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Post #1606928

Author
G&G-Fan
Parent topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Link to post in topic
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1606928/action/topic#1606928
Date created
5-Sep-2024, 7:28 PM

Spartacus01 said:

I completely understand where you are coming from, and I respect your love for the way Darth Vader is portrayed in the Original Trilogy. However, I think it is unrealistic to expect him to be as agile as he was before he got the suit, especially after everything that happened to him in Revenge of the Sith. As I have already said, the guy had both of his legs and one of his arms cut off, and then he was left to burn alive for hours before Palpatine arrived on Mustafar to save what little was left of him. After going through all that, it wouldn’t make sense for him to move with the same speed or agility. However, his physical limitations are part of what makes him so intimidating, at least in my opinion. The fact that he can still fight with such ferocity despite those injuries shows how powerful he really is. Even though his mobility has been reduced compared to his younger self, he has learned to adapt. He is no longer the fast, acrobatic duelist he was as Anakin, but now he is this unstoppable force who fights with pure power and precision. His strikes are heavy and deliberate, and that makes him terrifying in a different way. So, I think that his reduced mobility actually makes him even more intimidating. And let’s be honest, just looking at the suit, it is clear that it is heavy and uncomfortable. It is not the kind of thing anyone would want to live inside, much less fight in. You can tell right away that it would restrict his movements. But that only adds to the character in my opinion, because despite the fact that the suit looks cumbersome, Vader still manages to dominate his enemies. It is part of what makes him so menacing — he is pushing through immense physical pain and limitations, yet he is still one of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy. That’s what makes him powerful, even if he is not as agile as he once was.

We’re actually agreeing here, because I said practically the same thing about Darth Vader’s fighting style. The fights I brought up, both OT and otherwise, show exactly what you’re describing: a less agile but powerful, heavy, deliberate fighter. I don’t think he’s as immobile as it seems some ppl will say, but his main strength is his brutal, overwhelming, unrelenting nature…

I’m not sure I’m entirely behind the idea of Vader’s suit being uncomfortable and painful in-universe. We know in Canon that Vader modifies his suit himself and in Lords of the Sith, it’s separation of him from the physical realm allows him to focus and strengthen his relationship to the Force. But I’m cool with the idea of the suit behind painful in the context you described it in, and if the idea is it’s deliberate on his end to get more high on the dark side, not something forced onto him.

Spartacus01 said:

I understand your perspective, but I don’t think the Jedi need to be perfect to be role models. In fact, showing their flaws makes the story more relatable. The idea that “everything was perfect until Anakin and Palpatine destroyed it all” is way too simplistic, because life is not that black and white. People and institutions, even well-meaning ones like the Jedi, can make mistakes, and those mistakes can have serious consequences. A Republic that has lasted for thousands of years does not collapse simply because a guy with a bad childhood and an evil sorcerer decide to team up. Things are not that simple, and it is wrong to portray them so simplistically. There is a reason why people these days don’t appreciate simple fairy tales as much as they used to, and that’s because real life doesn’t work like fairy tales, and people don’t like simplistic stories anymore. There is a difference between trying to be positive and spread a good message and writing unrealistic stories where the good guys are perfect and the bad guys are basically demons with no soul. Furthermore, what makes Obi-Wan and Yoda compelling mentors is not that they are flawless, but that they learn from their failures. They are still guiding Luke toward a better path despite the mistakes the Jedi Order made in the past.

Of course the good guys and bad guys should never be as one-dimensional as you describe. Taking the OT as an example, Luke, Han and Leia are protagonist heroes who are undeniably flawed (though I’m sure you weren’t referring to them). At the points in the narrative where Darth Vader is pure evil and Obi-Wan is pure good, there’s still dimension and nuances to their characterizations. Vader and Obi-Wan aren’t just evil and good respectively, they’re a particular flavor of evil and good. They still have traits, goals, views, and rudimentary backstories. This is understandable, they’re not the protagonists. As the movies go on, they’re given more depth as we learn more. Vader actually has deeply repressed vulnerability underneath his cold hardened personality. Obi-Wan lied to Luke and either actually failed Anakin or is too hard on himself. Yoda and the Emperor are the embodiment of good and evil, but even still, have character traits.

I don’t have a problem with the characterization for Obi-Wan and Yoda in the Prequels either, I take issue with the idea that the Jedi’s beliefs are corrupt and incorrect and putting so much blame on the Jedi for their tragic fate. Protagonist Jedi characters should be good people with flaws, but the religion is the enlightened path, and the flaws of the characters (understandable and human) strays from Jedi philosophy (like Luke’s). The one PT Jedi flaw Lucas agrees with, the participation in the war, is a departure from their philosophy (though his intent is that they’re involuntarily drafted). There’s also still a place for characters like Yoda, who should be all good, because his purpose in the narrative is to be the wise mentor. You don’t see people begging for Gandalf to be given a massive amount of depth.

People still love the OT as much as they did back then, same with say, Lord of the Rings. Morally simplistic stories are not an issue, as long as they have compelling characters, good pacing, and thematically powerful stories. The issue some had with the PT Jedi is that they found them unintentionally too rigid, apathetic, and dimwitted, which is mostly due to Lucas’ writing and directing. Fans decided to be good faith to the Prequels and ran with the idea that they’re actually supposed to be that way, exaggerating or interpreting flaws, to the point where the Filoni-verse has made it canon. Which is fine, if that’s your thing, I don’t agree with Lucas on everything either.

I should also note that the idea of a millennia old institution falling apart because of two evil dudes is partially a result of Lucas cramming the timeline. The implication of the OT, when calling the Jedi an ancient religion, is that they had been gradually becoming more sparse for awhile, likely due to external forces, and Vader and the Empire (mostly) sealed the deal. I don’t think the original idea was that the Jedi were at their height in Obi-Wan and Anakin’s time. Curiously, Lucas incorporated the idea of a deteriorating Republic into the PT, but not a deteriorating Jedi Order, until the clone war and Order 66 (Lucas is on record saying TPM is meant to represent the height of the Jedi Order). I can see why he would want to, but it has ramifications on the overall structure and continuity.