Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released) — Page 22

Author: Commander Courage
Time: 9-Nov-2005 5:56 PM
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SHROUD OF THE DARK SIDE

-20th Century/Lucasfilm Ltd./A Long Time Ago In a Galaxy Far, Far Away… title cards all replaced with classic logos.
-New title and opening crawl.
-Openinng shot pans down like other 5 films, instead of up as in AotC.
-Handmaiden cropped out of interior shot of ship.
-Close up of ship explosion, new sound effect. Much shorter dialogue between Padme and Typho. Wipe from dead Corde’s face to next scene.
-New musical cue from RotJ introduces conference room scene. Establishing shot reversed and de-saturated. Office master shot reversed, dialogue reworked to mention Dooku at the beginning.
-Yoda’s “warm feelings” line is cut. Replace with, "In grave danger, you are."
-Anakin is dubbed throughout the film.
-Jar-Jar is dubbed in German and subtitled throughout the film.
-Padme is still the Queen of Naboo, a born Queen. She serves as Senator in additon to her royal duties.
-Anakin/Obi-Wan argument in Padme apartment is edited and used as off screen dialogue in next scene.
-More emphasis is put on Anakin’s dreams of his mother in night conversation with Obi-Wan.
-No Jango Fett in deployment of the assassin droid scene.
-Obi-Wan/Anakin argument from previous scene inserted offscreen, heard in Padme's bedroom.
-Zam is not a changeling.
-“I’ve heard this lesson before.” “You haven’t learned anything, Anakin.”-inserted/”And I think she is a changeling.”-removed. New background music in nightclub. More ridiculous crowd shots (video game screens, etc.) replaced by shots from other films.
-Anakin goes to talk to Palpatine on his own, to infrom him of his assignment. Not requested by the Council. Fade ot black at end of scene to Anakin's dream.
-Anakin’s dream sequence is intercut with images of Tusken Raiders and Shmi in pain. Dialogue from Qui-Gon, Shmi, and young Anakin.
-Deleted Jedi Temple Analysis scene inserted. Droid is dubbed and identifies dart being from Kamino.
-Diner scene completely removed. Most of younglings scene edited out, except for end conversation with Obi-Wan and Yoda.
-Yoda/Mace/Obi-Wan scene removed. Repalced with deleted scene with Mace and Obi-Wan when he leaves in starfighter.
-Anakin and Padme's political discussion is altered to fit with Padme being both Queen and Sentor. Queen Jamillia scene is removed.
-Lama-Su dubbed. Syfo-Dias replaced by another character.
-Deleted scenes of Padme family dinner/kitchen/room scenes all inserted.
-Moral implications of cloning are mentioned by Lama-Su and Obi-Wan. Boba Fett is not a clone of Jango.
-Picnic scene edited to focus more on politics. New establishing shot from other sources. Animals totally eliminated from scene.
-Jango's mention of Tyranus removed.
-Anakin and Padme's balcony scene moved to night setting, transitions to fireside scene with overlaying dialogue.
-While Anakin meditates on balcony, noises from nightmare are heard until Padme arrives. “Your presence is soothing.”
-New music from “Rite of Spring," and new sound effects for seismic charges accompany Jango and Obi-Wan's dogfight.
-Shot of suns inserted in sunset scene to better paralled ANH. New music: Alternate Binary Sunset from ANH.
-New Dooku theme: “Uranus” from The Planets.
-Neimodians are dubbed in German and subtitled throughout the film.
-Qui-Gon’s “NO” improved in Yoda's meditation.
-Anakin does not confess his actions to Padme, but we get an idea of what he did as he talks to himself.
-Anakin and Padme's decision to rescue Obi-Wan re-edited to better reflect what's going on in the film.
-C-3PO stays onboard ship/not turned into battledroid or present at the Battle of Geonosis.
-The droid factory scene is desaturated. New music. Padme scream added which distracts Anakin.
-Deleted trail scene inserted. New subtitles added.
-“I love you” scene is edited more naturally. This is Anakin and Padme's first kiss. Love theme crescendos at kiss, instead of later.
-Padme and Anakin escape bondage first. (They have a plan, Obi-Wan is out of the loop.)
-Mace’s entrance is a surprise, shot of him approaching Dooku's box removed. His lightsaber is now blue. New music: Sail Barge fanfare from RotJ when Jedi appear.
-New music, triumphant as Yoda arrive with clones.
-New Music: “Mars” from The Planets accompanies Battle of Geonosis.
-Impact flashes are added for blaster fire (as in OT).
-Clonetroopers have microphone sounds in helmets when they talk, like Stormtroopers in OT.
-Subtitles changed in War Room scene with Death Star plans. Imperial fanfare from ANH (Death Star theme) is heard.
-Small dialogue edits on gunship. When Padme fall off, Obi-Wan calms Anakin down and Anakin theme is heard.
-Anakin rushes ahead and is force-pushed (or something) by Dooku. Force lightning totally removed from duel.
-Duel re-edited and alternate lightsaber sound effects to sound more like OT. New music: Battle of Yavin from ANH.
-Yoda enters during Anakin/Dooku portion of duel. Dooku ignores him to talk to Yoda, then Anakin lurches from shadows only to have arm cut off.
-Again, no force lightning battle between Yoda/Dooku. No lightsaber duel either.
-"I’ve become more powerful than any Jedi," is follied by Dooku bringing down crane and fleeing to his ship.
-New triumphant music heard as Yoda lifts crane..
-“Lord Tyranus” removed from final Sith scene, replaced by “Count Dooku."
-Last line of film: "The shroud of the dark side has fallen."

Many, many, many more updates and changes to come.

Author: InfoDroid
Time: 9-Nov-2005 8:24 PM
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Awesome. Thanks for taking the time to do that that, CC! There were a lot of changes that I somehow hadn't yet read about. Now we can all be on the same page.

Author: Trooperman
Time: 9-Nov-2005 8:45 PM
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I have absolutely no time right now to respond properly, but I will respond in the near future. Until then, thank you so much for all your great feedback and time put into cataloguing my changes. I'm really grateful for you guys. Also something I'll discuss later is that I defintely have a Lama-Su in Nanner Split. His test recordings impressed me very much.

Sorry for my delay...you deserve better but I'm so busy lately. I'll respond as quickly as possible.

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

Author: Nanner Split
Time: 9-Nov-2005 9:23 PM
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Glad you hear you liked them. I thought they sounded terrible, quite frankly.

Author: darth_newmacer
Time: 9-Nov-2005 10:29 PM
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TROOPERMAN, YOU ROCK!!! The diner scene is cut!!! All is well. Thank you. No pressure, but PLEASE RELEASE A TORRENT OR SOMETHING for the movie!!!

Author: MTHaslett
Time: 10-Nov-2005 12:27 AM
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Wow-- Commander Courage, you are a MAN! I have much less finished than you do-- but I'll be the "double-checker" of the list, I guess.

Nanner-- congratulations and thanks! Good work getting your "screen test" to Trooperman so diligently.

Is there another fan edit as ambitious as this one? I haven't been checking, I just can't imagine there is. The combination of great music/OT styling (please add a little "film look" aging)/voice dubbing/ and actual story changes here makes me look forward to this like it's the actual release of the film -- that "Attack of the Clones" was just a test screening before they went back for retooling.

This thread is "the Ranch" as far as I'm concerned.

Author: InfoDroid
Time: 10-Nov-2005 4:24 AM
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"This thread is 'the Ranch' as far as I'm concerned."

LOL!

I'd have to agree.

Author: Sluggo
Time: 11-Nov-2005 1:35 PM
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Mmmm... Delicious ranch! I can't wait for this one.

Author: Trooperman
Time: 11-Nov-2005 4:52 PM
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OK....

The combination of great music/OT styling (please add a little "film look" aging)/voice dubbing/ and actual story changes here makes me look forward to this like it's the actual release of the film -- that "Attack of the Clones" was just a test screening before they went back for retooling.

This thread is "the Ranch" as far as I'm concerned.

I'm completely flattered by this. Thank you all for your tremendous support for this project. Even though it's just a handful of you- it makes all the difference to me.

It's occurred to me that it'll be a really good idea to start backing up all of my files at this point. I'm just having visions of all you guys so excited about this project, and then I get a virus or my PC crashes and I lose everything. This CANNOT happen.

Now, regarding Nanner Split doing Lama-Su....

I thought they sounded terrible, quite frankly.

Yes, but you are your hardest judge, I think. I was very impressed with your edited readings, the ones where you lowered the timbre of your voice. The raw ones...not so much

Now granted, none of the lines you read are read the way I would want them to be in the movie (and I would give you advice on these before you did the lines from your two scenes), but I'm just saying that the quality of your voice and your accent are very nice. You sound more like Lama-Su than Lama-Su

Now, here's the only thing I was wondering about...could you send me a full-quality .wav reading, using the best equipment you have? I just noticed that there's a lot of background noise in the files you sent, and I'm not sure whether that's just the compression to the mp3 or the original quality of the recording. If you could do that, it'd be great; that's the only thing I'm apprehensive about. You see, this mix is probably going to be under very heavy scrutiny after this comes out, and we don't want people to be able to distinguish between original digital mix and the new PC recordings.

TROOPERMAN, YOU ROCK!!! The diner scene is cut!!! All is well. Thank you. No pressure, but PLEASE RELEASE A TORRENT OR SOMETHING for the movie!!!

Thank you! I always disliked the diner scene. As far as a torrent...I'm on dial-up and I am not really Internet-savvy at all. But when the time comes, I'll find out how to upload it to the Internet from a computer with DSL, for you to see.

----------------------------------------------------

I'm glad you all liked the lightsaber clips- a bit of trivia is that I had to go back into the mix after I was done and remove the Darth Vader breathing sounds that had somehow crept into the mix

The animated duel shot in the original mix is so horrible

I do think so, especially because there were no hums, no swinging sounds, and there were three or four hits that didn't even match up with the action. The choreography was done in the style of the OT- it just needed a better mix. Anyway...

Conference scene- thank you MTHaslett and Twister for your suggestions. I'll use them and play around with this to see what will work. The thing is, once I leave the master shot, I don't want to come back to it; it doesn't seem right. Also, there are a couple shots that need to happen in a specific order, as this is the beginning of the movie and we're reintroducing people. The first shot of Mace, for example; the slow zoom in this shot introduces him and we can't have it after another shot. I also noticed that the rough thing I put together has a lot of talking and no pausing going on. The real reason for this was because I was trying to cram all the dialogue in before I cut to Palpatine.

Several of you mentioned the transition and the cut to Palpatine as looking "off". They are off, as I noted when I tried to post it the first time. They are little program errors and both these issues will be fixed. I think the transition was off because the PC had a problem with the fact that I slowed down the Corde shot and the establishing shot at different rates.

I'm sure that will extend to help the painfully stilted dialogue delivery in the subsequent portions with Natalie Portman.

Absolutely- actually, this has some new music as well. We start the separatist/mystery theme, and then we go into a beautiful "old movie" type of underscore that tells you some drama and tension is going on. The music carries the transition as well. There's a very practical reason I did this beyond the artistic- they didn't include the original music on the soundtrack disc and the elevator scene is cut. Also, I wanted to remove Padme's line, "Thank you, Master Windu" (poor delivery), so this was the ideal opportunity.

GREAT decision to throw in that little Emperor's cue from ROTJ at the beginning of the conference scene! That immediately takes us right back to the OT and lets the audience know they can expect to see Palpatine. Magnificent. Little things like that are what's going to take this project beyond anyone's expectations.

Thanks- I was wondering if anyone would pick up on that! Also noticed that I merged it with the g minor strings thing from track 3 of disc 1, ROTJ, to give it more length, to make it carry over into the following scene, and also to remove Darth Vader's theme from the previous. And then I grabbed a generic rendition of the separatist theme for inside (in the same key) as a stand-in. For the final, it'll be a new rendition on tuba.

I'm going to find out who you are, tie you to your computer and make you finish this NOW

Oh, no you don't

I guess I'll have to post something I botched completely now.

The scene reversal as well, but I'd encourage you not to reverse the closeups of Palpatine in his chair; it looks rather odd. Of course if you have another reason for this I don't realize, you know best.

Well, one reason is continuity with the crystal thing on his desk (doesn't really matter, though). Another reason is because it looks a bit odd the other way because suddenly the camera seems to be on the opposite side of the establishing shot. Not sure if I'm making any sense.

In my following post, I'll discuss the great changes list that was posted for me.

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Author: twister111
Time: 12-Nov-2005 9:38 AM
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Also, there are a couple shots that need to happen in a specific order, as this is the beginning of the movie and we're reintroducing people. The first shot of Mace, for example; the slow zoom in this shot introduces him and we can't have it after another shot.

Hm, well, I looked at it again and, it looks like the "were keepers of the peace not soldiers" is cut in later and, is after the zoom. Perhaps having "were keepers of the peace(on Mace)" "not soldiers(close-up of yoda)" "Master yoda(cut to behind palpatine shot with hologram guy talking)" Would that work?

http://twister111.tumblr.com
Previous Signature preservation link

Author: MTHaslett
Time: 12-Nov-2005 2:28 PM
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Trooperman:
The thing is, once I leave the master shot, I don't want to come back to it; it doesn't seem right.

***

It was good enough for the opening scene of ANH as the rebels wait for that door to get cut open ;-)

The trick would be, if you wanted to figure it out, make the moving master build toward something-- i.e. allow it to be a thread that pulls several shots together for a pay-off once the master is over. If we start on a moving master, pushing in... then cut to a c.u. of Mace or Yoda... then back to the master, still pushing in (but NOT back to where we left off-- you have to allow the master to "continue" moving in the back of our minds, as if it were continuing even as we cut away) the master moves us closer to Palpatine... then cut to another c.u. of Mace... then back to the very end of the moving master before the PAY OFF-- a c.u. of Palpatine saying a crucial line ("My negotiations will NOT fail." or something). Then the editing carries on from there.

You make perfect sense in saying why you have to flip both the master and the c.u. There's the "180 line" that you cannot cross if you want to maintain a steady geography. If the camera suddenly cuts to an angle from the other side of the room it jolts the audience into confusion. We like scenes staged as if we were sitting on one side of all the action, like it's on a stage. When editors break this rule, sh*t happens.

It's shocking what you point out about the animated duel shots. That's why this is the Ranch. We don't let crap like that sneak by here at the Ranch -- only amatures make that kind of mistake. We can't afford to because we're making Star Wars!

Author: Trooperman
Time: 12-Nov-2005 3:30 PM
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Thanks, Twister and MTH.

It was good enough for the opening scene of ANH as the rebels wait for that door to get cut open ;-)

True...but that was a static shot, not a zoom. Still, I understand exactly what you're saying with cutting back to the master, but not where you left off. As usual, I was dense and didn't understand what you were saying the first time around. I'm thinking of taking Twister's suggestion so that I can use the close-up of Yoda (who's not saying anything) for whatever I want.

You make perfect sense in saying why you have to flip both the master and the c.u.

I'm actually thinking of flipping almost this whole scene. Again, Palpatine figures more prominently in the framing:

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/4082/conference7ra.jpg

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Author: InfoDroid
Time: 12-Nov-2005 6:30 PM
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What editing program is that, Trooperman?

By the way, I support your decision to flip the whole scene. Again, the eye "reads" the screen left to right. It makes more visual sense for Palpatine to be on the left.

Author: Trooperman
Time: 12-Nov-2005 6:36 PM
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This is Vegas, which I use in conjunction with SoundForge, as well as some freeware and some other little tools.

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Author: MTHaslett
Time: 13-Nov-2005 1:39 AM
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Flip it, baby.

That change is powerful-- and looking again at this opening sequence as originally done, your changes to the dialogue make two things happen -- first off, I realize how much you're improving it; second, I realize how much crap work I was overlooking before.

Now I can't approve of anything as done in the original opening-- I have a whole new angle to pitch you about the space ship landing.

To my eye, the footage is beautiful, but the writing and the performances are bad. Solution -- re-cut.

The only performance I'm charmed by on the landing dock is R2.

My idea is reshape the entire sequence as if it were from R2's p.o.v. This may require a cut in shot from another sequence, but I think it can be handled just with sound effects.

The benefit is to avoid almost every line of dialogue from this sequence and let the powerful images tell the story. Nothing is said that wasn't either covered in the opening crawl or obvious from the action.

So it would go something like this: THe big ship lands. Cut to a naboo fighter as a pilot climbs out. HEAR R2 as he is lowered out and we get his C.U. He rolls out of the shot and we CUT to the landing bridge of the Queen's ship -- but we KEEP HEARING R2's chirpy reactions. We do NOT hear the security bozo say "Duh, I sure hope my dialogue helps make you surprised when the ship explodes..." -- instead, we watch the queen march down the plank and cut back to R2 as he sees the queen coming and whistles a kind of greeting. Make it seem R2 really believes it's Padme. Then back to the gang-plank as BOOM! Padme gets blown to bits we hear R2 Scream (like in the Death Star trenches). Give us a C.U. of R2 with flames reflecting off him if you can before cutting to the wides shot of the other R2 unit getting thrown.

Then as the real Padme gets up and runs, give us more R2 noises as he rolls forward-- then reveal Padme's identity as she leans over the dying Korday. "Korday" she says. "My lady..." says Korday. Padme shakes her head (no more dialogue from Korday). "No..." says Padme. The music SWELLS. Cut the rest of Security bozo's lines, he sucks. Cut to the last part of the shot where he stands after urging her to hurry and R2 rolls into view -- give us another R2 cue-- he's urging her to go. She stands with Security bozo behind her looking around, cut back to the dying Korday instead of giving Padme anymore lines. Then Padme realizes it's time to go without being urged by Security bozo so the next shot is back to her close up with the bozo well behind her and then he leans/moves forward and we cut to the wide shot of them leaving together. Here we see R2 again and it would be nice to keep his presence audible as much as possible without overdoing it. Better music will sure help. It feels like, musically speaking, they played this scene for shock more than for emotion-- I think it should be more passionate musically. That will carry you into the story much more than all that dialogue did.

Hope you see what I mean. Hell, I hope you already did all this. At least I hope you consider it.

All the best. You rock.

Author: MTHaslett
Time: 13-Nov-2005 2:13 AM
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Sorry for the double post --

I've been watching the magfan cut wiht the sound off and see how much there is to trim pace wise from the speeder chase and the long ass walk around the cantina. Even the speeder crash/Anakin landing and running needs major work to really come off. It should go WHAM! speeder crashes; SMASH Anakin lands. Zam gets out and runs. Anakin is already up and running after her... Not easy to pull off with the footage there, but dammit if that isn't how it was supposed to happen. Anakin needs to come off as capable and confident.

Which brings me to my point: I've always loathed the Padme bedroom scene where she whines about not wanting to leave and he whines about Obi Wan not recognizing how awesome he is. But now I am thinking twice -- if it can be cut down it will be good. My recommendation is to keep the hand-off of power to Jar Jar; then have Anakin assure her this will be quick since Obi Wan's on the case, have her say "I haven't worked for a year to dash off into hiding" and then he says "Sometimes we have to sacrifice" so she's shocked and says "Hey, you've grown up." She looks at him and WIPE!---

Out. That's nice. He impressed her and that's good. It's romantic, it's growth and it moves the story.

Please don't let the scene go any further than that, though, please. It undercuts the "getting to know you" beats that occur on the trip. If he's already leering at her and she's already complaining, then it's just repetitive to do it again later. Get them on that transport and move the story along.

Thanks for listening. Done for now.

Author: MTHaslett
Time: 13-Nov-2005 1:45 PM
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Alright -- a triple post, sue me.

Continuing to watch the movie, the scene on the refugee ship with R2, Padme and Anakin always bothered me, but I didn't have an idea of how to fix it-- until now.

With the realization that R2 is charming, but under utilized I see his staging is one of the major differences between the OT and the PT. Beats such as this one where the cook-droid tells R2 that no droids are allowed would be a fun little bit in the OT, but in the PT it's tossed off so poorly that it feels cliche.

What it's missing are the shots that would make it work-- the close ups that would turn it into a little embarrassing episode for R2.

Second problem with the scene is the Padme/Anakin dynamic is all off balance because Hayden is into full Mack-Daddy mode in his line readings and the script pushes him to go there-- every line is another come on to Padme. That's bad for the romance -- we should feel the love blooming before he hits us over the head with it. Why does he feel so entitled to her love? He should feel, as he says later, much too intimidated to put all these moves on a Senator.

So with a few changes, I see a much better, more OT scene available to us:

There's a wipe to the EXT. Spaceship shot -- then CUT inside to a C.U. (find this somewhere) of R2 reaching out with his arm to grab something... "Hey!" CUT TO the wide shot: he's been caught grabbing stuff off the counter. "No droids allowed!" Back to R2's C.U. for a moment as he responds with an insulted chirp, then back to the wide shot as he takes his stolen goods and wheels off to Anakin. R2 delivers the food and Padme thanks him -- let R2 give a more spirited "You're welcome, but what a jerk that guy was" kind of response and then he exits.

Padme tells Anakin she thinks it must be hard for him to be a Jedi. "Yes, I can't be with the people I love." In the original cut, this is a come-on to Padme. In our cut we should do our best to make it a line purely and solely about his mother. How? Cut all the mack-daddy stuff from the rest of this scene.

Padme: Are you allowed to love? I thought it was forbidden for a Jedi to love.

[Here, the original cut goes to Hayden's reaction which is a kind of smirk that says "well, maybe, but I still really want to love you" before he says his next line. I think it's vital to cut this smirk and let his next line start from the more humble facial expression that he exhibits as he looks down before actually speaking. This shortens the pause and humbles the character -- changing the subtext from a sexual come-on to a more halting, personal reveal]

Anakin: Attachments are forbidden. Posession is forbidden. But compassion, which I would define as unconditional love is central to a Jedi's life. YOu might say that a Jedi is encouraged to love.

[Cut Padme's response and Anakin's next lines -- go straight to the look Padme gives at the end of their exchange which says "Wow, I'm really starting to see this guy differently." Then she looks down and we cut away realizing they're really getting to know each other.]

The unconditional love attitude is sexy and charming. The slimy smirking mack-daddy shit is repulsive. When he gives her less, she wants more and we want her to want him more. Every time he tries to push stuff on her "You're growing more beautiful" "Why can't I look at you this way?" "I dream about you all the time" he comes off like an ass. But when he is simply mature and admiring her from a distance, giving only subconscious hints of his love for her, then he's attractive.

I think these changes will really smooth out the romance and increase the OT feel by raising the charm quotient. Less is more for Anakin and more is more for R2.

Thanks for reading.

Author: Commander Courage
Time: 13-Nov-2005 4:43 PM
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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
I think these changes will really smooth out the romance and increase the OT feel by raising the charm quotient. Less is more for Anakin and more is more for R2.

Great suggestions on editing down the bedroom and refugee ship scenes. That would really make the romance more natural, especially from Padme's perspective. The Artoo stuff isn't really necessary, but either way is fine by me.

Author: MTHaslett
Time: 13-Nov-2005 5:30 PM
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When you say the artoo stuff doesn't do much for you, have you gone back to actually see what the changes might do? I admit they didn't seem interesting to me at first. The droids were annoying in the PT more often than not. But they were delightful in the OT. What was the difference?

I think it was the care given to their little bits and after seeing all these missed opportunities I think it would be a major step in line with Trooperman's intention to get more "OT" if the droid stuff could be brought up to snuff.

C3P0 is harder to deal with because his dialogue was witty in the OT and clumsy in the PT and that's hard to improve with editing. Artoo, on the other hand, has no dialogue. He has stuff that is almost charming, like getting told he can't pick up food at the counter -- but it's tossed off in a "been there done that" way compared to similar beats in the OT. That's why they don't carry the day.

The thing to achieve is giving Artoo a stronger sense of p.o.v. ANH tells a story from beginning to end from their p.o.v. and the OT maintains that sub-story pretty well. But TPM never did any good droid p.o.v. beats with the possible exception of Artoo's first meeting with Threepio.

SOTD has at least these two opportunities to build scenes around Artoo's p.o.v. Given the contrast between that opportunity, or sticking with the stilted character stuff that's there already, I can't help seeing this as more than a "meh" kind of issue.

--and come on, how great would it be to start the movie from Artoo's p.o.v.? That scene on the landing deck is powerful image-wise, but totally balls with Padme's "oh my gosh, I'm so unable to move because I'm so shocked" routine that requires a totally stiff Typho to goose her into action. Remove Typho, let Padme be a self-starter, and start it all by locking us into Artoo's p.o.v -- that's what a Prequel opening scene is supposed to be!

Author: InfoDroid
Time: 14-Nov-2005 7:05 PM
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I like the Artoo idea, considering Lucas' original vision was to have the entire saga told from the droids' perspective. Maybe that's a big part of what was missing in the charm-free and unmagical Prequels?

Lucas decided instead to tell TPM from Jar-Jar's point of view, and I think that's where he wanted to go with AOTC and ROTS, but probably changed his mind after the Jar-Jar backlash.

Instead, the droids were reduced to peripheral, nostalgia-inducing comic-relief which ultimately amounted to being niether comedic nor nostalgic, excluding a few brief exceptions with Artoo in ROTS. I'd like to see a version of the Prequels creatively tweaked where the droids play a more prominent role, with the charm they originally possessed in tact. With all the audio books, promotional material, cartoons, etc, there should be a wealth of audio sources available to play around with in which Anthony Daniels voiced C-3PO, so adding lines may not be as hard as you'd think. And Artoo is... Artoo. Problem solved.

To quote the Emperor: "Can it be done?"

I was under the impression, however, that Trooperman had already locked in his draft cut and was just working on finalizing a finished version of that. Or is he still taking suggestions?

Author: Trooperman
Time: 14-Nov-2005 8:58 PM
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Thanks for reading.

My pleasure! Wow- more GREAT suggestions on scenes that I hadn’t figured out how to improve yet, particularly the scene en route to Naboo. Great suggestion on an R2 “food stealing” episode- I’ll see if I might be able to find a shot and color correct/blue screen it to make it work. Good ideas on recutting the opening, which brought to my attention something else (the lack of quality in the music score for this scene). But even BETTER ideas on how to cut out Anakin’s oh-so-clever advances on Padme. I know exactly what you’re talking about when you say that less is more when dealing with attraction. I know the other way certainly doesn’t work (personal experience

Padme is much more likely to fall in love with someone that isn’t trying so hard. Which brings up the issue of line delivery- be prepared for an entirely different take on Anakin and his attitude. He will sound a lot more “manly” in this one, and hopefully this will overpower the face and the two will blend together for a more believable and likable Anakin.

As it stood in the original cut (to summarize):

1. Anakin whines about not having seen Padme for ten years.
2. They are reunited. Anakin delivers a couple awkward lines, and Padme smiles. Then, Anakin complains and whines to Obi-Wan. Padme looks on and then walks out.
3. Padme covers up the security cameras.
4. Anakin whines about Obi-Wan’s unfairness. Padme listens.
5. Anakin smirks suggestively at Padme on the ship headed for Naboo. He reveals that he’s been dreaming about her. She listens.
6. Anakin makes clever small talk about how irritating sand is. Then, they kiss.
7. Anakin says that a dictatorship would probably work. Then, after being prompted, he says that he actually wasn’t kidding. The two roll around in the grass.
8. Anakin makes his awful speech. Padme says their romance won’t work.
9. Anakin tells Padme he slaughtered a bunch of women and children. Padme says it’s OK to feel bad sometimes.
10. They smooch and get married.

I think that most of this illogical stuff is eliminated now. As for the opening scene, marvelous idea in having the editing style from R2’s point of view. Lucas even admits that R2 was not even written into the scene at first- he was added later as an afterthought. This supports your view, and I do notice that there are a lot more reaction shots from R2 in the OT than in the PT. I had already cut this scene, but it looks like I'll be going back anyhow for music, so it won't be a problem to do it this way. As you said, the “been there, done that” approach is all too apparent, and I look forward to getting hold of the full-screen DVD again to get a close-up shot of R2 at the counter. And I also completely agree about Anakin and Zam's crash landing- they will crash and the chase will continue immediately.
I was under the impression, however, that Trooperman had already locked in his draft cut and was just working on finalizing a finished version of that. Or is he still taking suggestions?

Yes, I am definitely still taking suggestions. To tell you the truth, I never actually completed my rough cut, which I did on an inferior program and had no way to adjust color, do soft wipes, or anything of the kind. That was also assuming a deadline of this Christmas, and there’s not the slightest chance of that happening. Same thing with the Lama-Su audition deadline; I was only too happy to get Nanner Split at this date, simply because I’m very much behind schedule. So my men are working as fast as they can; nobody needs to find “new ways to motivate them”

But yes, I’m cutting and recutting so much these days- there are certain scenes that have to be locked down at specific times, but some that are not as highly synchronized yet and are open to suggestion. I will be receiving two other Episode II edits in the future (Nichol’s edit and also Rebel Scumb’s DVD edition of his original lost cut). This will complete my education on what people have done with this movie, and it’ll make it certain that I’m not missing any good editing opportunities in my cut. Also, I’ve gotten another idea, which is browsing the web and reading some people’s “101 things I hate about Episode II” lists. They were just intended as complaints, (and most have been addressed in my cut-MTHaslett hit a surprising number of the general character complaints that had come up) but some bring up a couple of great points that hadn’t occurred to me. They are now part of my cut.

So I guess what I’m saying is that however much more work you think an idea is, NOW is the time to give it to me, because the likelihood is, I probably haven’t even gotten to it yet. In a couple weeks, after viewing these two new edits and incorporating any new ideas from the forums, I will probably not be as eager to go back and make major changes to something I’ve already cut, although I want this to be the best film possible and I certainly won’t blow off anything. If anyone has a great idea at ANY point in time, therefore, I'm definitely open.

Please, if you have any more suggestions, no matter how crazy (especially related to greater charm and droid involvement), please come forward now. Little things like the R2 incident en route to Naboo are great because they add charm but don’t burden the plot or the pace of the movie. And now that I’m on it, I was just thinking that it’s just as well that R2 goes to help the couple while 3PO stays on the ship- this is consistent with his behavior in the original. He really has no attachment to R2, even less than he did in the original- why would he be concerned about following R2? After all, he basically lets R2 go away in the desert, saying the twerp will probably malfunction within a day. His attachment to R2 (“R2, don’t leave me!”- ROTJ) only developed during the OT.

So please give me any suggestions you have- I’m thrilled that MTH still had more great advice this late in the game! Try to outdo him

And Sluggo, I will try my best to remember the “1138”

Another thing I’m doing (which I had forgotten about) was the sound of the clonetrooper’s mikes turning on and off. Completely forgot about that- thanks CC! Also, I did make a few changes to the map of scenes, but forgot to update the forum with them. Here they are, from my personal notes:

MAP OF SCENES

1. Opening scroll/entrance into Coruscant
2. Interior shot of ship
3. Ships land
4. Ship explodes. Corde dies.
5. Palpatine and Council scene.
6. Palpatine and Amidala scene.
7. Anakin and Obi-Wan show up at Padme’s apartment. They have meeting.
8. Part of Anakin/Obi-Wan discussion (at night). Cut with interior shots of bedroom.
9. Shot of unknown person putting something in droid. Droid flies away.
10. Anakin and Obi-Wan talk about mother. Meanwhile droid lands and unleashes bugs. (cut together).
11. They sense danger. Obi-Wan jumps out window. Anakin says to stay here. “Are you all right?”
12. Chase scene- describe in more detail later
13. The ships crash. Anakin chases Zam and meets with Kenobi
14. Anakin/Kenobi talk and go into club. Obi-Wan catches assassin.
15. Outdoor scene with Zam. Zam is shot.
16. Jedi Council scene with Obi-Wan and Anakin. “Track down this bounty hunter.”
17. Anakin/Palpatine conversation. Fade to black.
18. Anakin’s dream sequence. Intercut with images of Tuskens and of Shmi. “Don’t look back.”
19. Padme hands the reigns to Jar-Jar
20. Padme and handmaiden cry and say goodbye.
21. “Don’t do anything without consulting either myself or the council.”
22. “I do hope he doesn’t do anything foolish”
23. Jedi Temple Analysis robot scene
24. Jedi Library/Obi-Wan talks with Yoda
25. Anakin and Padme dinner aboard ship
26. Mace and Obi-Wan talk. Obi-Wan leaves in ship
27. Anakin and Padme land at Naboo and talk as they walk out/Opening shots from kitchen scene, then Bedroom scene. “They all died.”
28. Obi-Wan lands on Kamino and talks to Lama-Su
29. Dinner and kitchen scene-Anakin and Padme
30. Lama-Su shows Obi-Wan the clones.
31. Grassy picnic scene
32. Obi-Wan and Jango talk in apartment.
33. Anakin and Padme moonlit scene-leads directly into fireside scene
34. Obi-Wan exits Kamino. Sends message.
35. Mace and Yoda receive message and talk.
36. Jango and Obi-Wan have fight. Obi-Wan throws homing thing on Jango’s ship as it exits.
37. Anakin and Padme. Anakin tells her he has to leave.
38. Jango and Obi-Wan have space dogfight above Geonosis
39. Anakin and Watto chat on Tatooine
40. Obi-Wan follows Jango and lands on Geonosis
41. Anakin and Padme meet C-3PO
42. Anakin and Padme meet Owen, Beru, and Clieg Lars
43. Anakin and Cliegg chat about Shmi’s fate at the dinner table
44. Anakin sulks outside. Hugs Padme and leaves to find mother.
45. Search montage as Anakin….searches.
46. Obi-Wan sneaks around. Overhears Nute and Dooku talking. Spies on them as they talk at table.
47. Anakin finds the tent-dark scene.
48. Shmi dies in Anakin’s arms.
49. Anakin goes bananas.
50. Yoda’s scene- “Skywalker is in pain.”
51. Anakin returns home and stares at everyone sullenly.
52. Anakin and Padme talk in the garage.
53. Obi-Wan searches for Anakin’s signal outside. Realizes where he is and transmits message.
54. Funeral scene
55. They listen to R2’s message and transmit it. We cut between this and Coruscant as both parties listen.
56. Message ends. Anakin and Padme disobey Mace and depart Tatooine to save Obi-Wan.
57. Coruscant scene- “We must stop them before they’re ready.” Jar-Jar is duped.
58. Dooku talks to his prisoner, Obi-Wan.
59. Jar-Jar gives Palpatine emergency powers. Yoda and Mace talk.
60. Anakin and Padme arrive at Geonosis.
61. Anakin and Padme get out of ship and enter a passage.
62. Droids bicker. R2 leaves. “Have you no sense at all?”
63. Anakin slices up some Geonosians (unseen until this point).
64. Droid factory scene
65. Trial scene
66. “I love you.” First kiss scene.
67. Into the arena- the heroes are chained up.
68. Dooku and company arrive.
69. Escaping the monsters
70. No way out- surrounded by droids
71. Mace and the other Jedi show up. Big battle.
72. Jedi are finished. Dooku makes speech.
73. Yoda and the clones save the day- gunships take off and Dooku leaves
74. Boba Fett holds his father’s helmet
75. Yoda/Mace talk, and Anakin/Obi-Wan/Padme hit the fuel cells.
76. War room scene 1
77. More fighting
78. War room scene 2-Death Star is handed off to Dooku
79. Battle/Dooku escapes on speeder
80. Yoda and the clones take down a starship
81. Little clip of Obi-Wan and Anakin aboard ship/Little clip of battle-dramatic lighting
82. Dooku speeder chase
83. Padme falls overboard- Obi-Wan and Anakin argue
84. Yoda reacts to this (“Hmm.”). The droid army is in full retreat. “Bring me a ship.”
85. They chase Dooku into the hangar. He goes in and they run in after him.
86. Confrontation. Anakin rushes ahead and is force-pushed (or something) by Dooku. Lies on ground.
87. Padme is safe. Runs away with clone.
88. Obi-Wan gets creamed.
89. Anakin interferes, saving Obi-Wan.
90. Yoda enters during. “Master Yoda.” Dooku starts throwing objects at Yoda.
91. “I’ve become more powerful than any Jedi.” Brings crane down on heroes, chops Anakin’s arm, and runs for his life.
92. Yoda lifts the crane. (climactic moment with appropriate music)
93. Dooku escapes. Padme shoots at him in vain. Then, she runs in and hugs Anakin.
94. Dooku and Sidious chat.
95. Mace, Obi-Wan, and Yoda chat.
96. The beginning of the end. Palpatine looks at his handiwork and tries to look upset.
97. Marriage
98. End credits (with original score)

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Author: Sluggo
Time: 14-Nov-2005 10:43 PM
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Ah, this is getting better all the time. And if I might sneak one more thing into the works (write this down)...is the Wilhelm. Episode II only had a half a Wilhelm, or Wilhelm's cousin or whatever. Regardless, it wasn't a Wilhelm. Nitpicky, sure, but it's Star Wars.

Author: MTHaslett
Time: 15-Nov-2005 4:08 AM
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Great, glad you like the ideas and still have room for more-- I got more to give.

I'll put 'em together soon-- but there are lots of chances to improve the droids.

It's incredible to read that list of beats you've got now-- this is going to be a very solid movie when we're done.

Author: InfoDroid
Time: 15-Nov-2005 11:15 AM
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It's so great to see that you're still encouraging suggestions this late in the game, AND (unlike some of the other fan editors out there) you aren't so intoxicated with your own ego that you disregard any input from the people who will actually be watching this thing. Instead you welcome it, and that's extremely rare. You are a truly unique individual indeed, Trooperman, in the best possible sense of the word, and I applaud you for it.

One thing I'd like you to keep in mind for the project as a whole is that emotion is probably one of the most, if not THE most important aspect in the 2nd act of a 3-act structure, and this is the 2nd act of the prequel trilogy. It's the emotions which create the motivation which leads the characters to act. The audience should never have to question why a character is making a decision to do something. Their actions should be absolutely true to who they are and what they're feeling.

What made ESB such an emotionally satisfying picture for the audience is the fact that Irvin Kershner (as he points out in the DVD commentary) was totally focused on SHOWING the emotions of all the characters, both verbally and non-verbally, especially the incoherent characters like R2 and Chewie. The 1st act established who they are, now we have to know how they feel. The display of Human emotions is what made those characters beloved, and unfortunately, critics and fans agree, that's one of the things the Prequel trilogy is sorely devoid of (even in the Human characters!). It's all in the editing. Watch ESB again with that in mind and you'll notice there's hardly any wasted film whatsoever. Every frame either moves the plot forward or reveals character.

As it is now, the dramatic structure of AOTC and the other prequels seems more like Lucas was strategically moving archetypal cardboard cut-outs through a board game. The characters are largely uninteresting (with few exceptions), have no real depth or contradictions, and don't seem to be motivated by much more than chance and convenience, and the occasional monster or pit of doom they have to death-defyingly escape from. But... I know... I'm preaching to the converted. It's just such a great example of how NOT to do things, and something to keep prominently in your mind while crafting your edit.

So, hopefully EMOTION is something you'll inject into this film, and with it may come a breath of life and hope for the prequels after all.

I've been impressed with everything I've seen on this project up to this point, Trooperman. So, I'm more than confident you'll pull it off.

Author: MTHaslett
Time: 15-Nov-2005 1:36 PM
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Infodroid--
Good points. Episode II seems to have the material it needs to be transformed robotic to emotional -- it was clearly meant to be an emotional story. Dialogue, editing, performance, music-- a whole list of things undermine what was a pretty good idea.

I think the story was supposed to be: Anakin grows in power, but emotionally feels drawn back to his mother-- in fact he feels her suffering. But as a Jedi, he's restrained from acting on these feelings and it eats him up worse than any Jedi before because he KNOWS he's right. He gets thrown together with the girl of his dreams and she tips the scales-- he faces too much temptation to remain a chaste Jedi. He reaches out to her and then dashes off to get his mom. But because he is too late, his mother dies in his arms and his Jedi faith is shattered. He resents his master for making mom die-- then he finds out his master is in trouble. He doesn't even want to go save the guy -- but the girl makes him. They end up in a deadly trap, but it's the right thing to do. Then he loses the girl and wants to throw it all away for her-- until he remembers that she wouldn't do that or want that. He stays the course...

But then comes the one beat that I don't understand yet and that needs to be brought into the fold.

Why does he rush in to attack Dukoo? It doesn't come from anything we've seen (except a general lack of discipline). It nearly costs him everything and it throws the whole story off.

Does he still rush in? I don't think so-- but even so this part of the story lacks weight when it comes to Anakin. What is he demonstrating/learning/or being challenged by here? Any ideas?

I think there's something important about solving this. Making the climax feel important to the Anakin story would be incredible. Right now, the story for him kind of ends when he decides to leave Padme and face his duty.