but only if it can be edited smoothly. If not, it should stay as-si. Seeing his bet to free Anakin is essential though, IMO. It makes the stakes even higher: although he doesn't know it, Anakin is racing for his freedom. Moving the probe droid report to Maul up does make sense though, as the one Qui-Gon cut down is obviously not the one who returns to Maul.

-Anakin says goodbye to his mother and leaves (improved with tone poem, if possible)
-Maul sees Anakin for a moment, keeps fighting (don't know if we can do this)
Little things we should try if we can.

-(cut the intro of Anakin to Obi Wan -- it's too upbeat) Fly away--
Agree about the upbeatness of it, but it is essential nonetheless. Cutting "You're a Jedi too?" would help. If you wanted to go really extreme with it, just mute all Anakin's dialogue in the exchange and have a clip of ominous music or something.

-Maul/Grievous reports to Gunray in the palace by trasmission. Nute's stoic, but clearly not thrilled.
Good, but I take it no close ups of Maul? Or just darkening the hood to complete blackness? That might be for the best, though we'd lose the one true Maul hologram clip, it would make the editing much smoother.

Sidenote: The order of the Coruscant sequence should stay as-is. Having ALL the Senate stuff then ALL the Jedi stuff is too much of the same thing continuously. Let them break each other up.

-Queen reveals her plan -- Qui Gonn tunes out, disappointed (don't even explain the whole thing-- show him disinterested and bring up somber music). Amidala is brave, but this is hopeless...
This is good, I like this a lot.

-The Jedi fight into the hanger and free the pilots.
I assume you plan on taking this from earlier in the film? I wouldn't, and leave that bit where it was originally.

Sidenote: Overall your plans for the final battles are great, though the key to success will be in the editing.

-From Anakin's p.o.v-- we see Qui Gonn's funeral pyre. No talk to Obi Wan.
I think that exchange between Obi-Wan and Anakin is essential. It's very short but at least establishes something between them.

Sidenote: Trooperman has said he has the perfect ending music for Episode I; not that I've heard it but chances are it'll work great. Also, though I hold by my opinion that each chapter in the saga should have it's own title, if we can't think of a good enough one, I say go with "Star Wars." It would certainly be a different approach, and add to the stand-alone feel.
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Gotta love this coincidence -- the longest any you guys ever gone without posting is right after I post the big outline. Where'd all my friends go?

Holding court all by myself -- I continue--

The strategy here is to hone everything down to the adventure of Qui Gonn -- how his piss-ant assignment to help Naboo turned into the biggest discovery of his career and awakened the Council.

Now the beginning needs to feel like Qui Gonn's getting in over his head-- facing an enemy that can handle him. Then, when he meets Anakin, I want to feel his discovery of Anakin's powers. Slowly, the decision comes that he must take this boy to the council, this boy is the chosen one. Having Qui Gonn get it all at once immediately-- and then (ick) testing the boy for midiclorians -- all undermined any sense of awe or discovery. It was too clinical and exposition oriented. Drawing out the discovery and hiding Qui Gonn's interest in taking the boy until after the race that confirms his suspicions about the boy's power makes this all more dramatic and OT.

The idea that Qui Gonn's meeting with the council is less civil than in TPM came up thread. What a boost that gives the second half-- Qui Gonn feels condemned and his discovery tossed aside. He should now come off as feeling doomed, dutifully facing an overwhelming enemy. The council just isn't listening or functioning right-- and he and Anakin may pay the price.

Leaving Obi Wan's warning "they all sense he's dangerous, admit it" without him apologizing makes this all more jagged and interesting too. Obi Wan is a supporting character in Episode I and we don't need to go out of our way to make him apologize about Anakin-- it actually suits SOTD better to have him maintain his suspicions. And it keeps the emotions raw as we head into the final bloody battle.

It especially keeps us keyed in on Qui Gonn and how little understood he is.

I look forward to your comments and hope I can make all the strenghts of these changes clear.

Take care--

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Sorry about this, but at the risk of continuing the flogging of this poor dead horse (and I promise just one more woopah of the whip and I'm done).

THX's last post got me thinking, and I think he is right it is what many people would chose to do it that situation. Lets ook at it this way (and I know I am not changing anybodies mind so I don't know why I am posting this) Anakin was a good friend to Obi-Wan, imagine that he pretty much raised the kid through his teen years, from nine and up. He mentions that Anakin was like his brother. Anakin refers to Obi-Wan as being like a father to him. Now Anakin turns to the dark side. Obi-Wan probably even lies to himself saying his good old buddy Ani is dead. Now the son of the man who was one of the people that meant the most to Obi-Wan in his life is sitting before him asking what his father was like. Now he has a choice, tell Luke his father was a good man and a hero like the galaxy remembers (probably it is throught that Anakin was kill in the purge along with all the other Jedi). Or tell hims his dad is the second most evil man in the universe. His lying doesn't only have to be in order to protect Luke. He could be protecting the honor of his old friend. For him to be remembered as having been killed by the sith sounds better than hims having become a traitor. Anakin was a good man, and the power of the dark side seduced him, to Obi the good man that was his friend was lost forever. Destroyed by the dark side. Probably if Obi-Wan thought there was any chance of Vader being turn back to the light side he would do everything he could to do that. In Return of the Jedi we see that Vader wont he aknowlege that he is Anakin Skywalker. "That name means nothing to me now." Even the Emperor refers to Anakin in the third person when speaking directly to Vader. Perhaps it is even common practice among the Jedi to consider somebody dead when they have turned to the dark side. It could be rather than old Ben lying through his teeth, that he couldn't bear the though of letting Luke know the truth. He probably also never imagined Vader would try to convert Luke and turn him rather than just try to kill him. Okay, the horse his dead, the whip is broken, and the horse is buried as far as I am concerned, I will not clutter the board with any more of my comments.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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I've been thinking about how best to order the Coruscant sequence. In the original cut, here's the order (if memory serves):
Landing
Palpatine talking with Amidala
Qui-Gon telling the Council about Darth Maul
Anakin searching for Padme
The Senate scene
Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan talking
Anakin's test
Amidala deciding to go back
The Council deciding not to train Anakin
Leaving

Sidenote: The order of the Coruscant sequence should stay as-is. Having ALL the Senate stuff then ALL the Jedi stuff is too much of the same thing continuously. Let them break each other up.


I agree. The lighting in the various scenes makes it difficult to envision the scenes together. We'd have to go through a full day with Padme, then go back, and watch the same day again from Qui-Gon's point of view (or the other way around). That just doesn't feel right. Plus, cutting straight from Qui-Gon in front of the Council to either Qui-Gon talking with Obi-Wan or Anakin in front of the council seems weird. And, I think by dividing Coruscant into a Padme segment and a Qui-Gon segment actually reduces the emphasis on Qui-Gon. If we follow the order I listed below, I think we keep more focus on Qui-Gon throughout. I think starting with Qui-Gon's story instead of Amidala's makes it feel like the more urgent one.

We're cutting the scene where Anakin looks for Padme, which leaves us with nine scenes. We can't mess with the order to much, because of the light (one of my favorite parts of the movie, actually). But if we can find a shot of the Senate Building during sunset, then we can put them in this order:
Landing (obviously)
Qui-Gon telling the Council about Darth Maul, getting permission to bring Anakin before the Council
Palpatine talking with Amidala
Anakin's test
Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan talking
The Senate scene
The Council deciding not to train Anakin
Amidala deciding to go back
Leaving

ETA: More explaination
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Well, there you go again CC-- without Trooperman here we're going to have to come to terms on these issues ourselves. At least there is much we agree upon.

Originally posted by: Commander Courage

-We hear Jar Jar's back story, but no giant fish grabs them
I think one fish (as in MagnoliaFan's version) is fine. Every Star Wars movie needs a creature after all, and would would want to lose Liam Neeson's extremely Irish line-reading of "There's always a bigger fish."


I actually like the fish being there, but they take a lot of time without achieving the slightest amount of excitement. I had this idea: what if the fish is coming at them, but gets grabbed itself before it grabs them-- that would have the same impact, allow for the same line-- yet not slow us down for a fake scare beat.


-Padme cleans artoo and meets Jar Jar. They land on Tatooine.
Never liked that scene, or the whole concept of the "Queen" ordering Padme to clean R2. Just dub the name of another handmaiden over "Padme" and cut the cleaning scene scene. Oh, and the lines "It is to be commended" and "It deserves our gratitude" need to go entirely.

I totally agree with this-- that's why I want to cut all that stuff and get just to Padme cleaning R2. Without the Queen debriefing scene, the Padme cleaning the droid scene works a lot better. She's cleaning the droid and showing gratitude rather than telling us he deserves it. It's a much stronger character statement this way. It should be tweaked, but it provides an opportunity for Artoo to be a character and for Padme to meet Jar Jar which isn't covered in the magfan edit. I think the cleaning scene is a real undervalued opportunity. But the "debriefing" scene has got to go.

-Find Watoo's shop, Qui Gonn talks to Watoo out back
Would it be ripping-off Magnolia Fan to have Watto hum the Cantina song? I always liked that bit, but it probably wouldn't fit with our approach would it?

I don't know-- I personally feel like you that it's great. I believe it should stay because it somehow feels OT, even though I know it's more of a cheap joke/reference. It added a bit of quirkiness to Watto. Can we keep it?

-Maul/Grievous lands and sends out his probe droids.
As I suggested before I would move this to after the pod activation scene and follow it with an Anakin dream. What is the concenus on that, btw? I'm all for it if we can make it obscure and mysterious enough.

I haven't been convinced a dream is necessary, but I like the idea. Once we do a dream, it starts making Anakin the Main Character and I think the story is stronger if we stay completely with Qui Gonn -- not enough good Anakin footage is there to achieve a great Anakin Main Character story. He's much better as the character who is changed and affected by the Main Character -- the partner in the central relationship.

But I'm more interested in Drama-- and my placement of Maul's arrival is about energizing the Tatooine stuff -- until he arrives there is no threat. So they won't get the parts they need-- so they won't get to Coruscant-- yeah yeah. But what's the immediate danger? Maul's arrival keeps the story moving. Who's that guy? Is that the threat Nute mentioned? Is he gonna find them? He looks awesome, let's use him.

-Anakin shows Padme C3P0 after dinner.
Curious, why the shuffling of scene order here?

Because it totally interrupts the flow where it is now-- the story is about helping the Queen. The story is already floundering when the sandstorm hits-- we need to get to that dinner scene asap. The 3P0 scene is bad enough where ever it goes-- it's just more welcome after we know where the story is going. Plus it starts to back up the kid's claims of greatness better here, immediately following his "fastest pod-racer ever built" lines. It feels just plain weird to me where it is in TPM.

Sidenote: You seem to be pushing back Qui-Gon's notice/interest in Anakin's potential. Moving the conversation between him and Shmi is an interesting suggestion, but only if it can be edited smoothly. If not, it should stay as-si. Seeing his bet to free Anakin is essential though, IMO. It makes the stakes even higher: although he doesn't know it, Anakin is racing for his freedom. Moving the probe droid report to Maul up does make sense though, as the one Qui-Gon cut down is obviously not the one who returns to Maul.

The Shmi conversation can be moved very smoothly-- it actually opens up that goodbye scene much better.

Seeing the bet to free Anakin is essential? Well, I may have agreed at one time-- but I can't anymore. The idea that Qui Gonn has already made up his mind about the boy doesn't raise tension in the pod race -- it drains it completely. Did you really think the boy wouldn't win? I think the pod-race is awesome, but the end was never really in doubt and the idea that he was racing for his freedom was the furthest thing from my mind.

The bet makes the race a forgone conclusion -- Qui Gonn's side bet makes it unimaginable that Anakin could lose.

The worst damage it does is makes the podrace all about it's outcome-- there is nothing important being learned during that long sequence. It's just watching a pair of dice roll and roll and roll until it comes up "7." But if Qui Gonn hasn't made up his mind about the boy-- the race is full of tension and becomes what you want it to be-- a race for freedom. We know if Qui Gonn wants the boy, he'll figure out a way to get him. But this way it's the race that decides whether Qui Gonn wants him or not. As he says, he didn't come here to free slaves. But he will free the chosen one-- if that's who the boy turns out to be. That's the discovery Qui Gonn should be making as the kid wins this one after falling impossibly behind.

Imagine it my way for a second at least-- try it on.

-Anakin says goodbye to his mother and leaves (improved with tone poem, if possible)
-Maul sees Anakin for a moment, keeps fighting (don't know if we can do this)
Little things we should try if we can.

Exactly my thought.

-(cut the intro of Anakin to Obi Wan -- it's too upbeat) Fly away--
Agree about the upbeatness of it, but it is essential nonetheless. Cutting "You're a Jedi too?" would help. If you wanted to go really extreme with it, just mute all Anakin's dialogue in the exchange and have a clip of ominous music or something.


I would have agreed before-- but now not so much. Why is it essential? This isn't the Obi Wan story. The reason I think it has to go is that Lloyd's performance of those lines is more than off-- it is the absolute inarguable personification of a boy who hasn't got a care in the world. There is no way that kid is thinking about having lost his mom. He is not thinking about the Sith who almost killed him. That kid is just glad to meet Ewan McGregor for some reason. And that KILLS the story.

But if you imagine a different version-- Qui Gonn collapses on the floor; Obi Wan and Anakin rush in- Qui Gonn addresses them about that thing-- the ship takes off-- we cut to the EXT. SHIP FLYING shot-- we can keep the AUDIO of the introduction without the visual and solve this critical problem.

-Maul/Grievous reports to Gunray in the palace by trasmission. Nute's stoic, but clearly not thrilled.
Good, but I take it no close ups of Maul? Or just darkening the hood to complete blackness? That might be for the best, though we'd lose the one true Maul hologram clip, it would make the editing much smoother.


That's one way to go-- I'd try another as well-- using the Maul close ups and darkening the stars in the background to match the dark int. Castle background. If we use the fullscreen version cropped, that will make the job a lot easier and if we can only pull it off for a half a second it will make a huge difference.


Sidenote: The order of the Coruscant sequence should stay as-is. Having ALL the Senate stuff then ALL the Jedi stuff is too much of the same thing continuously. Let them break each other up.


You say this, but have you actually looked at it to try it? There isn't that much material in each category. "ALL" the senate stuff is only a couple minutes. And it completely screws up the flow of the personal story that's going on in the Jedi stuff. Letting the Jedi stuff flow teases out what's really going on in Qui Gonn's head. Cut the way it is makes it all very distant and cold. No momentum of any emotional sort is built up before we shift over to the other side that has no emotional momentum built up. These are two sequences that do not need to "break each other up."

We agreed earlier that we would also cut out the Anakin looks for Padme scene. So keep that in mind when you try looking at this footage. It goes faster as two sequences rather than six scenes.

-Queen reveals her plan -- Qui Gonn tunes out, disappointed (don't even explain the whole thing-- show him disinterested and bring up somber music). Amidala is brave, but this is hopeless...
This is good, I like this a lot.


Awesome. This is where all the tilting of things to Qui Gonn's point of view will really pay off. This ending has always played so hollow because it's told from 4 points of view at the same time with equal weight. That's just not good storytelling. Taking one single point of view makes it all more realistic and dramatic.

-The Jedi fight into the hanger and free the pilots.
I assume you plan on taking this from earlier in the film? I wouldn't, and leave that bit where it was originally.


Oops-- I didn't mean to cross those wires. I agree-- leave it as is.

Sidenote: Overall your plans for the final battles are great, though the key to success will be in the editing.


Yes, and we'll all have ideas to contribute there. The footage is limited enough for us to handle together. I already see the cuts I would make-- I'll do my best to communicate them completely so InfoDroid can do them my way if he doesn't already see it for himself (which is what I guess is more likely).

-From Anakin's p.o.v-- we see Qui Gonn's funeral pyre. No talk to Obi Wan.
I think that exchange between Obi-Wan and Anakin is essential. It's very short but at least establishes something between them.


Have you looked at this one lately? Maybe it would be nice to see Obi Wan tell Anakin that he will be trained, but this is absolutely the most unnatural place for it. Did Obi Wan really let the kid go all this time without telling him? He gathered him, walked to the funeral, lighting the body on fire, etc. without telling Anakin -- the 9 y.o. boy with no home, stripped of his mother, the chosen one-- what was going to happen to him? It's so unlikely. It also comes off like Anakin hadn't thought of it until Qui Gonn was half-way to ashes. "What's going to happen to me now?" Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you... Ugh.

The scene says everything it needs to if we start with the close up of Anakin, then cut to Qui Gonn burning. Then back to Anakin-- he turns to Obi Wan. Obi Wan looks at him. The boy looks back at the fire. Cut to Yoda, etc. Let the music and the images talk. They are so much better than the dialogue here.

Sidenote: Trooperman has said he has the perfect ending music for Episode I; not that I've heard it but chances are it'll work great. Also, though I hold by my opinion that each chapter in the saga should have it's own title, if we can't think of a good enough one, I say go with "Star Wars." It would certainly be a different approach, and add to the stand-alone feel.


Can't think of a good enough one? I thought of a great one imo. You don't like "Fate of the Jedi" I take it? :-( Why not? I think we can easily come up with a great one because this is such a different edit, a different story than any other edit yet. This is Qui Gonn's story, the lone Jedi who discovers the chosen one and sets the Jedi on their only path to escaping the clutches of the Sith. This is the story that casts the die-- there's something in the realm of "Fate of the Jedi" that captures what this episode was supposed to be about. It's not "The Phantom Menace" (although that title fits our edit better than the original) because this is supposed to be a stand alone film with a few loose ends, not just the beginning of a prequel trilogy.

I believe if we kick around ways of stating the core of this film, titles will present themselves.

But then again, I'm a huge fan of Star Wars '77-- and that crawl with no subtitle is lost forever if we don't use it here, so... If Trooperman doesn't mind that we don't have his montage, I'll be happy to make this his Episode I (which shouldn't say "Episode I" on it either, right?) I mean, if it says Episode I, then it needs its own sub-title to be consistent with the other supposed Episodes that that implies.

On the whole, I'm totally up for hearing your rebuttals to my rebuttals. I know that when we both agree on something then it's finally right.

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Originally posted by: C3PX
Sorry about this, but at the risk of continuing the flogging of this poor dead horse (and I promise just one more woopah of the whip and I'm done).

...Now he has a choice, tell Luke his father was a good man and a hero like the galaxy remembers (probably it is throught that Anakin was kill in the purge along with all the other Jedi). Or tell hims his dad is the second most evil man in the universe.
...Perhaps it is even common practice among the Jedi to consider somebody dead when they have turned to the dark side. It could be rather than old Ben lying through his teeth, that he couldn't bear the though of letting Luke know the truth. He probably also never imagined Vader would try to convert Luke and turn him rather than just try to kill him.

Okay, the horse his dead, the whip is broken, and the horse is buried as far as I am concerned, I will not clutter the board with any more of my comments.


First-- don't go away-- stay and comment on Episode I ;-)

But this issue is already laid to bed and YOU WIN! The lie will be there in the end-- I just can't see any of your justifications as anything but... justifications. I would point out that the two choices you give Obi Wan are hardly fair because he can choose both and tell the truth at the same time; "Your father was an honorable and brilliant Jedi, a man who saved my life dozens of times and loved the republic more than life. But he fell under the sway of a horrible greedy creature who seduced your father down a path he did not realize led to destruction until it was too late. Everything good about your father died and what was left was transformed into an agent of fear called Darth Vader." etc.

But instead we're left arguing and making up stuff to justify a lie that wasn't a lie when it was written and which serves some convenient purposes, but undermines the honorable character of Obi Wan. I will agitate for a little justification in ROTS to clear this all up because the movies play out a lot of things to support the notion that telling Luke might endanger him of being discovered by the Sith-- because Jedi can sense emotional distress from across the galaxy during their meditations. This is seen in Episodes II, III, V and VI in various forms. But it isn't ever expressed as the reason they didn't tell Luke the truth. So it's odd, like they played by a rule they never wrote. And they did it in retrospect, by accident, after changing Obi Wan into a mealy mouthed liar. ;-)

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Originally posted by: DaystromX


Sidenote: The order of the Coruscant sequence should stay as-is. Having ALL the Senate stuff then ALL the Jedi stuff is too much of the same thing continuously. Let them break each other up.

I agree. The lighting in the various scenes makes it difficult to envision the scenes together. We'd have to go through a full day with Padme, then go back, and watch the same day again from Qui-Gon's point of view (or the other way around). That just doesn't feel right.

...and it's not accurate. The Senate meeting exterior shot is the same time of day as the first Jedi council shot, so there's no discrepency to worry about that way.


Plus, cutting straight from Qui-Gon in front of the Council to either Qui-Gon talking with Obi-Wan or Anakin in front of the council seems weird.


A hard cut, I agree with you. But a wipe makes it feel natural-- what feels weird is to basically tweak all our Main Character's nerves and then jump over to some other part of the story that could have been wrapped up already. These two groups of scenes are related in space only. They have no thematic connection and thus no benefit from being rubbed onto each other. They just slow each other down.

And, I think by dividing Coruscant into a Padme segment and a Qui-Gon segment actually reduces the emphasis on Qui-Gon. If we follow the order I listed below, I think we keep more focus on Qui-Gon throughout.

We're cutting the scene where Anakin looks for Padme, which leaves us with nine scenes. We can't mess with the order to much, because of the light (one of my favorite parts of the movie, actually). But if we can find a shot of the Senate Building during sunset, then we can put them in this order:
Landing
Qui-Gon telling the Council about Darth Maul
Palpatine talking with Amidala
Anakin's test
Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan talking
The Senate scene
The Council deciding not to train Anakin
Amidala deciding to go back
Leaving


I am totally open to discussing this, especially since you point out the emphasis has to be on Qui Gonn. I love the arranging of Qui Gonn and Obi Wan talking BEFORE the test! But what does the rest of this order of events do to keep that emphasis? It interrupts Qui Gonn's story twice instead of never with the very involved story that Amidala's wrapped up in.

My take is that Amidala's story is so involving that it needs to be handled to a decent conclusion before getting into Qui Gonn's head. This happens by putting them in this order:

Landing
Palpatine talking with Amidala
The Senate scene
Qui-Gon telling the Council about Darth Maul
Anakin's test
Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan talking
The Council deciding not to train Anakin
Amidala deciding to go back
Leaving

This order really energizes the Senate scene in a surprising way. It really is its own little sub story that ends when Amidala goes ahead and votes "no confidence."

With that out of the way, the Jedi stuff can totally breathe-- which is great because it's the heart (as opposed to the head) of this picture. This way, Anakin's test is energized, the talk on the balcony sets Qui Gonn up for a big fall and he gets it right away (after a few excellent shots of the sun setting)

I don't know-- I understand the attraction to intercutting, but I wonder what it really accomplishes better than letting the two sequences play out. I only see things get deminished.

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The Senate meeting exterior shot is the same time of day as the first Jedi council shot, so there's no discrepency to worry about that way.


Huh. You're right. I wonder what I was thinking. In that case, my only real concern is, as a I said before, by dividing the two, you give yourself a long period (okay, five minutes) without any Qui-Gon/Anakin/Jedi stuff. I just think that going so long without any of that stuff breaks up its flow more then intercutting at points were there are already natural pauses does. I dunno. I'll have to try it both ways, and see how it works, once I get my hands on my DVDs.

Oh, and I'm totally on your side, MTHaslett, re. Obi-Wan's lies in ANH. If there's anyway to change it without looking shoddy, do it.
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I actually like the fish being there, but they take a lot of time without achieving the slightest amount of excitement. I had this idea: what if the fish is coming at them, but gets grabbed itself before it grabs them-- that would have the same impact, allow for the same line-- yet not slow us down for a fake scare beat.
Yes, that would work. We see the fish, we think it's going to get them, they never see it, it closes in, but at the last second it's caught by another fish. If you want to give the sequence a proper ending you can have Jar-Jar's bug-eyed reaction and Qui-Gon turning from seeing the event say his Big Fish line. I just feel it needs better closure than the bongo just "heading for that outcropping" and that exchange might provide it.

I totally agree with this-- that's why I want to cut all that stuff and get just to Padme cleaning R2. Without the Queen debriefing scene, the Padme cleaning the droid scene works a lot better. She's cleaning the droid and showing gratitude rather than telling us he deserves it. It's a much stronger character statement this way. It should be tweaked, but it provides an opportunity for Artoo to be a character and for Padme to meet Jar Jar which isn't covered in the magfan edit. I think the cleaning scene is a real undervalued opportunity. But the "debriefing" scene has got to go.
I didn't catch your removal of the report to the Queen scene. Good call and we can rework the R2 scene with the magic of subtitles. Honestly I've totally forgotten how that scene plays. I haven't watched the original Episodes I and II in over a year (chossing instead the MagnolisFan versions). I should probably do that to get a complete feel of what we have to work with.

I don't know-- I personally feel like you that it's great. I believe it should stay because it somehow feels OT, even though I know it's more of a cheap joke/reference. It added a bit of quirkiness to Watto. Can we keep it?

Funny; I thought you of all people would be against it as it is one of those jokes referring to the next film. But I'd be up for it if you are if you don't think it's too blatant a reference.

Anakin's Dream: I think a combination of tone poems and quick flashes of obscured visuals would work, taking advantage of the "waking up" scene. The one thing I don't particularly like about Trooperman's nightmare sequence is that it's overlayed with Anakin in bed. He says it works best that way though, so there it is. Also, as I understand it the Episode III dreams are going to be reworked as well (just FYI). The best way to address this would be to put it aside, and after we put the majority of the film together see if it is better served by a dream or not.

Qui-Gon on Tatooine: Good points. I'm all for them is they can be smoothly edited. That's my greatest concern; we don't want things to seem cut and paste. I do wonder though if Qui-Gon betting for Anakin's freedom will be properly conveyed in just the last scene between him and Watto.

But if you imagine a different version-- Qui Gonn collapses on the floor; Obi Wan and Anakin rush in- Qui Gonn addresses them about that thing-- the ship takes off-- we cut to the EXT. SHIP FLYING shot-- we can keep the AUDIO of the introduction without the visual and solve this critical problem.

Excellent. Though I'm sure you agree that "You're a Jedi too?" should be cut.

That's one way to go-- I'd try another as well-- using the Maul close ups and darkening the stars in the background to match the dark int. Castle background. If we use the fullscreen version cropped, that will make the job a lot easier and if we can only pull it off for a half a second it will make a huge difference.

I totally understand your desire to use the "official" Maul hologram, but think of the opportunities that would open up for dialogue if we consistently use Sidious' hologram and black-out the hood (giving him the appearance of Death). Throw in the official hologram and it ends up looking cut and paste.

Coruscant: I guess I'm just a fan of A-B-A-B-A storytelling. But sure, let's try it your way and see what we get.

Qui-Gon's funeral: Excellent points. If we want a Qui-Gon line or two in Anakin's head, the Batman Begins dialogue would be perfect as there is a fire in the background already. Though I think it would interrupt the musically-driven feel and take away from the final tone poem as Anakin flies back to Naboo (which I really hope we can pull off).

Well if we're going for that stand-alone feel, giving this episode a subtitle would sort of undermine that, wouldn't you think? So, "Star Wars" it is?
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(Sorry it took so long to comment, MTH, but some of us work the night-shift. )

I guess I'll be the tie-breaker here. I've read through all of this and I have to say that I'm completely on MTHaslett's side of the boat for this film. His ideas are clear, concise and logical. (Not that yours aren't, CC.) But, I buy his version of the story 100%.

I say we take this as the official outline and immediately bring the focus of this thread to the discussion of more details for the beginning of the film. Particularly, we need to go more in depth on the character of Nute Gunray and exactly what he wants from Naboo and Amidala.

First off, how do we link the slavery aspect to what she mentions about the "Trade Boycott"?

And I'm really interested in adding an Ancient Egyptian-like conqueror quality to the Neimoidians, possibly including something about Nute wanting to be named a diety. I think this could elevate his character to a more classical level of evil. Furthermore, on a more contemporary level, we could mirror something akin to a Saddam/Kuwait/Desert Storm-like situation.

I must say, however, that although I'm all in favor of this feeling like a stand-alone film, it's still the beginning of a saga and needs a subtitle like the rest. I'm not sure if "Fate of the Jedi" is it. Only because I don't think it's clear you're referring to Qui-Gon, but it seems more like you're speaking of the Jedi as a whole, whose "fate" isn't truly known until Episode III. Plus, not to mention the whole "Return of the Jedi" similarity, or maybe that was the point...

But, what about something like "The Battle Begins", "Knights of the Republic", "Warriors of the Force", or even "Duel of the Fates"?

If you're wanting to keep with the "pulpy" feel, something like "The Great Droid Invasion", "Cloud of Evil", or "The Creeping Fear" LOL! or how about "Crouching Rancor, Hidden Bantha"? ...er... maybe not.

I've got it! "Star Wars: Episode I - Anakin's Day At The Ranch".



--InfoDroid

P.S. - I am in need of a full-screen version of Episode I. Maybe someone can help me out.

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Alright, last time a took a few minutes to skim through my episode one project on womble to see how drastic of cuts I could get away with. I cut the whole Gungan city thing. It plays a little rough I suppose, but with a subtitled Jar Jar it could be made very smooth. Even if you subtitle Gungan city, you still end up with a cgi sequence of a bunch of goofy looking camel people. What I did was end the meeting Jar Jar scene with "comon, lets get out of here before more droids arrive" "More? More did you say?" and Jar Jar runs after them, the next cut I put in of them was watching them entering Theed from a distance using the very end of the waterfall sequence. This could run really smooth with titling Jar Jar to say he can take them to the city, if we can find a way to make Qui-Gon say "The City? Can you take us there" rather than "A city? Can you take us there?" Then the whole rest of the scene could work great until jar jar says 'comon this way'.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Quick feedback - will try to get more detailed later. Have to agree with Infodroid that MTH's outline is excellent, and is 90% good to go. A few random notes:

"There's always a bigger fish" - the reason this scene sucks in TPM is not only because the same thing happens twice, but because our heroes escape by blind luck. There is never a real sense of danger and Qui-Gon's reaction makes no sense in the circumstances. However, if it could be suggested that Qui-Gon uses the force to influence the "bigger fish" - his line takes on a whole new complexion.

Order of the coruscant scenes - there are good points supporting alternate choices here. I think the only way to know is to cut them in two or three ways, watch them and then decide.

Nute = megalomaniacal Egyptian conqueror sounds good to me. Love those Passion voices.

Title - agree with InfoDroid that it should have one, but also don't like Fate of the Jedi (sorry MTH, that's about the only thing I didn't like). How about The Chosen One? Maybe not. I know it sounds crazy, but I actually like The Phantom Menace. Just because MagFan and ADM had new titles, doesn't mean you have to. I assume you won't be changing Revenge of the Sith?
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Real quick notion on the title:

-It does deserve a title
-Deciding a good one is part of the fun, something GL took for granted.
-You should stay away from an "OF THE" title. Ya know, Return OF THE Jedi, Revenge OF THE sith, Balance OF THE force, Shroud OF THE darkside......and those are films and edits we already have. I just think it's too easy to have an OF THE title, your just thinking of two star wars like words to back both ends up....
- A new Hope and The Empire strikes back already tell us we don't need to have an "of the" title to have a good one. And I think The Phantom Menace was a great title, we all just have a bad association with it due to the film. Attack of the Clones: I think we all were a little stumped on that one and I would have liked it better if it were THE Attack of the Clones instead. But oh well....

Some titles I have thought of:

Enter the Dark Path (not really related to EP.1)
Enter the Forbidden Path
A New Revelation
Quest for Freedom (would help with all the slave issues)
Choice of Destiny
A Threat from Within

None of these are great, just old ideas and I was trying to think of something more than "OF THE" titles.......which we could all spend all day listing, it's really that easy. And maybe because it is soo easy we will have to go the way of the "OF THE" title. But we don't do things the easy way in here ,do we? Just some thoughts....

P.S. By the way I like "The Chosen One" alot, it would help a beginner to the saga understand right off the bat what they are looking for. However, it does put all the emphasis on Anakin as opposed to the Qui-Gon / Invasion attention we are creating. Very interstin though.

Oh and MTHaslett, OUTSTANDING synopsis, can't wait to see this thing fleshed out, good job guys!
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The Chosen One would be a cool title, although it sounds funny as Episode One: The Chosen One.

It might not fit here, but I'd like to see one of these edits be called The Dark Times.

I like the idea of the Egyptian influence on the Neimodians. Besides, I know that Nute and the rest of those guys's hats (diadems) are modeled after Egyptian ones. On the subject of the Egyptians and slavery as we have mentioned, are we talking about the Neimodians trying to enslave the Gungans? Could make things real interesting.

I was watching the TPM trailer this morning and remembered the buzz I got with the "Anakin Skywalker, meet Obi-wan Kenobi" line. That's how this scene ought to play out.

And lastly, the end of the cut scenes documentary on the TPM bonus disc has extra footage of the space battle and more Darth Maul fight footage. Are you planning on using that?
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And lastly, the end of the cut scenes documentary on the TPM bonus disc has extra footage of the space battle and more Darth Maul fight footage. Are you planning on using that?


That footage is great, but a soundtrack would have to be created for it, since somebody is talking while they are showing the clips. You can hear it though, so someone would at least have something to go on.
"You were so preoccupied with whether or not you could...you never stopped to think if you should." - Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park
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Originally posted by: Commander Courage
Yes, .... the fish, we think it's going to get them, they never see it, it closes in, but at the last second it's caught by another fish. If you want to give the sequence a proper ending you can have Jar-Jar's bug-eyed reaction and Qui-Gon turning from seeing the event say his Big Fish line. I just feel it needs better closure than the bongo just "heading for that outcropping" and that exchange might provide it.

Exactly. Someone suggested a force moment-- makes sense to me.

I didn't catch your removal of the report to the Queen scene. Good call and we can rework the R2 scene with the magic of subtitles. Honestly I've totally forgotten how that scene plays. I haven't watched the original Episodes I and II in over a year (chossing instead the MagnolisFan versions). I should probably do that to get a complete feel of what we have to work with.

Please do-- You'll see a lot more opportunities like this one. MagFan was brutal in his own way. I think the opening 10 seconds of ours are going to benefit greatly by using stuff he cut in a different way. This scene too is an opportunity-- a better way to intro Padme than the "bitch, go clean this droid" debriefing.

Funny; I thought you of all people would be against it as it is one of those jokes referring to the next film. But I'd be up for it if you are if you don't think it's too blatant a reference.

I think it's a great reference-- actually playing better now as the Episode IV performance will be a full orchestration of that tune Watto was humming.

Anakin's Dream: I think a combination of tone poems and quick flashes of obscured visuals would work, taking advantage of the "waking up" scene. The one thing I don't particularly like about Trooperman's nightmare sequence is that it's overlayed with Anakin in bed. He says it works best that way though, so there it is. Also, as I understand it the Episode III dreams are going to be reworked as well (just FYI). The best way to address this would be to put it aside, and after we put the majority of the film together see if it is better served by a dream or not.

Again, I hold off judgment until we become clear what the dream is trying to accomplish. I like getting into Anakin's head on the one hand, but have big concerns that it will undo the focus on Qui Gonn that we need to maintain. A similar problem occurs in the movie Philadelphia-- the movie's clearly from one character's p.o.v. until we get a dream from another person and it undermines the emotional core. I think the best solution will come from stating a specific hard-target for what the dream is achieving. What purpose does it serve?

Qui-Gon on Tatooine: Good points. I'm all for them is they can be smoothly edited. That's my greatest concern; we don't want things to seem cut and paste. I do wonder though if Qui-Gon betting for Anakin's freedom will be properly conveyed in just the last scene between him and Watto.


It won't be crystal clear what's up until Qui Gonn announces Anakin's freedom in Anakin's house. That's fine because the scene will play at first to be all about Qui Gonn collecting ship parts. Then he mentions the boy and Watto argues. Qui Gonn wins and we wonder what that's about (although we sense Qui Gonn always gets what he wants and he clearly wants the boy)... Then he announces the truth Anakin's house. We can smooth this out.

I'm sure you agree that "You're a Jedi too?" should be cut.


Totally.

I totally understand your desire to use the "official" Maul hologram, but think of the opportunities that would open up for dialogue if we consistently use Sidious' hologram and black-out the hood (giving him the appearance of Death). Throw in the official hologram and it ends up looking cut and paste.


Well it can't look cut and paste. I don't know why we can't try. The dialogue can be arranged so that the "official" hologram is actually replying by standing there stoically-- it can be made to feel organic. That is, of course, the final test.

Coruscant: I guess I'm just a fan of A-B-A-B-A storytelling. But sure, let's try it your way and see what we get.


Seems the wisest way to go is to look at the different options. We all want the best flow. I just went ahead and convinced myself that I can see it already. InfoDroid will show us.

Qui-Gon's funeral: Excellent points. If we want a Qui-Gon line or two in Anakin's head, the Batman Begins dialogue would be perfect as there is a fire in the background already. Though I think it would interrupt the musically-driven feel and take away from the final tone poem as Anakin flies back to Naboo (which I really hope we can pull off).


I've been thinking about that poem and I think it will work best as the summation audio over the whole "look how it's all come out" montage that shows us how each battlefront ends as well as how Anakin is processing with Qui Gonn's help. It can really bring the whole ending home, I believe.


I wish I had more time to respond to other posters. Later, I guess, but I'm grateful for all the kind words. Especially from our leader, InfoDroid.

As to the title, I like "The Chosen One" okay, although Episode I/Chosen One has a funny feel.

"Fate of the Jedi" ("of the" issues aside) is meant to capture BOTH Qui Gonn AND the entire Jedi Council because the fate of both are decided in this movie. Finding the Chosen One determines that there will be a Saga. It is Qui Gonn's fate to find the Chosen One and die convincing the council that he's right. It's the council's fate to resist the Chosen One and thus start their own downfall. It's Anakin's fate to become a Jedi. It's a decent title, capturing the spirit of the story. "The Chosen One" has the same kind of multi-p.o.v. meaning to it. It's capturing that central issue of waking up the Jedi council that should be reflected in the title--

I think "The Phantom Menace" is a title that refers completely to the Sith, and thus to the sequels more than to this particular story. There is a phantom menace in this story, but no one faces it or even becomes clearly aware of it except to wonder "did we see the master or the apprentice?"

Egyptian God Nemoidians indeed sound promising. THe only thing to make sure is that such a character would go into cahoots with a Sith Lord, since Maul/Grievous is the concrete proof that Gunray entered a deal with Sidious and is actually doing his bidding as part of a power-grab. The question to answer is what does the Egyptian God-head get from Sidious and what is he doing for Sidious?

Removing Sidious' appearances does not remove the responsibility of being absolutely clear in our minds that he is the Ultimate Architect of these battles. In fact, Sidious achieves ALL his aims. He only wants the vote of no confidence. He couldn't care less about the Naboo et al. He's headed for the Emperor's chair no matter what happens on Naboo.

MOre later, fellow Ranch hands!

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Originally posted by: tjdavis1138
And lastly, the end of the cut scenes documentary on the TPM bonus disc has extra footage of the space battle and more Darth Maul fight footage. Are you planning on using that?


That footage is great, but a soundtrack would have to be created for it, since somebody is talking while they are showing the clips. You can hear it though, so someone would at least have something to go on.


I looked at this footage and it is great-- but the quality is lacking :-(

I'm all for using it though. The potential of building a great space battle goes up exponentially by putting all the other fronts into utter and complete failure. ONLY Anakin's battle can succeed. Only the space battle matters (tho we would like to kill Maul too).

Thus, we need to log in all the space footage and construct a clear path through it that takes best advantage of it all. I think this will ultimately be one of the great parts of our edit.

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Yes, I thought of The Chosen One as a good way to focus the beginning of the Saga on Anakin, who will become the central character, as well as more broadly on Qui-Gon's quest and dealings with the council (the Ranch edit) and away from the political maneuverings and rise of Palpatine (the Lucas edit). But then I also didn't like the sound of Episode I: The Chosen One. I just think Fate of the Jedi is too close to Return of the Jedi. Maybe Trooperman has an idea?