What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion. — Page 11

fmalover said:

The problem is that dialog between Owen and Beru suggests they were well acquainted with Anakin, but AotC reveals that they only met once and barely had any interaction at all, making their concerns about Luke being like his father odd.

Like I said, I think the PT paints a different picture than what you might think, but not one that actually contradicts anything.
Owen is concerned in that scene, while Beru doesn’t seem as concerned or concerned at all by the comparison. Which could fit with what they both took away from what they could glean transpired to allow Anakin to get his mother back. They also briefly met his wife, and also spent years with his mother who we know talked about him, Owen says so. They would know that he was a good but intense man who may or may not have fought his way through a horde of Tuskens to rescue his mother.
They also know that either Luke’s father is dead, or that he is Vader (highly unlikely), so either way, being a Jedi ended poorly for him.

Archivist99 said:

fmalover said:

The problem is that dialog between Owen and Beru suggests they were well acquainted with Anakin, but AotC reveals that they only met once and barely had any interaction at all, making their concerns about Luke being like his father odd.

Like I said, I think the PT paints a different picture than what you might think, but not one that actually contradicts anything.
Owen is concerned in that scene, while Beru doesn’t seem as concerned or concerned at all by the comparison. Which could fit with what they both took away from what they could glean transpired to allow Anakin to get his mother back. They also briefly met his wife, and also spent years with his mother who we know talked about him, Owen says so. They would know that he was a good but intense man who may or may not have fought his way through a horde of Tuskens to rescue his mother.
They also know that either Luke’s father is dead, or that he is Vader (highly unlikely), so either way, being a Jedi ended poorly for him.

Furthermore Obi-Wan tells Luke Owen and Anakin strongly disagreed on matters. How would Owen know anything about Anakin’s convictions if he barely said “hello” to him?

fmalover said:

Archivist99 said:

fmalover said:

The problem is that dialog between Owen and Beru suggests they were well acquainted with Anakin, but AotC reveals that they only met once and barely had any interaction at all, making their concerns about Luke being like his father odd.

Like I said, I think the PT paints a different picture than what you might think, but not one that actually contradicts anything.
Owen is concerned in that scene, while Beru doesn’t seem as concerned or concerned at all by the comparison. Which could fit with what they both took away from what they could glean transpired to allow Anakin to get his mother back. They also briefly met his wife, and also spent years with his mother who we know talked about him, Owen says so. They would know that he was a good but intense man who may or may not have fought his way through a horde of Tuskens to rescue his mother.
They also know that either Luke’s father is dead, or that he is Vader (highly unlikely), so either way, being a Jedi ended poorly for him.

Furthermore Obi-Wan tells Luke Owen and Anakin strongly disagreed on matters. How would Owen know anything about Anakin’s convictions if he barely said “hello” to him?

“Didn’t hold with your father’s ideals thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved” and “wouldn’t allow the lightsaber to be given idealistic crusade etc” are the only lines I remember given, and they are both easy. Owen is a practical man, a family legacy farmer. Anakin going off to be a Jedi ultimately left his mother alone, and got him (and her in a way) killed. He doesn’t say “convictions” he says “ideals” meaning the Jedi way, the fool idealistic crusade way. Ultimately the Jedi all got wiped out for their crusade, so why would Owen let Luke down that path?

We don’t need to see Obi Wan and Owen discussing the above quotes in the PT, it is fine that we hear them in Episode 4. It’s all one story.

Archivist99 said:

fmalover said:

Archivist99 said:

fmalover said:

The problem is that dialog between Owen and Beru suggests they were well acquainted with Anakin, but AotC reveals that they only met once and barely had any interaction at all, making their concerns about Luke being like his father odd.

Like I said, I think the PT paints a different picture than what you might think, but not one that actually contradicts anything.
Owen is concerned in that scene, while Beru doesn’t seem as concerned or concerned at all by the comparison. Which could fit with what they both took away from what they could glean transpired to allow Anakin to get his mother back. They also briefly met his wife, and also spent years with his mother who we know talked about him, Owen says so. They would know that he was a good but intense man who may or may not have fought his way through a horde of Tuskens to rescue his mother.
They also know that either Luke’s father is dead, or that he is Vader (highly unlikely), so either way, being a Jedi ended poorly for him.

Furthermore Obi-Wan tells Luke Owen and Anakin strongly disagreed on matters. How would Owen know anything about Anakin’s convictions if he barely said “hello” to him?

“Didn’t hold with your father’s ideals thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved” and “wouldn’t allow the lightsaber to be given idealistic crusade etc” are the only lines I remember given, and they are both easy. Owen is a practical man, a family legacy farmer. Anakin going off to be a Jedi ultimately left his mother alone, and got him (and her in a way) killed. He doesn’t say “convictions” he says “ideals” meaning the Jedi way, the fool idealistic crusade way. Ultimately the Jedi all got wiped out for their crusade, so why would Owen let Luke down that path?

We don’t need to see Obi Wan and Owen discussing the above quotes in the PT, it is fine that we hear them in Episode 4. It’s all one story.

My issue is yoda says luke is reckless and obi wan says so was I if you remember the relationship is vastly different sounding from the prequel presentation with this dialogue in mind. The took upon myself bothers me because it seems like he felt obligated because of qui gon not because he actually took it upon himself. qui gon as great of a character as he is being the most ideal Jedi but he makes obi wan a complete liar. I can accept some of his lies as protecting Luke or if you had one the deleted scenes restored the father revelation was kept from him because of yoda.

Fullmetaled said:

Archivist99 said:

fmalover said:

Archivist99 said:

fmalover said:

The problem is that dialog between Owen and Beru suggests they were well acquainted with Anakin, but AotC reveals that they only met once and barely had any interaction at all, making their concerns about Luke being like his father odd.

Like I said, I think the PT paints a different picture than what you might think, but not one that actually contradicts anything.
Owen is concerned in that scene, while Beru doesn’t seem as concerned or concerned at all by the comparison. Which could fit with what they both took away from what they could glean transpired to allow Anakin to get his mother back. They also briefly met his wife, and also spent years with his mother who we know talked about him, Owen says so. They would know that he was a good but intense man who may or may not have fought his way through a horde of Tuskens to rescue his mother.
They also know that either Luke’s father is dead, or that he is Vader (highly unlikely), so either way, being a Jedi ended poorly for him.

Furthermore Obi-Wan tells Luke Owen and Anakin strongly disagreed on matters. How would Owen know anything about Anakin’s convictions if he barely said “hello” to him?

“Didn’t hold with your father’s ideals thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved” and “wouldn’t allow the lightsaber to be given idealistic crusade etc” are the only lines I remember given, and they are both easy. Owen is a practical man, a family legacy farmer. Anakin going off to be a Jedi ultimately left his mother alone, and got him (and her in a way) killed. He doesn’t say “convictions” he says “ideals” meaning the Jedi way, the fool idealistic crusade way. Ultimately the Jedi all got wiped out for their crusade, so why would Owen let Luke down that path?

We don’t need to see Obi Wan and Owen discussing the above quotes in the PT, it is fine that we hear them in Episode 4. It’s all one story.

My issue is yoda says luke is reckless and obi wan says so was I if you remember the relationship is vastly different sounding from the prequel presentation with this dialogue in mind. The took upon myself bothers me because it seems like he felt obligated because of qui gon not because he actually took it upon himself. qui gon as great of a character as he is being the most ideal Jedi but he makes obi wan a complete liar. I can accept some of his lies as protecting Luke or if you had one the deleted scenes restored the father revelation was kept from him because of yoda.

Well I’m not arguing that the lines given in the OT are what Lucas had planned for a PT, just that they all pretty much technically don’t break anything. Obi Wan displays reckless behavior in the PT, which probably didn’t begin in adulthood. Telling Yoda he’ll train Anakin without the approval of the council comes to mind.
I don’t think Qui Gon existing makes Obi Wan a liar, he just simplified his story. “I decided to train Anakin and thought i’d be better at it than I was”.

Archivist99 said:

Fullmetaled said:

Archivist99 said:

fmalover said:

Archivist99 said:

fmalover said:

The problem is that dialog between Owen and Beru suggests they were well acquainted with Anakin, but AotC reveals that they only met once and barely had any interaction at all, making their concerns about Luke being like his father odd.

Like I said, I think the PT paints a different picture than what you might think, but not one that actually contradicts anything.
Owen is concerned in that scene, while Beru doesn’t seem as concerned or concerned at all by the comparison. Which could fit with what they both took away from what they could glean transpired to allow Anakin to get his mother back. They also briefly met his wife, and also spent years with his mother who we know talked about him, Owen says so. They would know that he was a good but intense man who may or may not have fought his way through a horde of Tuskens to rescue his mother.
They also know that either Luke’s father is dead, or that he is Vader (highly unlikely), so either way, being a Jedi ended poorly for him.

Furthermore Obi-Wan tells Luke Owen and Anakin strongly disagreed on matters. How would Owen know anything about Anakin’s convictions if he barely said “hello” to him?

“Didn’t hold with your father’s ideals thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved” and “wouldn’t allow the lightsaber to be given idealistic crusade etc” are the only lines I remember given, and they are both easy. Owen is a practical man, a family legacy farmer. Anakin going off to be a Jedi ultimately left his mother alone, and got him (and her in a way) killed. He doesn’t say “convictions” he says “ideals” meaning the Jedi way, the fool idealistic crusade way. Ultimately the Jedi all got wiped out for their crusade, so why would Owen let Luke down that path?

We don’t need to see Obi Wan and Owen discussing the above quotes in the PT, it is fine that we hear them in Episode 4. It’s all one story.

My issue is yoda says luke is reckless and obi wan says so was I if you remember the relationship is vastly different sounding from the prequel presentation with this dialogue in mind. The took upon myself bothers me because it seems like he felt obligated because of qui gon not because he actually took it upon himself. qui gon as great of a character as he is being the most ideal Jedi but he makes obi wan a complete liar. I can accept some of his lies as protecting Luke or if you had one the deleted scenes restored the father revelation was kept from him because of yoda.

Well I’m not arguing that the lines given in the OT are what Lucas had planned for a PT, just that they all pretty much technically don’t break anything. Obi Wan displays reckless behavior in the PT, which probably didn’t begin in adulthood. Telling Yoda he’ll train Anakin without the approval of the council comes to mind.
I don’t think Qui Gon existing makes Obi Wan a liar, he just simplified his story. “I decided to train Anakin and thought i’d be better at it than I was”.

So how much continuity issues can be waved away like this then and what would need tweaking?

G&G-Fan said:

Archivist99 said:

I just watched the arm scene. It wasn’t primarily calculating IMO. He was going to end the battle before, then Luke gets in a good hit, then Vader has an incoherent yell of rage and cuts his hand off.

Yes, he uses his anger. For a calculated act to end the conflict with Luke. That’s what I mean, he wields his anger like a blunt weapon.

And while the choking of an officer might be making a point, it is still quite hotheaded. Imagine if Tarkin choked out that same guy if that guy called him frail or something in a meeting.

The guy was insulting his power in the force and so he showed it to him.

Also I could totally imagine Tarkin doing that.

Villains attack their underlings to show their strength all the time. Like Gus killing Victor in Breaking Bad. Gus may be mad but he remains collected and cold.

And that’s the difference. They use their anger with cunning in a way that always furthers their interests.

Well I think the thing is, the dry wit that he displays in the PT would only congeal into the nastiness of Vader after he gives himself to the dark. I think of moments like “If you’ll excuse me!” or “I say patience.” as the kind of humor that would become nastier in Vader.

“I say patience” was not a joke.

You make a fair point about his sense of humor. I think the disconnect comes from the fact that he never jokes in a way that asserts dominance over another person. “We would be honored, if you would join us.” is such an awesome and funny line because he’s dryly lording over Han, gloating that he has them trapped. It’s such a great showcase of his wit.

The mature Vader persona of the OT isn’t yet complete in the PT, we are left to fill in the gap from freshly traumatized ex Jedi to comfortable middle aged Sith lord. Which i’m fine with, but I think some fans are not. This is also why I think the volatile, “whiny” nature of his PT character isn’t incongruent, Vader in the OT and the Sith in general are basically what happens when you just let your worst, immature impulses take the wheel. Don’t like this underling? Kill him. Don’t like Obi Wan reminding you of the past? Kill him. Don’t like the Rebels pooping on your party? Kill them all.

That’s the issue. The audience is forced to head canon 20 years of character development instead of just having Anakin be more like Vader.

I don’t even mind a younger Vader being a bit more emotional. He is that way in the 2017 Marvel comics by Charles Soule and I love his characterization in that series. But he’s still mostly cold and never explodes.

I agree that the Sith are about giving into their worst impulses, but if they constantly let their anger overcome them and stab themselves in the foot they wouldn’t get very far.

People say this, but I disagree. Going off that scene, Anakin clearly has a pretty clear understanding of the Sith ideology (as taught by the Jedi at least). If the Jedi are about letting go, the Sith are about holding on, so holding onto your life in perpetuity seems like something a Sith would attempt.

That should’ve been explored in the movie itself. We know the Sith attempted to cheat death from EU novels but not the film. And I’m talking about something other then Palpatine’s words which for all we know could be lies. Maybe Anakin even finds a Sith holocron Plagueis created that teaches the power but he can’t open it until he indulges enough in the dark side. So he opens others and learns the ways of the dark side, gradually being seduced by it’s power.

IMO, Tarkin wouldn’t do that, those Vader moments were hot headed (the gus comparison is different, Gus was trying to frighten his enemies in a setting where they had no status, Vader is basically throwing a punch in a CEO earnings report). Plus, part of what you’re describing, even if I agreed with it, would just be age. a 19/22 year old isn’t going to be as level headed as a 45 year old.
I say patience was indeed a joke, self deprecating humor about the fact that he is usually the impatient one. Pre dark side, I don’t see why Anakin’s humor would be obnoxiously dominance based.
Is headcanon out of the norm for this series though? Every movie in it jumps years ahead and has us infer character change.
The Sith usually don’t get very far, that’s what the rule of two is for, trying to cope with the problem of them all killing each other all the time.
Palpatine’s words could be lies, but at this point Anakin trusts the man, and his story aligns with how the Sith crave power and never “let go” like the Jedi do. And once Palp reveals himself as a Sith, it follows that even if he doesn’t know that power, he surely craves it.

Fullmetaled said:

Archivist99 said:

Fullmetaled said:

Archivist99 said:

fmalover said:

Archivist99 said:

fmalover said:

The problem is that dialog between Owen and Beru suggests they were well acquainted with Anakin, but AotC reveals that they only met once and barely had any interaction at all, making their concerns about Luke being like his father odd.

Like I said, I think the PT paints a different picture than what you might think, but not one that actually contradicts anything.
Owen is concerned in that scene, while Beru doesn’t seem as concerned or concerned at all by the comparison. Which could fit with what they both took away from what they could glean transpired to allow Anakin to get his mother back. They also briefly met his wife, and also spent years with his mother who we know talked about him, Owen says so. They would know that he was a good but intense man who may or may not have fought his way through a horde of Tuskens to rescue his mother.
They also know that either Luke’s father is dead, or that he is Vader (highly unlikely), so either way, being a Jedi ended poorly for him.

Furthermore Obi-Wan tells Luke Owen and Anakin strongly disagreed on matters. How would Owen know anything about Anakin’s convictions if he barely said “hello” to him?

“Didn’t hold with your father’s ideals thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved” and “wouldn’t allow the lightsaber to be given idealistic crusade etc” are the only lines I remember given, and they are both easy. Owen is a practical man, a family legacy farmer. Anakin going off to be a Jedi ultimately left his mother alone, and got him (and her in a way) killed. He doesn’t say “convictions” he says “ideals” meaning the Jedi way, the fool idealistic crusade way. Ultimately the Jedi all got wiped out for their crusade, so why would Owen let Luke down that path?

We don’t need to see Obi Wan and Owen discussing the above quotes in the PT, it is fine that we hear them in Episode 4. It’s all one story.

My issue is yoda says luke is reckless and obi wan says so was I if you remember the relationship is vastly different sounding from the prequel presentation with this dialogue in mind. The took upon myself bothers me because it seems like he felt obligated because of qui gon not because he actually took it upon himself. qui gon as great of a character as he is being the most ideal Jedi but he makes obi wan a complete liar. I can accept some of his lies as protecting Luke or if you had one the deleted scenes restored the father revelation was kept from him because of yoda.

Well I’m not arguing that the lines given in the OT are what Lucas had planned for a PT, just that they all pretty much technically don’t break anything. Obi Wan displays reckless behavior in the PT, which probably didn’t begin in adulthood. Telling Yoda he’ll train Anakin without the approval of the council comes to mind.
I don’t think Qui Gon existing makes Obi Wan a liar, he just simplified his story. “I decided to train Anakin and thought i’d be better at it than I was”.

So how much continuity issues can be waved away like this then and what would need tweaking?

Really the only thing that sticks out to me off the top of my head is Leia remembering her mother but Luke not. You COULD make that work through handwave-y “Leia is more sensitive to others’ presence in the force (as arguably seen through the OT) than Luke, so an infant force memory combined with Bail possibly talking about and showing her pictures and videos of Padme could account for why Luke doesn’t remember but she does…”

BUT, that is far too tortured and Lucas really just decided to allow that to be an error for the sake of a tighter final act that doesn’t involve watching Padme die on Alderaan with Leia some time after she gives birth (which I believe was the plan at one point IIRC).

I don’t know, I was just watching Empire Strikes Back the other day, and actually it’s pretty surprising how calm and reserved Vader is most of the time. In A New Hope Vader loses his temper once, in the very first scene, when he’s like “Tear the ship apart and bring me the plans!” or whatever. But in Empire he’s very subdued. He never loses his temper - he just calmly kills you when he feels you’re under-performing. The closest he comes to sounding angry is when he says to Ozzel “You have failed me for the last time, Admiral”, but in fact he barely even raises his voice when saying this. He just wants Ozzel to shut up so he can tell Piett the plan going forward. He comes off as ruthlessly efficient, which goes along with his “half-machine” persona.

Sometimes Vader sounds a bit impatient - it’s kind of funny when some Officer has to bother him when he’s inside that meditation chamber, and Vader is like “What is it, General?” You can hear slight impatience in his voice. But he never rages or loses his temper. He’s the complete opposite of Kylo Ren. And definitely way more subdued than Anakin, who was constantly flipping out in both Episode 2 and 3. We can make excuses for this personality difference by saying that over the years Vader became more mature as a Sith and learned to channel his anger in more constructive ways or whatever, but honestly the reality is that Anakin’s portrayal just kind of sucks.

Also of interest to continuity is that Vader is slightly different in A New Hope because he essentially was a different character at that time. He was written as more of a generic villain who killed Luke’s dad. It was only with Empire that Vader became a more complex character, and his personality changed slightly to reflect that. But the difference between Episode 4 Vader and Episode 5 Vader is barely even noticeable compared to Prequel Anakin versus OT Vader.

Superweapon VII said:

You can see this contrast more clearly when you compare Leigh Brackett’s TESB draft with the final film.

Yeah - isn’t Vader still separate from Luke’s father in Brackett’s version?

fmalover said:
How would Owen know anything about Anakin’s convictions if he barely said “hello” to him.

He could have overheard Anakin shouting about the women and children he killed I guess.

Mocata said:

fmalover said:
How would Owen know anything about Anakin’s convictions if he barely said “hello” to him.

He could have overheard Anakin shouting about the women and children he killed I guess.

Your comment made me chuckle.

What can I say, sound probably travels in that little dome they all live in.

G&G-Fan said:

Archivist99 said:

IMO, Tarkin wouldn’t do that, those Vader moments were hot headed (the gus comparison is different, Gus was trying to frighten his enemies in a setting where they had no status, Vader is basically throwing a punch in a CEO earnings report). Plus, part of what you’re describing, even if I agreed with it, would just be age. a 19/22 year old isn’t going to be as level headed as a 45 year old.

I could. Tarkin blows up a planet.
Vader is far above Motti in rank. Vader had more power in that scene then Gus. Gus needed Walter to cook. Vader needs Motti for nothing. He’s a fodder officer.
And once again the point of the scene was that Vader was trying to intimidate Motti by showcasing his power.

I just don’t agree. Blowing up a planet is more what you are describing, evil but calculated. As for the board room scene, I disagree. Those guys seem like some of the biggest guys in the Empire, given the discussion. Vader personally might have no use for Motti, but Tarkin clearly does.

Michael Corleone was 25 in Part 1. It’s not unreasonable for someone to be cold when they’re that young. I’ll forever maintain that one of the biggest mistakes of the prequels was Anakin being so young for 2/3 of it. His age in the three movies should’ve been the same as Luke’s respectively.

Micheal Corleone also had a very different childhood. Anakin was the slave son of a single mother, Michael was the child of a powerful family. Your idea of Anakin being like Michael Corleone doesn’t really jive with anything i’d want for the character. Also, Corleone isn’t really anything like what you seem like you wish Anakin was, either. I haven’t seen those movies in a while, but Michael doesn’t really have the Vader traits that you have mentioned before, other than being less hair trigger than Anakin in the films. Also, when we do see Michael more at Vader’s age in Godfather 3, he has mellowed out, not gotten nastier.
I also would not change Anakin’s ages in the films. The story is about Anakin’s insecurities being the cause of his issues. Luke’s struggles were lesser by design as the story isn’t about Luke turning evil.

I say patience was indeed a joke, self deprecating humor about the fact that he is usually the impatient one. Pre dark side, I don’t see why Anakin’s humor would be obnoxiously dominance based.

Because that’s who he is as a person? He loves being dominant and in control. Superiority complex and all.

That isn’t who he tries to be though. “I want more, but I know I shouldn’t”. That side of himself only truly comes out once he stops trying to fight it. He’s arrogant, but he is also aware that a lot of his thoughts are problematic and tries to rise above them. Until he doesn’t.

Is headcanon out of the norm for this series though? Every movie in it jumps years ahead and has us infer character change.

Well yeah, but there’s a certain degree to which it’s believable.

It’s less drastic than Luke between 5 and 6 honestly.

The Sith usually don’t get very far, that’s what the rule of two is for, trying to cope with the problem of them all killing each other all the time.

Vader and Palpatine did.

Because of the rule of two, as well as the fact that Sidious who is rather exceptional as a Sith who is very much a long term planner, allowed Vader to flourish in a locked down galaxy that is perfect for a violent broken man like Vader.

Palpatine’s words could be lies, but at this point Anakin trusts the man, and his story aligns with how the Sith crave power and never “let go” like the Jedi do. And once Palp reveals himself as a Sith, it follows that even if he doesn’t know that power, he surely craves it.

Good point about Palpatine craving it too. But whether he craves it is different from whether the power actually exists and whether the dark side is a path to it.

Of course, and that’s part of the horrible situation that Anakin finds himself in. But he already sold out Palp to the Jedi and tried to do the right thing once. He makes his choice in the scene in the council chambers to side with Palp rather than do the right thing for the second time.

Channel72 said:

Sometimes Vader sounds a bit impatient - it’s kind of funny when some Officer has to bother him when he’s inside that meditation chamber, and Vader is like “What is it, General?” You can hear slight impatience in his voice. But he never rages or loses his temper. He’s the complete opposite of Kylo Ren. And definitely way more subdued than Anakin, who was constantly flipping out in both Episode 2 and 3. We can make excuses for this personality difference by saying that over the years Vader became more mature as a Sith and learned to channel his anger in more constructive ways or whatever, but honestly the reality is that Anakin’s portrayal just kind of sucks.

What makes you say that last line? Why wouldn’t ruling the galaxy for 20 years, having settled into your choice to take wrong path lead to a less “flipping out” personality? The “flipping out” was all due to his internal struggle between his better angels (Obi Wan) and the devil in his ear/his baser desires (Palpatine). The struggle is over after he ends the Jedi and loses Padme. He has nothing left but his delusions about bringing order to the galaxy and overthrowing Palpatine (both of which he tries to sell Luke on, and neither of which involve turning away from the Sith path).

One telling moment for me is when Anakin tries to “reason” with Obi Wan one last time, and Obi Wan just tells him he is lost. When Anakin says “This is the end for you, my master” that is pure Vader. Monotone, emotions tamped down, the whole bit. My point being, Vader is the side of Anakin that lives in denial. Anakin starts to come back in Return of The Jedi, and for my money, the man that Luke starts getting through to acts exactly like Hayden.

G&G-Fan said:

Archivist99 said:

I just don’t agree. Blowing up a planet is more what you are describing, evil but calculated. As for the board room scene, I disagree. Those guys seem like some of the biggest guys in the Empire, given the discussion. Vader personally might have no use for Motti, but Tarkin clearly does.

Vader is second in-command. Literally the only person that supersedes him in rank is the Emperor.

Whatever. Agree to disagree on this issue.

Micheal Corleone also had a very different childhood. Anakin was the slave son of a single mother, Michael was the child of a powerful family. Your idea of Anakin being like Michael Corleone doesn’t really jive with anything i’d want for the character. Also, Corleone isn’t really anything like what you seem like you wish Anakin was, either. I haven’t seen those movies in a while, but Michael doesn’t really have the Vader traits that you have mentioned before, other than being less hair trigger than Anakin in the films.

Anakin’s past was worse then Michael’s, therefore he has more of a reason to have a colder, hardened personality. He was a slave. He represses his emotions because he has to look tough to hide the fact that on the inside he’s an emotional mess.

He was a slave, but he was the only child of an exemplary mother. There is a warmth there (and part of losing that warmth at 9 is what goes wrong). Michael was the youngest (?) child of a crime lord.
Anakin doesn’t act tough by repressing as much as by having a standoffish/confident quality, which is well needed given the people he hangs around. Sebulba, Watto, various scumbags like that. He’s not going to be “reserved”, he is going to puff out his chest. Michael by contrast, could lay low and observe in the shadow of privilege. He’s reserved because he can afford to be.

That’s the thing that’s so weird to me. Anakin’s supposed to be this guy that represses his emotions, but instead he’ll go on long emotional rants to the first person who will listen. His second conversation with Padme he’s ranting about Obi-Wan when she didn’t even ask.

“Supposed to”, according to who? He represses certain destructive instincts, but when it comes to communicating, again, he is very forward.

Also Michael was in the military and was desensitized to his family’s business since he grew up around them, which is part of why he’s so cold.

Michael Corleone is so much like Darth Vader it’s crazy. He’s cold, collected, calculating, ruthless, reserved, confident, authoritative, possessive, and loves revenge and getting back at people he hates. And his anger is a lot like Vader’s. Michael does lose his cool sometimes, but it’s in a lot of the same way Vader would: short bursts. He will yell when he’s extremely stressed, like at Tom Hagen when he finds out about the “miscarriage”. Or when he yells about the ambush on his home to Pentangeli. A lot like Vader barking at his troops in the beginning of ANH.

But if he is already like Vader before the turn it is a boring, predictable story that doesn’t involve interesting character change. What you are suggesting is what JJ Abrams would have done. Basically the cliche Clone Wars version of Anakin, except nastier.
Plus, as I said, I do not agree that Michael even is what you are describing. He is a short, quiet man who occasionally gets coldly angry. All those other things you described are not within him the same way they are within Vader. He does all the things that he does not out of an embrace of power and conquest for the nebulous reasons given to Vader in the OT, but out of a loyalty to his father that congeals into a thirst for power, but it never goes as far as Vader and the characters are just too psychologically different. Michael isn’t shooting his commanders in the meeting room then cracking wise about it.
Anakin’s story is the story of a broken child who turns into a deranged serial killer who acts more machine than man.
Michael’s story is the quiet, straight-laced child of a crime family decides to take the path of revenge and becomes more cold and heartless in the name of “the family”. Michael loses much less of his soul than Anakin, hell he still talks to his ex wife and has a somewhat quasi normal (compared to Vader) relationship with his larger family at Vader’s age.
No potential prequel trilogy fits this. Even if you made Anakin more like what you are describing, he would still be a huge hulking man compared to Michael, and one who is much more overtly mean spirited than Michael.

I also would not change Anakin’s ages in the films. The story is about Anakin’s insecurities being the cause of his issues. Luke’s struggles were lesser by design as the story isn’t about Luke turning evil.

You can’t have Anakin be a 19 year old slave who’s mom dies? Then a 22 year old Jedi Knight at the beginning of the second movie (Luke was already a great high ranking rebel soldier at the beginning of ESB) who then descends towards the dark side slowly?

You’re acting like Anakin has to be young to have the same insecurities.

I think the story wouldn’t work nearly as well, no. As I said, Luke’s struggles are lesser due to his story not being about turning into Darth Vader. Also Luke being so high ranking in ESB never made sense to me. The opening crawl of that movie says he is in command of Echo base, for god’s sake.

That isn’t who he tries to be though. “I want more, but I know I shouldn’t”. That side of himself only truly comes out once he stops trying to fight it. He’s arrogant, but he is also aware that a lot of his thoughts are problematic and tries to rise above them. Until he doesn’t.

That’s a good element of the character, but we should see him giving into that more, even if he feels guilty. That need to be dominant and have power should become greater and greater as he loses himself more and more.

That’s exactly what happens.

It’s less drastic than Luke between 5 and 6 honestly.

Nah, because Luke is still a pretty collected guy capable of leading troops at the beginning of ESB. He just has to overcome his recklessness. And he has at the beginning of ROTJ, but not entirely. He still gets himself stuck in the Rancor pit and lashes out at Vader.

It might seem like he’s completely transformed when he first appears but as time goes on it’s pretty obvious he’s still the same guy.

Yeah but how did he overcome his recklessness? He didn’t go back to Yoda, he seemingly didn’t talk to Ben, and Yoda predicted that Luke going to Bespin would be bad for Luke, not lead to character growth. Luke in RotJ is approaching Qui Gon levels of Zen, whereas in ESB he’s still basically a farm boy who went off to war.

Because of the rule of two, as well as the fact that Sidious who is rather exceptional as a Sith who is very much a long term planner, allowed Vader to flourish in a locked down galaxy that is perfect for a violent broken man like Vader.

Regardless, Vader’s anger never gets in the way of the job. Even in ESB when he kills two officers, there’s always someone to take their place.

That’s my point though. It would if he didn’t have such stable surroundings. Heck, he would have killed Motti (?) if Tarkin hadn’t stepped in.

Of course, and that’s part of the horrible situation that Anakin finds himself in. But he already sold out Palp to the Jedi and tried to do the right thing once. He makes his choice in the scene in the council chambers to side with Palp rather than do the right thing for the second time.

The net loss is far too great if it turns out Plagueis’ secret isn’t real. Anakin doesn’t consider that if he commits genocide and even kills his best buddy Obi-Wan, only for Plagueis’ secret to either be lost or not even exist, then there was literally no point to anything.

What, he definitely considers it. When Palp says his whole “I know we can discover the secret” thing, you can see on Anakin’s face that he loses even more hope.

G&G-Fan said:
Broken child? He goes “Yippee!”.

Ah. I’m out.
This comment is indicative of the fact that I am falling on deaf ears, and that you are ignoring the events of the films.
And that’s the strangest thing about the whole “complaining about the PT” community. The movies are literally exactly what you guys want, almost to a tee, especially story wise (CGI heavy aesthetic is a separate issue). The complaints just arise from not paying attention to the films…
You would have twice the amount of movies to like if you actually just took them as they are.
It’s very clear that while he is a slave, his mother gives him a certain level of peace. Once he leaves her, is where he starts to break apart (and of course we see that he has a chip on his shoulder about being slave as well, that informs his later life).
It’s also why him being 19 when he leaves wouldn’t be the same, that’s the age to leave the nest anyway.
Don’t reply with more counterpoints, i’m not going to look at them. Because you don’t even attempt to look at the films honestly.