Originally posted by: THX
I repeat: from the "saga" point of view, IT DOESN'T MATTER that we know Vader is Luke's father from the PT and he doesn't. The revelation still works if it's only to Luke, and it's arguably more interesting for the audience to be party to information that he doesn't have, wondering IF and WHEN he'll find out.
Question: How can Vader make the "shocking" revelation that Ben tried to kill him in ESB, when Luke watched Ben try to kill Vader in ANH?
Originally posted by: MTHaslett
It's hardly surprising to see how divisive the idea of Making Ben Tell the Truth is.
But you're not "Making Ben Tell the Truth", you're making him tell Luke Vader is his father, while withholding the fact that he tried to kill him. This is a selective truth, just like the official version.
The same reason you don't have Ben tell Luke about his attempt to kill Anakin.
The "reveal" in ESB is broken in the Saga. We already know the truth. The only reason it worked in the OT as a "reveal" is that we didn't know.
It's hardly surprising to see how divisive the idea of Making Ben Tell the Truth is.
But you're not "Making Ben Tell the Truth", you're making him tell Luke Vader is his father, while withholding the fact that he tried to kill him. This is a selective truth, just like the official version.
they don't tell him because it would screw up the "reveal."
The same reason you don't have Ben tell Luke about his attempt to kill Anakin.
The "reveal" in ESB is broken in the Saga. We already know the truth. The only reason it worked in the OT as a "reveal" is that we didn't know.
I repeat: from the "saga" point of view, IT DOESN'T MATTER that we know Vader is Luke's father from the PT and he doesn't. The revelation still works if it's only to Luke, and it's arguably more interesting for the audience to be party to information that he doesn't have, wondering IF and WHEN he'll find out.
Question: How can Vader make the "shocking" revelation that Ben tried to kill him in ESB, when Luke watched Ben try to kill Vader in ANH?
You're answering your own questions. I said it won't be a shocking revelation. This version is not about having a shock at the end of Episode V, but telling a story about Luke coming to decide that redeeming Vader is a viable and smart thing to do -- basically fulfilling Anakin's prophecy and getting Anakin's potential as the Chosen One to surface. Vader revealing that Obi Wan tried to kill Anakin won't have anything like the effect of Vader revealing that he is Luke's father. Instead of being a beat about "Ben lied to me!" it'll be a beat about "Anakin is still alive in there." Vader's "reveal" that Obi Wan tried to kill him is on the order of subtext -- Vader tries to get Luke to switch sides by accusing Obi Wan of trying to kill him. Obviously that's not going to work, but it reveals a vulnerability in Vader that approaches desperation. He wants Luke.
At first that's the shock -- "He's not trying to kill me, he's offering me a job!"
Then, after reflection, Luke can honestly say "I sensed there was still good in him." Obi Wan did not lie and thereby hand Vader a giant advantage in swaying Luke to his side. Obi Wan simply spared Luke the gruesome details. Luke can hardly have expected Obi Wan to stand by and watch Anakin wipe out the Jedi.
You can argue that it's more interesting to watch Luke and wonder when he will find out that Obi Wan is a big fat liar and that he and Yoda set him up to be knocked on his ass by a revelation that the audience found out about three movies ago. But that version of the OT already exists. The SAGA is six films about Anakin and Luke's role in the last three films of the complete SAGA is hampered (imho) by this revelation. If the movies were made 1-6 instead of 4-6, then 1-3 -- the idea of a reveal wouldn't have come up.
It's an issue of cleaning up what's there vs. what's intended. If this is supposed to be seen 1-6 and tell the story of the fall and rise of the "chosen one" then the material can be massaged to tell that story clearer.