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Idea: MY phantom edit — Page 2

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Originally posted by: booah
Originally posted by: Rebel Scumb
I'm still eager to do my Katie Holmesless version of BATMAN BEGINS

I'm really looking forward to any work on Begins-- it's begging to be Holmeless (or Holmesless). I also think the training sequence was way too long, but maybe that's just me.


I like all the training stuff. But Katie Holmes just feels very extranious to the plot, her character should of been Harvey Dent. Then in Batman3 when he becomes Two face it would be really powerful to have Batman fighting his former childhood friend.

But also I just want to cut her out as a curiousity, to see if it can be done, I think it can without any plot disruption and that just makes me chuckle.

One thing that bothers me to no end are the Jedi rat tails, it would almost be worth it to me to eliminate them from every frame of TPM and AOTC...I don't know if this bothers the hell out of anyone else, but I could never stand the look.


I would be supportive of such an idea. Can we get rid of the word "padawan" while we're at it

I haven't watched TPM for awhile, but I wonder if there is a way to completely eliminate the Gungan battle scenes, removing any reference to it and doing it without without adding subtitles to Jar Jar, since I don't like any of the altered versions of Jar Jar's voice I've heard so far...there are already 3 other action sequences going on at the end of TPM, giving the axe to the Gungan battle would be my preference.


I actually like a lot of elements of the battle, I prefer it over the space battle which I find highly dissappointing.
And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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I'd go the route of reducing Episode I to a 10-minute Lord of the Rings-style prologue... If I were you.

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that feels very unstarwarsy though.

another thought was just to re-edit the OT with footage of the prequels inserted as flashbacks during Ben and Yoda and Vader's musings about the past, there would be NO pt just fleshed out flashbacks in the OT
And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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Yes, yes and yes. Unfortunately, conceptual issues are harder to deal with than editorial. The idea of cutting Sidious altogether is a good - that way his appearances in the PT will mirror those in the OT (i.e. none/a bit/a lot). However, preserving the surprise is a moot point, since everyone already knows. Even people who don't know who Ian McDiarmid is and missed that the OT Emperor's name is Palpatine can recognize the TPM Palpatine as the OT Emperor. Nevertheless, go ahead, it's a good idea and I'm sure a lot of fans would love to see it.


good points

And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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Re: Commander Courage's Maul/GG idea

For the purpose of this cut, Episode I, just inserting an introduction of Maul as Grievous and maintaining the name change will do for a set up.

The "Rule" of 2 is obviously not a rule as Vader and the Emperor plot to get Luke in the OT-- as you point out, so any reference to a "rule of 2" is about as meaningful as a reference to midiclorians. It's outdated by the time of the OT and kind of confusing-- so why not cut it?

The chronology of GG/Maul, however, doesn't really have to violate this. Maul/GG is "killed" by Obi Wan in Episode I. He doesn't have a role in Episode II, but that's fine because the story would be that Episode II is when Palpatine is developing the techniques that save Maul/GG and turn him into the Grievous robot of Episode III. This happens, one presumes, in the same laboratory where Vader is rebuilt. It happens off screen since it has no bearing on the events of Episode II.

The reveal of Grievous' identity to Obi Wan during their Episode III duel is a wonderful opportunity-- but this is the one sticky point about Commander Courage's plan: if Grievous robot and Darth Grievous of Episode I have the same name-- doesn't everyone know it? Maybe the Jedi won't, but the audience will and that's just as important. To work best, the moment Obi Wan learns Grievous is the same Sith who killed Qui Gon should be the moment the audience realizes the same thing.

How can this reveal be preserved for the audience?

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and why doesn't he use the force or use a red saber?

the rule of two does make sense. because Luke only would of been a sith if he had killed one of the existing ones.
And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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You mean when Vader and the Emperor were talking about bringing in young Skywalker, they both knew that he would have to kill one of them? That does not track. They are too mutually enthusiastic about it for the "rule of 2" to be in effect.

"Good idea, bring in Skywalker and he gets to kill you!"
"Oh no, no, no-- bring him in, but he gets to kill YOU."
"Me?"
"Yes."
"Why me?"
"Because it was my idea."
"I don't care who's idea it was-- it only seems fair that he kills you because I've been a Sith longer than you."
"Then it's my turn-- you die. I live and Skywalker takes my place."
"I don't like it."
"Why not?"
"I just don't. Look-- let's decide who he kills later. Maybe nothing will come of this and all this bickering will be pointless, okay?"
"Okay-- but I'm saying he kills you."
"Ah-ah-ah. Stop that."
"I'm just saying."
"Don't make me use lightning on you. And don't forget you killed Padme."
"NOOOOOOOO! I'd almost managed to put that out of my mind, you jerk!"
"Sorry."

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As for General Grievous/Darth Maul using the force or having a red light saber-- Commander Courage says to give Grievous red sabers-- but I don't think anyone mentioned him using the force. That's a good idea and probably easy to accomplish by using editing to make him push Obi Wan or "grab" a light saber or "throw" a piece of debris.

Good idea.

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You mean when Vader and the Emperor were talking about bringing in young Skywalker, they both knew that he would have to kill one of them? That does not track.


Well according to Lucas thats the idea. Each being evil knows the other cannot be trusted, but they also need each other in the mean time. Each is banking on the fact that they will come out on top, and trying use the other's desire to do the same to their advantage.

or at the very least you could say that Vader does not know, but I don't think thats nessesary. Vader assumes he can get luke to kill the emperor, the emperor assumes he can get Luke to kill vader
And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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Originally posted by: Rebel Scumb
You mean when Vader and the Emperor were talking about bringing in young Skywalker, they both knew that he would have to kill one of them? That does not track.


Well according to Lucas thats the idea. Each being evil knows the other cannot be trusted, but they also need each other in the mean time. Each is banking on the fact that they will come out on top, and trying use the other's desire to do the same to their advantage.

or at the very least you could say that Vader does not know, but I don't think thats nessesary. Vader assumes he can get luke to kill the emperor, the emperor assumes he can get Luke to kill vader


That still sounds more like a principle than a rule. If it were a rule which all Jedi know, then Vader and the Emperor know that "turning young Skywalker" is all bad news for someone in their relationship. If it were a rule and Vader wanted to turn Skywalker, he wouldn't announce it to the Emperor.

The way GL puts it sounds more like a general, pridictable way the Sith behave, but not a rule. A rule leaves no room for Vader to be fooled, no room for the Emperor and Vader to conspire to turn Skywalker while secretly plotting to use Skywalker against each other. But if it's more like a tendency -- an aspect of evil which comes from being power-mad, well that's just not a "Rule of 2" . That name, "Rule of 2" has to be shorthand for behavior that isn't really in stone. Otherwise, it just doesn't track.

With that being the case-- Palpatine can certainly bend this "rule" as the most powerful Sith ever. He can plan to revive a mechanical Darth Maul in the person of Grievous as an "extra" apprentice. He's planning on losing Dukoo anyway-- and Grievous as well. Yet he could use both their help in the meantime. He is, after all, orchestrating the destruction of all Jedi.

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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
With that being the case-- Palpatine can certainly bend this "rule" as the most powerful Sith ever. He can plan to revive a mechanical Darth Maul in the person of Grievous as an "extra" apprentice. He's planning on losing Dukoo anyway-- and Grievous as well. Yet he could use both their help in the meantime. He is, after all, orchestrating the destruction of all Jedi.

Exactly. Dooku and Maul/Grievous are both needed by Palpatine to accomplish his goals. And seriously, Grievous was a Sith in all but name in RotS anyway.

No one ever knew Maul's name, so they wouldn't know Grievous' name either until he became an important player in the Clone Wars. I think the question here is do we want to keep DM=GG a surprise of sorts or not. I can see what you mean by saving the reveal until the duel, but I think the connections would be lost if there is no reference to Grievous as the Sith from Episode 1 beforehand. If you reserve that until Obi-Wan finds out, it will seem a totally random and out of place twist. The character of Grievous should be established and explained in a way or things will be very confusing.

Also if your plan is to cut the Sidious scenes in TPM, how would Grievous' name be established? I think the concept of removing Sidious is a creative one, and have come to see the value of it. We don't need to see his every order to the Trade Federation, just as we didn't need to see his every command to Vader in the OT. However, key conversations should be left in, such as the introduction of his apprentice, and orders on the final battle of Naboo. You could take all his key lines and condense them into 2 conversations, especially if the Nemoidians are subtitled. I'd like the balcony scene to be included as well, but that may or may not be essential.
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The idea of making Darth Maul & General Grievous into one character basically stems from neither of them being a good enough villain on their own. So the obvious alternative is to cut them both.
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Originally posted by: THX
The idea of making Darth Maul & General Grievous into one character basically stems from neither of them being a good enough villain on their own. So the obvious alternative is to cut them both.

Your point does have some validity, Grievous being more guilty of this. And I'll just assume you're being sarcastic there at the end.
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Actually no, I'm in agreement with Farsight, Wesyeed and InfoDroid: the way forward (if any) is with drastic cuts.
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...So Qui Gon dies of a sudden fever?

I've never heard anyone say Darth Maul was a bad villain. If that's what you're saying, I say I disagree.

Since this is a thread about cutting out all the Sidious stuff, try doing that AND cutting Maul-- suddenly you have a movie about Anakin and Jar Jar-- Whee, that sounds like fun.

The suggestion of making Maul into General Grievous is not about saving lame characters-- it's about adding another level to two of the most memorable characters in the entire PT.

Now if this were about Making Boss Nass into Jabba the Hutt, you'd have a point.

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Commander Courage:
"Also if your plan is to cut the Sidious scenes in TPM, how would Grievous' name be established? "

***

Thinking this through, this is only a problem if you don't subtitle the Nemoidians. Rebel Scum is taking the hardest path. Maybe he won't be able to make Maul=Grievous.

But in an edit where the Nemoidians are subtitled, they can name their henchman "Maul" or "Grievous" or whatever.

They can also order the final battle and cover any other beat that's currently handled by Sidious-- and it will make the movie better every time.

Making the first prequel about defeating a weak villain really hurt "Phantom Menace." ANH is about blowing up the death star. TPM is about disarming a bunch of weak trade-obsessed aliens with Asian accents. I want to see a version where Nute Gunray is transformed from a weakling to a monster-- I want to hear him yearn to bite Amidala's head off and drink her blood. Take away Sidious and these guys already look like real monsters. They just need bad-ass dialogue to pull it off.

I know Rebel Scum likes the weak Nemoidians. I'm just speaking theoretically about the benefits/opportunities of cutting out Sidious.

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yep, and all are valid opinions. I'm not going to try and turn Maul into grievous, but that doesn't mean I think you guys shouldn't try. the more different our edits are from each other the better

most fun that way
And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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Originally posted by: Rebel Scumb
the more different our edits are from each other the better
most fun that way

Agreed. Things would get rather dull in the fan edit community if every edit was just a slight variation of another. Here's to radical changes on all fronts, and if things get too extreme for you, there's always the offical version!
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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
...So Qui Gon dies of a sudden fever?
No, Qui Gon is also cut.

The suggestion of making Maul into General Grievous is not about saving lame characters-- it's about adding another level to two of the most memorable characters in the entire PT. Now if this were about Making Boss Nass into Jabba the Hutt, you'd have a point.

I've never heard anyone say Jabba the Hutt was a bad villain. If that's what you're saying, I say I disagree.
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Originally posted by: THX
Originally posted by: MTHaslett
...So Qui Gon dies of a sudden fever?
No, Qui Gon is also cut.

I see.

The suggestion of making Maul into General Grievous is not about saving lame characters-- it's about adding another level to two of the most memorable characters in the entire PT. Now if this were about Making Boss Nass into Jabba the Hutt, you'd have a point.

I've never heard anyone say Jabba the Hutt was a bad villain. If that's what you're saying, I say I disagree.


Right. You want to cut Qui Gon, Darth Maul and Sidious, but leave in Jabba.

I don't like your ideas.

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I was referring to the OT (ROTJ) Jabba, not the pod-racing spectator Jabba, who should also be cut. I know - this sounds like a lot of characters cut, so what's left?
Originally posted by: InfoDroid
I'd go the route of reducing Episode I to a 10-minute Lord of the Rings-style prologue... If I were you.


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These are just suggestions, and are obviously not the way Rebel Scumb is going to go. I agree with him and Commander Courage that there's room for all sorts of different cuts, some more drastic, some less.
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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
But in an edit where the Nemoidians are subtitled, they can name their henchman "Maul" or "Grievous" or whatever. Making the first prequel about defeating a weak villain really hurt "Phantom Menace." ANH is about blowing up the death star. TPM is about disarming a bunch of weak trade-obsessed aliens with Asian accents. I want to see a version where Nute Gunray is transformed from a weakling to a monster-- I want to hear him yearn to bite Amidala's head off and drink her blood. Take away Sidious and these guys already look like real monsters. They just need bad-ass dialogue to pull it off.

These are good points. If Maul was seen as Gunray's henchman, with Sidious out of the picture, it would mirror the relationship between Tarkin, Vader and Palpatine in ANH.
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On a totally different aspect of TPM editing, will you be re-incorperating any of the small cuts that were featured during the end of the Deleted scenes documenatry?
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That's a good source that had totally slipped my mind. I wish the bit where Maul jumps up on the ramp and Qui-Gon cuts it off to escape was on there though..