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Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released) — Page 24

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Originally posted by: Arklaine
Has Trooperman done away with the idea of force lightning for Dooku entirely?

I’ve not read right back down the thread for a while so I can’t remember the specifics, but I thought he was going with the idea of Dooku being a Sith… However, I admit I don’t know the mythology (for the prequels, at least) well enough to know whether that validates force lightning in itself?

I certainly didn’t have a problem with him using it, even though Plap’s other boys never saw the need… Maul was more of a swordsman, and Vader was more of a sliced up despot who controlled through force of will and, er, THE force. I felt the variety of the apprentices and their abilities gave the three new films a bit more interest than they might have had.



I view it tiny bit differently. Lightning is for one guy only, the emperor. Dooku I think of dooku in terms of how he is, not by what he does. He's a much more advanced and accomplished jedi/sith than all the rest except Sidious pretty much, so why make lightning look like such a pitiful and cheap tactic to use in battle when a lightsaber can so easily block it. Did he not notice the big glowing blue thingy obiwan was holding. It just makes dooku look like an idiot.... It's sooo painfully obvious GL didn't really put more than two seconds of thought into his character and just wanted count dracula in his movie unlike peter jackson who cast the perfect person for the role he needed. So dookie, like Yoda, I would have liked to have seen never eva pick up a brute force weapon since like Yoda told luke, "his ally is the force and a powerful ally it is.... Your weapons, you will not need them..." It's like reachihng true mastery requires one to acknowledge more than "crude matter" Oh well, that went out the window and splattered all over the cgi ground.

Vader has been said to be the ultimate combination of all the pt villians. Maul: the primal, hateful animal. Dooku: Logical, cool-headed, honorable kind of evil. Grievous: Mechanical menace. So I like that whole dynamic too. It's like his destiny was around him all along or something.

Well that's my view. I wish there was a level of force use that went beyond bashing sticks of light together as well as a powers reserved for only the greatest of dark side users. It just seems weird that dooku could be so dominant in ep2 and go out like a boba in ep3, but that's star wars for you...

He big in nothing important in good elephant.

"Miss you, I will, Original Trilogy..."

"Your midichlorians are weak, Old man." -Darth Vader 2007 super deluxe extra special dipped in chocolate sauce edition.

http://prequelsstink.ytmnd.com/
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Forgive me for not stepping in sooner, guys- I was absolutely swamped over the past few days. An insane amount of “real” work. I am absolutely the happiest I’ve ever been regarding public input for my film. I want to make the best film possible, a film that’ll stand up under scrutiny and hold up for years to come. And you guys are the biggest reason why it’ll work. So much intelligent discussion, outlines for cutting scenes, and overall conceptual discussion. Finally, I feel as though we’re reaching as high a point as we could reach if we all got together in the living room and had a series of meetings about this film. You guys are my collaborators! And originaltrilogy.com is a wonderful place, too; I’ve taken a look at some other Star Wars forums on the net, and the lack of kindness and intelligent posting is shocking. This project would not have been welcomed there as it is here. And for that I’m so grateful. Thank you all.

Without further ado, as the saying goes, let’s start…

“At the end of the conversation, as you know, anakin intimidates watto into cutting the crap by puffing his face and say "i'd like to know". I thought what would be cooler is if you had anakin look at watto and then say something along the lines of " if you don't tell me , i'll tear both of those wings right off", THEN have the shot of padme looking from watto to anakin and then cut to watto's reaction of "sure , ah sure, lets go look at my records".”

I actually like that idea a lot. I can definitely see Anakin saying something like, “You’d better find out before I tear both of those wings off,” particularly when it’s involving his mother, the most important person in his life. So this actually helps the new plot a lot as well. Anakin isn’t messing around.

I like it

“I remember watching in the theaters and thinking it was an awkward cut because anakin hardly made a groan. Since your doing the adr, maybe you could throw in a nice painful yell (similar to luke in ESB) to give the scene more of a shock effect. Maybe have the music effect the action as well with something creepy.”

Absolutely. And before I record this yell, I will think about what it would feel like to get a limb cut off. Which brings me to another point- my own problems with Padme coming back to the hangar/shooting at Dooku are that 1. Padme looks silly shooting at Dooku 2. Obi-Wan just stands up, after being immobile ever since getting a little cut from Dooku (by the way, in my cut, Obi-Wan really is hurt- he doesn’t toss the saber to Anakin. I was able to cut it so that Anakin uses the force to get the saber. Obi-Wan isn’t involved. 3. Anakin stands up at the end of this scene and hugs Padme. Give me a break!- if I just lost an arm, I would be seriously hurt.

So I very much like the idea that came up that we cut away to Padme at the end of the fight (with dark chords- somber music) and then go back to Yoda. Cut to the two limp bodies of the Jedi, and end scene. The Jedi never get up and Padme never enters the hangar. This avoids all of those contradictions, is darker, and most importantly, it’ll definitely work fundamentally- I already have it in my mind. And thanks Twister- but I do already have access to the “Yes” line from the theatrical. I won’t say how


“And finally, those shots of the outlander club with the creepier residents is a very nice step forward for that scene as well.”
“I like the Blade Runner stuff. As long as the coloration is consistent throughout, it should be fantastic.”
“I'm stunned by what I'm seeing in those pictures. Well done.”
“I really like the new look for the bar. It's much more crowded.”

I’m really glad you all like my new idea of how the nightclub should be. Maybe I’ll call that the “Death Sticks Bar”. I particularly like how right before we cut away, the bartender on the right points towards the two Jedi, just like the bartender in Ep. IV. The clothing is a bit outlandish in the Blade Runner shots as well, so they fit in very nicely. Several nice close-ups I’m using, too. But anyway, to match editing-wise, I’m going to be doing a lot of cropping from full-screen for the original shots. Let’s hope I get the anamorphic calculation right this time! The thing I didn’t tell you, though, is that for this to work, I’ll have to ask some kind person that downloaded the 15 gig HD broadcast of Blade Runner to supply the shots I need. I haven’t had a whole lot of luck with some my previous requests (look at the “Original Logos” thread in the requests forum, for example), but with any luck, it’ll work out and I’ll have the DVD quality shots that I need for this. A couple other simple establishing shots I’m looking for are a city sunset (for Coruscant) and a shot showing a moon in one corner of the screen, and perhaps a smokestack on the other side, again for Coruscant. I have a very specific image of this shot that I want (that I’ve never seen). Has anyone seen any shots in any films that look similar to what I described?

“So if the Blade Runner idea works, could we have a Harrison Ford cameo? This would take care of many of the criticisms that the prequels have no Han Solo.”

Ha ha- look closer at the screenshot I posted. Harrison Ford is actually in that shot (which will be more clear in motion).

--------------------------------
InfoDroid- that’s a very interesting idea of yours. Took me off-guard a bit! However, this is a really radical change for this late in the game, and I kind of think it’s more interesting (for me) to see how they fell in love in the first place. So I don’t think I’ll do that…but, I hope someone else doing an edit might be able to figure out the thorny issues with this and give it a try! Sorry I can’t do it at this stage; it would indeed turn the structure on its ear. But if there are significant advantages to this I’m too dense to pick up on, please tell me- I just see more problems than good with that particular solution.

“And Trooperman, PLEASE consider excising the Banking Clan guy from Dooku's conference room! Seriously, he looks like the stretched-out corpse of Peter Cushing. It needs to go.”

“People complain about the Tech Union dude, I actually liked him. But that Banking Clan guy...*cringe*.”


My view- I hate every single one of them No close-ups of those CG guys survive in my cut. It’s a personal irritation thing, a general style/design thing, and also, as Rebel Scumb pointed out, everyone has come to Geonosis. Of course they’ve all already decided to sign the treaty. If they had actually used men for this scene and not CGI, I might have felt differently. So this scene is basically Obi-Wan spying on Dooku as he briefs the Separatists about what’s going to happen. Since the whole Padme interrogation scene will not be in my cut, but it contains good dialogue, I’m using some of that in this scene as well, like Rebel Scumb. Lines like “The Republic cannot be fixed- it is time to start over,” make sense and give some substance to the scene.

“How would you feel about using a different musical cue for Shmi's death scene?”

Very strongly. It won’t be the Burning Homestead, but it’ll be something good.

OK. Regarding the duel with Dooku (and yes, force lightning is cut- Palpatine is the only user of this now):

You all have brought up some very interesting and difficult questions and ideas (MTH, CC, twister, etc.). While I wish I could comment on the merits and disadvantages of each scenario, I don’t have time, so I’ll just outline what I’d like to do with this at this point, after having read all of the posts…

As shy and reserved as the new Anakin is in this film, I don’t believe that his standing around and watching his “inferior” master fight the duel and potentially get killed is the answer. When it comes to a fight, I don’t think that Anakin would hold back whatsoever. However, it’s also true that no matter how you look at it, Anakin does NOT have a good enough reason to want to rush a Sith lord. Unless….

As MTHaslett suggested, Anakin is upset because Dooku is somehow responsible for Padme’s “death”. And I actually love the line “You’re going to pay for killing the woman I love.” It’s delightful old-fashioned and classic sounding (although perhaps a bit cliché- I don’t care). And most of all, it provides a motivation for Anakin’s rush. Now, Anakin can run in, Dooku makes a hand motion, close-up of Obi-Wan as we hear Anakin yell and then hear a loud “thump”. We cut to Anakin lying on ground. And then I can still use the very exciting version of the duel that I already cut.

But now the question is…why is Anakin blaming Dooku for killing Padme? I thought he was blaming Obi-Wan for that. Well, I have a really crazy idea of my own for the gunship scene that I’d like to leave you with.

Nobody on the gunship knows where Dooku is. “Dooku! He’s behind us!” shouts Anakin suddenly. We cut to Dooku as he makes a hand motion to his wingmen. In the original cut, this meant that his wingmen were to accelerate. Instead, they each open fire immediately. They aren't doing a good job. So Dooku comes up behind them and HE shoots at the ship personally. It's a big deal music-wise. The gunship rocks, Padme falls out (for an actually good reason, this time), and Anakin knows EXACTLY who did it. He also knows that Padme’s lying on the ground and it would be quite easy for Dooku to blast her to pieces. Dooku disappears from sight for a while as Obi-Wan and Anakin argue.

THIS might be a motivation to run at Dooku and also a reason to be arguing with Obi-Wan about turning around to save Padme. She’s actually in danger and Dooku did something that makes Anakin despise him with good reason- he is personally responsible for Padme's "death" and Anakin knows it. This makes the shot of Padme getting up an actual revelation- Dooku shot at the ship for some reason, but when Padme fell out of the ship, he let her live, for some reason we don’t know. Perhaps he had instructions from a Sith lord we all know and love…

Talk to you soon

EDIT: Actually, this doesn’t work because Dooku’s speeder doesn’t have a laser cannon. Still, more can be made of the whole thing. Maybe there’s audio somewhere of Christopher Lee saying “Kill them,” which could be turned into a radio transmission to his wingmen.

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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I just thought of a pretty glaring problem with Anakin's entrance as he says, “You’re going to pay for killing the woman I love.” He wouldn't refer to Padme this way right in front of Obi-Wan. No way- otherwise, Obi-Wan's an idiot for not knowing they’re in love. But…Anakin can say this as he is dueling Dooku, after Kenobi has been struck down. I can picture this…they’re fighting, the lightsaber gets chopped in half, the lights go out, and Anakin says, “You’re going to pay for killing the woman I love.” Dooku: “Indeed.” And their blades clash (Obi-Wan's on the other side of the room, wounded; he may have heard it, he may not have." Even though the rush at Dooku might have seemed pointless at first, it would become clear that Anakin is furious with Dooku.

Understand that the actual editing and implication of the force push isn't a problem at all- I can pull that off. The only problem was the motivation, which we're taking care of now while adding so much more weight and drama to the whole Dooku/Anakin relationship.

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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At last, Trooperman brings order to chaos!

Real life does take precedence, my friend. Some of us just have schedules that better allow for constant message board usage.

It's good to know everything's been sorted out for the end confrontation. This new exchange between Anakin and Dooku does provide him with the motivation to charge in at him, and solves the editing issues that would go along with that, but are we the audience to assume Padme is dead? That's kind of a cheesy scenario if I may say so myself. I didn't see what the fuss what about in the original movie either: she falls to the ground and lies unconscious in the desert. Surely one of the other gunships will pick her up, which is exactly what happens. All that aside, in your edit you have Dooku's droids shooting at her, which would presumably kill her. Anakin believes so and takes it out on Dooku, only to be defeated and when it's all said and done it's revealed she was alright all along. I have no problem with the editing of the sequence, ending the Geonosis scenes with all three main characters fallen in battle. It sets the tone for the coming war. What I do have a problem with is Anakin believing Dooku killed Padme. I do like added dialogue in the duel, as you said it gives it more an OT feel. Since you're dubbing Anakin, I'd encourage you to put in more dialogue anywhere it may fit, playing it off against any cut Dooku lines you won't be using in your version of the movie.
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Good thoughts, Trooperman --

One idea that occured to me, and one which you might be able to make work since you can "darken" shots, is to use the way these fights are all shot in close-up to give the illusion that Obi Wan and Anakin are fighting Dukoo together.

We'd never get a good master of it after they circle him together -- but you would build to a beat where Dukoo force-shoves Anakin into the wall, then to a beat where he cuts Obi-Wan -- goes in for the kill -- and gets stopped by Anakin. Then the remaining Anakin shots allow you to finish the duel in short-order.

You'd probably have to darken the whole duel so the first shots match the final shots because most of the Anakin/Dukoo duel is in half-light.

But having them both fight Dukoo together is the most natural thing for these Jedi to do character-wise -- at least in this edit. Trying to justify a rushing-in Anakin is another way to go, but somehow a second choice to me. I think I'm afraid of how dumb it makes him look. That could be improved if Obi Wan does not ask him to not rush in-- if somehow it were Obi-Wan's idea for Anakin to rush in... I don't know.

Both fighting at once is best, isn't it? If the footage were little better, it would be a no-brainer. But with creative use of what's there, I think the impression could be achieved -- as long as the underlying idea is that Dukoo is WAY TOO GOOD for them and WAY TO RELENTLESS (no chatting, no pausing). I think there has to be a unique flavor to each duel -- and this one feels the most generic of any in the PT. "Relentlessness" is my suggestion for making it unique.

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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
Both fighting at once is best, isn't it? If the footage were little better, it would be a no-brainer. But with creative use of what's there, I think the impression could be achieved -- as long as the underlying idea is that Dukoo is WAY TOO GOOD for them and WAY TO RELENTLESS (no chatting, no pausing). I think there has to be a unique flavor to each duel -- and this one feels the most generic of any in the PT. "Relentlessness" is my suggestion for making it unique.

I just start coming around to TM's way of thinking and look what happens. MTH has got me again here. EXCELLENT point about it being such a generic duel, that's the best way to describe it. It doesn't help that the location is such a boring one, as there are no obstacles or environment varieties to mix things up. The relentlessness would indeed make things unique, and give Dooku more much-needed character. I am still very firmly on the fence on this one. One thing I wouldn't want for sure though is the two fighting him together. Save that for RotS, and save the line that goes along with it as well.
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Commander Courage: One thing I wouldn't want for sure though is the two fighting him together. Save that for RotS, and save the line that goes along with it as well.

***

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Well -- the rushing in has to be made pallatable and character building -- it has to be NECESSARY TO THE STORY, right?

This is a sticky one.

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Excellent points, both of you. I agree that I do not want Obi-Wan and Anakin fighting together in this one. One other problem with that would be...no shots whatsoever of them fighting together. It would just be close-up after close-up after close-up (it's not convincing that the film was always this way, which is the goal with all of this), and things wouldn't work spacially as well. When I edited the Obi-Wan/Dooku duel, I was very conscious about cutting it so that it made sense in the space that they were in. For instance, Dooku doesn't suddenly appear on the other side of the room at the cut. Believe it or not, the official edit made some cuts that were completely wrong like that, which have all been fixed.

So my solution was to work on it from the other end, i.e. Dooku and his ships shooting down the gunship. My reasoning is that by building up some personal hate towards Dooku (and maybe a line to Obi-Wan on the gunship, something along the lines of "Dooku will kill her! I know he will."), then Anakin's run will be justified. I’ve always intensely disliked the Padme falling out of the gunship and getting up again anyway. In fact, I wanted to just cut Padme from the gunship entirely until I was talked out of it. So this change would make me a lot happier with this scene as well, as I’ve always disliked it.

And regarding Dooku’s relentlessness- I certainly don’t want Dooku fooling around in my cut, but at the same time…Darth Maul didn’t talk. Mace didn’t talk. A lot of fights didn’t have any talking in the PT. I kind of hate to take it out of this one as well. I actually like the lines “Brave of you, boy. But I thought you would have learned your lesson,” and “Yoda always held you in such high esteem.” By the way, I think the reason they included that line was so that Obi-Wan’s ghost on Hoth made more sense. It implies that Obi-Wan had trained with Yoda before Qui-Gon. And with the new music and effects, I don’t think there’ll be an excitement deficiency in this one. (Believe me, though- Dooku isn’t fooling around. He hits Obi-Wan, hits him again, and he instantly raises his saber for the kill. He wants to kill Obi-Wan.

And regarding Dooku’s relentlessness- I certainly don’t want Dooku fooling around in my cut, but at the same time…Darth Maul didn’t talk. Mace didn’t talk. A lot of fights didn’t have any talking in the PT. I kind of hate to take it out of this one as well. I actually like the lines “Brave of you, boy. But I thought you would have learned your lesson,” and “Yoda always held you in such high esteem.” By the way, I think the reason they included that line was so that Obi-Wan’s ghost on Hoth made more sense. It implies that Obi-Wan had trained with Yoda before Qui-Gon.

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Hey Mr. Trooperman,

Can I ask, why does it make any more logical sense that Anakin would suspect that Dooku would want, specifically, to kill Padme after her fall, than the possibility of him rushing Dooku in the duel (unless you have completely irradicated his earlier impetuousness)? Have you considered just before the duel begins, cutting to Padme’s lifeless body on the sand (with a little sombre music) and then cutting back to Anakin (perhaps with a close-up on his face so everyone knows what he is thinking) who then rushes in? Would that not give him the excuse to play the hero without having to add any ‘heartfelt’ dialogue?

Good luck and happy Editing!
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Trooperman--

I was just signing on this morning to reveal my next solution -- and you're already there. The best motive for Anakin is definitely revenge for Padme.

I agree with the way you put it when you say the dialogue can work in this duel. I think the original edit has a combined effect of having too much stand-in work, too little sense of location, AND too many pauses in the fight so that the lines (which are generally good) seem ripe to be removed-- but if the fight is more brutal and the lines can stay? Perfect.

The thing that got me to come around was looking at the whole movie again. We have solutions to reduce or eliminate all Anakin's impetuousness. Now, if I'm accurate in remembering your changes, Anakin is admirable for staying on his Jedi duties as long as he does before going to his mom -- and then again for rescuing Obi Wan. Along the way he wins Padme's heart and, damn it, he isn't going to lose her too! Bam! He runs in at Dukoo-- now only the second reveal of the vengeful emotion that will later destroy him. Now it's significant and not repetitive; the key is to tie it to Padme and not "all the Jedi you killed today."

I realize we can't have a line like "You're going to pay for killing the woman I love." We can come up with a similar line that works, though. It has to clearly refer to Padme from the audience point of view without revealing anything to Obi Wan.

ANAKIN: "You're going to pay for killing her, Dukoo. This I promise."

---

One more change that is small, but related is that when Padme falls out of the ship they describe her fall with two shots in the sand: FIRST, she tumbles down the sand dune toward camera and rolls out of frame, screen left. SECOND, she rolls to a stop, on her back facing camera in close-up. I suggest cutting the second shot. It feels fake because the framing is too perfect and she doesn't look like she just fell out of an airplane. If you let her roll out of frame and don't tell us where she stops before cutting back to Anakin's reaction, I think it will seem more convincing that she may be hurt/dead.

---

Lastly, the losing Padme beat requires an "I thought I lost you" beat. But I don't want the one in the hanger when she runs up and hugs him -- and I'm glad you don't either.

I think this gives us an idea what the one line over the beginning of the wedding should be -- something to cover this beat and set up the next movie a little. Something like this:

ANAKIN (V.O.): I'm not afraid to die... but I can never lose you again.

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"ANAKIN (V.O.): I'm not afraid to die... but I can never lose you again."

Wow, I can honestly say that would give me chills! And a real neat line to end the movie out on. Good suggestion.
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I really like where all of this is going. If I might suggest:

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One of the reasons I liked ROTS was a general lack of 'monologue-ing'. If you've seen The Incredibles, you know what I am talking about. I am excited to see all of the extra dialogue cut out of the fights. Especially the Yoda/Dooku lines.

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I'm a little sad to see the shot of Padme shooting at Dooku's ship go as it was a nice parallel to Empire, but sacrifices must be made.

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Regarding Watto: I think Anakin should have been a bit more agressive in finding Shmi. I know you are looking at that by having Anakin threaten Watto. My approach would be a little different from what you guys suggest. I'd cut all the chit chat and the bit about Anakin fixing the power droid. It was filmed to convince Watto that it was really Anakin. Who cares. Who would be asking about Shmi anyway? So instead of Anakin threatening to cut Watto's wings off, he uses a Jedi mind trick on Watto and it works. I know that Watto says that mind tricks don't work on Toydarians. This is why I think it would be cool to see here. We all remember the scene from TPM. All of a sudden Anakin does it on Watto! We realise this guy is so strong in the Force that he can influence minds that usually aren't affected by the Jedi mind trick. And it would make a nice payoff for having the Qui-gon/Watto scene in TPM in the first place.

---------------------------

And I like the line ANAKIN (V.O.): "I'm not afraid to die... but I can never lose you again.", but does the line make sense for a wedding? Does being married equate to dying?
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Sluggo-- And I like the line ANAKIN (V.O.): "I'm not afraid to die... but I can never lose you again.", but does the line make sense for a wedding? Does being married equate to dying?

***

Well, lemme tell you-- when you get 8 years of marriage under your belt like I got; you won't be askin' that no more! ;-)

You're not catching it-- and who can blame you out of context -- but the line is supposed to harken back to the scene where Padme confesses her love to Anakin -- "I'm not afraid to die..." she says and then kisses him.

Here, he echoes it-- in effect saying "I take you to be my soul mate by saying the same things you say" -- but then he puts an Episode III twist on it.

It's just an idea. If we can get the right line at this point, it really brings the movie home in a way that it won't with just the wedding. I mean, the wedding's pretty and all -- but it's so generic that it could have been cut completely if we just cut to Artoo and Threepio talking in a corridor somewhere -- "What's that Artoo? A wedding? Between Padme and Master Anni? What's wrong with you, you know Jedi are forbidden to marry!" There is much left to say at the end of this movie and it's all kind of left in a mess and swept under the carpet by this pretty, but unspectacular wedding. I think one good line from Anakin would crystalize the ending-- make it feel like we've come to the end of this episode.

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Trooperman:

I have more ideas coming-- ways to juice up the droids, tone up the romance, and beef up a few sequences with sound effects-- but there's one idea that I just stole from another thread that you have to hear.

This is from Rebel Scum's new ideas on recutting Ep. I -- If you like it, it will effect how you want to cut Sidious into Episode II.

Episode I suffers from a real lack of suspense -- we know everything the bad guys are doing before they do it and we know more about everything than Qui Gon and Obi Wan. Because Darth Sidious telegraphs all his plans, there's never an opportunity for us to be surprised by the bad guys-- but what if...

What if you cut out every single reference to Sidious?

Consider -- this simplifies the apparent story and adds a layer of subtext. The threat posed by the Trade Federation goes up a notch because suddenly they aren't so frickin incompetent and servile-- they're the top of the food chain as far as we know. Then Nute Gunray becomes a memorable and cool character. His henchmen is Darth Maul -- quite like Tarkin and Vader in ANH. And just like ANH, we aren't told that this "Darth" character is the servent of Sidious. It's implied and played by the rules-- but never stated.

This empowers both Gunray and Maul -- and saves the big Sidious reveal for Episode II!

Then the final pan to Palpatine gets more juice. And the reveal at the end of Episode II gets real power. Finally, a fan might say, the EMPEROR comes on the scene.

You lose some good moments (well, the only one I really like is when Sidious says "Wipe them out, OHLL of them!") -- but you get a hell of a lot of juice and drama in the exchange.

And it gives Episode II one more way to be cool -- and Episode II could use it.

Anyway-- I hope you'll give it a thought. I personally think that would improve Episode I a great deal-- but if you wanted to do it, then you'd want to make Sidious' first appearance in Episode II somehow very special.

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Yes, added Anakin dialogue is the answer to everything! Hearing his reasoning on Dooku killing Padme is good, as is the final line (or some variation of it) at the wedding.

As far as cutting Sidious from TPM, I think it's a bold move on Rebel Scumb's part to do something different, but I'd be against Trooperman doing so in his Episode 1. He's rather essential to the plot, especially if you want to bring out the story of Palpatine's rise to power (one of the best of the PT). Don't forget how much of an impact dubbing and subtitles can do in regards to the Trade Federation, which TM will be doing and RS will not. That said I do look forwaed to how RS handles it in his edit.
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Commander Courage: As far as cutting Sidious from TPM, I think it's a bold move on Rebel Scumb's part to do something different, but I'd be against Trooperman doing so in his Episode 1. He's rather essential to the plot, especially if you want to bring out the story of Palpatine's rise to power (one of the best of the PT). Don't forget how much of an impact dubbing and subtitles can do in regards to the Trade Federation, which TM will be doing and RS will not. That said I do look forwaed to how RS handles it in his edit.

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I knew there would be resistence! Resistence is futile! These are not the droids you're looking for...

I'm not saying take him out of the PT-- just don't see him in Episode I. What about his presence is essential to the plot? Simply that he exists and is pulling the strings behind the blockade-- he doesn't have to be seen doing it to get that across. In my new and Rebel-Scum enlightened point of view, SEEING Sidious makes all his actions feel clumsy.

The greatest effect of making Sidious micro-manage the Federation blockade is to belittle him since his plans are completely defeated by a little girl and a Jamaican alien.

But take him out and leave his mysterious presence a hint-- the power behind the thrown so to speak-- and the Trade Federation become worthy opponents who are outdone by our heroes. But our heroes don't realize what they're really up against-- and niether does the audience, theoretically, although it's all there if you're paying attention.

I just think this is a much more sophisticated approach to telling the same story -- a more OT approach.

I liked seeing Sidious for the first screening, but I have to admit something: I didn't know Palpatine and Sidious were the same guy. That was a surprise spoiled for me by someone in the audience after the movie ended. Seeing the movie again, knowing that Palpatine and Sidious were the same guy-- some things didn't add up. Like why was he so clueless about what Amidala was doing when he is actually her friend and confidant?

Anyway-- I'm convinced this is the way to go-- for the moment. When I get my editing suite (and my mansion and my yacht) I'm going to edit it this way, darn it. >;-P

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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
When I get my editing suite (and my mansion and my yacht) I'm going to edit it this way, darn it. >;-P

Hahaha, that's my situation as well.

Shamless personal ad: If anyone wants to respond to my Maul=Grievous plans in Rebel Scumb's "My Phantom Edit" thread, please do as so far I've recieved very little feedback.
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Commander:
I love the idea of GG = DM.

I think your solution covers the bases well -- essentially, change Maul's name to Grievous in Episode I and exploit all the missed opportunities. I never realized how MANY missed opportunities there are. It is absolutely a natural.

The wheezing schtick didn't bother me that much from GG -- but it was off for most people. The intention was to mirror Vader's breathing, I think. With this DM=GG formula, the wheezing could be made more integral to the story/character. The idea that Maul/GG is a prototype for Vader-- without all the bugs worked out-- is implied and could be interesting. Maybe something to keep in mind if the faltering/wheezing is too hard to eliminate completely.

Anyway, it's a done deal for my alleged future edit. Right along with NO SIDIOUS. Good things!

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*reads about the anakin rushing in thing*

Hm, well, the line could be "Your going to pay for threatening the queen.". Since, I see that the trial scene is going to be in it fits on two aspects. One he was in the trial and, could have stopped the sentancing. Two he sent two ... things to shoot at thier ship thus causing her to fall overboard. Three, it isn't out of character and, he isn't revealing anything to Obi-wan. Mabye replacing the queen with Padme would make it more personal... "Your going to pay for threatening Padme!"


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About an earlier post as to why Dooku would want to kill Padme, I think it was revealed in an early draft of ep III that Dooku ordered the tusken raiders to kidnap and torture Anakin's mother. I think it's interesting to consider that possibility and how that would have added to Dooku's character.

Take back the trilogy. Execute Order '77

http://www.youtube.com/user/Knightmessenger

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Making Dukoo responsible for Anakin's mother's death?

Trying it on for size does put light onto the whole Anakin/Dukoo problem. On the one hand, Anakin would really have a great reason to attack him, wouldn't he?

But then, imagining how it plays out, I realize one of my problems with having Anakin rush Dukoo is how pathetic Anakin's attack turns out to be. He runs in, looking goofy, disobeying a direct order, against an obviously powerful opponent-- and gets swatted aside like a fly.

That may be what GL wanted, but it sure is unsatisfying.

Regardless of what motivates Anakin's attack-- and without getting into how to do this-- would anyone else feel better if Anakin had managed to achieve the slightest thing before being defeated? I mean, if he had only made Dukoo draw his light-saber and hold Anakin off before slapping him aside. If Anakin got that far, I could respect him a little more-- sense his raw, if untrained power.

I don't claim this is the biggest problem. I think there's a snarl of problems surrounding Anakin's choice. This is one of them, I think.

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Regardless of what motivates Anakin's attack-- and without getting into how to do this-- would anyone else feel better if Anakin had managed to achieve the slightest thing before being defeated? I mean, if he had only made Dukoo draw his light-saber and hold Anakin off before slapping him aside. If Anakin got that far, I could respect him a little more-- sense his raw, if untrained power.


I’m afraid I still I like the fact that he gets whumped straight away. Despite Anakin’s power and potential, the scene shows the essential need for a lack of attachment in a Jedi’s life and, ultimately, the failings that the Darkside will bring. He is so influenced by his emotions (so quick to anger) that this acts as a distraction from his training and Dooku uses this fact and, in effect, just whips the football away and sends the unfocused Jedi flying. Thereby giving more credence to Obi and his philosophy (and also to the fact that he, ultimately, failed in training Anakin).
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Originally posted by: Arklaine


I’m afraid I still I like the fact that he gets whumped straight away. Despite Anakin’s power and potential, the scene shows the essential need for a lack of attachment in a Jedi’s life and, ultimately, the failings that the Darkside will bring. He is so influenced by his emotions (so quick to anger) that this acts as a distraction from his training and Dooku uses this fact and, in effect, just whips the football away and sends the unfocused Jedi flying. Thereby giving more credence to Obi and his philosophy (and also to the fact that he, ultimately, failed in training Anakin).


Good points. But Anakin's raw power is totally ignored. He couldn't do worse if this were the first time he'd ever held a lightsaber. That's my problem.

I love everything you say and agree with the meaning of Dukoo's victory-- but that meaning wouldn't change if Anakin were able to bull through for at least a moment-- in fact the meaning would be enhanced. If an emotional attack from an untrained average Jedi comes-- whack! That's no threat to Dukoo. But what if it were an emotional attack from an untrained "chosen one?" An apprentice who will be the most powerful of all Jedi? Well if it's just the same answer-- whack! Well, that's just dull. But if there's a beat of "oh my god, Anakin's raw power may allow this to be a fight..." before Dukoo whips the football away, then the point is made even clearer: it doesn't matter how powerful you are-- if you do not detach, you will lose.

Remember that in this edit, Anakin does almost nothing out of emotion-- just two things: goes to save his mom and kills the sandpeople. Everything else is marked by his restraint now.

So how he approaches this fight is kind of important-- it's not just "more of the same" as in the original cut. This moment is a dramatic beat-- it tells us what kind of man he's becoming and it comes on the heels of another important beat when he decides to leave Padme behind and "do the right thing."

By making that choice of restraint a few minutes earlier and then showing up here and going berzerk-- Anakin's character is suddenly waffling and adrift. There needs to be a straight line that explains why he rushes in here when he was able to rein himself in and leave Padme only a short time earlier.

It might help if Dukoo taunts Anakin into coming. If Dukoo said "I sense that she suffered before she died. I hope that pains you, young Jedi." Then I can see Anakin going off. But to do it in response to Obi Wan's direct order is just whacky.

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I don't know if anybody has mentioned this before, so I thought I would throw it out. Have we thought about using any dialouge of Christopher Lee from the LOTR trilogy? He says plenty of raspy, evil things in those movies and surely there is enough to add extra dialouge to count dooku, maybe even enough to threaten anakin before the fight. Are there any super LOTR fans in here that could think of some of his dialouge that would work for star wars? Just a thought.

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Lord of the Rings would a great source for more Dooku dialogue as Christopher Lee plays pretty much the same character. Nice suggestion. LotR is not my forte though, so someone else will have to get to work on that right away.

As for the Anakin/Dooku exchange, I still believe inferring Padme’s death is not necessary. It’s been revealed to the Jedi Dooku was behind the assassination attempts all along, and that should be enough motive for Anakin to have a vendetta against him. It’d be great to incorporate something along the lines of:
Anakin: You’re the one who’s been trying to kill Padme all along. That’s the last mistake you’ll ever make, Dooku!
Dooku: Indeed.
Anakin’s line mirroring Luke’s to Jabba in RotJ, and it’s best to keep it simple for Dooku until we can find some suitable Lee dialogue.