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The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread — Page 6

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Originally posted by: Commander Courage


-This thread is again a testament to the superiority of ESB.


Ha!

Well, I'm a "Star Wars '77" fan meself.

But as far as the saga goes -- ESB is the keystone.

Before ESB, it was the Adventures of Luke Skywalker-- but once Vader became Anakin, the rest of the Saga crystalized into what we have now... or what we are trying to polish in this thread. So it's little wonder that ESB needs the least work -- it's the culprit who caused all the rest of the damage to the nearly perfect story that stood alone before it. ;-) And it's a beautiful, awesome movie.

I have a side pet project, though, that is not something I expect to see a lot of support for. But it would finally set this saga right for the 7 year old inside me who loved Star Wars just the way it was. I call it:

The "Star Wars Part II" edit.

This would be a sequel to "Star Wars '77." It violates nothing as originally conceived -- Vader is not Luke's father, but a henchman in the Empire. He is close with the Emperor, but he does not hold rank above local governors like Tarkin. Darth Vader killed Luke's father, a Jedi Knight who was the best star pilot in the Galaxy and a good friend. Vader was once a pupil of Obi Wan's before he turned to evil. The Millenium Falcon is a piece of junk with modifications, not "the fastest ship in the fleet." We don't get sidetracked by Jabba. We don't get sidetracked by Bespin. We just tell another adventure.

The structure is remeniscent of "The Godfather Part II." It tells two stories at once -- a story set in the past shows the origin of Vader and his role in the rise of the Empire/death of Anakin Skywalker -- and this is intercut with a second story about Luke's training and the Rebel's fight against a second Death Star.

Basically, the Luke story is the first half of ESB blended into the second half of ROTJ. Think of the Luke stuff as the "Michael Corleone" story and the past story as the "Young Vito/Robert DeNiro" story.

With The Demon Hunter's "Migraine Maker" scene, we'll see Vader kill Anakin. The final shots of ROTS allow us to see Vader watching the construction of Death Star II from the deck of the same ship where he learns the Rebels and Skywalker are hiding on Hoth.

The Rebels escape from Hoth, Luke goes to Degobah and Han takes Leia on the run. But when they charge the bridge of the Star Destroyer in the asteroid field, Han ACTUALLY make the jump to lightspeed and escapes to join the Rebel convoy.

Luke finishes his training, receives his orders from Yoda to "face Vader-r" and he runs off to join the convoy too.

A shortened battle of Endor plays out as Luke surrenders to Vader, to protect his friends. He is taken to the Emperor who temps him toward the dark side. Vader said the "son of Skywalker will join us or die" and the Emperor thinks he can make it happen. Finally, Luke cracks -- gives into his emotions and attacks -- he and Vader really go at it. He defeats Vader, but refuses to kill him-- refusing the Dark Side to finally become a Jedi "like my father before me."

THe Emperor says "Very well," and starts blasting away with the lightening. Vader watches, wounded and glad to see Skywalker dying. This would kill Luke -- But the Excelsior crashes into Death Star II, causing a powerful blast, erupting up the shaft of the Emperor's chamber -- a blast that nearly collapses the tower and topples the Emperor into the shaft. Vader nearly goes too, but he escapes as does Luke -- running for an escape. Lando gets into the heart of the battle station and blasts the core -- speeding out to save his life...

That's when Luke, heading toward his escape in the Shuttle, gets tackled by the wounded, but able Darth Vader. Luke grapples with this giant on the ramp of the shuttle. Luke has to kill him to get into the shuttle.

Barely making it out as the Death Star II explodes, Luke returns to Endor and sees the ghostly images of Obi Wan, Yoda, and the Young SE Anakin (finally a welcome addition).

The "Flashbacks" bookend many sequences. The movie opens with the "birth of Vader" sequence as Sidious finds the melted young Jedi and turns him into Lord Vader. From that we wipe to the Star Destroyer that sends out the probe droids...

Then, when Luke discovers Yoda is really a Jedi Master -- we get the flashback of Obi Wan and Anakin getting into it with Dukoo during the Clone Wars. A little set up will establish that they know Chancellor Palpatine.

Then, after Han and Leia escape the Imperials -- we get a flashback of Sidious enacting "order 66" as Obi Wan and Anakin try to rescue the Chancellor from Dukoo. They run into Vader and Vader kills Anakin (all per "the migmaker") and then we reveal that Palpatine is Sidious as Obi Wan escapes.

From this point of view, there might be just enough material in all these extra movies to make one really honest to goodness sequel. "Star Wars Part II" Baby!

But that's just me. That outlines my ultimate blasphemy to the Saga. Let's never speak of it again (unless you want to;-))

I'm of two minds -- I love the stand alone "Star Wars '77" one way, and "the Star Wars Saga" another. They aren't really the same story, and I always wanted to see more done in the vein of the original. Just straight mythic adventure. No "according to a certain point of view" "there's still good in him, I've felt it" "Leia! Leia's my sister!" stuff.

But this side project aside, this Ranch version of the Saga is the "real" Saga to me.



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Commander Courage:

"Padme would still work; are you suggesting Luke never learned the name of his mother? By that logic Luke never learned the name of his father until Obi-Wan said "Anakin was a good friend" in RotJ. "

***

Are you suggesting that Luke knew he was the daughter of the queen of Naboo? No, clearly Luke does NOT know his mother's name anymore than Leia knows her father's name is Anakin Skywalker.

At least that's the best interpretation of what's actually there. For Vader to be able to use "Padme" in a sentence with Luke and expect him to know who "Padme" is, we should see someone tell Luke.

It all seems so much simpler and story enhancing to have Obi Wan reach out to Anakin in ANH during the Duel. It might go better somewhere during the beginning of the duel -- as Obi Wan first sees Vader: "Anakin..." He says in his Jedi mind voice. "That name no longer holds any meaning for me." replies Vader. Bzzaammmm... Obi Wan lights up his Saber and starts talking to "Darth".

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Here's some more duel Dialogue. There is a pop that for the LIFE OF ME I can't figure out why it is there. Everytime I go to search the sound file, I can't get rid of it. Of course, I am dealing with MP3s off the web, and any edits would strictly be from the source material center channel audio.

Destiny Video
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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I'm sure Luke knew the name of his mother just like he knew the name of his father. It would be silly to not tell him/lie to him about those simple facts. It's also very probable Luke was told his father died in the Clone Wars ("he died about the same time as your father") and that his mother died in chidbirth. Anakin's fate would be as true as Obi-Wan's version of events, and there would be absolutely no reason for Owen and Beru to fabricate a story about the fate of his mother. Therefore I am confident Luke knew both his parents names and had a general idea of their fates. This would all be beside the point however if someone is able to take normal James Earl Jones audio and transform it into the Vader voice. Like I said before that would open up all kinds of possibilities for the saga, not just this change. I'm sure JEJ has said "your" and "mother" somewhere in his career. I would prefer "your mother," but I think Padme will do.

Oh and MTH, Star Wars Part II sounds like an interesting project; I'm up for any creative reimagings of Star Wars. That said, let's put that on hold until we get the "Bleu Cheese Saga" completed.
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I'm thinking we might be taking these Vader quotes a bit far. It would be great to see something done to this scene, but I am wondering whether we are stripping other scenes of essential dialogue.

And where might I see this Quigon ghost scene? It sounds fr*gging awesome.
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Originally posted by: Commander Courage
I'm sure Luke knew the name of his mother just like he knew the name of his father. It would be silly to not tell him/lie to him about those simple facts. It's also very probable Luke was told his father died in the Clone Wars ("he died about the same time as your father") and that his mother died in chidbirth.


Well, it is possible. It is not in the movies and it is just as likely, in my opinion, that Queen Padme Amidala of the Naboo may be just a little too famous a mother for them to be honest about. "I never knew my mother" covers it pretty nicely -- could easily mean I never knew who she was.

I have, at my library, 4 or 5 CD's of "James Earl Jones Reads the Bible." I don't know the Bible that well, but I bet there is plenty of material in there that might make alternate dialogue if someone knew how to create the Vader effect. I believe there are a couple of "mothers" mentioned in the Bible, right?

But "Your mother once thought as you do" isn't really accurate either -- once she found out he was Vader she was pretty much done with him -- so he choked her.

The best and most solid place to address this story-wise is in the ANH duel. I believe the best place will turn out to be at the front of the duel, before they start thier banter. Once Vader says "that name no longer means anything to me," he can go into "You should not have come back old man. When we last met, I was but a learner. Now I am the master." And Ben responds, "Only a master of evil, DARTH." -- responding to Vader's comment by no longer calling him Anakin.



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I've heard the JEJ Bible. It was great but I kept getting distracted by "Luke...chapter two", etc.
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Originally posted by: THX
I don't see how Leia/Boushh can deliver Chewie before the droids arrive as I don't think Threepio can be cut from that scene.

He could be painted out. Darth Editous is your man. Whether or not he is willing to help is another matter.

War does not make one great.

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Originally posted by: Commander Courage
Really? That's quite an unexpected source, but a genius find! Hopefully there's enough dialogue in there to spread around, because it sounds great. The only other problem I see with that is using proper names; Amidala, Jedi, Sith, etc. Perhaps the German foreign language track could serve as a companion source, as I assume it would match TPofC the best.

Yes, my thoughts exactly, however, there is no German language track for Episode I. Only Spanish. Doesn't that suck? Spanish might work. And yes, I'm confident there's enough material to spread thorughout the film.

Looking at "Balance of the Force" for inspiration, more topics of discussion for our Episode I came up:
-Are we making the TF slave traders? That was a great character change done by MagnoliaFan, but the problem I see with it is Padme later saying on Tatooine, "I can't believe there's still slavery in the galaxy." What does everyone think?

I think slave traders are one of the most frightening things I can think of. Today you're living life as usual, then tomorrow they come to your planet, take over, drag you and your family away and all of a sudden you're a slave. For the rest of your life. Period. It's chilling and brutal. Like something out of the Bible. It makes sense also that these industry barons would need a massive compulsory workforce to fuel their production quotas. After all, we're talking about supplying an entire galaxy here. Think of the Neimoidians as Ancient Egyptians. Nute could be more of a Pharoah-like character. He may even have delusions of being named a diety of some kind.

-If we wanted to include one scene with Sidious, the balcony scene with Maul/Grievous would be it. However, as it occured to me in an earlier post on the subject, it was idiotic to reveal the Sith were on Coruscant. What I suggest is that for an establishing shot of the scene we utilize the Sith Wearhouse of Episode II. Manipulate the shot using night filters, fullscreen, whatever would work so it's not the exact same shot we see in II. Then darken the Sith's suroundings on the balcony. Just a thought, as I think we should see Sidious at least once in I.

I still hold fast to the decision that if you even show Sidious ONCE, you've spoiled it, because it's the mystery of not fully knowing what's going on that draws you into the story. Although... Sidious is such a seductive character... maybe... possibly? At the very end? A hint even? Can we pull it off without giving it away?

-Speaking of the Sith, are we going to go through with Darth Maul=General Grievous/Darth Grievous? I've laid out detailed plans on how to accomplish this in other threads. MTH is in agreement with me, what about the rest of the team?


I totally agree with this. I think it could only strengthen the saga as a whole.

Furthermore, instead of Maul/Grievous being just a mindless pawn for the Trade Federation, maybe he should have his own Sith agenda. For instance, instead of him being sent in pursuit of the Queen to make her "sign the treaty", suppose he arrives on Tattooine on his own accord during his search to locate and capture this "vergence in the Force" his master has been sensing. This could be accomplished by having Maul/Grievous arrive on Tattooine even before the Jedi. Luckily, by chance and perhaps through the will of the Force, the Jedi happen to run into the boy first.

Of course, the Jedi mistakenly think he's a hired assassin (or something) after the Queen. But later, when he appears on Naboo, he's there having traced the boy to that location. He has no affiliation with the Trade Federation. His goal is to eliminate the Jedi so he can deliver the boy to his master. This keeps Anakin at the forefront of the story. Suddenly the Jedi are now protecting Anakin from the "mysterious Dark Warrior". And with the Sidious scenes removed it makes this scenario very possible.

Originally posted by DarthPreston: the Neimodian voices are amazing!! Infodroid, I know that this edit is in good hands, nice job. It's funny, they actually sounded JUST as I wanted them to sound when I first saw the pictures of them before the movie came out.


Thanks! That's a great compliment!

Originally posted by MTHaslett: F*cking Brilliant! That is a Nute Gunray we can all be afraid of! I don't know what he's saying -- but he aims to kick some ass.

What are you doing over there? When is the ANH edit going to be done? At this rate, we should have all six movies by next week!


Yes, I have 65 former ILM Employees camped out at my house working 'round the clock to churn this stuff out for you guys.

Seriously though, I'm thinking we should set aside the others for now and focus on nailing down Episode One first. It seems like the all-too-logical place to start. Agreed?

Of course we can discuss the others, but I know Trooperman mentioned he wanted to play a part in the ROTJ edit. And right now he's sort of busy. And since he's handling II and III as well, that leaves us with episodes I, IV, and V. And V needs virtually no work at all. So, we've already got a pretty darn good start on a complete saga.

Oh, and one more thing... I've now tried playing with the color saturation, and it seems to have worked well. So, it looks like I'm going to be able to "age" the Prequels by desaturating them a bit after all.



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Yes, I agree. It would be best to focus on Episode I first, but don't forget the story points in the other films while you're focusing on it, or you might cause plot holes like Lucas has.
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I know, I know. I'm just making a point. When he said "we should focus on Episode I first," that alerted me.
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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
With The Demon Hunter's "Migraine Maker" scene, we'll see Vader kill Anakin. The final shots of ROTS allow us to see Vader watching the construction of Death Star II from the deck of the same ship where he learns the Rebels and Skywalker are hiding on Hoth.


I love the idea of your pet project and I believe it would be very cool to see come to fruition. I guess that I'd better get the BigMigMaker perfect if it's possibly going to be a part of someone else's work! Seriously, if it comes out well enough that you'd like to use the scene, I'd be more than honored to have it included in your project.

Time to get to work learning every bit of software I can use, I guess....

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c35/damonhunter/TDHOpenerMini.jpg
"Luminous beings are we -- not this crude matter." ~~Master Yoda
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." ~~Lord Vader
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And where might I see this Quigon ghost scene? It sounds fr*gging awesome.
Here you go:
As for Qui-Gon in RotJ: He discovered the path to immortality, he deserves to be there. But those are the only four Jedi who should be, as none of the others learned how. This puts to rest the common "Field of Dreams" criticizm when it comes to adding Jinn to the end of Jedi. An example of how to accomplish this can be found here (created by sepharih at TF.N): http://rapidshare.de/files/3067435/Quirotj20.mov.html

"James Earl Jones Reads the Bible" is exactly what I was thinking about. I've always wanted to get it, but feared I'd get distracted from the Bible and be thinking about Star Wars the whole time. Whether it's "Padme" or "Your mother," I still think she is the approriate person to mention. She even says to Anakin in RotS, "Come away with me...etc," which is what Luke was trying to do in RotJ. This would resonate in the film much more as Padme's character (via her love) still having some influence on the saga.

Now this doesn't mean I'm not for an "Anakin..." from Obi-Wan (though it would be nice to make it verbal, not telepathic). We'll have to see how it works but there's potential there. MTH's suggestion of reordered dialogue also make the conversation more natural, not to mention accurate. I think we really should rethink the entire dialogue in the duel. Using InfoDroid's strurcture for the visual flow of things of course. This is where JEJ dialogue would really come in handy.

Yes, my thoughts exactly, however, there is no German language track for Episode I. Only Spanish. Doesn't that suck? Spanish might work. And yes, I'm confident there's enough material to spread thorughout the film.

MagnoliaFan anf Trooperman both have German copies of Episode I, which I believe they intend to use for the Nemoidians in their edits (MF is updating his prequels). Anyway, it's out there and I'm sure one of them wouldn't mind helping you out.

Furthermore, instead of Maul/Grievous being just a mindless pawn for the Trade Federation, maybe he should have his own Sith agenda. For instance, instead of him being sent in pursuit of the Queen to make her "sign the treaty", suppose he arrives on Tattooine on his own accord during his search to locate and capture this "vergence in the Force" his master has been sensing. This could be accomplished by having Maul/Grievous arrive on Tattooine even before the Jedi. Luckily, by chance and perhaps through the will of the Force, the Jedi happen to run into the boy first.

Of course, the Jedi mistakenly think he's a hired assassin (or something) after the Queen. But later, when he appears on Naboo, he's there having traced the boy to that location. He has no affiliation with the Trade Federation. His goal is to eliminate the Jedi so he can deliver the boy to his master. This keeps Anakin at the forefront of the story. Suddenly the Jedi are now protecting Anakin from the "mysterious Dark Warrior". And with the Sidious scenes removed it makes this scenario very possible.

This is a good idea, it really is. However, MTH's view of the heirarchy here was Sidious/Gunray/Maul, as it was Emperor/Tarkin/Vader in ANH. That said, Maul needs a presence with the Trade Federation. I think? Sidious is still orchestrating all of this, so Maul would no doubt be involved in his plans. That raises another question; since we're killing Gunray (if we can; we really need to work out the logistics of that), what of Dooku's reveal to Obi-Wan in II? "The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious, but he was betrayed, ten years ago by the Dark Lord."
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Commander --
Now I see what you're saying -- if it's not an "either/or" situation with the "___ once thought how you do" line then we can have the Obi Wan "Anakin" beat AND have Vader say "Your mother once thought..." I agree, that would work. It would work great because the Obi Wan beat feels necessary to bring ANH fully into line with ROTS, but the reference to "Your Mother" is much more on-point with why Anakin became Vader and what he would be thinking about while facing Luke. It should be kept in mind that in the Saga version of the OT, Vader is carrying a hidden and painful torch for his lost wife. He was seduced to the Dark Side, but the good part of him loved Padme and let that love deceive him that he might be able to give in to temptation and get away with it. Some reference to Padme is ESSENTIAL to making ROTJ as good as it should be. I think seeing her in the end as a ghost will feel awkward unless we can come up with a simple explanation and get Luke to be more aware of who Padme is.

Demon Hunter --
I'm glad to have your permission for my pet project. It will take a while--late next year probably.

InfoDroid--

I think you're right that Episode I is the place to start. Trooperman did say ROTJ would take less time, and I optimistically took that to mean something impossible, like he'd do it right away. Not likely is it?

So I better paste together all those Episode I notes. I like the idea that Maul has a second agenda while working with the Nemoidians -- but he is there to assist them as well. It is at the request of Sidious that he stays at the Nemoidian's side. If he senses the Vergence of the Force, it will be a coincidence for him just as it is for Qui Gon. But a beat of Maul recognizing the Force in Anakin as he fights Qui Gon at the Queen's ship would be something I'd like to see -- just a beat where Maul gives Anakin a second glance of "Hey, that kid's special. Note to self: keep an eye on this one." Especially if there were a way to make Anakin see Maul and be terrified by him there.

Maul/Gunray will work best if it reminds us of Vader/Tarkin, I think. But as clear as it was that Tarkin out-ranked Vader, it was still clear that Vader's agenda with Obi Wan was personal. So the more we can construct a second agenda for Maul, the better. It will also help us want to see him again as Grievous in Ep III.

I have to agree with InfoDroid that any Sidious in Episode I will spoil what will be a beautiful reveal in Episode II when we see Dukoo talk about Sidious already being in control of the Senate, etc. It will be more exciting to wonder who this guy is who betrayed The Viceroy ten years ago. Who was the other SIth? Then, we finally get to see him after the Clone War begins and he says the chilling lines: Everything is going as planned. That will finally work as a good beat if it becomes THE Sidious reveal instead of a "check in with Sidious." We need good structure for this reveal of Sidious as Dukoo's counterpart-- a better entrance than the simple master shot provided in AOTC. I guess that's something to bring up to TM.

Hardcore Legend --
I haven't been able to see your clip. I know you've done a lot of work on it. What do you think about how that beat might work at the beginning of the duel instead of the end? I'll try to see your clip today.

As a sidenote, I went through ROTJ again last night and see how the ideas we have for the opening will really work. I especially like the Ewok ideas we've talked about because it really is a matter of how that stuff was edited that made them SO FRICKING child-like. I have a request-- I don't want to see a single Stormtrooper get taken out by having a rock/bollo/log fall on his head. The Ewoks' effectiveness should be kept very limited -- they provide the distraction that allows Han and Leia and the other Rebels to get out of a tight jam at the shield generator. Period. They get a few more licks in here and there, but mostly they just run for their lives, get blasted and stomped on. Bravely sacrificing themselves in a hopeless battle that is won by people like Chewie, Han and Leia. With better voices and a few shots of them using blasters, their battle can actually feel good to me. That was a big surprise. (whew!)

What's our title for Episode I?


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Thanks for the link, CC. I can't wait to see what the buzz is about.

Since you guys are starting with Episode 1, I'd recommend figuring out the major changes that need to be made for all six films before actual work is started. That way, you guys don't paint yourselves in a corner later on.

And while we are on the subject of ghosts, (here's where I get stoned for heresy), Alec Guinness might have to go. A guess it depends whether Shaw or Christensen is going to be used. I would not mind Christensen as much if he were next to Mcgreggor. Actually, even if you guys don't use it, it would be neat to see 'prequel version' of this scene with Hayden, Neeson and Ewan (not necessarily to put into the movie, but maybe to have as an 'Alternate scene' for a Bonus Material disc). Anyway, we need either only the old actors or the new actors. Not both at the same time.

If Quigon is in this version, then Luke would need to know who he is so his appearence makes sense. This seems like a good reason to replace Ben's mention on Dagobah that Yoda trained him to Quigon trained him.
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So I better paste together all those Episode I notes. I like the idea that Maul has a second agenda while working with the Nemoidians -- but he is there to assist them as well. It is at the request of Sidious that he stays at the Nemoidian's side. If he senses the Vergence of the Force, it will be a coincidence for him just as it is for Qui Gon. But a beat of Maul recognizing the Force in Anakin as he fights Qui Gon at the Queen's ship would be something I'd like to see -- just a beat where Maul gives Anakin a second glance of "Hey, that kid's special. Note to self: keep an eye on this one." Especially if there were a way to make Anakin see Maul and be terrified by him there.
This is a good idea, and I wished they would have done SOMETHING along these line in the actual film. Maul just ignores Anakin, which shouldn't be the case at all. Now allow me to make a suggestion: All of Maul's speaking scenes are being cut in this edit. Therefore, as cool as his voice is, there's no need to stay consistent as we never hear that voice in this saga. In III, Grievous will have to be dubbed. In conclusion, why doesn't the same person (whoever that may be) dub both in I and III? Obviously in III it will need some mechanical alteration, but the same voice will not only go a long way in connecting Maul and Grievous, but will also GIVE Maul some dialogue in I since we're cutting all his original lines. Something along the lines of, "I sense great power in your young companion, Jedi. He will have to wait for another time, however. My priotity is the Queen." Then some fighting dialogue from Qui-Gon in response (coming from Batman Begins, Kingdom of Heaven, Rob Roy, etc.). Just a thought to emphasize this would-be plotpoint."

This was my breakdown of the final moments of RotJ in the "Unbearable HC" thread:
Mace will never be a force spirit; he did not learn the secret of immortality taught to Obi-Wan and Yoda by Qui-Gon. According to Lucas, they "caught" Anakin on the other side, although I'd much prefer it if Anakin just dissapeared after his death and it was assumed since he was the Chosen One it was natural for him to become one with the force. What I would like to see (I've posted this before), is this:

-Luke looks off to the distance.
-Old Obi-Wan and Yoda are there, and old Anakin appears.
-Luke smiles at them, and Leia comes over to him.
-Old spirits transform into their prequel trilogy selves, dressed appropriately (no cut-and-paste jobs).
-Luke and Leia join the rest of the group.
-Qui-Gon appears beside them and the group acknowledges each other.
-Final shot of the OT characters.
-NEW final shot of SAGA characters, the spirits.

Since the saga is really about Anakin, the final shot should feature him and the other full-saga characters. That, and I never liked that last shot of laughing Leia, clapping Lando, and dancing Ewoks. A new, triumphant musical cue should also be added to end the saga with an emotional bang. It would be nice to see Padme there with the rest of the spirits, to have Anakin reunited with his love and Luke and Leia see their mother, but the logistics of explaining how that would be possible would outrage many fans I'm sure. In my opinion, NOT seeing Padme really weakens the saga; what kind of happy ending is it when we're left to assume the hero's love is lost to oblivion? All that aside, seeing Qui-Gon makes perfect sense as he is the reason the rest of them are there in the first place.
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Mace also should not be a Force Spirit because his final actions went against the Code of the Jedi Order. Unlike Obi Wan who absorbed himself into the Force, Qui Gonn who was murdered while trying to defend the people of Naboo, Yoda who also became one with the Force or Anakin who sacraficed himself.
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
I think seeing her in the end as a ghost will feel awkward unless we can come up with a simple explanation and get Luke to be more aware of who Padme is.

This will never, ever happen as long as I'm involved. LOL! I don't like the idea of ANY other Force spirits than the ones we already have. It can get you in all kinds of trouble. Once you start with say, Qui-Gon, then why not Ki-Adi-Mundi? He was murdered. Along with all the other Jedi. And why stop with Jedi? What about Biggs? Red Leader? Porkins and the whole Rogue Squadron? And why not Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru? They were all murdered too! And while you're at it, just throw Whoopi Goldberg and Patrick Swayze in there as well. "What you talkin' bout Sam Wheat..."

I think you're right that Episode I is the place to start. Trooperman did say ROTJ would take less time, and I optimistically took that to mean something impossible, like he'd do it right away. Not likely is it?

Um, prolly not.

I like the idea that Maul has a second agenda while working with the Nemoidians -- but he is there to assist them as well. It is at the request of Sidious that he stays at the Nemoidian's side. If he senses the Vergence of the Force, it will be a coincidence for him just as it is for Qui Gon. But a beat of Maul recognizing the Force in Anakin as he fights Qui Gon at the Queen's ship would be something I'd like to see -- just a beat where Maul gives Anakin a second glance of "Hey, that kid's special. Note to self: keep an eye on this one." Especially if there were a way to make Anakin see Maul and be terrified by him there.

Maul/Gunray will work best if it reminds us of Vader/Tarkin, I think. But as clear as it was that Tarkin out-ranked Vader, it was still clear that Vader's agenda with Obi Wan was personal. So the more we can construct a second agenda for Maul, the better. It will also help us want to see him again as Grievous in Ep III.


But you forget, we're never going to see Maul and the Trade Federation together anymore. Not in one scene. Maul now appears three times: 1) on Tattooine with the probes. 2) to fight Qui-Gon in the desert and 3) he disappears until the doors open in the hangar on Naboo.

He is clearly someone with his own agenda in this version and is certainly not taking orders from Gunray, it just wouldn't make any sense. It won't work as a Tarkin/Vader dynamic because Maul and Gunray never even see or speak to each other. That's why I think Maul should be on his own mission from Sidious, solely focused on Anakin. It would make him much more threatening, the boogeyman unleashed to steal a child away from the arms of a noble pair of knights. And the Jedi are just like, "What the? Who the hell is this? And what does he want?" The last thing they expected to face on this mission was a Sith Warrior. They assume he's been hired by Gunray to go after the Queen, but it soon becomes apparent he's wanting more. Maul catches them completely off-guard, and Qui-Gon pays with his life. This scenario also means that when he reappears in Episode III, not only does he have a vendetta against Obi-Wan, but now he's also got Anakin face-to-face finally, only to find he will be replaced by him.

Now, if you're still insistent that Maul needs to be affiliated with the Federation, then we will HAVE to include at least one scene with Sidious where Gunray and Maul are both taking orders from him. Otherwise, it just won't add up, IMO.

What's our title for Episode I?


Great question! I was going to ask you the same thing. I don't want to use anything that's been used before. I know someone suggested in another thread about it not having any subtitle, just "Star Wars Episode I". I'm not sure how I feel about that, though I'm not completely opposed to the idea. I'm starting to get excited about this.

--InfoDroid


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http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/2350/osoiman8rq.jpg

Something like this, Infodroid?
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Originally posted by: InfoDroid
This will never, ever happen as long as I'm involved. LOL! I don't like the idea of ANY other Force spirits than the ones we already have. It can get you in all kinds of trouble. Once you start with say, Qui-Gon, then why not Ki-Adi-Mundi? He was murdered. Along with all the other Jedi. And why stop with Jedi? What about Biggs? Red Leader? Porkins and the whole Rogue Squadron? And why not Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru? They were all murdered too! And while you're at it, just throw Whoopi Goldberg and Patrick Swayze in there as well. "What you talkin' bout Sam Wheat..."
I was waiting for someone make this argument. As I explained above, Qui-Gon is the one who discovered the secret to immortality. He is the one who taught Obi-Wan and Yoda, and Anakin becoming one with the Force can have a variety of explanations. This is not arguing he was an important character in the saga, so it'd be nice to have him there. This is arguing he is the reason the others ARE there, sharing the path with them; Qui-Gon deserves to be there, and it is logical for him to be so.

Originally posted by: InfoDroid
I know someone suggested in another thread about it not having any subtitle, just "Star Wars Episode I". I'm not sure how I feel about that, though I'm not completely opposed to the idea. I'm starting to get excited about this.

STARTING? I've been excited about this for weeks!

About the title though, Trooperman himself has suggested going with simply "Star Wars" for the title of this episode. While that's certainly a new take on things, I would argue that Star Wars is the name of the saga, and each chapter should have its own unique title. For example, the first LotR film is not "Lord of the Rings," rather "Lord of the Rings: The Felloiwship of the Ring." That's just an observation though; I'm not sure how I feel about it either.

Maul is a tricky subject. Is he a lone Sith assassin? Is he working with the Trade Federation? If he is in league with the Nemoidians, does he have his own agenda? The most important question however is what can we do with the material we have to work with? Reinventing the character of Maul/Grievous is a key alteration to this saga; that's one of the things that we should probably map out before we start delving into the saga.
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I know someone suggested in another thread about it not having any subtitle, just "Star Wars Episode I". I'm not sure how I feel about that, though I'm not completely opposed to the idea.

That was me


I think you're right that Episode I is the place to start. Trooperman did say ROTJ would take less time, and I optimistically took that to mean something impossible, like he'd do it right away. Not likely is it?

Well, I think it might be good to wait until a little later, because....

1. The Moth3r, Ocpmovie, or Citizen versions of Return of the Jedi are not out yet.
2. I'm working on the other movie
3. I need to buy the 2004 DVD set

I would probably be against adding more ghosts to Return of the Jedi. I also like Sebastian Shaw as Anakin, because I think Hayden's image completely destroys the point of the saga. But I'm getting very excited about editing ROTJ based on the ideas offered here.

InfoDroid, that's a really great idea, using the dialogue from The Passion! I haven't checked it out yet (darned dial-up) but I'll see if I can check it out tomorrow. I'm interested because this would definitely have a direct effect on Shroud of the Dark Side.

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but I'll try to do so.

I'm starting to get excited about this.

Me, too. This thing completely exploded in a couple of days. I wish I had known all of you were so interested in doing this; I'd have brought it up sooner.

-TM

PS: "Hidden Valley Edit"? You have my bad sense of humour

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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InfoDroid: But you forget, we're never going to see Maul and the Trade Federation together anymore. Not in one scene. Maul now appears three times: 1) on Tattooine with the probes. 2) to fight Qui-Gon in the desert and 3) he disappears until the doors open in the hangar on Naboo.

***
I didn't forget this -- it never crossed my mind. I don't think it's a good idea -- if anyone's asking. The scene I want to introduce Maul is the same one that's there-- only we cut it so that Gunray is contacting Maul instead of talking to Sidious. This is essential to my estimation of the storyline, so I guess it's good we're putting together a Bible, huh? ;-)

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InfoDroid: Now, if you're still insistent that Maul needs to be affiliated with the Federation, then we will HAVE to include at least one scene with Sidious where Gunray and Maul are both taking orders from him. Otherwise, it just won't add up, IMO.

***

I think I see what you're saying -- it sounds like we want the same thing, but I think I have a way to get there with Maul working with Gunray and leaving Sidious a mystery.

It all comes down to the scene where (in the current version) Sidious introduces Maul. Notice -- Sidious and Maul are both wearing cloaks. So we can do shot/reverse shot with Maul and Gunray using the close ups of Maul and the reverse shots of Sidious to double as the back of Maul's head.

The dialogue will be to the effect of "We need help, let's bring in Grievous. Sidious promises he's good." They dial up Grievous/Maul: "Grievous -- go get Amidala. I need to torture her until she signs my treaty."

Set up enough of a Gunray/Maul/Sidious relationship to keep the action clear, but leave room for Sidious to step in later. By the end of the movie, when Yoda and Mace wonder if they met the Sith master or apprentice, audiences will know that somewhere out there a Sith named Sidious awaits... Then we pan over to Palpatine. This is kind of like how Tarkin mentions the Emperor in ANH -- it just sort of flies past until you think about it later.

That will get us both what we want, I think. Thoughts?

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WOW, MTH! Once again, your mind bends in mysterious ways, My Friend.

Great idea. You've got me on the bandwagon... Again.

Trooperman, I'm so glad you're following this thread. The Passion dialogue worked really well. I just took the appropriate scenes, plugged them into the audio layer and edited the sounds to match up with whatever way their mouth was moving at the time. I think it's Aramaic they're speaking. Everyone seems to have liked the result, which is a rich, exotic language, and a voice that can be quite intimidating.