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Watching in order 1-6 is screwing up the original SW for newcomers! — Page 5

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On the back of the VHS Widescreen copy of TPM:

..and Palpatine, well known as the evil emperor, is an ambitious senator in the Galactic Republic.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: theredbaron
*Maybe* if I didn't already know that the Emperor's surname was Palpatine after ROTJ, it might have tricked me. But then watching all the political goings-ons, there's no way you couldn't suspect at least one of the politicians to be him, lest he take the title by force.


But the Emperor is never given a name in the OT. He's just "The Emperor", not Palpatine. So, I guess one could be fooled the whole time, but it would be pretty difficult. I still haven't watched the six films in chronological order, mostly because I don't want to bother with 1 and 2, but I think I might this weekend just to see what revelations arise.
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well alot of people were convinced that palpatine was a clone of sidious hence why the jedi didnt detect him
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Originally posted by: sybeman
Originally posted by: theredbaron
*Maybe* if I didn't already know that the Emperor's surname was Palpatine after ROTJ, it might have tricked me. But then watching all the political goings-ons, there's no way you couldn't suspect at least one of the politicians to be him, lest he take the title by force.


But the Emperor is never given a name in the OT. He's just "The Emperor", not Palpatine. So, I guess one could be fooled the whole time, but it would be pretty difficult. I still haven't watched the six films in chronological order, mostly because I don't want to bother with 1 and 2, but I think I might this weekend just to see what revelations arise.


He's never given a name in the actual movie itself, but it's in the credits, or at least it was inserted at some point. Not to mention the label on the action figures.
MTFBWY. Always.

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I too always thought that it was just too obvious that Palpatine and Sidious were the same purpose. I knew that Senator Palpatine would become Emperor Palpatine from day (er, episode) one. I just did my best to resist the idea that he was Sidious. I always thought that maybe the two would cross paths at some point, and Sidious would help Palpatine take over or something. Or maybe I'm just making that up now. I can't remember. It's been too long.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Lucas was right in the PT to make the saber duels "faster, more intense." than the OT. Newbies need to understand this was by design and for a good reason.


By design? Yeah, it seems logical, but weren't there "rules" for saber fightin' in the OT that were just ignored to make the PT fight scenes "faster, more intense"? i.e. holding lightsabers with two hands?

As for special effects, some CGI work just looks bad. End of story. Not just ignorant, uninformed, budding filmmakers think so. Moviegoers and film lovers in general have a valid opinion, and not everyone is misguided when daring to point it out. Jar Jar Binks is not only an awful character, but piss-poorly done. Like many bad digital effects, it looks like something out of a Playstation game gone wrong, and like you could peel it right off the screen. It's totally unnatural, and that often rips me out of the movie, and makes me ponder, as someone said earlier, the number of pixels or whatever it took to make it. Not to mention, Liam Neeson seems like he's looking at something else when he should be looking into Jar Jar's "eyes." Not that there aren't bad effects in all eras of film. But personally, more organically done bad effects irk me less than bad digital ones. And once something is done poorly in digital, it sticks out like a sore Gungan. I don't see how one could *not* think that Lucas used CG as a crutch during the PT. Look at that ridiculously busy opening of ROTS, for cripes' sake. And every damn window has to have 800 ships flying by. I guess it's always rush hour in a galaxy far, far away, huh?

I love The Frighteners, and there are a ton of great effects and shots and work put into it-- models, digital, makeup, the whole shebang. But for example, the CG "grim reaper" oily blob crawling on the ground after it was shot is pretty bad. Every time I watch it, I think, UGH.

Sure, there are people who probably think they're "experts" while picking apart every sci-fi flick. But you don't always *have* to be an expert to spot some particularly bad efx shots.
We don't have enough road to get up to 88.
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To prove this point, a friend of mine who is most definitely just your average Joe when it comes to movies saw AOTC on it's UK television premiere last week and commented to me about how crappy it looked, and when speaking about a scene involving Yoda and Mace walking down a corridor he said 'couldn't they even build a real wall?' The fact that he, and not I or some other film/star wars boffin was saying this really hit it home. And this is coming from a guy who though AVP was 'cool'.

War does not make one great.

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Yeah, a lot of people talk as if CGI has reached a level above models, and I beg to differ also. The reason why models and the like look more realistic is because they are real objects in 3-dimensional space. They have the gritty texture of real-life objects because they are real-life objects. The textures used in CGI are simply not detailed nor random enough to *not* be noticeable, and I wonder how long it will be, if ever, that this isn't the case. Even the detailed ships of Episode III look like they operate within their own CGI vacuum because of this very fact. And don't get me started on the 'Nubian' spacecraft in Episode I...

Fake city. 'Used' space indeed.
MTFBWY. Always.

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Yeah, it seems logical, but weren't there "rules" for saber fightin' in the OT that were just ignored to make the PT fight scenes "faster, more intense"? i.e. holding lightsabers with two hands?

Dude, that rule was ignored in Empire Strikes Back. And then Return of the Jedi.

Yes, some CGI looks bad, but that wasn't anyone's argument in here, as evidenced by the fact you admit some practical work looks bad as well. SOME effects just look bad, be it a rough day for the compositers on that shot, or time running out on the day of shooting, whatever. These sorts of things are unavoidable on any movie. I just don't see that the amount of BAD CGI necessarily outnumbers BAD practical effects. I think people are holding CGI to a standard it's never reached ever--total transparency. So that the instant you RECOGNIZE CGI, it becomes "BAD" CGI, whether it's bad or not. That's SOME people, not necessarily anyone in here. But just because it exists doesn't make it bad No one in here (Save for that Adamwan kid) is saying the CG work is ALL good, either. But it's good enough that for most of the time--it's indistinguishable from a model shot, or a matte painting, or a miniature. Not ALL the time--but that's a standard that model work itself never lived up to. And neither did the OT.

Like many bad digital effects, it looks like something out of a Playstation game gone wrong,


I'd love to play that playstation game if it existed. Not picking on you, just the way overheated and unrealistic cliche you just threw out. Jar Jar doesn't look like any video game on the market, man. Not even close. if a video game existed that had THAT level of detail in the graphics during gameplay--people would probably just stop going to movies. Comparing the output of WETA and ILM to a PLAYSTATION game is way overstating your case. At the least say Playstation 3 or something, you'd still be unrealistically far off as far as the comparison goes, but at least it'd be somewhere within the realm of believability. Just a pet peeve of mine, sorry

They have the gritty texture of real-life objects because they are real-life objects


I also like when people bring this up, models always have "Gritty Texture." Again, picking on the cliche, not the person, but sometimes models and miniatures don't have gritty texture. Sometimes they're just as shiny and smooth as, say, the Nubian starship. It depends on what the model or miniature is supposed to look like. and the "Used Space" idea wasn't necessarily supposed to be in Phantom Menace, either, so saying it didn't follow that ideal isn't much of a smack at the movie (and there's plenty of smacks to throw at it.) And typically, the textures on CG models and digital matte paintings are just as random and detailed as a real building or street or whatever--because the textures are taken directly from photographs of those things themselves. It's not like they're writing algorithms for EVERYTHING. Sometimes they do a high-tech version of an old movie trick--when you look out a window, you see a city, but it's just a large photograph of a city with a light shining through it. Now you look out that window, and it's a digital photograph of that city composited in. Same thing, different technique.
The Best Show You've Never Heard
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Here's my 2 cents on cgi. I think the problem with it was that George got carried away with it. He was like a kid in a candy store. "Oohhh, instead of having 3 ships, let's have 60 of them!!! And I want 2,000 Wookies in that shot!!! And the ships have to tilt, then swoop, then go under that ship and around, and then do this and that! Oh man, I wish I could have done this in the 70's and 80's!!!! Wouldn't this look GREAT in the original trilogy?!!!! Hey Rick, I need to make a few more OT changes!"

I also think that filming mostly in front of blue and green screens limited the actors' movement and performances. There are just way too many scenes of actors walking slowly, side-by-side delivering wordy conversations and scenes with people sitting still talking. To me, this was one of the biggest gripes I had with the PT. In many ways, the prequels look like stage plays, which is kind of the way they were filmed. I don't know if this is just me or if others felt that way too. The shots just aren't visually exciting and it kind of makes the prequels drag.

I wish there had been more fully built, man-made sets in the PT. I think part of the reason the OT performances were so convincing was that the actors could actually see the worlds that George had imagined. They saw the corridors of the Death Star, the trash compactor, the carbon freezing chamber, etc. I think the feel and pacing of the OT would have been vastly different if they had been filmed in front of blue screens.

George Lucas was seduced by the dark side. The OOT ceased to exist in his mind and became the Special Editions...." "They're more maching now than movies. Twisted and evil."
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Originally posted by: JennyS1138
Here's my 2 cents on cgi. I think the problem with it was that George got carried away with it. He was like a kid in a candy store. "Oohhh, instead of having 3 ships, let's have 60 of them!!! And I want 2,000 Wookies in that shot!!! And the ships have to tilt, then swoop, then go under that ship and around, and then do this and that! Oh man, I wish I could have done this in the 70's and 80's!!!! Wouldn't this look GREAT in the original trilogy?!!!! Hey Rick, I need to make a few more OT changes!"


ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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i agree cg just seems SO cg. and i agree directors, even peter jackson, use it as a crutch.
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sorry guys. Totally missed this response on the 8th. I wanna rewind and address it

but the prequels have brought out a level of hatred that, to me personaly, has seriously hurt the saga.

I don't necessarily agree. Again, there were plenty of people in 1998 who liked star wars and didn't like every star wars movie. If I remember right, that infamous "50 reasons why ROTJ sucks" magazine article was written around then. Again, the idea that the prequels really fractured Star Wars fandom is a product of you not really paying attention or having access to other aspects of fandom before the internet. Star Wars fandom was ALWAYS this fractured. What the prequels (and the availability of the internet) did is bring that division closer to your home. It also doesn't help that on a site like this, such a division is one of THE focal points of discussion, especially in this forum. So you're going to get a tunnelvision thing going on, it's going to seem a lot more considerably fractured and more important than it really is.

To use a quote from a movie you hate "your focus determines your reality." what you focus on is altering your perception. That's essentially all I'm saying. you don't seem to be taking into account a "larger view" that includes more than just boards like this, and history of fans and fan writings and reactions BEFORE 1998. It's what allows you to say Star Wars, before the prequels, was never mocked by the fans
as if just stating it made it true. It SEEMED true to you, but it's not. Never has been.

This isn't a Star Wars only phenomena, either. It happens across the board to almost EVERY intellectual property with geek appeal. The notes we're hitting here aren't all that unique, Star Wars' incredible box office and home video sales regardless.
The Best Show You've Never Heard
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Q]Star Wars, before the prequels, was never mocked by the fans as if just stating it made it true. It SEEMED true to you, but it's not. Never has been.

This isn't a Star Wars only phenomena, either. It happens across the board to almost EVERY intellectual property with geek appeal. The notes we're hitting here aren't all that unique, Star Wars' incredible box office and home video sales regardless.

Text

I agree with you it was mocked by people who didn't like it. Growing up, I had friends who just didn't get Star Wars, didn't see the appeal, and thought it was dorky to be a SW fans. But again, they were people that never liked it in the first place.

Then my friends that liked it, sure we argued what was better ESB or ROTJ, or the ewoks, or Boba Fett dying like a punk. But I am talking about just the fans of SW never mocked each other in a way we do now. The OT generation that hates the PT, disdains the fans who loves them, thinks they like the movies for just effects and believe Jar Jar ruined TPM. On the other hand the younger generation that love the PT, think the OT fans should get over it, and believe the only reason they think the OT is better is cause nostalgia. Now I'm sure there are young fans that like the OT, vice versa, but again I am generalizing.

I will give my own story, I grew up with the OT, love it and do think Jedi is the worst of the OT. Hate the OT SE changes, can't stand TPM, think AOTC is alright, and liked ROTS. But for 10 years now Lucas has burned bridges with me, that he has left me with a bad taste in my mouth toward SW, hell we have a websight called www.originaltrilogy.com! What more irony do you want.

So, I agree you are always going to have disagreements, and definitely the internet does increase levels of love & hatred on both sides, but there are SW fans, just SW fans, who despise the PT, I mean hate it vehemently, but even if they didn't love ROTJ, they never hated it or Lucas like they do now.Text
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But I am talking about just the fans of SW never mocked each other in a way we do now.


And I'm telling you, YES, they did. You just didn't notice it. I'm with you, man, I didn't notice it at the time, either. It took until way later, when I dug around the library, read some old stuff on microfilm, on the old PINE newsreaders back in 95-96, reading old magazine articles in the library database, and when google bought deja-news and made the history of usenet completely searchable, looked through that too. And what I'm telling you is that this sort of split, this rift, this anger has ALWAYS been there. it seems new to you because you just recently started focusing on that rift. but it's not new. Fans have mocked it. People who DID like the films were angered by later ones. The only substantial thing that's been changed by the Prequels is WHERE that rift runs now.

Before the SE's, the rift occurred between ESB and ROTJ, and to a lesser extent, between Star Wars and ESB. People saying "Star Wars to me is just Star Wars." hell, the first recorded instance of someone saying "A New Hope? Garbage revisionism. Give me Star Wars and throw away the rest" happened around 83 (I'm paraphrasing, but that was the sentiment) But there was a definite chunk of fandom that liked Star Wars, and seriously disliked one, if not both of the sequels, and mocked and argued and went rounds and fought just as much and as vehemently as geeks on the net do now.

After the SE's, the rift moved, obviously, to the Originals vs SE's. And then after the Prequels, the rift became PT vs OT. But it's the same rift, and the same sides on both sides, yelling the same stuff they've been yelling at each other since 1983. The Prequels and the SE's didn't do anything but change where that focus was placed.
The Best Show You've Never Heard
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And I'm telling you, YES, they did. You just didn't notice it. I'm with you, man, I didn't notice it at the time, either. It took until way later, when I dug around the library, read some old stuff on microfilm, on the old PINE newsreaders back in 95-96, reading old magazine articles in the library database, and when google bought deja-news and made the history of usenet completely searchable, looked through that too. And what I'm telling you is that this sort of split, this rift, this anger has ALWAYS been there. it seems new to you because you just recently started focusing on that rift. but it's not new. Fans have mocked it. People who DID like the films were angered by later ones. The only substantial thing that's been changed by the Prequels is WHERE that rift runs now.

Before the SE's, the rift occurred between ESB and ROTJ, and to a lesser extent, between Star Wars and ESB. People saying "Star Wars to me is just Star Wars." hell, the first recorded instance of someone saying "A New Hope? Garbage revisionism. Give me Star Wars and throw away the rest" happened around 83 (I'm paraphrasing, but that was the sentiment) But there was a definite chunk of fandom that liked Star Wars, and seriously disliked one, if not both of the sequels, and mocked and argued and went rounds and fought just as much and as vehemently as geeks on the net do now.

After the SE's, the rift moved, obviously, to the Originals vs SE's. And then after the Prequels, the rift became PT vs OT. But it's the same rift, and the same sides on both sides, yelling the same stuff they've been yelling at each other since 1983. The Prequels and the SE's didn't do anything but change where that focus was placed.

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Hey, that is a pretty good comparison, and you're right, cause most people I know either loved all 3 OT movies, or didn't like SW, so I guess I knew no one in the middle. The funny thing is, I find myself in the original/ESB crowd now. I see a huge drop in quality from ESB to ROTJ, and it kills me that the trilogy I grew up with to me has only two classics instead of three.

Now in saying that, I can still watch Jedi, for the last hour, especially the Emperor scenes and the space battle still make it great, but not a classic. It is funny cause I think Jedi, gets a little too much flack cause it is compared to SW & ESB, and ROTS gets too much credit cause it gets compared to an inferior TPM & AOTC.

Where does this leave us now, who knows. But you made good points, so I respect your opinion.
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Prior to the Prequels, up to and including the 1997 Special Editions, Star Wars fans garnered a certain amount of respect not afforded to other fan bases.

Star Trek fans, particularly, had unjustifiably become synonomous with the stigmatic image of a lonely white male, safely nestled away in his parent's basement. They were known to be extremely over-protective of their obsession, discussing the minutiae of Star Trek ad nauseum at conventions and in fanzines. They were marginalized in society and, this can't have been very nice for them to endure, they were often ridiculed in the Press and became punch lines on late night talk shows.

Star Wars fans were spared this, because, as a group we were pretty cohesive and didn't take ourselves all that seriously. More importantly, we were not mocked, made fun of, or condescended by the mainstream. We were a happy bunch who saw Star Wars as fun, that when pressed, more often than not would repeat the words of the still respected George Lucas, "They're just movies."

We endured the Special Editions, they were fun. It was a blast to hear so many like minded fans, a mix of all nationalities, religions and sexes, cheering the first time Obi-Wan was on screen, or laughing when Luke wanted to go to Tosche station. We were united and strong, and nothing could hold us back in the sheer exhileration of sharing 2 hours with complete strangers who, in fact, had everything in common.

This was also around the time that the Internet started to become widely used. Now, all of a sudden, you could actually talk to these people. What a concept. Suddenly, Star Wars fandom wasn't only between a group of 3 or 4 friends. Suddenly, Star Wars fandom was becoming a global community.

When all of these personalities started to mix, there was infighting to be sure, there were disagreements, but damn it - it was still cool to be a Star Wars fan and we were united.

A coupke of years later, around the time of 'Phantom Menace,' there was this great shift in the extended Star Wars family. A splinter occurred due to the obvious reaction to the film and Star Wars fans became polarized. Suddenly, the prevailing opinion was, 'What do we do now?' I clearly remember for the very first time, a clear and decisive line being drawn down the middle of the community, and you were either on the 'I still love Star Wars side,' or the 'George Lucas raped my childhood side.' There was no grey area, and this to me, signalled the beginning of the end of two things - 1) The "coolness" of being a Star Wars fan & 2) The 'respect' we garnered from the mainstream.

Debate was furious, to say the least. We were at each other's throats like lions. 'Phantom Menace' was deconstructed, ripped apart, put back together (literally in some cases!) and the community became more and more polarized. The debate spilled over into the Original Trilogy. The Prequel-Haters disdain for Lucas was evident in their SE bashing. The Prequel-Lovers would defend Lucas, but were willing to concede that they were all a little bit let down. The two sides were fine for the most part with the SE's before 'Phantom Menace' mind you, but now here was something that drove a stake through the heart of the Star Wars fanbase, and the cohesive global community began to die.

We began to disect the original trilogy with a venom unseen for two decades. We began to get irritated by the little things that we had generally accepted for most of our natural lives. Then there was the saturation of the marketplace with Star Wars product. You couldn't go into Wal-Mart and sneeze without hitting something emblazoned with the Star Wars logo.

Here is the point of my long-winded brief history of Star Wars fandom - the mainstream smelled this shift and lept upon us. The Press began to tear us down, mock us, and treat us with the same kind of disrespect that had until that time been reserved for the Trekkers. Suddenly, it was us on Letterman's Top 10 lists, not them. It was really, really sad - and more than likely a great time to be be a Star Trek fan!

And you know what? Through all of this hate, spite and endless debate among the Star Wars Community, it gets really depressing that we all can't remember, cherish and love the very thing that brought us so much happiness over the years, happiness that we should be grateful for. Then I usually shrug and tell myself that, after all - we did it to ourselves.
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Responding to someone's post line by line? I seem to recall that being someone's pet peeve as well. Interesting.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Yeah, that was my pet peeve. It's not JUST mine, obviously, but it came up during one of our discussions more than once. you don't do it as much anymore though. Thanks for that
The Best Show You've Never Heard
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No offense, but this is not due to your request. I've just not been in many discussions lately. It's still my style when the need arises, regardless of whose peeve it is.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Responding to someone's post line by line? I seem to recall that being someone's pet peeve as well. Interesting.


There's an actual term for this. "Fisking." wikipedia definition is here for anybody interested.

I'm going to refrain from making judgements on it, as I'm often guilty of it myself.

It is nice to see an intellectual SW thread again.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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LOL. That's pretty funny.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>