Originally posted by: Commander Courage
-We hear Jar Jar's back story, but no giant fish grabs them
I think one fish (as in MagnoliaFan's version) is fine. Every Star Wars movie needs a creature after all, and would would want to lose Liam Neeson's extremely Irish line-reading of "There's always a bigger fish."
I actually like the fish being there, but they take a lot of time without achieving the slightest amount of excitement. I had this idea: what if the fish is coming at them, but gets grabbed itself before it grabs them-- that would have the same impact, allow for the same line-- yet not slow us down for a fake scare beat.
-Padme cleans artoo and meets Jar Jar. They land on Tatooine.
Never liked that scene, or the whole concept of the "Queen" ordering Padme to clean R2. Just dub the name of another handmaiden over "Padme" and cut the cleaning scene scene. Oh, and the lines "It is to be commended" and "It deserves our gratitude" need to go entirely.
I totally agree with this-- that's why I want to cut all that stuff and get just to Padme cleaning R2. Without the Queen debriefing scene, the Padme cleaning the droid scene works a lot better. She's cleaning the droid and showing gratitude rather than telling us he deserves it. It's a much stronger character statement this way. It should be tweaked, but it provides an opportunity for Artoo to be a character and for Padme to meet Jar Jar which isn't covered in the magfan edit. I think the cleaning scene is a real undervalued opportunity. But the "debriefing" scene has got to go.
Yes, and we'll all have ideas to contribute there. The footage is limited enough for us to handle together. I already see the cuts I would make-- I'll do my best to communicate them completely so InfoDroid can do them my way if he doesn't already see it for himself (which is what I guess is more likely).
-From Anakin's p.o.v-- we see Qui Gonn's funeral pyre. No talk to Obi Wan.
I think that exchange between Obi-Wan and Anakin is essential. It's very short but at least establishes something between them.
Have you looked at this one lately? Maybe it would be nice to see Obi Wan tell Anakin that he will be trained, but this is absolutely the most unnatural place for it. Did Obi Wan really let the kid go all this time without telling him? He gathered him, walked to the funeral, lighting the body on fire, etc. without telling Anakin -- the 9 y.o. boy with no home, stripped of his mother, the chosen one-- what was going to happen to him? It's so unlikely. It also comes off like Anakin hadn't thought of it until Qui Gonn was half-way to ashes. "What's going to happen to me now?" Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you... Ugh.
The scene says everything it needs to if we start with the close up of Anakin, then cut to Qui Gonn burning. Then back to Anakin-- he turns to Obi Wan. Obi Wan looks at him. The boy looks back at the fire. Cut to Yoda, etc. Let the music and the images talk. They are so much better than the dialogue here.
Sidenote: Trooperman has said he has the perfect ending music for Episode I; not that I've heard it but chances are it'll work great. Also, though I hold by my opinion that each chapter in the saga should have it's own title, if we can't think of a good enough one, I say go with "Star Wars." It would certainly be a different approach, and add to the stand-alone feel.
-We hear Jar Jar's back story, but no giant fish grabs them
I think one fish (as in MagnoliaFan's version) is fine. Every Star Wars movie needs a creature after all, and would would want to lose Liam Neeson's extremely Irish line-reading of "There's always a bigger fish."
I actually like the fish being there, but they take a lot of time without achieving the slightest amount of excitement. I had this idea: what if the fish is coming at them, but gets grabbed itself before it grabs them-- that would have the same impact, allow for the same line-- yet not slow us down for a fake scare beat.
-Padme cleans artoo and meets Jar Jar. They land on Tatooine.
Never liked that scene, or the whole concept of the "Queen" ordering Padme to clean R2. Just dub the name of another handmaiden over "Padme" and cut the cleaning scene scene. Oh, and the lines "It is to be commended" and "It deserves our gratitude" need to go entirely.
I totally agree with this-- that's why I want to cut all that stuff and get just to Padme cleaning R2. Without the Queen debriefing scene, the Padme cleaning the droid scene works a lot better. She's cleaning the droid and showing gratitude rather than telling us he deserves it. It's a much stronger character statement this way. It should be tweaked, but it provides an opportunity for Artoo to be a character and for Padme to meet Jar Jar which isn't covered in the magfan edit. I think the cleaning scene is a real undervalued opportunity. But the "debriefing" scene has got to go.
-Find Watoo's shop, Qui Gonn talks to Watoo out back
Would it be ripping-off Magnolia Fan to have Watto hum the Cantina song? I always liked that bit, but it probably wouldn't fit with our approach would it?
I don't know-- I personally feel like you that it's great. I believe it should stay because it somehow feels OT, even though I know it's more of a cheap joke/reference. It added a bit of quirkiness to Watto. Can we keep it?
Oops-- I didn't mean to cross those wires. I agree-- leave it as is.
Sidenote: Overall your plans for the final battles are great, though the key to success will be in the editing.
Would it be ripping-off Magnolia Fan to have Watto hum the Cantina song? I always liked that bit, but it probably wouldn't fit with our approach would it?
I don't know-- I personally feel like you that it's great. I believe it should stay because it somehow feels OT, even though I know it's more of a cheap joke/reference. It added a bit of quirkiness to Watto. Can we keep it?
-Maul/Grievous lands and sends out his probe droids.
As I suggested before I would move this to after the pod activation scene and follow it with an Anakin dream. What is the concenus on that, btw? I'm all for it if we can make it obscure and mysterious enough.
I haven't been convinced a dream is necessary, but I like the idea. Once we do a dream, it starts making Anakin the Main Character and I think the story is stronger if we stay completely with Qui Gonn -- not enough good Anakin footage is there to achieve a great Anakin Main Character story. He's much better as the character who is changed and affected by the Main Character -- the partner in the central relationship.
But I'm more interested in Drama-- and my placement of Maul's arrival is about energizing the Tatooine stuff -- until he arrives there is no threat. So they won't get the parts they need-- so they won't get to Coruscant-- yeah yeah. But what's the immediate danger? Maul's arrival keeps the story moving. Who's that guy? Is that the threat Nute mentioned? Is he gonna find them? He looks awesome, let's use him.
Awesome. This is where all the tilting of things to Qui Gonn's point of view will really pay off. This ending has always played so hollow because it's told from 4 points of view at the same time with equal weight. That's just not good storytelling. Taking one single point of view makes it all more realistic and dramatic.
-The Jedi fight into the hanger and free the pilots.
I assume you plan on taking this from earlier in the film? I wouldn't, and leave that bit where it was originally.
As I suggested before I would move this to after the pod activation scene and follow it with an Anakin dream. What is the concenus on that, btw? I'm all for it if we can make it obscure and mysterious enough.
I haven't been convinced a dream is necessary, but I like the idea. Once we do a dream, it starts making Anakin the Main Character and I think the story is stronger if we stay completely with Qui Gonn -- not enough good Anakin footage is there to achieve a great Anakin Main Character story. He's much better as the character who is changed and affected by the Main Character -- the partner in the central relationship.
But I'm more interested in Drama-- and my placement of Maul's arrival is about energizing the Tatooine stuff -- until he arrives there is no threat. So they won't get the parts they need-- so they won't get to Coruscant-- yeah yeah. But what's the immediate danger? Maul's arrival keeps the story moving. Who's that guy? Is that the threat Nute mentioned? Is he gonna find them? He looks awesome, let's use him.
-Anakin shows Padme C3P0 after dinner.
Curious, why the shuffling of scene order here?
Because it totally interrupts the flow where it is now-- the story is about helping the Queen. The story is already floundering when the sandstorm hits-- we need to get to that dinner scene asap. The 3P0 scene is bad enough where ever it goes-- it's just more welcome after we know where the story is going. Plus it starts to back up the kid's claims of greatness better here, immediately following his "fastest pod-racer ever built" lines. It feels just plain weird to me where it is in TPM.
You say this, but have you actually looked at it to try it? There isn't that much material in each category. "ALL" the senate stuff is only a couple minutes. And it completely screws up the flow of the personal story that's going on in the Jedi stuff. Letting the Jedi stuff flow teases out what's really going on in Qui Gonn's head. Cut the way it is makes it all very distant and cold. No momentum of any emotional sort is built up before we shift over to the other side that has no emotional momentum built up. These are two sequences that do not need to "break each other up."
We agreed earlier that we would also cut out the Anakin looks for Padme scene. So keep that in mind when you try looking at this footage. It goes faster as two sequences rather than six scenes.
-Queen reveals her plan -- Qui Gonn tunes out, disappointed (don't even explain the whole thing-- show him disinterested and bring up somber music). Amidala is brave, but this is hopeless...
This is good, I like this a lot.
Curious, why the shuffling of scene order here?
Because it totally interrupts the flow where it is now-- the story is about helping the Queen. The story is already floundering when the sandstorm hits-- we need to get to that dinner scene asap. The 3P0 scene is bad enough where ever it goes-- it's just more welcome after we know where the story is going. Plus it starts to back up the kid's claims of greatness better here, immediately following his "fastest pod-racer ever built" lines. It feels just plain weird to me where it is in TPM.
Sidenote: You seem to be pushing back Qui-Gon's notice/interest in Anakin's potential. Moving the conversation between him and Shmi is an interesting suggestion, but only if it can be edited smoothly. If not, it should stay as-si. Seeing his bet to free Anakin is essential though, IMO. It makes the stakes even higher: although he doesn't know it, Anakin is racing for his freedom. Moving the probe droid report to Maul up does make sense though, as the one Qui-Gon cut down is obviously not the one who returns to Maul.
The Shmi conversation can be moved very smoothly-- it actually opens up that goodbye scene much better.
Seeing the bet to free Anakin is essential? Well, I may have agreed at one time-- but I can't anymore. The idea that Qui Gonn has already made up his mind about the boy doesn't raise tension in the pod race -- it drains it completely. Did you really think the boy wouldn't win? I think the pod-race is awesome, but the end was never really in doubt and the idea that he was racing for his freedom was the furthest thing from my mind.
The bet makes the race a forgone conclusion -- Qui Gonn's side bet makes it unimaginable that Anakin could lose.
The worst damage it does is makes the podrace all about it's outcome-- there is nothing important being learned during that long sequence. It's just watching a pair of dice roll and roll and roll until it comes up "7." But if Qui Gonn hasn't made up his mind about the boy-- the race is full of tension and becomes what you want it to be-- a race for freedom. We know if Qui Gonn wants the boy, he'll figure out a way to get him. But this way it's the race that decides whether Qui Gonn wants him or not. As he says, he didn't come here to free slaves. But he will free the chosen one-- if that's who the boy turns out to be. That's the discovery Qui Gonn should be making as the kid wins this one after falling impossibly behind.
Imagine it my way for a second at least-- try it on.
That's one way to go-- I'd try another as well-- using the Maul close ups and darkening the stars in the background to match the dark int. Castle background. If we use the fullscreen version cropped, that will make the job a lot easier and if we can only pull it off for a half a second it will make a huge difference.
Sidenote: The order of the Coruscant sequence should stay as-is. Having ALL the Senate stuff then ALL the Jedi stuff is too much of the same thing continuously. Let them break each other up.
The Shmi conversation can be moved very smoothly-- it actually opens up that goodbye scene much better.
Seeing the bet to free Anakin is essential? Well, I may have agreed at one time-- but I can't anymore. The idea that Qui Gonn has already made up his mind about the boy doesn't raise tension in the pod race -- it drains it completely. Did you really think the boy wouldn't win? I think the pod-race is awesome, but the end was never really in doubt and the idea that he was racing for his freedom was the furthest thing from my mind.
The bet makes the race a forgone conclusion -- Qui Gonn's side bet makes it unimaginable that Anakin could lose.
The worst damage it does is makes the podrace all about it's outcome-- there is nothing important being learned during that long sequence. It's just watching a pair of dice roll and roll and roll until it comes up "7." But if Qui Gonn hasn't made up his mind about the boy-- the race is full of tension and becomes what you want it to be-- a race for freedom. We know if Qui Gonn wants the boy, he'll figure out a way to get him. But this way it's the race that decides whether Qui Gonn wants him or not. As he says, he didn't come here to free slaves. But he will free the chosen one-- if that's who the boy turns out to be. That's the discovery Qui Gonn should be making as the kid wins this one after falling impossibly behind.
Imagine it my way for a second at least-- try it on.
-Anakin says goodbye to his mother and leaves (improved with tone poem, if possible)
-Maul sees Anakin for a moment, keeps fighting (don't know if we can do this)
Little things we should try if we can.
Exactly my thought.
I would have agreed before-- but now not so much. Why is it essential? This isn't the Obi Wan story. The reason I think it has to go is that Lloyd's performance of those lines is more than off-- it is the absolute inarguable personification of a boy who hasn't got a care in the world. There is no way that kid is thinking about having lost his mom. He is not thinking about the Sith who almost killed him. That kid is just glad to meet Ewan McGregor for some reason. And that KILLS the story.
But if you imagine a different version-- Qui Gonn collapses on the floor; Obi Wan and Anakin rush in- Qui Gonn addresses them about that thing-- the ship takes off-- we cut to the EXT. SHIP FLYING shot-- we can keep the AUDIO of the introduction without the visual and solve this critical problem.
-Maul/Grievous reports to Gunray in the palace by trasmission. Nute's stoic, but clearly not thrilled.
Good, but I take it no close ups of Maul? Or just darkening the hood to complete blackness? That might be for the best, though we'd lose the one true Maul hologram clip, it would make the editing much smoother.
-Maul sees Anakin for a moment, keeps fighting (don't know if we can do this)
Little things we should try if we can.
Exactly my thought.
-(cut the intro of Anakin to Obi Wan -- it's too upbeat) Fly away--
Agree about the upbeatness of it, but it is essential nonetheless. Cutting "You're a Jedi too?" would help. If you wanted to go really extreme with it, just mute all Anakin's dialogue in the exchange and have a clip of ominous music or something.
Agree about the upbeatness of it, but it is essential nonetheless. Cutting "You're a Jedi too?" would help. If you wanted to go really extreme with it, just mute all Anakin's dialogue in the exchange and have a clip of ominous music or something.
I would have agreed before-- but now not so much. Why is it essential? This isn't the Obi Wan story. The reason I think it has to go is that Lloyd's performance of those lines is more than off-- it is the absolute inarguable personification of a boy who hasn't got a care in the world. There is no way that kid is thinking about having lost his mom. He is not thinking about the Sith who almost killed him. That kid is just glad to meet Ewan McGregor for some reason. And that KILLS the story.
But if you imagine a different version-- Qui Gonn collapses on the floor; Obi Wan and Anakin rush in- Qui Gonn addresses them about that thing-- the ship takes off-- we cut to the EXT. SHIP FLYING shot-- we can keep the AUDIO of the introduction without the visual and solve this critical problem.
-Maul/Grievous reports to Gunray in the palace by trasmission. Nute's stoic, but clearly not thrilled.
Good, but I take it no close ups of Maul? Or just darkening the hood to complete blackness? That might be for the best, though we'd lose the one true Maul hologram clip, it would make the editing much smoother.
That's one way to go-- I'd try another as well-- using the Maul close ups and darkening the stars in the background to match the dark int. Castle background. If we use the fullscreen version cropped, that will make the job a lot easier and if we can only pull it off for a half a second it will make a huge difference.
Sidenote: The order of the Coruscant sequence should stay as-is. Having ALL the Senate stuff then ALL the Jedi stuff is too much of the same thing continuously. Let them break each other up.
You say this, but have you actually looked at it to try it? There isn't that much material in each category. "ALL" the senate stuff is only a couple minutes. And it completely screws up the flow of the personal story that's going on in the Jedi stuff. Letting the Jedi stuff flow teases out what's really going on in Qui Gonn's head. Cut the way it is makes it all very distant and cold. No momentum of any emotional sort is built up before we shift over to the other side that has no emotional momentum built up. These are two sequences that do not need to "break each other up."
We agreed earlier that we would also cut out the Anakin looks for Padme scene. So keep that in mind when you try looking at this footage. It goes faster as two sequences rather than six scenes.
-Queen reveals her plan -- Qui Gonn tunes out, disappointed (don't even explain the whole thing-- show him disinterested and bring up somber music). Amidala is brave, but this is hopeless...
This is good, I like this a lot.
Awesome. This is where all the tilting of things to Qui Gonn's point of view will really pay off. This ending has always played so hollow because it's told from 4 points of view at the same time with equal weight. That's just not good storytelling. Taking one single point of view makes it all more realistic and dramatic.
-The Jedi fight into the hanger and free the pilots.
I assume you plan on taking this from earlier in the film? I wouldn't, and leave that bit where it was originally.
Oops-- I didn't mean to cross those wires. I agree-- leave it as is.
Sidenote: Overall your plans for the final battles are great, though the key to success will be in the editing.
Yes, and we'll all have ideas to contribute there. The footage is limited enough for us to handle together. I already see the cuts I would make-- I'll do my best to communicate them completely so InfoDroid can do them my way if he doesn't already see it for himself (which is what I guess is more likely).
-From Anakin's p.o.v-- we see Qui Gonn's funeral pyre. No talk to Obi Wan.
I think that exchange between Obi-Wan and Anakin is essential. It's very short but at least establishes something between them.
Have you looked at this one lately? Maybe it would be nice to see Obi Wan tell Anakin that he will be trained, but this is absolutely the most unnatural place for it. Did Obi Wan really let the kid go all this time without telling him? He gathered him, walked to the funeral, lighting the body on fire, etc. without telling Anakin -- the 9 y.o. boy with no home, stripped of his mother, the chosen one-- what was going to happen to him? It's so unlikely. It also comes off like Anakin hadn't thought of it until Qui Gonn was half-way to ashes. "What's going to happen to me now?" Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you... Ugh.
The scene says everything it needs to if we start with the close up of Anakin, then cut to Qui Gonn burning. Then back to Anakin-- he turns to Obi Wan. Obi Wan looks at him. The boy looks back at the fire. Cut to Yoda, etc. Let the music and the images talk. They are so much better than the dialogue here.
Sidenote: Trooperman has said he has the perfect ending music for Episode I; not that I've heard it but chances are it'll work great. Also, though I hold by my opinion that each chapter in the saga should have it's own title, if we can't think of a good enough one, I say go with "Star Wars." It would certainly be a different approach, and add to the stand-alone feel.
Can't think of a good enough one? I thought of a great one imo. You don't like "Fate of the Jedi" I take it? :-( Why not? I think we can easily come up with a great one because this is such a different edit, a different story than any other edit yet. This is Qui Gonn's story, the lone Jedi who discovers the chosen one and sets the Jedi on their only path to escaping the clutches of the Sith. This is the story that casts the die-- there's something in the realm of "Fate of the Jedi" that captures what this episode was supposed to be about. It's not "The Phantom Menace" (although that title fits our edit better than the original) because this is supposed to be a stand alone film with a few loose ends, not just the beginning of a prequel trilogy.
I believe if we kick around ways of stating the core of this film, titles will present themselves.
But then again, I'm a huge fan of Star Wars '77-- and that crawl with no subtitle is lost forever if we don't use it here, so... If Trooperman doesn't mind that we don't have his montage, I'll be happy to make this his Episode I (which shouldn't say "Episode I" on it either, right?) I mean, if it says Episode I, then it needs its own sub-title to be consistent with the other supposed Episodes that that implies.
On the whole, I'm totally up for hearing your rebuttals to my rebuttals. I know that when we both agree on something then it's finally right.