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Post #1507483

Author
yotsuya
Parent topic
Anakin/Vader and mortality
Link to post in topic
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1507483/action/topic#1507483
Date created
12-Oct-2022, 3:14 PM

G&G-Fan said:

yotsuya said:

The Jedi teaching that we get in the first 6 films are all based on avoidance.

No, it’s not.

“…overcome fear which leads to hate”. Oh, it’s almost like a Jedi needs to face their fear and overcome it. Not avoid it.

Yoda saying “Once you start down the dark path…” is not saying “Once you feel fear once, you’l; be on the dark side forever.” That’d be ridiculous, especially considering Yoda admits he’s afraid for Anakin’s training at the end of Phantom Menace. It’s saying, “Once you turn to the dark side, you’ll never be able to turn back.” Which is true, for the most part. Sidious never turned. Maul never turned. Dooku never turned. Vader only turned because of his son. Even his wife and master couldn’t convince him to turn. If it weren’t for Luke, the dark side would forever dominate his destiny. Yoda is making a generalization.

A big part of the path of the Jedi is about confronting your fears and overcoming it. It’s what the scene with Kanan and the temple guards is about, in Rebels. The Ithorian youngling getting his kyber crystal (overcoming his fear of the scary cave) in The Clone Wars. Yoda overcoming Dark Yoda in The Clone Wars. It’s why Yoda told Luke to go into the dark side cave on Dagobah in The Empire Strikes Back. Because he knew Luke would see what he’s afraid of. He needs to face it and overcome it. If Jedi’s relationship with fear was avoidance, he would’ve told Luke not to go in there.

Well, you kind of made my point there. Yoda said that fear leads to anger which leads to hate which leads to suffering. At what point are you doomed to the dark side? It isn’t just fear. The entire teaching is based on stopping at fear. It is established in The Phantom Menace than Anakin has fear. The council does not want to teach him based on that. He has not given in to his anger, which we see when Palpatine is testing his chosen apprentices. The movies establish that the jump from anger to hate is where you get trapped. The Jedi are stopping at fear to avoid anger and hate. They are avoiding the path to the dark side by cutting it off at fear. Conquering your fear is a good teaching. But it was not the point that Anakin needed. Yes, we see both Obi-wan and Luke give in to anger and fight like wildcats (TPM and ROTJ), but were either one on the path the dark side? They did not let their anger consume them. It did not turn to hate. Well, no more than a moment. For Anakin, fear is an old friend. And there was so much he didn’t have to fear. He was very powerful so a great many things did not cause fear. But fear of loss and change was deep in him. For him to succeed he needed a different set of teachings, one the Jedi were not prepared to provide. But one that Qui-gon apparently would have.

When Obi-wan warns Luke in TESB he says “Don’t give in to hate. that leads to the dark side.” That totally resets what Yoda said in the PT. Looks like some reflection on Anakin’s fall led him to rethink how to warn Luke. Luke does not give in to hate where his father did. But Luke’s actions in TESB are driven by his fear for his friends. So Obi-wan gives him a more accurate warning for where the danger point really is. And we see the results.

So given what we seen and the dialog, the PT Jedi are setting the bar for the dark side well to the safe side of the actual danger point. They want to avoid fear (a good teaching but not accurate for the fall to the dark side). But in TESB Obi-wan gives Luke the honest point, one that all the dark side masters use in their temptations, as giving in to hate. The difference between fear and hate is vast. It was the difference between Anakin staying on the light side and him falling to the dark side. It is right there in the movies. So regardless of what Lucas has to say, his films speak for themselves and reveal the disparity between what the Jedi taught and what the danger point really was.