What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion. — Page 10

G&G-Fan said:

Bro really just hated on Buddhism, that’s kinda racist

Also if you actually took the time to learn the Buddhist principle of non-attachment you’d learn it’s basic common sense.

“The Buddhist concept of non-attachment is a constructive way to approach relationships. Here, attachment refers to an attempt to control things that you can’t control. When you try to grasp or control something outside of yourself, this causes suffering for yourself and the other person.”

The problem is that the prequels conflate attachment with any kind of close relationship. Anakin falling in love with Padme is treated as inherently wrong.

This might be an unpopular opinion, but the whole idea of Jedi compassion where they “love everybody in a non-attached way” isn’t that great. It goes against human nature. If you try to love everybody in the world equally, you end up with a very shallow form of love.

I never liked the Prequel Jedi doctrine forbidding romantic relationships. For one thing, nothing in Star Wars before the Prequels ever suggested this idea. Sure, in Empire Strikes Back Yoda tells Luke that his Jedi training is more important than loyalty to his friends. But these were dire circumstances. We can’t extrapolate from this that official Jedi doctrine forbade romantic attachments. I mean certainly not after Mara Jade showed up. (I know that wasn’t Lucas, but whatever).

The Jedi order was originally suggested to be something like a cross between mythologized versions of Samurai and Arthurian Knights - an order of elite warriors committed to serving the Republic. With the introduction of Yoda in Empire Strikes Back, the original warrior/soldier Kurosawa stuff (“General Kenobi in the clone wars”) was downplayed in favor of an emphasis on meditation and self-defense. Elements of Taoism, Zen Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism were mixed in. But even though some forms of monastic Buddhism have traditions of celibacy, this isn’t mandated, and there was nothing in Star Wars to suggest it anyway. Of all Anakin’s sins, it was never suggested that getting married and having children was one of them.

The attachment thing and keeping him from his mother should have been the reason he turned on the Jedi. Also a desire for justice, the Jedi didn’t care about the slaves. And his desiring power. Anakin wants the power to dominate life and the lives of others, and to maintain order through force. He aligns with Palpatine because they agree the Empire is the way to balance chaos. Obi-Wan doesn’t agree he trusts the people and believes in Democracy. He becomes an enemy of the new order.

Join the darkside to save Padme is just idiotic.

SparkySywer said:

I absolutely subscribe to the idea that the original plans for the trilogy before 1999 were going to have Episodes 2 and 3 go in a wildly different direction.

Could you elaborate upon this further, or recommend something to read/watch about it? I’ve never heard about this, but I’m very interested in textual criticism, so to speak, of the series.

I just wonder if the whole concept of ‘cute 9 year-old transitioning into evil warlord’ was too much for Star Wars to handle whilst keeping things family friendly. It’s one thing to have it all implied in the OT, but it’s another thing to actually attempt to depict it.
For example my other favourite movie, Conan the Barbarian, does it perfectly. Conan, as a 9 year-old, sees his parents and kin slaughtered by an evil cult, is thrown into slavery (real slavery, not the suburban TPM version!), then sold into gladiatorial combat before being freed as an adult. Throughout this experience he is entirely driven by vengeance. There’s your Anakin. There’s a guy who legitimately could become Darth Vader. If Obi Wan had met that guy on Tatooine and they’d established a friendship, and then Anakin had been forced to choose between revenge and Jedi pacifism (maybe the guy who had slaughtered his parents had seen the light and become a Jedi Master for example), right there you’d have the perfect catalyst for a clash of ideals between legitimate friends/allies. But it would be dark stuff…

Shopping Maul said:

I just wonder if the whole concept of ‘cute 9 year-old transitioning into evil warlord’ was too much for Star Wars to handle whilst keeping things family friendly. It’s one thing to have it all implied in the OT, but it’s another thing to actually attempt to depict it.
For example my other favourite movie, Conan the Barbarian, does it perfectly. Conan, as a 9 year-old, sees his parents and kin slaughtered by an evil cult, is thrown into slavery (real slavery, not the suburban TPM version!), then sold into gladiatorial combat before being freed as an adult. Throughout this experience he is entirely driven by vengeance. There’s your Anakin. There’s a guy who legitimately could become Darth Vader. If Obi Wan had met that guy on Tatooine and they’d established a friendship, and then Anakin had been forced to choose between revenge and Jedi pacifism (maybe the guy who had slaughtered his parents had seen the light and become a Jedi Master for example), right there you’d have the perfect catalyst for a clash of ideals between legitimate friends/allies. But it would be dark stuff…

Making a movie aimed at children with dark elements is something nobody seems willing to do these days. The Neverending Story and The Dark Crystal are examples that come to mind. Those movies wouldn’t get made today.

Superweapon VII said:

fmalover said:

Shopping Maul said:

I just wonder if the whole concept of ‘cute 9 year-old transitioning into evil warlord’ was too much for Star Wars to handle whilst keeping things family friendly. It’s one thing to have it all implied in the OT, but it’s another thing to actually attempt to depict it.
For example my other favourite movie, Conan the Barbarian, does it perfectly. Conan, as a 9 year-old, sees his parents and kin slaughtered by an evil cult, is thrown into slavery (real slavery, not the suburban TPM version!), then sold into gladiatorial combat before being freed as an adult. Throughout this experience he is entirely driven by vengeance. There’s your Anakin. There’s a guy who legitimately could become Darth Vader. If Obi Wan had met that guy on Tatooine and they’d established a friendship, and then Anakin had been forced to choose between revenge and Jedi pacifism (maybe the guy who had slaughtered his parents had seen the light and become a Jedi Master for example), right there you’d have the perfect catalyst for a clash of ideals between legitimate friends/allies. But it would be dark stuff…

Making a movie aimed at children with dark elements is something nobody seems willing to do these days. The Neverending Story and The Dark Crystal are examples that come to mind. Those movies wouldn’t get made today.

What you get when the Helen Lovejoys of the world make the rules. Which is why I’m adamant on introducing any kids I have to horror and softcore porn before they hit double-digits.

I like your style.

I think you mean Don Plagueis the Wiseguy.

But the best is definitely when Michael Corleone and Hyman Roth fight to the death in a lava-filled casino. Fortunately, Roth loses the high ground and then doesn’t live to see the New Year.

I’ve only made an account here to post a thread elsewhere, but since i’m here I might as well chime in.

I think the PT is equally well/poorly made as the other 3 films Lucas has directed (not talking about the OT, but Lucas himself).
But mostly I’ve read this thread and just want to comment that I think that Anakin as a character was one of the very best parts, and that he has a lot more in common with Vader than some people here are saying. Vader wasn’t a hothead? In the OT, he chokes people in a board meeting, flies off the handle and amputates his own son after said son scores a good hit, etc.
Anakin also has plenty of dry humor in the prequels.
He’s bold, very bold. Look at the fireplace scene. Look at him in battle. Bold in words and actions.
He’s also very developing a domineering and presenceful (word?) aspect post youngling slaughter when he talks to Padme (which makes sense as the dark side is starting to rule him).
He’s also much smarter than people give him credit for (but that could be a whole nother post).
But my main thing about Anakin in the PT and Vader in the OT is that to me, Vader in RotJ feels more like Hayden than the preceding two films. I think Lucas had nailed down more of the man behind the mask for that film (since the mask was coming off, literally and metaphorically).

But no, Hayden never did put his hands in his belt buckle the way Vader did.

Also, I’m mostly responding to a post a few pages back, the quote function was giving me trouble.

Mocata said:

The idea that Qui-gon would have been a true mentor, and that whole Dual of the Fates thing, seems like an attempt to make TPM more interesting than it is. At best John Williams, as usual, was trying hard to elevate the material.

What makes you think that wasn’t intended by George? Filoni claims it is, and he spent a decade with the man.

“Vader gets mad, but he never flies off the handle. He wields his anger like a blunt weapon. Vader chokes an officer to make a point. Amputating his son was a very calculating move to end the conflict swiftly. Vader’s just a much colder person.”

I just watched the arm scene. It wasn’t primarily calculating IMO. He was going to end the battle before, then Luke gets in a good hit, then Vader has an incoherent yell of rage and cuts his hand off.
And while the choking of an officer might be making a point, it is still quite hotheaded. Imagine if Tarkin choked out that same guy if that guy called him frail or something in a meeting.

“I can think of a couple times, sure, but nothing to the degree of, “Apology accepted, Captain Needa”, or “We would be honored if you would join us”.”

Well I think the thing is, the dry wit that he displays in the PT would only congeal into the nastiness of Vader after he gives himself to the dark. I think of moments like “If you’ll excuse me!” or “I say patience.” as the kind of humor that would become nastier in Vader. Interestingly, Stover gave Anakin some snarky Vader-like lines in the novelization when he was killing the Sep council, but I think the movies are structured in such a way that he wouldn’t joke like that yet. The mature Vader persona of the OT isn’t yet complete in the PT, we are left to fill in the gap from freshly traumatized ex Jedi to comfortable middle aged Sith lord. Which i’m fine with, but I think some fans are not. This is also why I think the volatile, “whiny” nature of his PT character isn’t incongruent, Vader in the OT and the Sith in general are basically what happens when you just let your worst, immature impulses take the wheel. Don’t like this underling? Kill him. Don’t like Obi Wan reminding you of the past? Kill him. Don’t like the Rebels pooping on your party? Kill them all.

“He’s smart until he believes Palpatine about saving people from dying.”

People say this, but I disagree. Going off that scene, Anakin clearly has a pretty clear understanding of the Sith ideology (as taught by the Jedi at least). If the Jedi are about letting go, the Sith are about holding on, so holding onto your life in perpetuity seems like something a Sith would attempt.

Can fan edits fix continuity errors with the original trilogy like Owen Lars fearing luke being just like his father, obi wan saying he took it upon himself to train anakin as a Jedi, dialog in empire that sounds like obi wan and yoda’s relationship was master and apprentice even though that wasn’t the case etc.

Fullmetaled said:

Can fan edits fix continuity errors with the original trilogy like Owen Lars fearing luke being just like his father, obi wan saying he took it upon himself to train anakin as a Jedi, dialog in empire that sounds like obi wan and yoda’s relationship was master and apprentice even though that wasn’t the case etc.

Owen fearing Luke would turn out like the man he saw in the prequels, while Beru saw the same man and came away with a less negative impression works perfectly with the PT IMO. Anakin showed a dark side with his rescue of his mother, but he also did a valiant thing (saving his mom).
Beru and Owen are in like 10 minutes of one of the 3 OT movies, and they die offscreen. I’m not sure why some fans think they should have been big players in the backstory.

Obi Wan did take it upon himself to train Anakin as a Jedi. We just also see the events that preceded that.

Yoda did train Obi Wan, from a certain point of view.

The PT outright clashes with almost none of the OT, it merely recontextualizes some lines. But the OT does that to itself all the time as well. The father twist alone mangles Obi Wan’s earlier words much more than the existence of Qui-Gon does.

The problem is that dialog between Owen and Beru suggests they were well acquainted with Anakin, but AotC reveals that they only met once and barely had any interaction at all, making their concerns about Luke being like his father odd. Furthermore Obi-Wan tell Luke Owen and Anakin strongly disagreed on matters. How would Owen know anything about Anakin’s convictions if he barely said “hello” to him.