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Post #1508252

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Did G. Lucas ever intend to portray the Jedi as a flawed institution in the prequels? Or was it added later in the EU?
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18-Oct-2022, 1:10 PM
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19-Oct-2022, 2:12 AM
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yotsuya said:

You seem to have ignored all the OT things I pointed out.

No, I acknowledged them all, I just didn’t quote everything. You’re the one not reading or digesting what I said.

It is not just my head canon. It is there in the films.

No, it’s not.

I don’t agree that Filoni made it up. It is well documented how much he worked with Lucas directly. If he says that is what Lucas told him, I believe him.

George Lucas didn’t tell him that. Dave never even said George Lucas told him that.

I’m gonna link this again as you obviously didn’t read it. It proves that those things that Dave Filoni says was not George Lucas intentions.

And he’s another post about how Dave Filoni differs in his view of the Prequels from George Lucas in many ways.

There is an entire thread on this site about Lucas being an unreliable narrator because he continually changes things. The various edits to the OT and PT films aren’t the only thing he changes. After the OT was complete, he liked to claim that Vader was always intended to be Luke and Leia’s father when that is very obviously not the case. The films and the previous drafts of the scripts prove otherwise.

Bruh. George was saying this stuff about the Jedi AS THE PREQUELS WERE COMING OUT. He said it when The Phantom Menace came out, when Attack of the Clones came out, and when Revenge of the Sith came out. It’s even in the audio commentary. And if you ask him now, he’ll say the same shit. There’s no retconning going on here.

To be honest, I really don’t stop to consider anything Lucas says that seems to conflict with the movies. And that tends to be quite a lot of what he says. So as far as I’m concerned, if you are listening to Lucas over the films themselves that is a non-canon head canon. The films disagree with him on a number of levels and what Filoni shared of his conversations with Lucas better agrees with the films than his own comments do. I referred to Filoni because what he has shared of his conversations with Lucas agrees with what I got out of the films long before he had done a single episode of Clone Wars. His comments add layers to the PT that agree with my own previous observations. Same with Luke’s comments in the ST. The only EU book I have read since the mid 90’s has been the Millennium Falcon book. I have largely ignored the EU so none of my observations have anything to do with the EU. It is only the the Saga films themselves. From the films I see the flaws in the Jedi. They are less than what they were. I think George often speaks of the Jedi at their height, not the Jedi just before their fall.

No, what you’re doing is refusing to re-interpret the films under the lens that George Lucas wanted you to interpret them in. You’re so attached to your head canon you refuse to see it any other way.

The films very much established that younglings are recruited before any bad habits can set in.

Yeah, the Jedi are taught not to repress their fears, taught to love things but not become attached to things, and are taught to let go. From birth. These are healthy things. If a Jedi doesn’t learn to let go of their fear, they will give into it and that will lead to the dark side.

With Anakin they try the normal youngling training and it fails. Fear is part of who Anakin is already and the teachings about fear fail.

Because Anakin refuses to follow the teachings. It’s not the training that fails. Otherwise why do all the other Jedi not have these problems? If Jedi are just bottled up emotions ready to explode, why don’t more fall to the dark side? The ones that do fall are the ones that refuse to follow the Jedi teachings, that let fear and greed consume them (Anakin and Dooku).

He needed teachings about anger and hate, not fear.

He needed teachings about all of those.

In The Phantom Menace, Anakin doesn’t need to be taught about anger and hatred because he doesn’t have it yet. He’s just a sweet, kind kid. But he is repressing his fears, and that needs to be dealt with. He will become angry and hateful if he continues on this path of bottling his fears.

The implication of his age and the various comments is that he is too old and the normal Jedi teachings don’t work.

He’s too old because he’s already old enough that he’s fallen into the habit of repressing his fears. Anakin keeps refusing that admit that he’s afraid. If you drag someone to therapy and they keep refusing to do the therapy and refuse to admit that anything’s wrong, nothing’s ever gonna get done.

Not ONCE does George Lucas blame the teachings on Anakin’s turn to the dark side. He blames Anakin for not applying the teachings.

“The fact that everything must change and that things come and go throughout life and that he can’t hold onto things is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn’t willing to accept emotionally, and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he’d have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn’t have this particular connection as strong as it is and he’d have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them.”

“Anakin wants to be a Jedi, but he cannot let go of the people he loves in order to move forward in his life. The Jedi believe that you don’t hold on to things, that you let things pass through you, and if you can control your greed, you can resolve the conflict not only in yourself but in the world around you, because you accept the natural course of things. Anakin’s inability to follow this basic guideline is at the core of his turn to the Dark Side.

Fast forward to Obi-wan and Yoda dealing with Luke, they have adjusted their teachings to account for his age where they had not for Anakin.

No. Yoda says that fear is one of the things Luke needs to be wary of.

“Anger, fear, aggression, the dark side are they.” He also repeats this in Return of the Jedi.

Also, when they’re trying to stop Luke from recklessly leaving to save people he isn’t ready to save, they’re teaching him to not give into his fear.

Also, LUCAS HIMSELF literally says, “The key to the dark side is fear.” IT’S RIGHT HERE. READ.

This is HIS OWN PHILOSOPHY. Unless you wanna make up some bullshit that his philosophy changed between the trilogies (which again, is proven wrong by Yoda warning Luke against fear), there’s no change. The Jedi aren’t “adjusting their teachings”. It stays the same.

HE EVEN SAYS THAT IT’S LITERALLY CORE TO STAR WARS. He just told you to your face that you misinterpreted the whole point of the Star Wars saga. And you’re still in denial XD

From a writing perspective with the PT being written later, that has to be a deliberate choice on Lucas’s part. He pulls the PT Jedi back to teaching to avoid fear. Anakin had fear, but Luke has anger. And yet Anakin fell and Luke did not? What is one key difference? What they were taught. You can see that Lucas analyzed what the failing with Anakin was and came up with something that Obi-wan and Yoda had fixed to teach Luke. You can see the difference in teachings in the PT and OT. The only reason for that is to show that the PT Jedi failed Anakin due to failures of their teachings. They could not adapt to Anakin’s age or inherent fear. Obi-wan and Yoda wanted to make sure that did not happen with Luke and trained Luke so that when Palpatine and Vader goaded him far enough, that he could come back from it.

If you read quotes from George Lucas he never differentiates the OT and Prequel Jedi. They’re just Jedi. And Luke is following the standard Jedi path, not a new one. This is your head canon.

In the films themselves we don’t see that in great detail.

That’s the crux. You’re filling in things in a way that Lucas doesn’t intend for you to because he writes things in a straightforward and blunt manner that doesn’t tackle all of the intricacies.

This goes along with Yoda’s advice in TLJ - to learn from your mistakes. That dialog just puts to words what we already saw Yoda do. So it there was a mistake, that means the PT Jedi did something wrong. They failed in training Anakin. They failed detecting Palpatine and his influence. They failed in a number of ways and Obi-wan and Yoda train Luke differently in several key ways.

And yet George Lucas goes on and on about how Anakin’s fall was not the Jedi’s fault. So no, Yoda did not fail Anakin. Yoda saying “The greatest teacher, failure is” is just talking about The Clone Wars and not seeing Palpatine. Not Anakin.

The PT Jedi ways work for younglings, but they fail for those who are older. It makes you wonder how many older force sensitive beings the Jedi decide not to train. Their numbers are greatly reduced and they could use the additional recruits. But if they don’t know how to train someone older who has issues then it makes sense.

They do know how to. It’s the same way you teach a youngling. The reason they train them so young because learning it when you’re young is way easier. But in the end, Luke went through the same teachings and it worked. Anakin just refused to follow the teachings. The difference between Luke and Anakin isn’t the teachings, it’s the fact that Anakin refused to apply them to himself and while Luke accepted them and overcame his flaws. When Anakin was given a choice to give into his fear, greed and hate or to let go and overcome it, he does it at every turn. He gives into his thirst for revenge against the Tuskens and Dooku and gives into his fear of losing Padme. Luke overcomes his fear that his friends will die and his anger towards Darth Vader and chooses to have compassion for his father instead.

Luke is headstrong and does many things his own way, but in that moment when he looks at Vader’s severed mechanical arm and his own mechanical hand, those lessons from Yoda and Obi-wan dominate the emotions running through him. Their revised teachings worked.

Luke’s arc in Return of the Jedi is to OVERCOME his headstrong methods. Him throwing away the lightsaber is REJECTING the dark side, REJECTING his anger and being calm and rational. His rampage against Vader wasn’t a good thing, it was a flaw he needed to overcome, and he did. And that’s the only example of Luke being reckless in ROTJ. In the plan to save Han Solo and when he faces Vader to try and turn him, he’s completely calm, calculating, and rational. Look at him when he’s talking to Jabba the Hutt and Darth Vader. He’s literally stiff as a rock. In fact, the scene in which he’s talking to Jabba in ROTJ mirrors Qui-Gon’s conversation with Boss Nass in The Phantom Menace. Because both scenes are of a Jedi rationally trying to peacefully negotiate and the other refusing to listen.

If the PT Jedi were right, there would be no need to show a difference in training. That there is a difference between the PT and OT is how you can tell that this is something deliberate that Lucas did. That is how you can tell what he told Filoni is accurate.

Then why did Lucas give the Prequel Jedi his own philosophy? Like actually?

That is how you can tell a lot of his interviews were BS.

Conspiracy theory bullshit. “He was lying to cover something up!”, you can say that about anything. “NASA said the Earth is round, here is the proof” “They’re lying to cover up Flat Earth!” Same shit. If you have to resort to conspiracy theory nonsense that everything Lucas says is to cover something up then you know you lost.

As it’s not JUST in interviews. It’s in the audio commentary, in “The Making of…” books, in The Star Wars Archives by Paul Duncan, in lectures he gives at Universities (once again proving that Jedi philosophy is also HIS philosophy), literally anywhere you can see George Lucas talk about Star Wars. He comments about this so much that literally the only thing short of it is actually talking to him in person. And honestly, I would literally pay money for you to meet George Lucas just to see his face as you go on your rant about how every time he’s elaborated on the meaning of the Prequels and his own philosophy was actually a conspiracy to cover up the truth of his films and his philosophy and you are one of the enlightened ones that truly understand. Like actually. His face would be priceless.

The PT celebrated Jedi and Lucas wanted to publicly encourage that.

Why would he want people to celebrate people he intentionally portrayed as corrupt? He certainly didn’t want people to celebrate the Sith or the state of the Senate in the prequels. He outright has called Darth Vader “pathetic” twice (which like, I’m a Darth Vader fanboy, he’s my favorite character, but he’s right. He might be the most powerful force user and a badass, but the man lives a sad life, he’s constantly suffering). You know, the most worshipped character in all of Star Wars. If he’s spewing bullshit to appeal to the fans why does he continue to defend fucking Jar Jar Binks? The most hated character of all time? This literally doesn’t make any sense.

Tell me, how does it make any sense that Lucas literally gave the Jedi his own values and philosophy, which I’ve proven over and over, if the Jedi are meant to be flawed? Actually, I want to know? The answer is it doesn’t make sense. Because he’s not just talking about what the Jedi are teaching, he’s literally talking to you as himself. He’s giving you lessons that are exactly the same as Yoda’s.

But sure, bring up the same shit I’ve debunked over and over and rationalize with conspiracy theory nonsense. Or maybe just admit that it’s your head canon.