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At least it fits the plot.
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released) — Page 25
At least it fits the plot.
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Originally posted by: InfoDroid
If we're doing LOTR, how about Dooku says to Kenobi: "I gave you the chance of aiding me... but you have chosen the way of PAIN!"
If we're doing LOTR, how about Dooku says to Kenobi: "I gave you the chance of aiding me... but you have chosen the way of PAIN!"
That's be a great one for sure! Either before he strikes Obi-Wan down in the duel or before the creatures are released in the arena.
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“Have you considered just before the duel begins, cutting to Padme’s lifeless body on the sand (with a little sombre music) and then cutting back to Anakin (perhaps with a close-up on his face so everyone knows what he is thinking) who then rushes in?”
I actually hadn’t thought of that. However, while that would probably work in many editing styles, I don’t think this solution would work in my cut. This might not make sense until you see the film; I just have a different technique and that’s a more modern device.
“why does it make any more logical sense that Anakin would suspect that Dooku would want, specifically, to kill Padme after her fall, than the possibility of him rushing Dooku in the duel (unless you have completely irradicated his earlier impetuousness)?”
The whole problem with Anakin’s run seems to be that even in the original cut (when he was a very impetuous character), the wild run at Dooku seemed stupid. Now in this cut, when Anakin is more removed, daring at times, and calculating (like Vader), it seems out of character unless he’s motivated like the other times when he lets emotion guide him (the Padme scenes, the garage scene, the scene with his mother, etc.). So the big puzzle here is to make it clear to the audience why Anakin runs at Dooku.
“One more change that is small, but related is that when Padme falls out of the ship they describe her fall with two shots in the sand: FIRST, she tumbles down the sand dune toward camera and rolls out of frame, screen left. SECOND, she rolls to a stop, on her back facing camera in close-up. I suggest cutting the second shot. It feels fake because the framing is too perfect and she doesn't look like she just fell out of an airplane. If you let her roll out of frame and don't tell us where she stops before cutting back to Anakin's reaction, I think it will seem more convincing that she may be hurt/dead.”
Right on. The second shot will be removed, also so that I can utilize it when she gets up after Dooku escapes.
“ANAKIN (V.O.): I'm not afraid to die... but I can never lose you again.”
Beautiful line, MTH. That will certainly come as a surprise to the audience. Now, the trick becomes fitting it in with the finale music while making it seem natural. Speaking of the finale music, I mentioned a long time ago that I had a surprise for the ending music. And this surprise is…taking the main love theme and instead of using the bridge that goes with it, using the “B” section of the love theme in its place. It’s kind of hard to explain, but this bridge is all strings and might lend itself to dialogue more than the original f. horn bridge.
“Regarding Watto: I think Anakin should have been a bit more agressive in finding Shmi. I know you are looking at that by having Anakin threaten Watto. My approach would be a little different from what you guys suggest. I'd cut all the chit chat and the bit about Anakin fixing the power droid. It was filmed to convince Watto that it was really Anakin. Who cares. Who would be asking about Shmi anyway? So instead of Anakin threatening to cut Watto's wings off, he uses a Jedi mind trick on Watto and it works. I know that Watto says that mind tricks don't work on Toydarians. This is why I think it would be cool to see here. We all remember the scene from TPM. All of a sudden Anakin does it on Watto! We realise this guy is so strong in the Force that he can influence minds that usually aren't affected by the Jedi mind trick. And it would make a nice payoff for having the Qui-gon/Watto scene in TPM in the first place.”
Wow- another good suggestion. That would be really nice and it would make the viewer think, which is what we want. Mind tricks don’t work on Watto- and Anakin pulled it off. “You will tell me where Shmi is.” That would be nice. After all, why wouldn’t Anakin try it? I’ll try it both your way and the other way and see which one I like the best.
“What if you cut out every single reference to Sidious?
Consider -- this simplifies the apparent story and adds a layer of subtext. The threat posed by the Trade Federation goes up a notch because suddenly they aren't so frickin incompetent and servile-- they're the top of the food chain as far as we know. Then Nute Gunray becomes a memorable and cool character. His henchmen is Darth Maul -- quite like Tarkin and Vader in ANH. And just like ANH, we aren't told that this "Darth" character is the servent of Sidious. It's implied and played by the rules-- but never stated.
This empowers both Gunray and Maul -- and saves the big Sidious reveal for Episode II!”
Oh, boy. That isn’t what I wanted to hear
Because I thought Sidious was a high point of Episode I. Despite this, there are definite advantages to this option. The biggest would be that the Nemoidians would be elevated from the “lackey” status, which has never happened in an edit before. Even in “Balance of the Force”, the Nemoidians are seen as been subservient. Why? Because Sidious was still telling them what to do every other scene. Maybe we could still have Sidious in Episode I, but to a much lesser extent? Relegating him to one or two scenes? I’ll have to think about this one, but the good news is that I think I’m pretty much going to do the same thing with the scene in Ep. II either way, so that I don’t have to make a decision right away. I guess the question would be…do you use the Emperor’s theme all the way through, or the original music (which I actually really liked for this scene)? Well…I think I’ll use the original music. The Emperor’s theme will be stated quite a few times in my Ep. III (particularly a big, loud rendition when Palpatine raises his arms in the Senate after announcing the Empire) “Shamless personal ad: If anyone wants to respond to my Maul=Grievous plans in Rebel Scumb's "My Phantom Edit" thread, please do as so far I've recieved very little feedback.”
I think those are great ideas. When I get to Episode III, I’ll delve into them more thoroughly.
“About an earlier post as to why Dooku would want to kill Padme, I think it was revealed in an early draft of ep III that Dooku ordered the tusken raiders to kidnap and torture Anakin's mother. I think it's interesting to consider that possibility and how that would have added to Dooku's character.”
That is interesting. The problem would be incorporating it. I was kind of going with the “Palpatine was behind everything” scenario, but do you have an idea to incorporate this dramatically? If so, I’d like to hear it.
“He is so influenced by his emotions (so quick to anger) that this acts as a distraction from his training and Dooku uses this fact and, in effect, just whips the football away and sends the unfocused Jedi flying. Thereby giving more credence to Obi and his philosophy (and also to the fact that he, ultimately, failed in training Anakin).”
Very true.
“By making that choice of restraint a few minutes earlier and then showing up here and going berzerk-- Anakin's character is suddenly waffling and adrift. There needs to be a straight line that explains why he rushes in here when he was able to rein himself in and leave Padme only a short time earlier.
It might help if Dukoo taunts Anakin into coming. If Dukoo said "I sense that she suffered before she died. I hope that pains you, young Jedi." Then I can see Anakin going off. But to do it in response to Obi Wan's direct order is just whacky.”
YES- THIS is what I need. Not a line from Anakin, but a taunting, provoking comment from Dooku that infuriates Anakin. If anyone knows if a line like this can be found in the LOTR movies (I own the extended trilogy), the old Hammer films, or anywhere else…please let me know. THIS is what would make this scene work. Something along these lines would be ideal. Off the top of my head…
Anakin: So...YOU’RE the one who’s been trying to kill Padme.
Dooku: Trying? She’s practically dead already, boy. (laughs). Just like you and your friend.
Dramatic music and close-up of Anakin. He runs at Dooku.
Anakin: You’re the one who’s been trying to kill Padme all along. That’s the last mistake you’ll ever make, Dooku!
Dooku: Indeed.
In the absence of appropriate Dooku dialogue, this is a good exchange as well.
"I gave you the chance of aiding me... but you have chosen the way of PAIN!"
Excellent! I'll use it in the arena.
Bad news- nobody in the other forums wants to help me restore the fox logo, or get me the HD Blade Runner footage. I even emailed a couple about it very courteously- no response. At this point, it’s kind of expected and I no longer am surprised, but I’m still disappointed because I know that these people have access to these materials that could really help me out. Oh, well.
It is still FASCINATING to me when I watch some of my work on this that involves such seemingly minor changes like flips, color changes, cropping, and a new music cue, and I feel as though I’m watching a different movie. I’m trying to bring the “magic” back to Star Wars. Moments like Yoda’s levitation of the X-wing in TESB just don’t exist in the prequels, so I’m trying to create them. What this has taught me is that these “little” things can almost make or break a movie like this. One continuing problem people have with the PT is that you never feel close to the characters. After thinking about this, I’ve concluded that this could possibly have a lot to do with the actual framing of the shots in the prequels. Very rarely do we get many good close-ups at all; it’s usually from the chest up, with some space above the head as well. In a very real sense, everything feels far away because the actual camera never gets close. Fortunately, the full-screen DVD was released, which enables me to crop so many of these shots and get better detail and facial expressions in particular. We are closer to the characters and everything does not look so terribly phony and symmetrical.
So what am I doing at this point? Organizing myself, really. Backing all of my work up on disc and writing out an organized timetable that will guide me to work at the pace I need to, to get this film out on DVD by May 2006.
More later…I’m hungry
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition
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Happy Thanksgiving!
Thanks for checking in. Thanks for arbitrating all the decisions.
Thanks for "Shroud of the Darkside"
MAY 25, 2006 -- A Saga Was Finally Set Back On Course...
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I have the same opinion. I have two major close-ups to request that will be easy and have nice impact. I don't know how you may be changing the scenes already-- so see if they fit.
One: As Anakin and Padme walk with her luggage in Naboo -- a lot of this will have to go to make her not a senator, but one line that's good for these lovers is when Anakin says "I think the Republic needs you." It would be a perfect spot to get a close up of her reaction to this line -- meaning "Wow, this guy's compliments are effective."
Two: As Anakin first shakes hands with Clieg Lars, he hears "She's my wife" and this should be said with a close up of Anakin's pained reaction -- he's got a step father? Mom got married? That's exactly the kind of missing close up that keeps us OUT of Anakin's head.
I know there are more, but I had these two off the top of my head.
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Also, I look forward to your review of the other edits!
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Let us all be thankful to be participating in the most extensive Star Wars fan edit of them all: Episode II - Shroud of the Dark Side!
Trooperman: Glad you liked my Maul=Grievous ideas, I look forward to delving into them for Episode III. I'm also in agreement with you on Sidious in Episode I; he is a high point of them film, but removing some of his scenes would indeed strengthen the Trade Federation as well as the plot. Some of them are essential though IMO, but again that's a discussion for another time. And the May release date is official? Excellent, everything is going as planned...
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Participating in this edit is the most productive thing I am doing on the internet right now.
Wonderful! Not only is the most productive thing I am doing on the internet right now, it's pretty much the ONLY thing I'm doing on the internet right now.
And the May release date is official? Excellent, everything is going as planned...
By "official" do you mean "guaranteed, definite release; will have a dual-layer disc in my hand on May 25th or Trooperman will be throttled"? Because that isn't the case. This is the date the film will come out if all goes as it should and I have plenty of time to polish it. This is when it "should" come out.
But if something were to happen and the discs wasn't out before May, a release before Labor Day is not only a given- it's inevitable. So it's coming soon, guys. I understand the frustration you must feel, reading all these "teasers" but having to wait for months on end for the finished project. I realize that most fan edits are whipped out in a much shorter time. But if you stick with me, I think the payoff will be more than even you who are following the thread are expecting.
In compiling a list of things I need to do and a timetable, I ran into another issue I had kind of forgotten about- Windu's saber, which was going to be blue for my movie. This is going to be time-consuming, and there'll be a learning curve as well.
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition
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Originally posted by: TroopermanBut if something were to happen and the discs wasn't out before May, a release before Labor Day is not only a given- it's inevitable. So it's coming soon, guys. I understand the frustration you must feel, reading all these "teasers" but having to wait for months on end for the finished project. I realize that most fan edits are whipped out in a much shorter time. But if you stick with me, I think the payoff will be more than even you who are following the thread are expecting.
In compiling a list of things I need to do and a timetable, I ran into another issue I had kind of forgotten about- Windu's saber, which was going to be blue for my movie. This is going to be time-consuming, and there'll be a learning curve as well.
In compiling a list of things I need to do and a timetable, I ran into another issue I had kind of forgotten about- Windu's saber, which was going to be blue for my movie. This is going to be time-consuming, and there'll be a learning curve as well.
This project will be well worth the wait, no matter how long it takes for us to see the final result. I've given up on my own self-imposed deadline for my project because of the "learning curve" you mentioned as well, and believe me, it can only make your project better in the end.
Best of luck on a most ambitious project!
"Luminous beings are we -- not this crude matter." ~~Master Yoda
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." ~~Lord Vader
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This feels so much better than just bitchin' about what Lucas got wrong. This is the Ranch!
Trooperman: " Great suggestions on close-ups, MTHaslett. I have many ideas of my own as well, but if you can think of any other spots where that would add to the effect, please say so. Along with your other ideas regarding the droids, etc. "
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A quick one: in the opening sequence where the ships are flying into Coruscant-- go back to TPM for a close up of Artoo in the back of a Naboo Fighter. This would cue us into his presence and p.o.v. before we even get to the landing deck. I see you plan an interior shot on the Queen's ship here too and I think that's brilliant-- what if it can establish (falsely) that Padme's actually on board -- a shot of Padme's double or something?
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Trooperman: [re: cutting Sidious from Ep. I] "Maybe we could still have Sidious in Episode I, but to a much lesser extent? Relegating him to one or two scenes? I’ll have to think about this one, but the good news is that I think I’m pretty much going to do the same thing with the scene in Ep. II either way, so that I don’t have to make a decision right away."
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I understand the reluctance people have to taking Sidious out of Episode I-- he was the one character from the OT that showed up for TPM acting in character, doing cool stuff, and maybe even coming off even better than he did before. That was a relief from the off-model droids, goofy Skywalker, Jar Jar, poop jokes, etc. etc.
But I am dead serious when I say I believe cutting every frame of Sidious is the only way to possibly make Episode I as great as it should have been.
Consider it only in this light, (before I go any furhter): Episode I should play like the first movie of the Star Wars Saga.
The only way Sidious' appearance makes sense is in the context it was released -- as Sequel #4. If TPM comes after ROTJ, then yeah, let's see Sidious. But if TPM is the first movie of an OT style 6 movie SAGA-- what sense does it make to undercut all the subtlety and expose Sidious right off the bat?
I say cut him and strengthen what's left. In the absence of Sidious, the Trade Federation has to be built into a worthy badguy. MagFan already started down that road with the addition of slave-trading. I have more ideas to take this much, much further until Gunray is a blood-thirsty ass-kicker -- not a coward.
One idea involves manipulating footage to get him off Naboo during the climax and back onto the droid control ship. This loses the Padme-capturing-Gunray thread, streamlining the end and dropping a lot of its lamest sequences. But most of all, it shapes the story climax around Anakin-- it loads meaning into the Anakin story.
Consider if Anakin's connection to Qui Gon didn't drop when he flew off into battle-- what if Qui-Gon were mentally communicating with Anakin? What if Anakin felt Qui-Gon's death? What if he cut loose the torpedoes in anger? And what if it blew up the ship and stopped the droids and got Gunray at the same time? -- Much more satisfying.
One objection may be that we lose Gunray from Episode II-- but that can be covered a number of ways. In short, the Trade Federation can go on without him.
I've been going over the footage to construct this ending, and it's quite do-able. Making this a movie about defeating the Trade Federation straightens out so many complications that bog the story down.
If you were to only cut Sidious' presence down, what scenes would you keep? The balcony scene with Maul is the only one that can't be covered another way. But it stands out like a sore thumb, slowing down the narrative and introducing a plot of "revenge" that I still don't quite understand. Cut all Sidious, I say. Let his presence be felt by the Jedi, let his mystery grow until his appearance in Episode II when we realize just how complicated things are going to get. Keep Episode I simple-- like ANH. It should do its best to stand completely on its own.
An aspect of this strategy involves shaping Anakin.
He needs to have a special ability to communicate through the Force, to living people, without speaking. If he's going to have a link with Qui-Gon, it'll be a little different than Vader reading Luke's emotions in the OT. But being the "chosen one" makes this leap do-able; and it leads to many advantages.
-- like helping with Anakin's performance.
One big fix: when Padme first meets Anakin, the boy's acting is bad enough to make even MagFan's edit of the scene hard to take. But there's a way to make the scene feel more special. Remember: this is our first look at Anakin. What if this introduction can make him seem powerful, almost dangerous, yet still child-like and all here in his first scene? Great. But how?
Make him communicate to Padme without speaking. Cherry pick the good Anakin shots and drop all the bad ones. Let this be a scene filled with mystery as the boy reveals great power.
Padme's reactions are already in line with this. The astonishment in her expression can be combined with the addition of proper music-- the Force theme or something equally haunting. Suddenly we don't know what to expect from this kid. We see that he and Padme have a special link -- something that's sorely missing in the whole PT right now. Suddenly, we're past that awkward scene in a way that builds momentum instead of cutting it by half. Yippee! There are many places to take advantage of this -- building up Anakin's power and cutting down on his awkward performance.
That represents an edit well on its way to making Episode I a straight-forward and complete story. It's the story of some Jedi who help defeat an invasion on Naboo with the invaluable help of a powerful boy they discover on Tatooine. No Sidious stuff to worry about, no mystery surrounding Darth Maul; minimize all the meetings and Senate hearings; just stay on target in the battle to defeat the crazed and dangerous Trade Federation.
Sorry this is so frickin' long. I hope it makes sense.
EDITED TO ADD:
Just a couple new thoughts--
First, when Anakin destroys the droid ship and Qui Gon dies in Obi-Wan's arms-- the movie quickly rushes into beureaucratic stuff on Naboo and never gets back to the most important beat of all; namely: What does Anakin think about having lost Qui Gon? The answer is The Qui Gon Tone Poem: played over footage of Anakin flying the Naboo fighter after destroying the droid ship leading into a montage of quieter images-- Qui Gon's words about the hardships of the path before Anakin provide the important thematic that the whole movie is lacking. I always got a bigger charge out of the marketing of the PT than I did out of the movies. Here's the perfect place to combine them (I know Trooperman also wants to use the tone poems in Episode II -- I don't think repeating them is really a bad idea if we must. I know the Qui Gon tone poem fits most perfectly here, at the end of Episode I where the emotion over QG's death is highest.)
Second-- Undercutting my own point -- I believe there might be a perfect place to put a bit of Sidious in this movie: on the droid ship with Gunray contacting Sidious briefly before being destroyed. It should come in a brief enough window to seem inconsequential at first-- just the kind of loose end that you don't realize is important until we see this Sidious guy turn up again in Episode II. But I'm still not sure this is even a good idea because ANH works much better without these kinds of loose ends and that's supposed to be Episode IV. Episode I should have at least as solid an ending as Episode IV, imho.
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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
A quick one: in the opening sequence where the ships are flying into Coruscant-- go back to TPM for a close up of Artoo in the back of a Naboo Fighter. This would cue us into his presence and p.o.v. before we even get to the landing deck.
This is an excellent suggestion, MTH. As always, you're just brimming with great ideas.
Musically, it might be cool to think about incorporating that fluttery little droid motif from ESB whenever we see the droids.
I see you plan an interior shot on the Queen's ship here too and I think that's brilliant-- what if it can establish (falsely) that Padme's actually on board -- a shot of Padme's double or something?
A quick one: in the opening sequence where the ships are flying into Coruscant-- go back to TPM for a close up of Artoo in the back of a Naboo Fighter. This would cue us into his presence and p.o.v. before we even get to the landing deck.
This is an excellent suggestion, MTH. As always, you're just brimming with great ideas.
Musically, it might be cool to think about incorporating that fluttery little droid motif from ESB whenever we see the droids.I see you plan an interior shot on the Queen's ship here too and I think that's brilliant-- what if it can establish (falsely) that Padme's actually on board -- a shot of Padme's double or something?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that exactly what the original did? 'Senator, we're making our final approach into Coruscant."
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To Trooperman: The updates lately have been fantastic. Don't worry, we'll wait as long as it takes. The important thing is that it's done right. Let us know if we can be of assistance in any way. I'm sure all of us who follow this thread are more than willing to help out in any way we can.
Were you able to get the DVD-quality title cards you were looking for from the "Empire of Dreams" documentary, or have you still not picked up the SE Trilogy on DVD? If not, I may be of some help, just let me know.
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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
Consider it only in this light, (before I go any furhter): Episode I should play like the first movie of the Star Wars Saga. But I am dead serious when I say I believe cutting every frame of Sidious is the only way to possibly make Episode I as great as it should have been. The only way Sidious' appearance makes sense is in the context it was released -- as Sequel #4. If TPM comes after ROTJ, then yeah, let's see Sidious. But if TPM is the first movie of an OT style 6 movie SAGA-- what sense does it make to undercut all the subtlety and expose Sidious right off the bat?
You're absolutely correct. BUT, while it's difficult to deny that the Trade Federation, the character of Senator Palpatine, the film, and the saga itself would certainly be strengthened by the lack of Sidious in Episode I, my concern would be that we lose the opportunity to see Sidious as the real puppet-master of everything. And when people see him at the end of Episode II, will that scene with Dooku really communicate the importance of his character? And when we come to ROTS, will it seem as though Palpatine found the Dark Side AFTER he became Chancellor, and hadn't been manipulating Amidala, the Trade Federation, the Jedi, and everything from day one? My fear is that if not handled right, it could reduce Sidious' character to just another Sith apprentice, instead of the Ulitimate Evil that he is.
And although you tried to avoid them, there ARE repercussions that extend into the editing of Episode II. For instance, the lack of Sidious in Episode I WOULD make Dooku's reveal to Obi-Wan in Episode II much more interesting when we find out the Trade Federation had been manipulated the entire time by this mysterious Dark Lord named "Darth Sidious". This could be the big 2nd-act reveal, like ESB.
IMO, if a person decides to go this road, they'd need to do two things in Episode II: a) Replace the name Sifo-Dyas with Sidious, to build more mystery around the name and heighten the importance of the character in the viewer's mind. And b) Really communicate everything possible in that scene with Dooku and Sidious at the end, whether adding alternate dialogue or whatever to let the audience know the magnitude of who we're dealing with. If an editor could work out these small kinks, I think it could be the ultimate idea for resurrecting Episode I.
This is an absolutely stunning suggestion. I must say, MTH I was floored when I read this. This is without a doubt THE best contribution I've heard on how to improve this film. Hands down. Someone HAS to do this!
That represents an edit well on its way to making Episode I a straight-forward and complete story. It's the story of some Jedi who help defeat an invasion on Naboo with the invaluable help of a powerful boy they discover on Tatooine. No Sidious stuff to worry about, no mystery surrounding Darth Maul; minimize all the meetings and Senate hearings; just stay on target in the battle to defeat the crazed and dangerous Trade Federation.
Consider it only in this light, (before I go any furhter): Episode I should play like the first movie of the Star Wars Saga. But I am dead serious when I say I believe cutting every frame of Sidious is the only way to possibly make Episode I as great as it should have been. The only way Sidious' appearance makes sense is in the context it was released -- as Sequel #4. If TPM comes after ROTJ, then yeah, let's see Sidious. But if TPM is the first movie of an OT style 6 movie SAGA-- what sense does it make to undercut all the subtlety and expose Sidious right off the bat?
You're absolutely correct. BUT, while it's difficult to deny that the Trade Federation, the character of Senator Palpatine, the film, and the saga itself would certainly be strengthened by the lack of Sidious in Episode I, my concern would be that we lose the opportunity to see Sidious as the real puppet-master of everything. And when people see him at the end of Episode II, will that scene with Dooku really communicate the importance of his character? And when we come to ROTS, will it seem as though Palpatine found the Dark Side AFTER he became Chancellor, and hadn't been manipulating Amidala, the Trade Federation, the Jedi, and everything from day one? My fear is that if not handled right, it could reduce Sidious' character to just another Sith apprentice, instead of the Ulitimate Evil that he is.
And although you tried to avoid them, there ARE repercussions that extend into the editing of Episode II. For instance, the lack of Sidious in Episode I WOULD make Dooku's reveal to Obi-Wan in Episode II much more interesting when we find out the Trade Federation had been manipulated the entire time by this mysterious Dark Lord named "Darth Sidious". This could be the big 2nd-act reveal, like ESB.
IMO, if a person decides to go this road, they'd need to do two things in Episode II: a) Replace the name Sifo-Dyas with Sidious, to build more mystery around the name and heighten the importance of the character in the viewer's mind. And b) Really communicate everything possible in that scene with Dooku and Sidious at the end, whether adding alternate dialogue or whatever to let the audience know the magnitude of who we're dealing with. If an editor could work out these small kinks, I think it could be the ultimate idea for resurrecting Episode I.
I say cut him and strengthen what's left. In the absence of Sidious, the Trade Federation has to be built into a worthy badguy. MagFan already started down that road with the addition of slave-trading. I have more ideas to take this much, much further until Gunray is a blood-thirsty ass-kicker -- not a coward.
Sounds good! Let's hear 'em!
This is where I kind of say, "Um... I don't know." Mainly because you're elevating Gunray's status as a worthy villain, with scenes available in Episodes II and III, only to kill him off in Episode I? He needs to escape at the end, like Darth Vader in ANH. I mean, sure it would look good on Anakin's resume', but how do you deal with the whole arena battle in Episode II? It's Nute's brother Carl Gunray, thirsty for revenge against the kid who killed his brother (because it wouldn't have been Padme who took Nute down, it would now be Anakin). I dunno, I just think It would have to be constructed in a way that allows for an escape pod or something.
An aspect of this strategy involves shaping Anakin. He needs to have a special ability to communicate through the Force, to living people, without speaking. If he's going to have a link with Qui-Gon, it'll be a little different than Vader reading Luke's emotions in the OT. But being the "chosen one" makes this leap do-able; and it leads to many advantages.
Make him communicate to Padme without speaking. Cherry pick the good Anakin shots and drop all the bad ones. Let this be a scene filled with mystery as the boy reveals great power.
Padme's reactions are already in line with this. The astonishment in her expression can be combined with the addition of proper music-- the Force theme or something equally haunting. Suddenly we don't know what to expect from this kid. We see that he and Padme have a special link -- something that's sorely missing in the whole PT right now. Suddenly, we're past that awkward scene in a way that builds momentum instead of cutting it by half. Yippee! There are many places to take advantage of this -- building up Anakin's power and cutting down on his awkward performance.
Sounds good! Let's hear 'em!
One idea involves manipulating footage to get him off Naboo during the climax and back onto the droid control ship. This loses the Padme-capturing-Gunray thread, streamlining the end and dropping a lot of its lamest sequences. But most of all, it shapes the story climax around Anakin-- it loads meaning into the Anakin story.
I've thought about this possibility in the past, but I never thought it could work practically with the available footage. But, that was before I'd considered cutting the Sidious scenes.
Agreed. This is the spiritual aspect that the Prequels are sorely missing.
One objection may be that we lose Gunray from Episode II-- but that can be covered a number of ways. In short, the Trade Federation can go on without him.
I've thought about this possibility in the past, but I never thought it could work practically with the available footage. But, that was before I'd considered cutting the Sidious scenes.
Consider if Anakin's connection to Qui Gon didn't drop when he flew off into battle-- what if Qui-Gon were mentally communicating with Anakin? What if Anakin felt Qui-Gon's death? What if he cut loose the torpedoes in anger? And what if it blew up the ship and stopped the droids and got Gunray at the same time? -- Much more satisfying.
Agreed. This is the spiritual aspect that the Prequels are sorely missing.
One objection may be that we lose Gunray from Episode II-- but that can be covered a number of ways. In short, the Trade Federation can go on without him.
This is where I kind of say, "Um... I don't know." Mainly because you're elevating Gunray's status as a worthy villain, with scenes available in Episodes II and III, only to kill him off in Episode I? He needs to escape at the end, like Darth Vader in ANH. I mean, sure it would look good on Anakin's resume', but how do you deal with the whole arena battle in Episode II? It's Nute's brother Carl Gunray, thirsty for revenge against the kid who killed his brother (because it wouldn't have been Padme who took Nute down, it would now be Anakin).
I dunno, I just think It would have to be constructed in a way that allows for an escape pod or something. An aspect of this strategy involves shaping Anakin. He needs to have a special ability to communicate through the Force, to living people, without speaking. If he's going to have a link with Qui-Gon, it'll be a little different than Vader reading Luke's emotions in the OT. But being the "chosen one" makes this leap do-able; and it leads to many advantages.
Make him communicate to Padme without speaking. Cherry pick the good Anakin shots and drop all the bad ones. Let this be a scene filled with mystery as the boy reveals great power.
Padme's reactions are already in line with this. The astonishment in her expression can be combined with the addition of proper music-- the Force theme or something equally haunting. Suddenly we don't know what to expect from this kid. We see that he and Padme have a special link -- something that's sorely missing in the whole PT right now. Suddenly, we're past that awkward scene in a way that builds momentum instead of cutting it by half. Yippee! There are many places to take advantage of this -- building up Anakin's power and cutting down on his awkward performance.
This is an absolutely stunning suggestion. I must say, MTH I was floored when I read this. This is without a doubt THE best contribution I've heard on how to improve this film. Hands down. Someone HAS to do this!
That represents an edit well on its way to making Episode I a straight-forward and complete story. It's the story of some Jedi who help defeat an invasion on Naboo with the invaluable help of a powerful boy they discover on Tatooine. No Sidious stuff to worry about, no mystery surrounding Darth Maul; minimize all the meetings and Senate hearings; just stay on target in the battle to defeat the crazed and dangerous Trade Federation.
Good stuff, MTH. Good, good stuff. BUT, you haven't yet addressed what I think are the biggest detriments to the film, which are: Jar-Jar, The Padme=Handmaiden=Queen fiasco, Boss Nass, and the Gungan/Droid Battle. I'd definitely love to hear your thoughts on improving these elements as well.
And Trooperman, if you're going to consider these changes to Episode I, best to do it NOW, so you won't have to go back and change SOTDS!
P.S. - I echo the sentiments of the other posters, I'm addicted to this thread.
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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
Just a couple new thoughts--
First, when Anakin destroys the droid ship and Qui Gon dies in Obi-Wan's arms-- the movie quickly rushes into beureaucratic stuff on Naboo and never gets back to the most important beat of all; namely: What does Anakin think about having lost Qui Gon? The answer is The Qui Gon Tone Poem: played over footage of Anakin flying the Naboo fighter after destroying the droid ship leading into a montage of quieter images-- Qui Gon's words about the hardships of the path before Anakin provide the important thematic that the whole movie is lacking. I always got a bigger charge out of the marketing of the PT than I did out of the movies. Here's the perfect place to combine them (I know Trooperman also wants to use the tone poems in Episode II -- I don't think repeating them is really a bad idea if we must. I know the Qui Gon tone poem fits most perfectly here, at the end of Episode I where the emotion over QG's death is highest.)
That's an excellent idea. Qui-Gon's "voice from the grave." Very emotional.
Second-- Undercutting my own point -- I believe there might be a perfect place to put a bit of Sidious in this movie: on the droid ship with Gunray contacting Sidious briefly before being destroyed. It should come in a brief enough window to seem inconsequential at first-- just the kind of loose end that you don't realize is important until we see this Sidious guy turn up again in Episode II. But I'm still not sure this is even a good idea because ANH works much better without these kinds of loose ends and that's supposed to be Episode IV. Episode I should have at least as solid an ending as Episode IV, imho.
Just a couple new thoughts--
First, when Anakin destroys the droid ship and Qui Gon dies in Obi-Wan's arms-- the movie quickly rushes into beureaucratic stuff on Naboo and never gets back to the most important beat of all; namely: What does Anakin think about having lost Qui Gon? The answer is The Qui Gon Tone Poem: played over footage of Anakin flying the Naboo fighter after destroying the droid ship leading into a montage of quieter images-- Qui Gon's words about the hardships of the path before Anakin provide the important thematic that the whole movie is lacking. I always got a bigger charge out of the marketing of the PT than I did out of the movies. Here's the perfect place to combine them (I know Trooperman also wants to use the tone poems in Episode II -- I don't think repeating them is really a bad idea if we must. I know the Qui Gon tone poem fits most perfectly here, at the end of Episode I where the emotion over QG's death is highest.)
That's an excellent idea. Qui-Gon's "voice from the grave." Very emotional.
Second-- Undercutting my own point -- I believe there might be a perfect place to put a bit of Sidious in this movie: on the droid ship with Gunray contacting Sidious briefly before being destroyed. It should come in a brief enough window to seem inconsequential at first-- just the kind of loose end that you don't realize is important until we see this Sidious guy turn up again in Episode II. But I'm still not sure this is even a good idea because ANH works much better without these kinds of loose ends and that's supposed to be Episode IV. Episode I should have at least as solid an ending as Episode IV, imho.
Remember though, Darth Vader still got away.
I'd leave it without any mention of Sidious at all. Makes it more powerful for Dooku's reveal in Episode II.
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These ideas are all flowing so freely and so well that I think it would be a shame to lose them.
"Luminous beings are we -- not this crude matter." ~~Master Yoda
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." ~~Lord Vader
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InfoDroid: "My fear is that if not handled right, it could reduce Sidious' character to just another Sith apprentice, instead of the Ulitimate Evil that he is. "
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Understood -- this cannot be allowed, of course. The thing is the role of Palpatine will prevent this-- because his identity as Sidious' alter-ego becomes much more shocking when you are left feeling Palpatine's impact in Episode I without a hint of his other role. The stuff he says about the bureaucracy sets the fertile ground for Sidious' Episode II mischief. What seems like a simple battle in Episode I becomes the groundwork for doom in Episode II-- that's the way it was always supposed to work, but we all saw this coming a mile away because Sidious was standing front row center twisting his moustache the whole time.
Remember, without Sidious, the slow pan to Palpatine at Qui Gon's funeral becomes more meaningful and subtle. I think this is the route things would have gone if Episode I were made before ANH.
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InfoDroid: "And although you tried to avoid them, there ARE repercussions that extend into the editing of Episode II. For instance, the lack of Sidious in Episode I WOULD make Dooku's reveal to Obi-Wan in Episode II much more interesting when we find out the Trade Federation had been manipulated the entire time by this mysterious Dark Lord named "Darth Sidious". This could be the big 2nd-act reveal, like ESB."
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What a great point-- I hadn't even seen it that way, but there you go. I think the "Sypho-Dias" change to "Sidious" also becomes a major no-brainer and the answer to the problems a lot of people have with that subplot.
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InfoDroid: "Sounds good! Let's hear 'em! "
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In a nutshell, take advantage of Gunray's design and body language with subtitled dialogue that makes him eager to fight the Jedi, eager to invade Naboo, boldly stating his intentions and making command decisions at every opportunity. For example, when he's told that Jedi have come as ambassadors, let him comment something like "Hmm. It's been a while since I killed a Jedi." When the Jedi are rushing toward his command center in the opening sequence, let it be his underling who wants to close the blast shield while Gunray seems unconcerned. Let his attitude be more like, "They're still coming! This will be a battle! Let them in!" When he communicates with Amidala and she says "You won't be so happy when you hear what I have to say..." let him answer more to this effect: "I've decided there's no time left to wait. We are invading and I will soon taste your blood." Cut out all the pussy-footing and get to the attack. He sweeps in and conquers. He threatens and we believe him.
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InfoDroid: "This is where I kind of say, "Um... I don't know." Mainly because you're elevating Gunray's status as a worthy villain, with scenes available in Episodes II and III, only to kill him off in Episode I? He needs to escape at the end, like Darth Vader in ANH. I mean, sure it would look good on Anakin's resume', but how do you deal with the whole arena battle in Episode II? It's Nute's brother Carl Gunray, thirsty for revenge against the kid who killed his brother (because it wouldn't have been Padme who took Nute down, it would now be Anakin). ."
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I hadn't looked at it that way-- but I think those later Episode scenes will work as you suggest. To cover his death on the droid ship, you came up with two options I'd thought of too. I lean toward having, as you put it, "Carl Gunray" in the sequels because it makes him more interesting -- in fact his cowardly manner could be left in tact in the sequels-- to differentiate Carl from Nute.
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Good stuff, MTH. Good, good stuff. BUT, you haven't yet addressed what I think are the biggest detriments to the film, which are: Jar-Jar, The Padme=Handmaiden=Queen fiasco, Boss Nass, and the Gungan/Droid Battle. I'd definitely love to hear your thoughts on improving these elements as well.
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THANKS! Glad it doesn't sound like a brain-fart to you, at least.
As to Jar-Jar, Padme/Handmaiden, Boss Nass, and the Gungan battle-- I have a lot of problems with that stuff as well. I believe MagFan helped those issues tremendously, however, and I would simply take the ball further down the field starting from where he left off. This amounts to a long list of additional cuts, screen-flips, and out-right omissions. The raised tension of having Gunray in charge and kicking ass means one big thing: send Darth Maul after Padme a lot sooner. Have him reach Tatooine before the sand storm. Keep the tension up and the plot clear. That will help a lot.
One of my biggest problems is with Captain Tanaka. I think that guy's a douche and his costume is the silliest of the entire Saga-- worse than Jar Jar's. Editing the whole escape to Tatooine so that it emphasizes the tension better would mean cutting tons of material out of there-- like the "His number is artoo-deetoo"/"I do not agree with the Jedi on this" scene. His other scenes can be trimmed within an inch of their life too-- especially with Maul on Tatooine raising the tension and making Qui-Gon's need to win the pod-race more urgent.
Boss Nass needs to be reduced more too-- but since I'm changing the shape of the climax, we don't need to hear all of Amidala's plan before it happens-- and that's one more Nass scene we can omit. And with the new emphasis on Anakin's role in the climax, I think we can cut ALL of Jar Jar's antics on the battle-field and it will help things. The reason MagFan didn't cut more, I am convinced, is that without Jar-Jar's "heroism", the climax is truly awful with Padme bumbling along to capture Gunray and Anakin bumbling along to destroy the droid ship. These two plans can be severely changed: have Padme get caught trying to catch Gunray-- truly failing because Gunray's on the droid ship. Have Anakin feel Qui Gon's death and destroy the droid ship and Gunray and win the battle single-handed. Suddenly all the emphasis is where it should be: on Anakin. And all the Jar Jar stuff is totally unnecessary. With the Anakin story actually providing dramatic force-- that Jar Jar stuff can finally go.
The Handmaiden stuff is still necessary, but can be dramatically reduced with a couple clever edits-- one, her "space is cold" scene with Anakin can be played without dialogue and actually have dramatic power. Two: the scene where Anakin goes to say goodbye to her and meets Amidala changing can be cut completely. The whole Coruscant sequence needs to be reduced by at least 1/3-- put all the Palpatine/Senate stuff into one continuous sequence (cut the actual Senate meeting down by half-- it's easy) and all the Jedi/Anakin stuff into a second sequence-- then end it with Amidala's decision to leave and suddenly the scenes can each be dramatically reduced. (With some clever re-ordering) they flow better this way and we get off that stinking city-planet and back to the battle a lot faster. I think the "Anakin shows Padme his droid C3P0" scene can be moved to make Padme come off better there too. There are a lot of opportunities left.
Streamlining everything around Qui-Gon and Anakin is the answer to saving this movie, imho. That occurs by beefing up the Trade Federation and letting Anakin defeat them with Qui-Gon's help. I think ALL the tone poems could actually play a role in making this work -- using Maul's to beef his character up before his big battle, using Shmi's to beef up the underwhelming good-bye scene; the new, quieter and more powerful Anakin will allow this stuff to work.
As long as someone else does the work for me-- }:-(
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The movie's gonna be twenty minutes long! Hahaha!Seriously though, I agree with pretty much everything you said, MTH. I look forward to actually seeing a version of this in a few years. Trooperman can call it "The Carl Gunray Edit".
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The first act ends with the decision to race Anakin in a contest to get the parts for the Queen's ship. That happens at about minute 40!
The story is so poorly structured that the movie basically flops around trying to cover all the bases --
But picking a story to tell makes a lot of that stuff unnecessary.
It would actually leave room to add some of the basic OT ingredients that are missing -- like the charming droid sequences and the long panoramic shots that established Tatooine in ANH. All the stuff Trooperman is trying to work back in.
"Gunray. Carl Gunray. At your service. You killed my brother. Prepare to die."
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"Gunray. Carl Gunray. At your service. You killed my brother. Prepare to die."
Now THAT is funny!
Very good idea. But the ultimate authority on that would have to be Trooperman. It's probably time to start looking at this as a piece of a six-part saga, instead of an isolated thing. Because, as it has happened with other edits (like Darth Editous' ANH) as soon as everyone has SOTDS, they'll be clamouring for more. And you don't want to paint yourself into a corner, do you, TM?
TM: "I’ve concluded that this could possibly have a lot to do with the actual framing of the shots in the prequels. Very rarely do we get many good close-ups at all; it’s usually from the chest up, with some space above the head as well. In a very real sense, everything feels far away because the actual camera never gets close."
Now THAT is funny!
Originally posted by: TheDemonHunter
Just as a thought, if this is going to become a complete trilogy redo, someone might want to start taking notes to put together a "bible" of sorts for the new universe that's being created so good ideas don't become impossible because of other changes. A basic timeline of events and possible shots used to represent them perhaps.
Just as a thought, if this is going to become a complete trilogy redo, someone might want to start taking notes to put together a "bible" of sorts for the new universe that's being created so good ideas don't become impossible because of other changes. A basic timeline of events and possible shots used to represent them perhaps.
Very good idea. But the ultimate authority on that would have to be Trooperman. It's probably time to start looking at this as a piece of a six-part saga, instead of an isolated thing. Because, as it has happened with other edits (like Darth Editous' ANH) as soon as everyone has SOTDS, they'll be clamouring for more. And you don't want to paint yourself into a corner, do you, TM?
TM: "I’ve concluded that this could possibly have a lot to do with the actual framing of the shots in the prequels. Very rarely do we get many good close-ups at all; it’s usually from the chest up, with some space above the head as well. In a very real sense, everything feels far away because the actual camera never gets close."
That's because they needed room to add 45,000 digital vehicles speeding by in the background.
I agree. Most of the cinematography was horrible. Nothing like the OT.
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One idea involves manipulating footage to get him off Naboo during the climax and back onto the droid control ship. This loses the Padme-capturing-Gunray thread, streamlining the end and dropping a lot of its lamest sequences.
Gunray leaving the planet would be an obvious way to help the removal of the "capture the viceroy finale," and also explain why he is still in power with the Trade Federation come Episodes 2 and 3. I'd say some dialogue between Nute and Rune in the Palace after the control ship is destroyed addressing their need to evacuate would work for this scenario. They have been arrogantly monitoring the battle only to find their army rendered useless and now they have to make a run for it. One line in particular I have in mind, "What about the Sith?" "Lord Grievous can take care of himself. Come on!" No need for them to die, as InfoDroid points out, Darth Vader survived ANH after all. Since Nute is being made into a more formidable adversary why kill him off in 1 when he is in 2 and 3 already anyway? The notion of "Carl" is amusing but would create more problems than it would solve.
Qui-Gon's will work because of his voiceover nature at that point. The rest, not so much. And I thought Anakin's goodbye to his mother was excellent.
"Gunray. Carl Gunray. At your service. You killed my brother. Prepare to die."
Gunray leaving the planet would be an obvious way to help the removal of the "capture the viceroy finale," and also explain why he is still in power with the Trade Federation come Episodes 2 and 3. I'd say some dialogue between Nute and Rune in the Palace after the control ship is destroyed addressing their need to evacuate would work for this scenario. They have been arrogantly monitoring the battle only to find their army rendered useless and now they have to make a run for it. One line in particular I have in mind, "What about the Sith?" "Lord Grievous can take care of himself. Come on!" No need for them to die, as InfoDroid points out, Darth Vader survived ANH after all. Since Nute is being made into a more formidable adversary why kill him off in 1 when he is in 2 and 3 already anyway? The notion of "Carl" is amusing but would create more problems than it would solve.
Consider if Anakin's connection to Qui Gon didn't drop when he flew off into battle-- what if Qui-Gon were mentally communicating with Anakin?
I posted some very specific ideas on this a few pages back, and those stil stand. No lashing out in anger with the torpedoes, just Anakin "concentrating on the moment" and all that.
-Interesting opinion on the Japor snippet scene, but I think some dialogue is needed to establish just what it is Anakin's giving to Padme.
-Yes, Anakin going to say goodbye to Padme only to meet Amidala MUST go.
-The rest of your editing suggestions on Coruscant I disagree with, as I think they are fine as they are in the movie.
-Something must be done about 3P0, that's for sure.
I think ALL the tone poems could actually play a role in making this work -- using Maul's to beef his character up before his big battle, using Shmi's to beef up the underwhelming good-bye scene; the new, quieter and more powerful Anakin will allow this stuff to work.
I posted some very specific ideas on this a few pages back, and those stil stand. No lashing out in anger with the torpedoes, just Anakin "concentrating on the moment" and all that.
If you were to only cut Sidious' presence down, what scenes would you keep? The balcony scene with Maul is the only one that can't be covered another way. But it stands out like a sore thumb, slowing down the narrative and introducing a plot of "revenge" that I still don't quite understand.
Good point about the balcony scene, as it also establishes Sidious on Coruscant, something that I've just now realized was a terrible idea. I love the establishing music for the scene though and Maul has his famous, "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have revenge." I'd hate to lose this but it's indeed looking like it must go along with the rest of Sidious. I must be promised this music be used somewhere else in the PT though! (I'm thinking Episode 3) If we can't devise a way to absolutely omit Sidious, a less extensive form of what you've proposed would be cutting down his communications with the TF to 2 or 3 exchanges with all pertanent info edited into them. Just another option for TM to consider.
Yes! When my friends and I watch TPM we always find it amusing to focus on this guy's negativity. And Maul arrving on Tatooine earlier is a smart move.
The Handmaiden stuff is still necessary, but can be dramatically reduced with a couple clever edits-- one, her "space is cold" scene with Anakin can be played without dialogue and actually have dramatic power. Two: the scene where Anakin goes to say goodbye to her and meets Amidala changing can be cut completely. The whole Coruscant sequence needs to be reduced by at least 1/3-- put all the Palpatine/Senate stuff into one continuous sequence (cut the actual Senate meeting down by half-- it's easy) and all the Jedi/Anakin stuff into a second sequence-- then end it with Amidala's decision to leave and suddenly the scenes can each be dramatically reduced. (With some clever re-ordering) they flow better this way and we get off that stinking city-planet and back to the battle a lot faster. I think the "Anakin shows Padme his droid C3P0" scene can be moved to make Padme come off better there too. There are a lot of opportunities left.
Good point about the balcony scene, as it also establishes Sidious on Coruscant, something that I've just now realized was a terrible idea. I love the establishing music for the scene though and Maul has his famous, "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have revenge." I'd hate to lose this but it's indeed looking like it must go along with the rest of Sidious. I must be promised this music be used somewhere else in the PT though! (I'm thinking Episode 3) If we can't devise a way to absolutely omit Sidious, a less extensive form of what you've proposed would be cutting down his communications with the TF to 2 or 3 exchanges with all pertanent info edited into them. Just another option for TM to consider.
He needs to have a special ability to communicate through the Force, to living people, without speaking. If he's going to have a link with Qui-Gon, it'll be a little different than Vader reading Luke's emotions in the OT. But being the "chosen one" makes this leap do-able; and it leads to many advantages.
I can see where you're going with this but it doesn't do much but cause more confusion IMO. Outside the first Padme conversation this would seem totally out of place. If it could be achieved in this one scene only however, I might go along with it. You're absolutely right about her reactions.
MagnoliaFan shared a way to remove Syfo-Dias with TM, and although they aren't going to reveal it I've always suspected this is what it was. Just snip Obi-Wan's references to him being killed and all that and there you go. Qui-Gon would also be an interesting name to plug in there, but I don't think it could be resolves properly.
One of my biggest problems is with Captain Tanaka. I think that guy's a douche and his costume is the silliest of the entire Saga-- worse than Jar Jar's. Editing the whole escape to Tatooine so that it emphasizes the tension better would mean cutting tons of material out of there-- like the "His number is artoo-deetoo"/"I do not agree with the Jedi on this" scene. His other scenes can be trimmed within an inch of their life too-- especially with Maul on Tatooine raising the tension and making Qui-Gon's need to win the pod-race more urgent.
I can see where you're going with this but it doesn't do much but cause more confusion IMO. Outside the first Padme conversation this would seem totally out of place. If it could be achieved in this one scene only however, I might go along with it. You're absolutely right about her reactions.
First, when Anakin destroys the droid ship and Qui Gon dies in Obi-Wan's arms-- the movie quickly rushes into beureaucratic stuff on Naboo and never gets back to the most important beat of all; namely: What does Anakin think about having lost Qui Gon? The answer is The Qui Gon Tone Poem: played over footage of Anakin flying the Naboo fighter after destroying the droid ship leading into a montage of quieter images-- Qui Gon's words about the hardships of the path before Anakin provide the important thematic that the whole movie is lacking. I always got a bigger charge out of the marketing of the PT than I did out of the movies. Here's the perfect place to combine them (I know Trooperman also wants to use the tone poems in Episode II -- I don't think repeating them is really a bad idea if we must. I know the Qui Gon tone poem fits most perfectly here, at the end of Episode I where the emotion over QG's death is highest.)
Yes! This is what I was looking to acheive when I suggestion this play in Anakin's head at Qui-Gon's funeral. I always thought it wouldn't fit in very well there, and I was right. I hope approriate Anakin footage can be found to accompany this. (This is very much like "Remember, the Force will be with you, always..." at the end of ANH, which I'm sure is what gave you the inspiration for it.)
Yes, it's as if that's what the shot was originally intended to do, but it's signifigance got lost somewhere because of various things such as Sidious' presence in the film and the audience knowing Palpatine would become the Emperor.
"Sypho-Dias" change to "Sidious" also becomes a major no-brainer and the answer to the problems a lot of people have with that subplot.
Yes! This is what I was looking to acheive when I suggestion this play in Anakin's head at Qui-Gon's funeral. I always thought it wouldn't fit in very well there, and I was right. I hope approriate Anakin footage can be found to accompany this. (This is very much like "Remember, the Force will be with you, always..." at the end of ANH, which I'm sure is what gave you the inspiration for it.)
Remember, without Sidious, the slow pan to Palpatine at Qui Gon's funeral becomes more meaningful and subtle. I think this is the route things would have gone if Episode I were made before ANH.
Yes, it's as if that's what the shot was originally intended to do, but it's signifigance got lost somewhere because of various things such as Sidious' presence in the film and the audience knowing Palpatine would become the Emperor.
"Sypho-Dias" change to "Sidious" also becomes a major no-brainer and the answer to the problems a lot of people have with that subplot.
MagnoliaFan shared a way to remove Syfo-Dias with TM, and although they aren't going to reveal it I've always suspected this is what it was. Just snip Obi-Wan's references to him being killed and all that and there you go. Qui-Gon would also be an interesting name to plug in there, but I don't think it could be resolves properly.
One of my biggest problems is with Captain Tanaka. I think that guy's a douche and his costume is the silliest of the entire Saga-- worse than Jar Jar's. Editing the whole escape to Tatooine so that it emphasizes the tension better would mean cutting tons of material out of there-- like the "His number is artoo-deetoo"/"I do not agree with the Jedi on this" scene. His other scenes can be trimmed within an inch of their life too-- especially with Maul on Tatooine raising the tension and making Qui-Gon's need to win the pod-race more urgent.
Yes! When my friends and I watch TPM we always find it amusing to focus on this guy's negativity. And Maul arrving on Tatooine earlier is a smart move.
The Handmaiden stuff is still necessary, but can be dramatically reduced with a couple clever edits-- one, her "space is cold" scene with Anakin can be played without dialogue and actually have dramatic power. Two: the scene where Anakin goes to say goodbye to her and meets Amidala changing can be cut completely. The whole Coruscant sequence needs to be reduced by at least 1/3-- put all the Palpatine/Senate stuff into one continuous sequence (cut the actual Senate meeting down by half-- it's easy) and all the Jedi/Anakin stuff into a second sequence-- then end it with Amidala's decision to leave and suddenly the scenes can each be dramatically reduced. (With some clever re-ordering) they flow better this way and we get off that stinking city-planet and back to the battle a lot faster. I think the "Anakin shows Padme his droid C3P0" scene can be moved to make Padme come off better there too. There are a lot of opportunities left.
-Interesting opinion on the Japor snippet scene, but I think some dialogue is needed to establish just what it is Anakin's giving to Padme.
-Yes, Anakin going to say goodbye to Padme only to meet Amidala MUST go.
-The rest of your editing suggestions on Coruscant I disagree with, as I think they are fine as they are in the movie.
-Something must be done about 3P0, that's for sure.
I think ALL the tone poems could actually play a role in making this work -- using Maul's to beef his character up before his big battle, using Shmi's to beef up the underwhelming good-bye scene; the new, quieter and more powerful Anakin will allow this stuff to work.
Qui-Gon's will work because of his voiceover nature at that point. The rest, not so much. And I thought Anakin's goodbye to his mother was excellent.
"Gunray. Carl Gunray. At your service. You killed my brother. Prepare to die."
Nice! Anyway, I hope my criticism has been constructive, and I of course look forward to further discussion on this matter.
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Originally posted by: Commander Courage
And I thought Anakin's goodbye to his mother was excellent.
And I thought Anakin's goodbye to his mother was excellent.
No offense, but Anakin's goodbye to his mother was a stale, botched example of emotionlessness dressed up as emotion. Everyone was saying what they should've, but it was cardboard, nothing beneath the surface. Anakin and Shmi were just talking heads. And therefore the audience couldn't connect to it emotionally. I'm not sure how you connected to it, but... I think John Williams tried the best he could to inject some emotional music in the scene, but ultimately the scene falls flat.
And the same thing happened in AOTC when Anakin is knelt at his mother's gravesite, just as the music rises and you begin to feel the pain Anakin is experiencing, the scene is abruptly cut short by an annoying C-3PO.
If Spielberg had done it, it would've made us cry.
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Originally posted by: InfoDroid<br
Very good idea. But the ultimate authority on that would have to be Trooperman. It's probably time to start looking at this as a piece of a six-part saga, instead of an isolated thing. Because, as it has happened with other edits (like Darth Editous' ANH) as soon as everyone has SOTDS, they'll be clamouring for more. And you don't want to paint yourself into a corner, do you, TM?
Originally posted by: TheDemonHunter
Just as a thought, if this is going to become a complete trilogy redo, someone might want to start taking notes to put together a "bible" of sorts for the new universe that's being created so good ideas don't become impossible because of other changes. A basic timeline of events and possible shots used to represent them perhaps.
Just as a thought, if this is going to become a complete trilogy redo, someone might want to start taking notes to put together a "bible" of sorts for the new universe that's being created so good ideas don't become impossible because of other changes. A basic timeline of events and possible shots used to represent them perhaps.
Very good idea. But the ultimate authority on that would have to be Trooperman. It's probably time to start looking at this as a piece of a six-part saga, instead of an isolated thing. Because, as it has happened with other edits (like Darth Editous' ANH) as soon as everyone has SOTDS, they'll be clamouring for more. And you don't want to paint yourself into a corner, do you, TM?
Oh of course, I agree completely! But better to start ahead of time befoere the ideas become lost. That way if TM (or even someone else completely if he gets burned out and wants to pass it off) wants to work on further edits in this vein, the info is there to provide a cohesive vision. The lack of any cohesive vision is one of the things that most of us found bothersome about the PT. While Trooperman works out the details of this project, I don't think there's anything wrong with speculating on how his changes would have an effect on what would need to be shown in the other two prequels to make it all come together properly. And if we can keep track of everything now, it becomes easier later. Plan big in case you need it.
Just my opinion though.
That having been said, if SOTDS is the only prequel remade this way, it will still stand head and shoulders above all the others, simply because of the volume of work and the number of changes worked into it. So far this looks to be a tremendous achievement and it's only natural that people will be clamoring for more. Kudos to Trooperman for undertaking such a project, no matter the outcome.
"Luminous beings are we -- not this crude matter." ~~Master Yoda
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." ~~Lord Vader
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Yeah, I've been struck by ideas for Episode I ever since hearing the idea of cutting Sidious. I ain't consciously trying to make it as much like ANH as possible, but I think you're right -- that's what I seem to be doing. It really comes down to trying to make the movie a stand-alone story. As much as possible. I think that's what the first Episode should do. I am totally into discussing this stuff to get the best movie possible. I am guided most by the power and emotion I got from the Phantom Menace marketing-- that stuff had exactly the right "Every Saga Has a Beginning" tone-- but the movie fell short.
I suggest the biggest ways the movie falls short (among a crowd of "ways") is in the end. Disarming the Trade Federation means nothing when you know Sidious is the real boss; The characters who carry out the final battles suffer various problems (Jar Jar stinks, Padme is stiff and unconvincing, and Anakin wins by accident). But the biggest structural let-down is that there's nothing going on character-wise. No one is in danger of growing, experiencing change, or being faced with a leap-of-faith decision.
The most obvious center of interest is Anakin, the central figure of the entire Saga. The final battle in Episode I, I submit, has to affect him personally.
Originally posted by: Commander Courage
I respectfully disagree about the goodbye -- just like Infodroid, I find it stiff and forced when it should be soft and poetic -- something the tone poem accomplished. With Anakin's ability to speak without words, this tone poem could actually play in the movie and do double duty to establish the mental link with Shmi that plays such a huge role in Episode II. Maybe not the whole dang poem, but a couple key lines and smoother editing and the scene would play WAY better to me.
Nice! Anyway, I hope my criticism has been constructive, and I of course look forward to further discussion on this matter.
I think many of your other suggestions are overdoing it a bit. I had no intention of delving into this at this time, but I can't help myself, let us discuss:
It sounds like we "disagree" on just a few points, so let's discuss those--
I might agree with you if the entire Coruscant sequence didn't bring all momentum to a halt. Exposition by the truckload is covered, but dramatically the only accomplishment is that Amidala decides to go back to Naboo. The staggering of Senate stuff/Council stuff/Senate stuff/Council stuff slows everything even more and interrupts a couple of nice character arcs-- Padme's realization that the Senate can't help is nice, but I urge you to imagine a version of the movie where the same insights come faster and get us back into the meat of the story faster-- and the Jedi Council stuff is repetitive and underwhelming in a couple ways because attention is split between Qui-Gon's frustrations and Anakin's growing awe/unease. I would recut to emphasize Anakin's p.o.v. by reducing Obi-Wan's role -- honing things down to Qui Gon/Anakin.
Qui-Gon's [tone poem] will work because of his voiceover nature at that point. The rest, not so much. And I thought Anakin's goodbye to his mother was excellent.
It sounds like we "disagree" on just a few points, so let's discuss those--
No need for them to die, as InfoDroid points out, Darth Vader survived ANH after all. Since Nute is being made into a more formidable adversary why kill him off in 1 when he is in 2 and 3 already anyway? The notion of "Carl" is amusing but would create more problems than it would solve.
Having Nute escape could drain a lot of power out of the end if it isn't done right. Vader may have escaped in ANH, but Tarkin did not. Nute is the big cheese, not the henchman. If he escapes, then even less is accomplished than in the original cut where he is at least captured. If he can escape in utter defeat somehow, that might work, but the emphasis has to be on his defeat, not his escape. I know blowing him up will FEEL the best. The joke of "Carl" is undermining a logical solution-- there is nothing special about Nute other than his position atop the Trade Federation. Having a replacement character whose characterization is submissive and weak, like the current Nute, solves everything while creating only the problem of covering his "introduction." Once it's established that the new submissive "Viceroy Gunray" is there to replace the blood thirsty bastard who died in Episode I, everything else stays the same.
If you're right, which I'm not sure you are because I think it's clear enough in the visuals, then this little bit of dialogue could be done in the telepathic way of their first meeting and mean a lot more. This scene has good visuals, but awful dialogue. If this were a second instance of Anakin speaking without words, it would reinforce a special connection between Anakin and Padme -- a good thing.
-The rest of your editing suggestions on Coruscant I disagree with, as I think they are fine as they are in the movie.
Having Nute escape could drain a lot of power out of the end if it isn't done right. Vader may have escaped in ANH, but Tarkin did not. Nute is the big cheese, not the henchman. If he escapes, then even less is accomplished than in the original cut where he is at least captured. If he can escape in utter defeat somehow, that might work, but the emphasis has to be on his defeat, not his escape. I know blowing him up will FEEL the best. The joke of "Carl" is undermining a logical solution-- there is nothing special about Nute other than his position atop the Trade Federation. Having a replacement character whose characterization is submissive and weak, like the current Nute, solves everything while creating only the problem of covering his "introduction." Once it's established that the new submissive "Viceroy Gunray" is there to replace the blood thirsty bastard who died in Episode I, everything else stays the same.
I posted some very specific ideas on this a few pages back, and those stil stand. No lashing out in anger with the torpedoes, just Anakin "concentrating on the moment" and all that.
I apologize, but I don't remember -- why no lashing out in anger? If Anakin feels Qui Gon's death, then we have an opportunity for the emotional growth that is so sorely missing in this movie. If he lashes out emotionally, then we get a hint of the danger everyone senses from this boy. If all he does is "concentrate on the moment" and do good Jedi stuff, how is it different than the pod-race?
Well, outside the first Padme conversation I wouldn't want to do it much. The only other places I'd want it was in the climax-- establishing the link with Qui Gon -- and in the farewell with his Mom (to be discussed). I saw many scenes that MIGHT improve with this technique, but less is usually more. I think this first meeting is the biggest place where this "power" can help-- it gives Padme a secret she knows about Anakin which Qui Gon discovers in his own way. It also creates a sense of interest and suspense-- what will happen with this special boy? That's a much better sense than what the scene currently achieves -- which is basically "A meets B and we all know what that means, so there's no need for any actual emotion to occur in this scene."
-Interesting opinion on the Japor snippet scene, but I think some dialogue is needed to establish just what it is Anakin's giving to Padme.
I apologize, but I don't remember -- why no lashing out in anger? If Anakin feels Qui Gon's death, then we have an opportunity for the emotional growth that is so sorely missing in this movie. If he lashes out emotionally, then we get a hint of the danger everyone senses from this boy. If all he does is "concentrate on the moment" and do good Jedi stuff, how is it different than the pod-race?
I must be promised this music be used somewhere else in the PT though! (I'm thinking Episode 3)
Sounds good to me! What do you make of the "now we will have our revenge" line? What is Maul getting revenge for? Was this ever brought up again? Did Dukoo want revenge too? I didn't get it.
I can see where you're going with this but it doesn't do much but cause more confusion IMO. Outside the first Padme conversation this would seem totally out of place. If it could be achieved in this one scene only however, I might go along with it. You're absolutely right about her reactions.
Sounds good to me! What do you make of the "now we will have our revenge" line? What is Maul getting revenge for? Was this ever brought up again? Did Dukoo want revenge too? I didn't get it.
I can see where you're going with this but it doesn't do much but cause more confusion IMO. Outside the first Padme conversation this would seem totally out of place. If it could be achieved in this one scene only however, I might go along with it. You're absolutely right about her reactions.
Well, outside the first Padme conversation I wouldn't want to do it much. The only other places I'd want it was in the climax-- establishing the link with Qui Gon -- and in the farewell with his Mom (to be discussed). I saw many scenes that MIGHT improve with this technique, but less is usually more. I think this first meeting is the biggest place where this "power" can help-- it gives Padme a secret she knows about Anakin which Qui Gon discovers in his own way. It also creates a sense of interest and suspense-- what will happen with this special boy? That's a much better sense than what the scene currently achieves -- which is basically "A meets B and we all know what that means, so there's no need for any actual emotion to occur in this scene."
-Interesting opinion on the Japor snippet scene, but I think some dialogue is needed to establish just what it is Anakin's giving to Padme.
If you're right, which I'm not sure you are because I think it's clear enough in the visuals, then this little bit of dialogue could be done in the telepathic way of their first meeting and mean a lot more. This scene has good visuals, but awful dialogue. If this were a second instance of Anakin speaking without words, it would reinforce a special connection between Anakin and Padme -- a good thing.
-The rest of your editing suggestions on Coruscant I disagree with, as I think they are fine as they are in the movie.
I might agree with you if the entire Coruscant sequence didn't bring all momentum to a halt. Exposition by the truckload is covered, but dramatically the only accomplishment is that Amidala decides to go back to Naboo. The staggering of Senate stuff/Council stuff/Senate stuff/Council stuff slows everything even more and interrupts a couple of nice character arcs-- Padme's realization that the Senate can't help is nice, but I urge you to imagine a version of the movie where the same insights come faster and get us back into the meat of the story faster-- and the Jedi Council stuff is repetitive and underwhelming in a couple ways because attention is split between Qui-Gon's frustrations and Anakin's growing awe/unease. I would recut to emphasize Anakin's p.o.v. by reducing Obi-Wan's role -- honing things down to Qui Gon/Anakin.
Qui-Gon's [tone poem] will work because of his voiceover nature at that point. The rest, not so much. And I thought Anakin's goodbye to his mother was excellent.
I respectfully disagree about the goodbye -- just like Infodroid, I find it stiff and forced when it should be soft and poetic -- something the tone poem accomplished. With Anakin's ability to speak without words, this tone poem could actually play in the movie and do double duty to establish the mental link with Shmi that plays such a huge role in Episode II. Maybe not the whole dang poem, but a couple key lines and smoother editing and the scene would play WAY better to me.
Nice! Anyway, I hope my criticism has been constructive, and I of course look forward to further discussion on this matter.
Me too! These ideas got me fired up about what Episode I could be. SOTD has me jazzed about Episode II -- and I'm already a fan of the release cut of ROTS. It can only get better with careful treatment from Trooperman. I think we have a good chance of "rescuing" the entire PT. I think SOTD will have the power I got from the AOTC marketing. If Episode I could become as emotionally satisfying as the ads promised it would be, we'd really have something!
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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
I am guided most by the power and emotion I got from the Phantom Menace marketing-- that stuff had exactly the right "Every Saga Has a Beginning" tone-- but the movie fell short.
If Episode I could become as emotionally satisfying as the ads promised it would be, we'd really have something!
I am guided most by the power and emotion I got from the Phantom Menace marketing-- that stuff had exactly the right "Every Saga Has a Beginning" tone-- but the movie fell short.
If Episode I could become as emotionally satisfying as the ads promised it would be, we'd really have something!
I know what you mean about the trailers and ad campaign. After you mentioned the tone poems I went back and popped in the DVD and watched 'em all again along with the trailers. God, I remember seeing those trailers in the theater and being absolutely slackjawed. I think we were all in heaven during those few months before the movie came out, saying to ourselves "this is finally it, after sixteen years of waiting for a new Star Wars movie". >sigh<
And then we saw the movie... LOL!
One of the biggest things that contributes to that feeling we get when we watch those trailers (even today) is the juxtaposition of the classic ANH music with the dazzling prequel-era images. Same thing goes for the AOTC trailers (which I loved almost as much TPM). The music has a lot to do with it. Why do those same images feel stale in one context, but exciting when matched up with better music?
Like SOTDS, one of the essential requirements for a true Phantom Menace resurrection would be a complete musical re-haul. Almost everything must go.
I also noticed the reason the entire third act of TPM felt disjointed was the lack of musical synchronicity. Ben Burtt hacked up the score so much in editing that every time you cut to Anakin, or Padme, or Jar-Jar, or the Duel the music is completely different. There is no flow of music to bond the different sequences into one narrative. It was not that way in ROTJ.
Not that the music was very good to begin with (with the exception of Duel of the Fates)... I've noticed that you can edit out huge chunks of certain scenes in that movie and not detect a musical jump whatsoever. That's pretty bad. Not the case in the OT.