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What do you HATE about the EU? — Page 49

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Superweapon VII said:

Spartacus01 said:

I hate the post-1999 EU Jedi with every all of myself.

Agree. I can tolerate the prequel-era Jedi to an extent, but it really got my goat when their characteristics were applied to Jedi outside that era.

I also hated this with the Sith. Things like the “Darth” title and red lightsabers kept getting pushed further and further back in the timeline.

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darklordoftech said:

Superweapon VII said:

Spartacus01 said:

I hate the post-1999 EU Jedi with every all of myself.

Agree. I can tolerate the prequel-era Jedi to an extent, but it really got my goat when their characteristics were applied to Jedi outside that era.

I also hated this with the Sith. Things like the “Darth” title and red lightsabers kept getting pushed further and further back in the timeline.

I know, right?

I enjoyed the KOTOR comic well enough, but it irked me when one of Exar Kun’s followers turned up with a red lightsaber or when Haazen commented on choosing “Darth Hayze” as his Sith name.

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy

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Too many canceled video games!
That, and there’s too many to choose from. The Yuuzahn Vong, however it’s spelled, invasion was tiring, and only read three of the books. STAR WARS Legacy was readable but very forgettable at best, so I didn’t hate it, but that it just exists. Interesting concept though. Tales of the Jedi looking too much Original Trilogy, in a way, and not ancient.
I also reread the hell out of DARKSABER since I wanted to know more about the Hutts in the 1990s, can’t honestly remember why I reread it so often. Must have been the awesome Drew Struzan artwork.
Hated that there were so many books but not enough comic book adaptations.

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AdmiralWasabi10191 said:

Tales of the Jedi looking too much Original Trilogy, in a way, and not ancient.

I don’t think we read the same comic. The aesthetic of TOTJ is completely dissimilar to the OT aesthetic.

But perhaps you meant to say KOTOR and just got the two confused?

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy

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Superweapon VII said:

darklordoftech said:

Superweapon VII said:

Spartacus01 said:

I hate the post-1999 EU Jedi with every all of myself.

Agree. I can tolerate the prequel-era Jedi to an extent, but it really got my goat when their characteristics were applied to Jedi outside that era.

I also hated this with the Sith. Things like the “Darth” title and red lightsabers kept getting pushed further and further back in the timeline.

I know, right?

I enjoyed the KOTOR comic well enough, but it irked me when one of Exar Kun’s followers turned up with a red lightsaber or when Haazen commented on choosing “Darth Hayze” as his Sith name.

I think that as far as the Legends timeline goes, the “Darth” title and red lightsabers should begin no earlier than 2000 BBY (when the TPM novelization says the Sith were founded) and end with Empire’s End.

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Superweapon VII said:

AdmiralWasabi10191 said:

Tales of the Jedi looking too much Original Trilogy, in a way, and not ancient.

I don’t think we read the same comic. The aesthetic of TOTJ is completely dissimilar to the OT aesthetic.

But perhaps you meant to say KOTOR and just got the two confused?

Sort of KOTOR too but that’d be for the other thread since I love both games, on PC you see. But I haven’t all the mods yet. I haven’t read any of the Dark Horse Tales of the Jedi comics in years so I’m going by very vague memories.
OH YEAH! No KOTOR III, BATTLEFRONT III, STAR WARS: IMPERIAL COMMANDO, or STAR WARS: 1313! I would have played all four! Damn canceled games.

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AdmiralWasabi10191 said:

Superweapon VII said:

AdmiralWasabi10191 said:

Tales of the Jedi looking too much Original Trilogy, in a way, and not ancient.

I don’t think we read the same comic. The aesthetic of TOTJ is completely dissimilar to the OT aesthetic.

But perhaps you meant to say KOTOR and just got the two confused?

Sort of KOTOR too but that’d be for the other thread since I love both games, on PC you see.

I was talking about the KOTOR comic series. I’m not a gamer, so I have no personal experience with the games.

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy

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Superweapon VII said:

AdmiralWasabi10191 said:

Superweapon VII said:

AdmiralWasabi10191 said:

Tales of the Jedi looking too much Original Trilogy, in a way, and not ancient.

I don’t think we read the same comic. The aesthetic of TOTJ is completely dissimilar to the OT aesthetic.

But perhaps you meant to say KOTOR and just got the two confused?

Sort of KOTOR too but that’d be for the other thread since I love both games, on PC you see.

I was talking about the KOTOR comic series. I’m not a gamer, so I have no personal experience with the games.

I’ve never read the KOTOR comics. I’m not a gamer either, but a video game player.
KOTOR II - The Sith Lords releasing too early. Should have waited awhile, because cut content mods.

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I hate the reboot of the EU, no not the Disney one but i do hate that. I hate The New Jedi order. I hate how grimdark it is, i hate how it tries to make Star Wars science fiction instead of space fantasy/adventure. They could have gone in any direction after the Zahn duology and the move from Bantam to Del Rey, but instead we got garbage.

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JadedSkywalker said:

i hate how it tries to make Star Wars science fiction instead of space fantasy/adventure.

I don’t think you can lay the blame for that on the NJO. That trend began with the WEG rulebooks, IIRC.

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy

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AdmiralWasabi10191 said:
OH YEAH! No KOTOR III, BATTLEFRONT III, STAR WARS: IMPERIAL COMMANDO, or STAR WARS: 1313! I would have played all four! Damn canceled games.

You know, in all fairness when certain builds of the game started leaking, including the story mode, i can safely say that BF3 would have an absolute dysmal story.
The gameplay looked sick af tho.

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The EU leaning too far into pure science fiction is one of my biggest criticisms with it. It’s interesting because the issue usually doesn’t come up in conversations.

Move along, move along.

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of_Kaiburr_and_Whills said:

The EU leaning too far into pure science fiction is one of my biggest criticisms with it. It’s interesting because the issue usually doesn’t come up in conversations.

As someone who’s come to prefer hard(er) sci-fi to soft sci-fi, the physics of space travel/battle in SW began to rankle me. Then I came upon this thread, which allowed me to view the series from a whole different perspective.

If I ever get my SW Saga rewrite off the ground, I plan on playing up the wonky physics, just to drive home that this setting doesn’t take place in a universe anything like ours. Luminiferous aether, anyone?

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy

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I disliked how they wanted to Force Prequel Trilogy Worldbuilding in the EU after the New Jedi Order i think the EU works better as an Alternative Universe where Lucas Prequels never happened since there are contradictions like Luke Mother, Timothy Zahn Version of the Clone Wars, Sith becoming Force Ghosts, Palpatine Resurrection the Prophecy of the Chosen One did not exist before 1999, Luke Jedi Order letting his Jedi get Married seems like this was something Normal with the Jedi before Lucas Prequels, Corellian Jedi, in Old Video Games like Dark Forces 1 and 2 or Shadows of the Empire the Empire seems to have ruled the Galaxy for more than 19 Years it doesnt look like the Prequels took place in the same Universe as those Games, looks like Ashka Boda could have been the Leader of the Jedi Order before the Lucas Prequels and not Yoda or Mace Windu

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MinchD36 said:
there are contradictions like Luke Mother

It’s not a contradiction. Check out this video: https://youtu.be/7qH8m_zXRRg

Timothy Zahn Version of the Clone Wars

It’s not a contradiction. All the discrepancies between the Thrawn Trilogy and the Prequels have been explained by the pre-Disney Lucasfilm years ago. When Pellaeon talks about him remembering fighting Clones during the Clone Wars, he’s talking about the Battle of Seleucami from the Republic comics by Dark Horse. In the Seleucami arc, we see that the Separatist are trying to create an Army of Clones to fight the Republic, and that’s exactly what Pellaeon is referring to in the Thrawn Trilogy. Besides, when it’s stated that the Clones were the bad guys in the Thrawn Trilogy, they’re still talking about the Battle of Seleucami. So yeah, it’s not a contradiction. Sure, you can say that it’s a bit convoluted, but it’s not a total contradiction. The Thrawn Trilogy directly contradicts TCW, because in the show there’s no Battle of Seleucami and there are no Separatist Clones. But it doesn’t contradict the Clone Wars Multimedia Project and the Republic comics.

Sith becoming Force Ghosts

It’s not a contradiction with the Prequels. Sure, George Lucas stated that the Sith can’t become Force ghosts, but there’s nothing in the Prequels that suggests that. So no, it’s not a direct contradiction with the Prequel Trilogy.

Palpatine Resurrection the Prophecy of the Chosen One did not exist

You can come up with a billion possible explanations that can make the Chosen One Prophecy fit with Palpatine’s resurrection in Dark Empire. So no, it’s not a direct contradiction with the Prequels.

before 1999, Luke Jedi Order letting his Jedi get Married seems like this was something Normal with the Jedi before Lucas Prequels, Corellian Jedi,

Just because the Jedi had rules that forbade marriage in the Prequels doesn’t mean those rules always existed in the past and will always exist in the future. So no, it’s not a contradiction with the Prequels.

in Old Video Games like Dark Forces 1 and 2 or Shadows of the Empire the Empire seems to have ruled the Galaxy for more than 19 Years it doesnt look like the Prequels took place in the same Universe as those Games,

This is a purely subjective feeling, and it is not proof of any objective contradiction. Besides, in Shadows of the Empire, the Empire has been in control of the Galaxy for 25 years, not 19 years.

looks like Ashka Boda could have been the Leader of the Jedi Order before the Lucas Prequels and not Yoda or Mace Windu

Again, just because the Jedi had more rigid rules in the Prequels doesn’t mean they always had those rules. So again, it’s not a contradiction with the EU.

“Sometimes we must let go of our pride, and do what is requested to us.”
– Anakin Skywalker

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Hammer a square peg in a round hole hard enough, it’ll be sure to fit.

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy

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Mara Jade sneaking into Jabba’s Palace to assassinate Luke. The Emperor wanted to turn Luke to the dark side (which would require Luke to be alive) and there’s no way he would allow anyone besides himself and Vader to get involved in his plans for Luke.

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When you point out a contradiction in the Legends EU, you’ll be told to swallow an absurd “explanation”, yet much smaller things in the prequels and sequels are declared “plot holes”.

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Superweapon VII said:

of_Kaiburr_and_Whills said:

The EU leaning too far into pure science fiction is one of my biggest criticisms with it. It’s interesting because the issue usually doesn’t come up in conversations.

As someone who’s come to prefer hard(er) sci-fi to soft sci-fi, the physics of space travel/battle in SW began to rankle me. Then I came upon this thread, which allowed me to view the series from a whole different perspective.

I have the same preference, but arrived at the opposite conclusion. I would prefer if the sci-fi aspect of Star Wars was emphasized a bit more. I don’t want it to be hard sci-fi, of course, but just maybe like 20% more sci-fi. I think the original Star Wars (Episode IV) was like 15-20% more sci-fi than ESB and ROTJ. And I think Zahn’s original Thrawn Trilogy is probably like 15% more sci-fi than Episode IV - which I appreciated.

I can accept that certain physics-violating elements of Star Wars space combat are likely too cemented into our aesthetic expectations about what Star Wars should be at this point, so I don’t expect to see an X-wing rotating about its vertical axis to blow up a TIE fighter approaching from behind any time soon - although that would be cool if it happened.

But I think that “Star Wars is Surrealism” essay is very misguided. Maybe one day I’ll have the time to write up a proper response to it.

Regardless, I definitely think the actual fantasy elements of Star Wars should be kept strictly fantasy/supernatural. So stuff like midichlorians, or really any exploration of “how the Force works” beyond the vague mysticism conveyed by Yoda in ESB, is a really bad move. I also dislike the idea of any technology or physical mechanism that somehow affects, counteracts or manipulates the Force (e.g. ysalamiri, Jedi clones, etc.), because it implies the Force can be controlled and manipulated using predictable physical laws.

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Channel72 said:

Superweapon VII said:

of_Kaiburr_and_Whills said:

The EU leaning too far into pure science fiction is one of my biggest criticisms with it. It’s interesting because the issue usually doesn’t come up in conversations.

As someone who’s come to prefer hard(er) sci-fi to soft sci-fi, the physics of space travel/battle in SW began to rankle me. Then I came upon this thread, which allowed me to view the series from a whole different perspective.

I have the same preference, but arrived at the opposite conclusion. I would prefer if the sci-fi aspect of Star Wars was emphasized a bit more. I don’t want it to be hard sci-fi, of course, but just maybe like 20% more sci-fi. I think the original Star Wars (Episode IV) was like 15-20% more sci-fi than ESB and ROTJ. And I think Zahn’s original Thrawn Trilogy is probably like 15% more sci-fi than Episode IV - which I appreciated.

I can accept that certain physics-violating elements of Star Wars space combat are likely too cemented into our aesthetic expectations about what Star Wars should be at this point, so I don’t expect to see an X-wing rotating about its vertical axis to blow up a TIE fighter approaching from behind any time soon - although that would be cool if it happened.

The biggest elephant in the room for me is the presence of AI. If the peoples of the SW Universe can build thinking machines, then battle droids and droid starfighters should be the norm, not an outlier. If they’re concerned about a possible Skynet situation, then remote-controlled drones are a reasonable alternative. There’s no reason the Republic/Empire should default to clone/stormtroopers, and absolutely no reason they or the Rebels should use organic pilots. And just saying droids are inferior to organics doesn’t cut it, not when we’ve seen they’re capable enough in a warzone to get the job done.

As sci-fi, this bothers me. As fantasy, it doesn’t.

But I think that “Star Wars is Surrealism” essay is very misguided. Maybe one day I’ll have the time to write up a proper response to it.

I’d like to see that.

I definitely think the actual fantasy elements of Star Wars should be kept strictly fantasy/supernatural. So stuff like midichlorians, or really any exploration of “how the Force works” beyond the vague mysticism conveyed by Yoda in ESB, is a really bad move. I also dislike the idea of any technology or physical mechanism that somehow affects, counteracts or manipulates the Force (e.g. ysalamiri, Jedi clones, etc.), because it implies the Force can be controlled and manipulated using predictable physical laws.

I think the ysalamari would’ve been more palatable if Zahn had described their powers differently, less “negate the Force”, more “negate Force-users’ ability to feel the Force”.

I’m with you vis-à-vis Force-sensitive clones. Perhaps if Zahn had established that Force-sensitive clones are extensions of their genetic templates, sharing memories, linked telepathically, etc., a mystical angle could’ve been retained, but Zahn didn’t do this, and none of the authors following him did either (as far as I know).

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy

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Superweapon VII said:

The biggest elephant in the room for me is the presence of AI. If the peoples of the SW Universe can build thinking machines, then battle droids and droid starfighters should be the norm, not an outlier. If they’re concerned about a possible Skynet situation, then remote-controlled drones are a reasonable alternative. There’s no reason the Republic/Empire should default to clone/stormtroopers, and absolutely no reason they or the Rebels should use organic pilots. And just saying droids are inferior to organics doesn’t cut it, not when we’ve seen they’re capable enough in a warzone to get the job done.

As sci-fi, this bothers me. As fantasy, it doesn’t.

Yeah… that’s really difficult to explain. It’s one of those things that is hard to realistically address without killing the whole franchise. The only possible excuse available to explain non-droid armies is cost. You could claim that battle droids are just more expensive to manufacture and require more energy to operate. But Star Wars actually seems to do the opposite, making it seem like battledroids are cheap, mass-produced crap that are inferior to clones. (Although Andor claims human prison labor is somehow cheaper than droid labor.)

As for biological star-fighter pilots, yeah, there’s pretty much no way to explain that realistically. It’s one of those things that just has to be accepted in order for the franchise to work, along with sound in space and hyperspace travel. (It doesn’t help that Star Wars calls attention to this problem by actually showing computer-piloted fighter craft in the Prequels.)

But I think adding in sci-fi elements as much as possible helps to establish boundaries and limitations that can help make stories more interesting. Like for example, there should never be large Napoleonic-style ground armies - it’s so ridiculous and creatively bankrupt. (I always wondered why in Phantom Menace, when the Gungan army assembles out in the open, the ships in orbit don’t just immediately nuke them.) At least in the OT, with the Battle of Hoth, they really put effort into explaining why the Empire has to deploy ground forces. (Although admittedly the design of AT-ATs is hard to explain realistically).

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Has it ever been explained why they don’t need droid control ships any more? In the old EU this was the whole reason nobody used droid armies - they relied on transmissions from a control point that could be easily jammed. But now in the other prequels and all the media that followed it’s never mentioned.

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Mocata said:

Has it ever been explained why they don’t need droid control ships any more? In the old EU this was the whole reason nobody used droid armies - they relied on transmissions from a control point that could be easily jammed. But now in the other prequels and all the media that followed it’s never mentioned.

I always thought the droid control ship was just contrived specifically for Phantom Menace, so there would be a single point of attack the good guys could target to win. There’s so many cases in fiction where they setup an overwhelmingly powerful enemy force that can be taken out by some single point of attack (e.g. Death Star exhaust port, Sauron’s ring, etc.) for the sake of neatly wrapping up the story.

Arguably, ROTJ sidestepped this problem by leaving it vague what happened to the Imperial forces after the Emperor died.

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I’m greatly annoyed that the original manuscript for the unpublished novel Heart of the Jedi isn’t available to read. Joseph Bongiorno wanted to revise the text to bring the story in-line with established Expanded Universe lore? Fine, nothing wrong with that. But why not release both the original and revised versions so fans can have a choice? Lucas’ revisionist mentality truly is an insidious poison.

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy