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.: The XØ Project - Laserdisc on Steroids :. (SEE FIRST POST FOR UPDATES) (* unfinished project *) — Page 9

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Edit: Oops. Completely missed the last two lines about the more tedious method - move along, nothing to see...

David
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Very good article. I'm going to have to invest in some of this software someday.

Patrick
"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." - Tuco from The Good, The Bad And The Ugly
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Are you just going to remove the garbage mattes from the version with all the effects cleaned up? I take it that the complete preservation version will still have them?

Sorry if that’s obvious, I just get anxious whenever I see classic effects being digitally repaired.
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Relax, Mentor, it has been stated more than once that they'll do a straight preservation first, before a cleaned up one.
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I'm a little confused about the last two posts. I been following X0 since the beginning and I understand the straight preservation vs. cleaned up version. What I don't understand is why anyone would want garbage mats left in the straight preservation version? If you are fixing the starfields, fixing the color, etc. why would the garbage mats be left intact? They are not an intended visual artifact of Lucas' or anyone elses doing. They are quite possibly the most visually distracting part of these films, and it takes no subjective judgment to decide how to fix them. They are either on or off. It's not like cleaning up laser blasts because you feel that the surrounding glow is to intense, that stuff is clearly subjective. From a common sense perspective, cleaning up those garbage mats is no different than restoring the starfields. I hope the criteria for alteration within the straight preservation version does not stop before the garbage mats are fixed, that would be a shame.

HARMY RULES

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But the fixing the star field is restoring stars that were lost when it was put onto laserdisc due to the limited number of scan lines available.

they arent cleaning up laser blasts for the complete preservationist version. they are correcting the colors (of the entire film) to match what the colors were when it was shown in theaters (it seems they have some good information as to the true color of the scenes).

the only things they are 'fixing' is the things that were messed up when the movie was put onto the laser disc and underwent the thx remastering.

then, from there, they will have their own project if they desire where they fix matte lines, or lightsabers.

at least, thats my understanding, correct me if im wrong.

preservation has nothing to do with Lucas' 'original vision' it has to do what he originally showed. If it was the former than lucas could call his 2004 edits preservation which they are clearly not. Preservation preserves the 'warts and all' so that the film is shown just as they were able to get it when they showed it, it keeps the 'mistakes/errors' that were caused by the limitations of the technology of that time.

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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It just seems to me that it would be a HUGE mistake to leave in these garbage mats. We are all purists here, but sometimes common sense has to temper the purist mentality. It's hard to explain, but fixing these mats is just not the same as cleaning up the landspeader blur, enhancing weak rotoscoping etc. Is there a single person who finds the garbage mats endearing? I plead with you to make an exception for the garbage mats. They suck, they suck, they suck. Please for the love of God make an exception for the garbage mats.

preservation has nothing to do with Lucas' 'original vision' it has to do what he originally showed

He has never shown a version of these films without dust dirt and other crap on the film itself. The reason that there are dust specs on the filmstock is due to the fact that the technology to prevent this from happening didn't exist (it still doesn't). We can all look at this common sense wise, however, and decide that they should of course be fixed. How can the same not be true for the garbage mats?

HARMY RULES

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If two versions are to be released... how many other edits will be on the version where the garbage mats are released?

Harrison Ford Has Pretty Much Given Up on His Son. Here's Why

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My impression has been that this project is about getting the best looking version of the films off the laserdiscs and then after that different people will make there own versions from the masters that fix garbage mattes, rotoscoping, and stuff like that but doing that is still pretty far along down the road.
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So the straight preservation will have colors fixed, dust removed, and starfields restored, but garbage mattes left intact? Can someone please post who wants the garbage mattes left intact and explain to me why the hell you do? It takes NO SUBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT to fix them, they are literally a black and white issue! They are no more subjective than dust removal, in fact they are less subjective. No only are they less subjective, they are far more important in terms of visual enjoyment of the film. I know we can all argue back and forth about stuff like rotoscoping, but is there a single fan who likes the garbage mattes? If there is such a fan, why don't you love the dust and crap as well?

HARMY RULES

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There's a difference between removing garbage mattes and removing dust. The garbage mattes are in the film itself. Dust and things like it are imperfections due to maltreatment of the film. If you can't see that difference, then I can't help you, but I doubt you're going to change the intentions of the X0 project just by bitching like you are.

I used to be very active on this forum. I’m not really anymore. Sometimes, people still want to get in touch with me about something, and that is great! If that describes you, please email me at [my username]ATgmailDOTcom.

Hi everybody. You’re all awesome. Keep up the good work.

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There is no need to get nasty retard. I didn't take a condesending tone with you. Why don't you answer the question, do you prefer that the garbage mattess be left in the straight preservation version and if so why? Regardless of the fact that the dust is unitended, it takes SUBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT to fix it. Once that subjective judgement is applied to a transfer in any way, it should be tempered by common sense. Why would anyone want the garbage mattes left in? In order to finally see a version of this film without the garbage mattes, we will have to remove them ourselves or watch altered versions of X0 which have many other more subjective alterations. The bottom line is that the X0 project has the potential to be the Holy Grail of laserdisc transfers, why would you want the garbage mattes to ruin it's visual quality? They are clearly a very unique problem with the film, why should they not be treated as such? Everyone wants a version of these films with the garbage mattes removed, they are not like the highly debated issues such as the landspeeder blur, poor rotoscoping, blah blah blah. The X0 team is the greatest preservation team ever assembeled. If they don't fix them, they will never be fixed with the technical skill and untempered devotion to the OT that this exceptional team can provide.

HARMY RULES

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I gotta say that I agree. I don't want to see any changes to the film made in the X0 project, but I don't EVER remember seeing the garbage mattes when I originally viewed the film in theaters.
Either it was a limitation of the films transfers (versus better quality laserdiscs), or just my lack of accuity at the time. I feel that anything that yanks you out of the movie experience is bad.
(Which is one of the reasons Lucas' crap ass digital characters annoy me.)

Dr. M

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For the record I don't want to see any other changes either. These garbage mattes are a totally unique issue, they should not be lumped in with subjective alterations. They are as black and white (literally) and as cut and dry as it gets.

HARMY RULES

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The matte lines are by far the most annoying part about the original films. The are also the most distracting. Everything else I can live with.

Although they supposedly removed them in the newest DVD release, there are still places where I can clearly see them. I do not remember seeing them in the theater when I first saw SW. IT was only when I saw it on LD that I noticed the mattes.

I am with Rob, vote to remove them

God, I hate those things.
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That's a very good point. I definitely could not see them when I watched the entire OT at a special event in a local theater in 1992.

HARMY RULES

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I vote to keep them.

Removing them would be the same as fixing lightsaber rotoscoping, or jump cuts, or fixing the black R2 in space, or anything like that - they're there because that was the state of FX technology at the time. If you're for preservation, then why wouldn't you want to preserve them? Preservationists are for no alterations because they want the film to look like it was made in 1977. Why? Because IT WAS. They didn't have the technology to remove/not have garbage mattes in the first place, at that time, so removing them would be undermining the whole concept of preservation.

If you can't see that, Rob, then there's nothing more I can say. I find the horrid saber effects much more distracting, but I'm not clamoring for them to be fixed because that's not preserving the film the way it was made in 1977.
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They were not that visible in 1977! I never even noticed until I saw the OT mastered with THX. Can they at least be made to look like they did in the theater? If your going to leave them in, your making the assumption that everyone who watches them will have there television calibrated to THX specifications which require dratically lower brightness. That means nobody will be seeing them properly. It amazes me that you would be more distracted by poor rotoscoping than giant ridiculous white blocks around each ship. Are you serious? How the hell can you enjoy the space sequences with these horrid boxes. They have never looked worse than they do on the THX laserdiscs.

HARMY RULES

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Originally posted by: weapon
The matte lines are by far the most annoying part about the original films. The are also the most distracting. Everything else I can live with.

Although they supposedly removed them in the newest DVD release, there are still places where I can clearly see them. I do not remember seeing them in the theater when I first saw SW. IT was only when I saw it on LD that I noticed the mattes.

I am with Rob, vote to remove them

God, I hate those things.


I no i see the matte lines also in the DVD's in other areas like (ESB)when Han and Lando are infront of the Millunein Falcon in some place (not cloud city) and (ROTJ) when Luke, Han, Chewie etc are on that space raft thing in the desert about to be killed theres a matte line around there head.
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wow. gimme a minute to respond here.

[edit]

I admire the enthusiasm on this guys, I really do. There are merits on both sides of the argument. But I think people are forgetting what we wrote in the first post:
First and foremost, the project aims to be an archive preservation of the Original Star Wars Trilogy laserdiscs in the best quality possible. We are culling video from a number of different sets. These include, but are not limited to, the US Definitive Collection set, the US "Faces" set, and their Japanese equivalents.

Every single frame will be looked at and corrected. Fixes will be limited to dirt and film damage removal, color correction, and stabilization. Wherever possible we will be using the actual celluloid film for reference.

Glitches including matte lines, saber colors, and frame jumps will not be fixed in the initial version. A possible second version could include fixes to matte lines and garbage mattes, but keep the rest of the "glitches" intact.


We will always be keeping the raw transfer, with starless starfields, LD pressing errors, garbage mattes, everything. (Think of this as the DarkJedi of X0 releases. )
For the absolute purist, this may be their lovechild. It will be how the LDs would look if you were fortunate enough to own an X0 player.

We will also be doing a straight cleanup to remove cue dots, laserdisc sparklies, restore the starfields (remembering we aren't putting any stars back that are not on the laserdisc, just bringing them out), remove the garbage mattes, remove any "film problems" i.e. splices, scratches etc. as per our previous newsletter, and adjust the color to match the theatrical releases as close as possible.

This would form our "base print" for any future projects. These would include things like saber fixes, fixing dodgy effects, etc.

Garbage mattes are really a color correction issue when you think about it. If the colors were set properly, you wouldn't see them at all. At least in the initial archive version, they are certainly of interest from a 'wow, look how they did that in 1977' point of view.

But they won't be in the version that we will be sitting down to enjoy watching in our homes.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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So there won't be a version available with the color corrected, the stars brightened, and the garbage mats removed?

Harrison Ford Has Pretty Much Given Up on His Son. Here's Why

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Thank God, it is as I previously had thought...the Holy Grail.

HARMY RULES

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Originally posted by: zion
Originally posted by: Stinky-Dinkins
So there won't be a version available with the color corrected, the stars brightened, and the garbage mats removed?

Um, yeah. That's what the second version is.



You just blew my mind.

Harrison Ford Has Pretty Much Given Up on His Son. Here's Why

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so will the second version have re rotoscoped lightsabers???