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Watching in order 1-6 is screwing up the original SW for newcomers! — Page 2

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All I'm saying is that I think AWK is wrong to say that while the prequels are graphically, visually tour de forces, the first movie might as well be an intimate character-based film because the special effects are so sparse.

And just be aware, AWK, that I know I'm exaggerating your point.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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but by the same token, they didn't leave the theatre knowing that almost everything was fake.


yes they did--again, they didn't leave the theater going "oh MAN. that spaceship was cool!" They knew it was ALL fake. They just liked it. now, it's just a different style of fake.

One of the bigger problems with CGI is that everyone wants to show off that they're using it in behind the scenes stuff, promotional docs, all that. The tool is getting as much publicity as the movie is. That didn't necessarily happen back in the 80's--the studio wasn't trying to show off all their toys all that much. They were maxing out old tech and old methodology, not innovating new ones. Once you start re-inventing the wheel as far as effects go, people realized you could appeal to the "Bang for the buck" style of hucksterism and make the effects used part of the marketing. "We made this with a COMPUTER!! BUY A TICKET!!" I guarantee you that if an effects movie was released that didn't go into detail about HOW they made the effects, people would stop being so nitpicky about em. but in todays moviegoing climate, there's no way that happens. you have to have the behind-the-scenes video blogs and the special on the dvd and the hook in the movie magazines.

Which wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't so much overkill, to the point where you effectively TRAINED the audience to become EXPERT effects spotters. the movie is almost secondary at this point, because people are so used to being the reviewer in their little circle of friends, film has become so democratized that everyone really DOES believe they can do better, that people are waiting to find a seam and log it away. And yeah, there were people who did that in the 80's, too, but they were fewer, and largely marginalized, because people didn't really care. Now that the entertainment industry puts as large a premium on the "Behind the scenes" as they do the movies themselves (check out DVD culture) you have a lot more wizened, savvy and unforgiving viewers with their own skew and prejudices regarding the technical aspects of a movie.

It's not so much that CG is bad (largely, most people can't even tell the difference. they think they can, but they usually screw up along the way) but that it's put itself out there as the scapegoat for grumpy nostalgia due to aggressively marketing itself as something more than a simple tool in the toolbox.
The Best Show You've Never Heard
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Not so ironic when you consider that only one person is arguing for the change, and everyone else is just feeding the troll.


It was TPM that introduced me to Star Wars. It was the movie that got me so interested in that world, not ANH. In fact, I never even saw ANH until months after I saw TPM. As an introduction, TPM certainly did its job well. It made me interested in the real star of star wars, Anakin. To me, the older movies don't really tell his story as good as they could have, in my opinion. Plus, at least at first, ANH seemed rather dry compared to TPM and the others. Of course now, I've learned to appreciate it better, and bring it in with the rest of the story. ANH to me just isn't as gripping as it could have been. I mean, the title is ANew Hope.

And, I really don't appreciate being called a troll for explaining my POV on the star wars films. (It's like being told: "You're starting to sound like a separatist.")
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"It was TPM that introduced me to Star Wars. It was the movie that got me so interested..." [SNIP]

None of this comes close to addressing the Tantive issue. If the difference between films of a ship shown for seconds at a time is enough to disturb continuity of the trilogies for you, then it really doesn't matter which film you watched and when.

"And, I really don't appreciate being called a troll for explaining my POV on the star wars films."

And I was just explaining my POV. It's not like anyone's forcing you to come back to these forums to post (though several have forced you off. Imagine that.)

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
"It was TPM that introduced me to Star Wars. It was the movie that got me so interested..." [SNIP]

None of this comes close to addressing the Tantive issue. If the difference between films of a ship shown for seconds at a time is enough to disturb continuity of the trilogies for you, then it really doesn't matter which film you watched and when.

"And, I really don't appreciate being called a troll for explaining my POV on the star wars films."

And I was just explaining my POV. It's not like anyone's forcing you to come back to these forums to post (though several have forced you off. Imagine that.)


I would just love to see the ship look the same in the two movies. And I came back to sort of start new.
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Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
It made me interested in the real star of star wars, Anakin. To me, the older movies don't really tell his story as good as they could have, in my opinion.


The reason the original trilogy doesn't tell Anakin's story as well "as they could have" is because they aren't meant to tell Anakin's story because he's not the "real star of Star Wars." He's the star of the prequels. That's it. The end. I hate this "Anakin is the star" bs propaganda that Lucas is trying to shove down our throats in order to get us to accept the prequel trilogy. *incoherent grumbling*

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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i also cant wrap my head around watching 1-6 without it seeming really disjointed. i wish lucas hadnt made the prequels so one dimensional about anakins wierd attachment issues. also both anh and rotj explain things about the backstory that seem redundant and /or dont exactly jibe with what the prequels showed us. if they tried to match each others look photographically it could work, maybe when they remaster either the prequels or the ot they could do that, i think it would help
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Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
Yes, he was the star. **See ROTJ**


I'm actually in the middle of watching that, and it seems to me it's about the main character trying to convince his father to redeem himself, but maybe that's just me. If Anakin was the star, Retun of the Jedi would be a movie centered around Darth Vader's struggle to decide which way to go, not Luke's struggle to keep from falling to the dark side and fighting his father.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
Well, I'm merely saying that it would tie the two movies together well. The ROTS Tantive IV is a cool looking ship... It's just that so many shots in ANH look quite dated.


ya because its supposed to.... thats how Lucass originally invisioned it....
so his bastardized PT should match the original trilogy..... not the other way around...
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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Luke, don't give in to hate... that leads to the dark side...
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the problem is lucas made the pt to anakin centric, if he hadnt the whole trilogy wouldve been about the clone wars, and anakins turn wouldnt of happened till the very end. but before that he wouldve given us alot of action and humor reminiscent of the ot so one trilogy wouldnt have overwhelmed the other like it does now
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I feel, tough, if he had made it focusing ONLY on the clone wars and Anakin's fall, then it would have lacked the very thing OT purists cherish the most: story. Ironic.
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I'm definitely not saying the prequels shouldn't be focused on Anakin. I think that's right, and the way it should have always been. It's the story of Darth Vader. That's why they exist. But it's jumping into forbidden territory when it tries to claim the original movies too. It simply makes no sense to say that Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi feature Darth Vader as the story's protagonist. If that was the case, they come nowhere near accomplishing their goal. It's obvious they weren't meant to feature him as the main character, from the fact that he's not as prominently featured as Luke/Han/Leia/etc. to his placement in the end credits*.

*Coincidentally, I've always felt that the actor who played Anakin should have received top billing in all three prequels...

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Well, of course not. I don't think Anakin as Vader should have been fesatured in the OT, becuase, as Lucas said himself, "it would be a rather boring story" or something like that. What I meant by it being his story was that, overall, it is about his redemption, and Luke is merely a player in that. Yeah, It's Luke's story, but in the end, Anakin's story is the overall story.

(I do agree with you on Hayden getting first billing as Anakin, I mean, Mark got first billing as Luke!)
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Originally posted by: skyjedi2005
easily remedied, forget the special editions and the prequels, and the 2004 dvd. Watch the real original trilogy the faces or definitive collection transfers on dvd or watch the laserdiscs, problem solved. Too bad we are'nt droids like threepio because we could all use a selective memory wipe to forget the prequels, and fake cgi ruined trilogy.
You said it!
Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Not so ironic when you consider that only one person is arguing for the change, and everyone else is just feeding the troll.

You said it!

War does not make one great.

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Well, I'll have to word this carefully, since I want to avoid my usual argument of "they shouldn't be viewed as one whole story!" thing. But since you posted your view of Star Wars, I simply feel compelled to post mine, that's all, and it's simply impossible to present my view without first stating that I don't believe that all six should be viewed as one single entity. Simply put, for me, Star Wars is about the war between the Rebel Alliance and the Galactic Empire. On a more character-based level, it is the journey of Luke Skywalker to make something of his life, grow, and become responsible for destroying the key players in the Empire and reviving the Jedi ideals to the universe ("Not the last of old, but the first of the new."). And when I look simply at the movies, the original trilogy, or all six, trying to wrap my mind around it being the redemption of Anakin Skywalker leaves a bad taste in my mouth. When you get right down to it, only one movie has anything at all to do with the redemption of Anakin Skywalker, and that's Return of the Jedi. None of the prequels touch on this because, at that point, he has nothing to be redeemed from. And in the original trilogy, you don't even know Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker until the end of Empire. And no other character makes any attempts or has any aspirations to redeem him at that point, nor does he appear to want to himself. Only in Return of the Jedi does Luke come up with the notion of "redeeming" his father.

So, even if you do take all six films as one, complete story, Lucas's "It's the redemption of Anakin Skywalker" story doesn't hold water. That's like summarizing the first Star Wars movie by simply saying, "Star Wars is about blowing up the Death Star." The redemption of Anakin Skywalker is the conclusion of the story, not the story itself.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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The good thing if you disregard the Prequels you can still see it as Luke's story with Anakin's "story" taking a back seat!

And has been said, i am sure it was never Vader's story from the start,he was just the villian to begin with, you can tell that it was about Luke etc and George changed his mind to make it Vader's story.

Though the Prequel story is good and George said "it would be rather boring", Sith is the only official prequel for me that I find entertaining, the others are so boring, may he is right they are supposed to be, The only way I have now found the other two to be entertaining is watching the fan-edited versions of them two Prequels(which by the way does turn TPM into a much better film by ditching the crap, and they thankfully do get rid of the horrendous love dialouge in Clones to make it less painful and in turn better and both less dry)at least the originals were entertaining all the time (to me) while having a story, and for me part of the reason I watch Star Wars movies is to be entertained, if I want to watch something boring I will watch two hours of some foreign arthouse film .




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Originally posted by: Mr Bungle
The good thing if you disregard the Prequels you can still see it as Luke's story with Anakin's "story" taking a back seat!

And has been said, i am sure it was never Vader's story from the start,he was just the villian to begin with, you can tell that it was about Luke etc and George changed his mind to make it Vader's story.

Text


That is exactly how I feel now, and this is how I view the saga, and it is working for me: 4,5,6,3. I watch the OT, which I still love for Lukes story, cause that is what is was always about. Don't be fooled by Lucas, in an interview, and I wish I could find it, but he said he didn't realize til 1988 that it was the story of Anakin, that is 5 years after Jedi.

After I watch the OT, Episode III serves one purpose for me, not about Anakin fall, but just the questions I have been wondering since 1983:

How did Anakin become Vader?
How did The Emperor become the ruler of the Galaxy
What happened to Luke & Leias mom?
The Duel (Vader vs. Kenobi)?
The other Duel (Yoda vs. Emperor)
How were Luke & Leia split up?
When did Kenobi & Yoda go into exile?

All those questions for me are answered in ROTS, and TPM & AOTC are irrelevant to me. I could care less about Jar Jar, about The Podrace, Midiclorians, Jango Fett, Dex's Diner, and bunch of crummy lines that we have to hear from Anakin & Padme throughout AOTC.

Episode III answers the questions that I wanted, nothing more nothing less, it is just backround information, not this whole big picture of this 6 part story of Anakin Skywalker, BORING!!!!!

Before I watched TPM & AOTC out of obligation to the saga, and I believed what BS Lucas was feeding us, but after ROTS, those first two movies, with the exception of a few plot points, in which I could have read them in some EU book in 5 minutes about Padme & Anakin love affair, or Anakins mom dying, or how Anakin was a cute little kid.

So I view the saga this way, and it is working for me real well:

Star Wars
The Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
(For Backround Information for the OT) Revenge of the Sith

You notice in this order, I don't have to hear Jar Jar say one word! "Weesa Free!!!!!!!!!!!"
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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Well, I'll have to word this carefully, since I want to avoid my usual argument of "they shouldn't be viewed as one whole story!" thing. But since you posted your view of Star Wars, I simply feel compelled to post mine, that's all, and it's simply impossible to present my view without first stating that I don't believe that all six should be viewed as one single entity. Simply put, for me, Star Wars is about the war between the Rebel Alliance and the Galactic Empire. On a more character-based level, it is the journey of Luke Skywalker to make something of his life, grow, and become responsible for destroying the key players in the Empire and reviving the Jedi ideals to the universe ("Not the last of old, but the first of the new."). And when I look simply at the movies, the original trilogy, or all six, trying to wrap my mind around it being the redemption of Anakin Skywalker leaves a bad taste in my mouth. When you get right down to it, only one movie has anything at all to do with the redemption of Anakin Skywalker, and that's Return of the Jedi. None of the prequels touch on this because, at that point, he has nothing to be redeemed from. And in the original trilogy, you don't even know Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker until the end of Empire. And no other character makes any attempts or has any aspirations to redeem him at that point, nor does he appear to want to himself. Only in Return of the Jedi does Luke come up with the notion of "redeeming" his father.

So, even if you do take all six films as one, complete story, Lucas's "It's the redemption of Anakin Skywalker" story doesn't hold water. That's like summarizing the first Star Wars movie by simply saying, "Star Wars is about blowing up the Death Star." The redemption of Anakin Skywalker is the conclusion of the story, not the story itself.


That is the major difference between the older (you) and the newer (myself) fans. To you, the Luke story is most interesting, and the PT serves as a backstory. To me, the story is about the rise, fall, and redmption of Anakin Skywalker by his son, and the restoration of the Jedi Order by his son. (I also count the post-ROTJ stuff.) Both men are the main characters, I'll agree with that. But to me, the PT adds the depth to the story, rather than simply being the "backstory to the main story."
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i agree with co. rots pretty much takes care of the prequel story all by itself. everything else just smacks of filler.
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That is the major difference between the older (you) and the newer (myself) fans. To you, the Luke story is most interesting, and the PT serves as a backstory. To me, the story is about the rise, fall, and redmption of Anakin Skywalker by his son, and the restoration of the Jedi Order by his son. (I also count the post-ROTJ stuff.) Both men are the main characters, I'll agree with that. But to me, the PT adds the depth to the story, rather than simply being the "backstory to the main story."

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The one thing I have noticed, is if you like the EU Books, and I have a friend that does, you tend to like the saga as 1-6, and are more interested in the whole galaxy of Star Wars, while liking the rise,fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

Personaly, I have never read an EU book, for some reason it just doesn't interest me, but the books continue on with the whole story, that some people see it as giving the saga more depth, and other feel it is just plain boring.
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Originally posted by: battlewars
i agree with co. rots pretty much takes care of the prequel story all by itself. everything else just smacks of filler.


I will third that, you dont really need them when all is said and done, if George made them more entertaining the "filler" might be worth watching, as the story of the other two(if he put in and took out a few elements) I feel was good but the execution of the story wasnt.


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Originally posted by: CO
That is the major difference between the older (you) and the newer (myself) fans. To you, the Luke story is most interesting, and the PT serves as a backstory. To me, the story is about the rise, fall, and redmption of Anakin Skywalker by his son, and the restoration of the Jedi Order by his son. (I also count the post-ROTJ stuff.) Both men are the main characters, I'll agree with that. But to me, the PT adds the depth to the story, rather than simply being the "backstory to the main story."

Text



The one thing I have noticed, is if you like the EU Books, and I have a friend that does, you tend to like the saga as 1-6, and are more interested in the whole galaxy of Star Wars, while liking the rise,fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

Personaly, I have never read an EU book, for some reason it just doesn't interest me, but the books continue on with the whole story, that some people see it as giving the saga more depth, and other feel it is just plain boring.


Exactly. I really have enjoyed the EU. It certainly does, in my opinion , add so much more to the story than what is seen in the films. The OT, or even all six by themselves, are seen as part of a larger whole when put with the EU. In fact, I can't see how someone can call themselves a fan without appreciating, or at least trying to appreciate all parts of the story. As a wise man once said: "To understand the great mystery, you must study all of its aspects...
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Exactly. I really have enjoyed the EU. It certainly does, in my opinion , add so much more to the story than what is seen in the films. The OT, or even all six by themselves, are seen as part of a larger whole when put with the EU. In fact, I can't see how someone can call themselves a fan without appreciating, or at least trying to appreciate all parts of the story. As a wise man once said: "To understand the great mystery, you must study all of its aspects...

Text


That is not fair to say, because the EU books didn't come out until the early 90's, and we were all diehards fans of the OT through the 70's/80's. Now to each his own, if you like the EU and the story of Anakin Skywalker as a 6 part movie saga, that is great. But I consider myself a diehard SW fan for almost 30 years, and only love the OT, and I like ROTS, just for backstory purposes.

I don't think that Lucas ever imagined there would be such different types of SW fans since the Prequels came out. You have the OT diehards who hate the PT, you have the PT diehards, who don't understand the fascination with the original Star Wars, you have people in the middle who grew up with the OT, and still keep giving the PT a chance, but still feel underwhelmed. And then you have the EU/Anakin Skywalker Saga fans who love everything about SW, and can't get enough.

Back in 1983, when ROTJ was finished it film run, we were all just SW fans and never argued or insulted each other as many do all over different SW boards, we argued with people that were NOT fans of the SW, and defended the movies to a tilt. After the last 10 years, and what Lucas has done to the series, (OT SE changes, TPM & AOTC mediocre movies, constanstly contradicting himself), I find myself bashing Lucas rather than defending him in 1983 when I thought he was a genius.

It is kind of ironic that the man who created the movies I love and are my favorite of all-time is the same man who is screwing them up now.