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Was that really the first Death Star in ROTS?
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I'm pretty sure in the 'Sith' commentary Lucas states that it is the Death Star from 'Star Wars.' At least I am positive that he doesn't say that it is a prototype.
Maybe it didn't take 20 years to roll out. It could have been completed and then tested or put into hiding for a long time. They probably don't take too long to build because in 'Jedi' the opening crawl states that the Emperor had secretly begun construction of a new Death Star after the Rebels destroyed the first one. Death Star II was almost completed by the time of the Battle of Endor.
If anything, the Prequels proved that Palpatine was all about the cloak & dagger - he tends to bide his time until he is ready to strike, which is why I favour my theory that it was completed and then sent into hiding. They obviously saw the Rebellion as a threat so it would make sense to keep it out of public knowledge for a while.
Then, when the Emperor is ready to tighten his grip on the galaxy, he unveils the Death Star and instills fear, which, is the ultimate weapon of control.
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By the way, here's a site at the Star Wars wiki which goes into details on this:
http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Death_Star_Prototype
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VADER
Don't be too proud of this
technological terror you've
constructed. The ability to destroy
a planet is insignificant next to
the power of the Force.
By the sounds of it, Motti had it constructed, and he looked about 30-something years old in ANH by my estimation.
http://www.myspace.com/red_ajax
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Originally posted by: theredbaron
The retarded thing about ROTS is that I'm pretty sure Darth Vader had no part in building or overseeing the construction of the first Death Star. It seems implicit in the dialogue of ANH:
VADER
Don't be too proud of this
technological terror you've
constructed. The ability to destroy
a planet is insignificant next to
the power of the Force.
By the sounds of it, Motti had it constructed, and he looked about 30-something years old in ANH by my estimation.
The retarded thing about ROTS is that I'm pretty sure Darth Vader had no part in building or overseeing the construction of the first Death Star. It seems implicit in the dialogue of ANH:
VADER
Don't be too proud of this
technological terror you've
constructed. The ability to destroy
a planet is insignificant next to
the power of the Force.
By the sounds of it, Motti had it constructed, and he looked about 30-something years old in ANH by my estimation.
Which adds up to my theory that that particular scene happened some years after the events of ROTS, maybe 10 years before ANH (and that's why I asked for those planning on doing edits to have that scene being the last of the movie)
Here's why I belive that scene happened much later:
1- We can see imperial officers in full uniform. Now, I don't belive Palpatine had uniforms in boxes just waiting for his plans to succeed. Also, since we never see anyone on the prequels dressed up as an imperial officer up to that point, I think we may asume that those uniforms didn't exist by then.
2- Tarkin is by Palpatine's side, and he was not in the films until that point. It would take time before he could make to a Grand Moff. Those more familiar with the EU can elaborate on that.
3- And there's the whole debate on how fast it would take to build a Death Star. So we are led to belive it takes 20 years to build the first one, and 4 years to build a second one? Talk about learning from experience... Of course one could elaborate and say that the second Death Star was being constructed way before the events of ANH, but I don't belive it.
Now, a friend of mine, more familiar with the EU, said that the Empire built a prototype Death Star, which was merely an skeleton, pretty much like the one displayed - but I don't think ROTS would follow the EU that much; also, some people who are unaware of this would get confused.
So, my theory is: that scene happens some years later.
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Revenge of the Sith
Jedi Search
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I always wish that in ROTS they would have shown 2 death stars being built. So it would make it seem that maybe after 5-10 years, they decided on just finishing one to get in up and working, which would leave it plausable for them after the first was blown up to continue on an already built second one.
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I know EU is canon, but I haven't read any of them, so frankly, they're not my canon.
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Originally posted by: CO
As it was said earlier on of the other post, Lucas specifically states in the ROTS commentary with a chuckle, that he was aware it took the death star 20 years to build, but he said they had union problems and stuff like that.
I always wish that in ROTS they would have shown 2 death stars being built. So it would make it seem that maybe after 5-10 years, they decided on just finishing one to get in up and working, which would leave it plausable for them after the first was blown up to continue on an already built second one.
As it was said earlier on of the other post, Lucas specifically states in the ROTS commentary with a chuckle, that he was aware it took the death star 20 years to build, but he said they had union problems and stuff like that.
I always wish that in ROTS they would have shown 2 death stars being built. So it would make it seem that maybe after 5-10 years, they decided on just finishing one to get in up and working, which would leave it plausable for them after the first was blown up to continue on an already built second one.
Now, I just wacthed episode 3 with the comentaries on, and I don't belive I heard that, but maybe I got distracted for a while. I'll watch it again later.
Now, I don't belive they would build 2 Death Stars 3 or 4 years after each other, because what is the point? Had they destroyed the rebel base at the battle of Yavin, would there really be the need of a second Death Star? It would almost never be used, as it's main porpouse was to spread fear of such weapon, not actually go around blowing up planets.
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The one in ROTS is a perfect sphere, ANH is slightly oblate.
The Great Weapon's superlaser dish is smaller and closer to the equator that in ANH.
To chage that would require a rebuild of an ungodly scale.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
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Originally posted by: sybeman
Or maybe "supply issues and union troubles" could mean just that. With the brand new empire, there may have been suppliers who weren't all that enthused about the idea, and perhaps there were many union troubles. Call it "Galactic Empire Growing Pains". Just because it wasn't finished for 20 years doesn't mean it took 20 years to build. There could have been exhaustive strikes and the like, which Vader "took care of" during those 20 years. Who knows?
I know EU is canon, but I haven't read any of them, so frankly, they're not my canon.
Or maybe "supply issues and union troubles" could mean just that. With the brand new empire, there may have been suppliers who weren't all that enthused about the idea, and perhaps there were many union troubles. Call it "Galactic Empire Growing Pains". Just because it wasn't finished for 20 years doesn't mean it took 20 years to build. There could have been exhaustive strikes and the like, which Vader "took care of" during those 20 years. Who knows?
I know EU is canon, but I haven't read any of them, so frankly, they're not my canon.
I wouldn't worry about it, dude - the EU is NOT canon, and probably never will be. The only elements of EU that are canon are those used in the films.
Although, in my mind, the O-OT is the only thing that should be canon. It's the only way it won't contradict itself.
http://www.myspace.com/red_ajax
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Well, the EU is considered canon
As has been mentioned already--no, it's not.
And before you link me to Nathan Butler and LFL's multifaceted rules of canon, I know that if you CHOOSE TO, it can be as canon as you want, but there's the movies, then screenplays, then the radio dramas, then the novelizations (and comic adaptations) of the movies--and that's it. Everything else is EU. Non Canon.
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Are the entries in the Holocron sorted as cannonical & non-cannonical? Are there various degress of oficialness?
The database does indeed have a canon field. Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary "S" continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction or for things that have been cut.
I will not go into specifics as to what is considered "S" canon or what items that are seemingly "C" canon are actually "G" canon.
Okay, I know that the novels are C-level, and I assume that most of the newer comics are also C-level. Where on the continuity spectrum to the Video games come in?
"...continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. " By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television. As I've mentioned earlier, any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case. This has been our general approach to continuity since we began using the Holocron database to track it.
In a nutshell, anything created by the author would be C-level. Anything in the the novels created by George Lucas (whether it comes from unpublished early script versions, unpublished author interviews with George, or George's revisions to the novelization manuscript) would be G-level unless contradicted by the films.
It gets a little more complicated when something is seen on-screen but not named. So the "shuura fruit" mentioned in the AOTC novel would be G because you see it in the film, although the author came up with the name.
Is there anything post-Return of the Jedi that is G level?
Not in the database, no. If there is anything anywhere, only George knows.
Though I don't discuss specific continuity issues in this thread, I do want to the address the fact that in the Holocron, we track continuity by Holocron entry and not by source.
What that means is, a particular source would never be discounted in its entirety, only those elements of that source that are contradictory.
Hence, while there may be individual elements of say the Marvel Comics or the Holiday Special that are considered non-continuity, all the other parts can still be valid.
The EU is canon unless contradicted by a higher source.(8km Executor, it 'nearly bankrupting the Empire', Splinter of the Minds Eye) The database does indeed have a canon field. Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary "S" continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction or for things that have been cut.
I will not go into specifics as to what is considered "S" canon or what items that are seemingly "C" canon are actually "G" canon.
Okay, I know that the novels are C-level, and I assume that most of the newer comics are also C-level. Where on the continuity spectrum to the Video games come in?
"...continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. " By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television. As I've mentioned earlier, any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case. This has been our general approach to continuity since we began using the Holocron database to track it.
In a nutshell, anything created by the author would be C-level. Anything in the the novels created by George Lucas (whether it comes from unpublished early script versions, unpublished author interviews with George, or George's revisions to the novelization manuscript) would be G-level unless contradicted by the films.
It gets a little more complicated when something is seen on-screen but not named. So the "shuura fruit" mentioned in the AOTC novel would be G because you see it in the film, although the author came up with the name.
Is there anything post-Return of the Jedi that is G level?
Not in the database, no. If there is anything anywhere, only George knows.
Though I don't discuss specific continuity issues in this thread, I do want to the address the fact that in the Holocron, we track continuity by Holocron entry and not by source.
What that means is, a particular source would never be discounted in its entirety, only those elements of that source that are contradictory.
Hence, while there may be individual elements of say the Marvel Comics or the Holiday Special that are considered non-continuity, all the other parts can still be valid.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
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In the commentary track on 'Sith' which is about as canon as it gets, GEORGE FUCKING LUCAS SAYS THAT IT IS THE DEATH STAR FROM STAR WARS.
Can it get any more clear?
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Originally posted by: skyman8081
It is the incomplete prototype of the CIS "Great Weapon".
The one in ROTS is a perfect sphere, ANH is slightly oblate.
The Great Weapon's superlaser dish is smaller and closer to the equator that in ANH.
To chage that would require a rebuild of an ungodly scale. Inconsistencies between the OT and PT? Never!
Originally posted by: TheCassidy
I guess I'll do what others have been politely hinting at for all of you that don't seem to get it.
In the commentary track on 'Sith' which is about as canon as it gets, GEORGE FUCKING LUCAS SAYS THAT IT IS THE DEATH STAR FROM STAR WARS.
Can it get any more clear?
Exactly!! The prequels are shite. Forget them, ignore them, they will make you insane.It is the incomplete prototype of the CIS "Great Weapon".
The one in ROTS is a perfect sphere, ANH is slightly oblate.
The Great Weapon's superlaser dish is smaller and closer to the equator that in ANH.
To chage that would require a rebuild of an ungodly scale. Inconsistencies between the OT and PT? Never!
Originally posted by: TheCassidy
I guess I'll do what others have been politely hinting at for all of you that don't seem to get it.
In the commentary track on 'Sith' which is about as canon as it gets, GEORGE FUCKING LUCAS SAYS THAT IT IS THE DEATH STAR FROM STAR WARS.
Can it get any more clear?
War does not make one great.
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"Gospel, or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history — with many off-shoots, variations and tangents — like any other well-developed mythology."
Quit confusing canon and continuity, and quit getting all of your information from wikipedia.
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How much more clear would you like it?
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War does not make one great.
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Originally posted by: TheCassidy
And the quote above came from someone that works for Lucasfilm, not a self-proclaimed obsessed Star Wars fan like Nathan Butler.
How much more clear would you like it?
And the quote above came from someone that works for Lucasfilm, not a self-proclaimed obsessed Star Wars fan like Nathan Butler.
How much more clear would you like it?
Lucas himself acknowledged the EU's canonocity. That's about as clear as you can get. And BTW, what's all the hatred in this board everyone seems to have with EU? It expands on the story. Star Wars would be pretty boring at times without the EU.