What do you think of the Sequel Trilogy? - a general discussion thread — Page 12

Stardust1138 said:

AspiringCreator said:

Stardust1138 said:

JadedSkywalker said:

I liked the aspect of the force being more democratic and mysterious and its choosing a neophyte no one to restore the balance. I liked that Last Jedi basically made the whole mutant inherited bloodline thing, irrelevant. Only for Rise to make Rey a Palpatine and undo the idea of Star Wars going back to the style of a the original where Luke was a no one, who had the courage to leave Tatooine and confront the Empire. Originally Luke was a brave kid who went on an adventure he wasn’t the son of a super-villain/mutant with the most mitochondrial DNA or midichlorians whatsits in existence to some prophecy. Its undermines the force and free will. Its junk.

The thing is George never said the Force was exclusive to bloodlines. I think what he says about is just the opposite from how both J.J. and Rian took it to mean.

He said:

"A lot of people get confused about the Force. They see it as some special thing that you can find and pick up and put it on your head and suddenly you have the Force. Whereas it’s always been designed so that every [living] being has the Force.

The amount of Force, which is like talent or intelligence, is different in every person. Some of it is inherited, but it’s no more than a talent. It’s not something you can acquire – it’s something you can learn to use. I have the power to lift that cup off the table using the Force, but I can’t do it unless I have been trained to do it."

And with the Whills. They tie into the idea of free will and destiny:

“The Whills are a microscopic, single-celled lifeform like amoeba, fungi, and bacteria. There’s something like 100.000 times more Whills than there are Midi-Chlorians, and there are about 10.000 times more Midi-Chlorians than there are human cells. The only microscopic entities that can go into the human cells are the Midi-Chlorians. They are born in the cells. The Midi-Chlorians provide the energy for human cells to split and create life. The Whills are single-celled animals that feed on the Force. The more of the Force there is, the better off they are. So they have a very intense symbiotic relationship with the Midi-Chlorians and the Midi-Chlorians effectively work for the Whills. It is estimated that we have 100 trillion microbes in our body and we are made up of about 90% bacteria and 10% human cells. So who is in service to whom?”

The reason we follow the Skywalker family isn’t because they’re more important than others who can also use the Force but because the saga was about Anakin and his family. Anakin and his family just had a greater destiny akin to God in a general sense. Some have greater destinies than others and it’s also your choice on if we want to act on it or ignore the call to something greater. Fate has a way a stopping in where it’s needed.

The argument I’d have here is that while George’s sentiment is nice as it’s a way of showing the inclusion of Midichlorians doesn’t mess with the Force and that it’s still ultimately about how everyone has the Force and the potential to use it? That doesn’t really matter here. While your reading is still absolutely valid, the prequels as they change the context of the OT and arguably what one sees maybe from the old EU makes this into a matter where it really feels like being strong in the Force requires you to be a part of a bloodline. Looking back at the OT, part of the appeal to me of the Force is that while in this moment we see Luke is the hero and that he’s learning the ways of the Force? He’s also an everyman and we hear it flows through every living being so you get the idea that you don’t have to be a Skywalker or a Kenobi or whoever to be a hero, the Force flows through everyone therefore everyone has the potential, some might have a bigger headstart on it than others but anyone can learn to use it.

The PT then made Anakin the Chosen One, a child born from a virgin birth that apparently was caused by manipulating Midichlorians and because of the framing of the movies, it’s more based on being born into that bloodline and the Skywalkers suddenly become the only family that really matters to this massive galaxy for almost every single issue revolves around them. Sure one can say it doesn’t matter and that it’s just this is the family the movies follow but the movies still have that kind of framing and later stories keep up with this. For being a galaxy from a long time ago, this universe feels tiny and the Force becomes more like inherited superpowers. Now of course that’s just how I personally read it from spending time with the universe and if you like that aspect then more power to you. But I’ve just got to say that I don’t really care what George says in this instance. Word of God can only go so far and considering how the movies portray it? It’s why I’m more grateful for movies like TLJ bucking that trend and bringing things to being more like the OT while still attempting to show respect to the PT because with how the movies and other portions of the saga framed things? It really felt like it was more about the bloodlines and not about someone in a sea of nobodies rising up and choosing to become someone.

I appreciate your read on things but I see the opposite. I actually like The Last Jedi in an alternate universe sort of way for the most part. However I think one thing it gets wrong is making Rey a “Nobody”. We’ve seen Nobodies use the Force and be Jedi before. The entire Jedi Order and arguably younglings are a bunch of nobodies. The stories just tended to keep the narrative focus on Anakin and his family. This isn’t shrinking the universe but instead I find making it so we are following one generation at a time of the same family and how the consequences of what is just as external to each era make up the reality of the era afterwards until the cycle closes. Much like how real life works. Luke still begins his journey through humble origins and goes through the motions of learning of his greater destiny as he did before the Prequels reframed it in certain ways. The only difference is we know Darth Vader already is his father when we get to his journey but arguably the story of the Originals was recontextualised to make it just as much his story as it is Luke’s and later Leia and her children. I still believe in the notion of anyone can be a Jedi but it’s a hard life and not a simple magic trick as The Force Awakens likes to present it as being. Being able to use the Force is one thing but picking up on Jedi Mind Tricks or Force Pull without any training feels like it’s compromising the principles of how being a Jedi is different from being a regular hero like Luke was in the Rebel Alliance or when Anakin won the podrace. Both scenarios are heroism but a Jedi is a different kind of hero.

Fair points also, I’d even agree that yeah being a Jedi is a hard life but where I differ is that it’s based on more the sacrifices you make and what you end up doing. Because as a Jedi, you’re in tune to the Force and thus you’re in tune to a mystical energy that connects all living beings. Some abilities allow you to even do things like see the history of an item which means you might see murder, destruction and far more horrible things. It’s a lot of responsibility to carry as a person for you have this great power that takes a lot of wisdom to use. I feel when you do things like say make Force Pull a difficult ability or make Jedi Mind Tricks the result of training and frame them as these hard abilities to use (Which I argue they’re not, Rey lives in a timeline where people know the Jedi and we’ve already seen through the Prequel Trilogy that one of the common abilities regular people know about at least is the Jedi Mind Trick.) then honestly, I feel the point of the Force has been missed. I think back to what we learned in ESB where Yoda’s whole spiel to Luke is about how learning to use the Force is not as much about standard training, it’s about believing in this mystical energy and surrendering yourself to it. Hence “Do or do not, there is no try.” because it’s either you accept this or you doubt yourself and things become harder and I feel TFA returned it to being that whereas so many Star Wars entries after the prequels kept pushing the idea that it is this hard thing to learn, that these simple abilities are actually master level powers when they’re not. It’s all about how efficiently you use them and how much you put into it.

That’s also what makes Rey being a nobody in TLJ notable. Because yes we’ve seen nobodies with the younglings and such but most of the truly important characters to Star Wars are connected in some capacity and this extends even to the EU where most of the successful main heroes are connected to characters we know already. Rey was poised to be the first main hero that wasn’t connected to anyone aside from maybe being Luke’s student on Ahch-To and in a way it seemed like that was gonna make the Sequel Trilogy be about the theme of legacy and how the Skywalkers and Jedi continued to inspire over the years in the same way that Star Wars had which still can be done of course with Rey being someone connected to the past but it takes away a great deal of that weight I feel and that it causes Star Wars to feel smaller as a result.

Stardust1138 said:

AspiringCreator said:

Stardust1138 said:

AspiringCreator said:

Stardust1138 said:

JadedSkywalker said:

I liked the aspect of the force being more democratic and mysterious and its choosing a neophyte no one to restore the balance. I liked that Last Jedi basically made the whole mutant inherited bloodline thing, irrelevant. Only for Rise to make Rey a Palpatine and undo the idea of Star Wars going back to the style of a the original where Luke was a no one, who had the courage to leave Tatooine and confront the Empire. Originally Luke was a brave kid who went on an adventure he wasn’t the son of a super-villain/mutant with the most mitochondrial DNA or midichlorians whatsits in existence to some prophecy. Its undermines the force and free will. Its junk.

The thing is George never said the Force was exclusive to bloodlines. I think what he says about is just the opposite from how both J.J. and Rian took it to mean.

He said:

"A lot of people get confused about the Force. They see it as some special thing that you can find and pick up and put it on your head and suddenly you have the Force. Whereas it’s always been designed so that every [living] being has the Force.

The amount of Force, which is like talent or intelligence, is different in every person. Some of it is inherited, but it’s no more than a talent. It’s not something you can acquire – it’s something you can learn to use. I have the power to lift that cup off the table using the Force, but I can’t do it unless I have been trained to do it."

And with the Whills. They tie into the idea of free will and destiny:

“The Whills are a microscopic, single-celled lifeform like amoeba, fungi, and bacteria. There’s something like 100.000 times more Whills than there are Midi-Chlorians, and there are about 10.000 times more Midi-Chlorians than there are human cells. The only microscopic entities that can go into the human cells are the Midi-Chlorians. They are born in the cells. The Midi-Chlorians provide the energy for human cells to split and create life. The Whills are single-celled animals that feed on the Force. The more of the Force there is, the better off they are. So they have a very intense symbiotic relationship with the Midi-Chlorians and the Midi-Chlorians effectively work for the Whills. It is estimated that we have 100 trillion microbes in our body and we are made up of about 90% bacteria and 10% human cells. So who is in service to whom?”

The reason we follow the Skywalker family isn’t because they’re more important than others who can also use the Force but because the saga was about Anakin and his family. Anakin and his family just had a greater destiny akin to God in a general sense. Some have greater destinies than others and it’s also your choice on if we want to act on it or ignore the call to something greater. Fate has a way a stopping in where it’s needed.

The argument I’d have here is that while George’s sentiment is nice as it’s a way of showing the inclusion of Midichlorians doesn’t mess with the Force and that it’s still ultimately about how everyone has the Force and the potential to use it? That doesn’t really matter here. While your reading is still absolutely valid, the prequels as they change the context of the OT and arguably what one sees maybe from the old EU makes this into a matter where it really feels like being strong in the Force requires you to be a part of a bloodline. Looking back at the OT, part of the appeal to me of the Force is that while in this moment we see Luke is the hero and that he’s learning the ways of the Force? He’s also an everyman and we hear it flows through every living being so you get the idea that you don’t have to be a Skywalker or a Kenobi or whoever to be a hero, the Force flows through everyone therefore everyone has the potential, some might have a bigger headstart on it than others but anyone can learn to use it.

The PT then made Anakin the Chosen One, a child born from a virgin birth that apparently was caused by manipulating Midichlorians and because of the framing of the movies, it’s more based on being born into that bloodline and the Skywalkers suddenly become the only family that really matters to this massive galaxy for almost every single issue revolves around them. Sure one can say it doesn’t matter and that it’s just this is the family the movies follow but the movies still have that kind of framing and later stories keep up with this. For being a galaxy from a long time ago, this universe feels tiny and the Force becomes more like inherited superpowers. Now of course that’s just how I personally read it from spending time with the universe and if you like that aspect then more power to you. But I’ve just got to say that I don’t really care what George says in this instance. Word of God can only go so far and considering how the movies portray it? It’s why I’m more grateful for movies like TLJ bucking that trend and bringing things to being more like the OT while still attempting to show respect to the PT because with how the movies and other portions of the saga framed things? It really felt like it was more about the bloodlines and not about someone in a sea of nobodies rising up and choosing to become someone.

I appreciate your read on things but I see the opposite. I actually like The Last Jedi in an alternate universe sort of way for the most part. However I think one thing it gets wrong is making Rey a “Nobody”. We’ve seen Nobodies use the Force and be Jedi before. The entire Jedi Order and arguably younglings are a bunch of nobodies. The stories just tended to keep the narrative focus on Anakin and his family. This isn’t shrinking the universe but instead I find making it so we are following one generation at a time of the same family and how the consequences of what is just as external to each era make up the reality of the era afterwards until the cycle closes. Much like how real life works. Luke still begins his journey through humble origins and goes through the motions of learning of his greater destiny as he did before the Prequels reframed it in certain ways. The only difference is we know Darth Vader already is his father when we get to his journey but arguably the story of the Originals was recontextualised to make it just as much his story as it is Luke’s and later Leia and her children. I still believe in the notion of anyone can be a Jedi but it’s a hard life and not a simple magic trick as The Force Awakens likes to present it as being. Being able to use the Force is one thing but picking up on Jedi Mind Tricks or Force Pull without any training feels like it’s compromising the principles of how being a Jedi is different from being a regular hero like Luke was in the Rebel Alliance or when Anakin won the podrace. Both scenarios are heroism but a Jedi is a different kind of hero.

Fair points also, I’d even agree that yeah being a Jedi is a hard life but where I differ is that it’s based on more the sacrifices you make and what you end up doing. Because as a Jedi, you’re in tune to the Force and thus you’re in tune to a mystical energy that connects all living beings. Some abilities allow you to even do things like see the history of an item which means you might see murder, destruction and far more horrible things. It’s a lot of responsibility to carry as a person for you have this great power that takes a lot of wisdom to use. I feel when you do things like say make Force Pull a difficult ability or make Jedi Mind Tricks the result of training and frame them as these hard abilities to use (Which I argue they’re not, Rey lives in a timeline where people know the Jedi and we’ve already seen through the Prequel Trilogy that one of the common abilities regular people know about at least is the Jedi Mind Trick.) then honestly, I feel the point of the Force has been missed. I think back to what we learned in ESB where Yoda’s whole spiel to Luke is about how learning to use the Force is not as much about standard training, it’s about believing in this mystical energy and surrendering yourself to it. Hence “Do or do not, there is no try.” because it’s either you accept this or you doubt yourself and things become harder and I feel TFA returned it to being that whereas so many Star Wars entries after the prequels kept pushing the idea that it is this hard thing to learn, that these simple abilities are actually master level powers when they’re not. It’s all about how efficiently you use them and how much you put into it.

That’s also what makes Rey being a nobody in TLJ notable. Because yes we’ve seen nobodies with the younglings and such but most of the truly important characters to Star Wars are connected in some capacity and this extends even to the EU where most of the successful main heroes are connected to characters we know already. Rey was poised to be the first main hero that wasn’t connected to anyone aside from maybe being Luke’s student on Ahch-To and in a way it seemed like that was gonna make the Sequel Trilogy be about the theme of legacy and how the Skywalkers and Jedi continued to inspire over the years in the same way that Star Wars had which still can be done of course with Rey being someone connected to the past but it takes away a great deal of that weight I feel and that it causes Star Wars to feel smaller as a result.

You again make some valid points but I think things such as where you say “Some abilities allow you to even do things like see the history of an item which means you might see murder, destruction and far more horrible things. It’s a lot of responsibility to carry as a person for you have this great power that takes a lot of wisdom to use.” was never really the case entirely in George’s canon. He never connected the Force to an object except for Holocrons. However they just held wisdom like information about locations of Force Sensitive children and secrets of the Jedi Order. Otherwise connecting things such as a lightsaber is a Disney canon invention or something from the Expanded Universe. Keep in mind though Rey also believes Luke to be a myth and the Jedi not to be real until Han tells her otherwise. During the Prequel era it’s a different context as we’re in a period where the Jedi have served as the guardians of peace and justice for a thousand years. It was through careful manipulation that Palpatine deceived everyone. By the time of The Force Awakens way of seeing the story it doesn’t make much sense for many people to know of the Jedi and what they actually did. We don’t get the full context surrounding Luke or his fallen Jedi Temple to make sense of it.

I’d say believing in yourself is part of it but that’s what makes it hard. It’s like when Luke tries to pull the lightsaber out of the snow on Hoth or trying to focus his concentration on the remote aboard the Falcon or when he’s fighting his father the first time or even when he’s attempting to lift the X-Wing out of the swamps of Dagobah. There’s a theme of difficulties. It’s all very difficult for him initially and it’s not until he learns to quiet his mind that he’s able to fully connect with the Force and feel it’s presence versus say Han who didn’t believe in it.

With the Force there’s some natural ability to it as Anakin was able to pass his Force test with the Jedi Council with flying colours but it’s difficult at the same time to do certain powers.

It’s not so much I think a Prequels issue but an issue that’s in A New Hope. We just don’t know the answer as to you.

I think it’s better served having it in a spinoff instead of the Skywalker family saga. There’s nothing inherently bad about following a new character who has no direct connection to what we know but I don’t believe personally it works in a story that we’re meant to be following a family through different eras that are interconnected through external and internal sequences. The Republic is the Empire and the aftermath of both will naturally have an affect on Luke and Leia. It makes no sense to me personally to follow a character unrelated to them in the final trilogy. I think it’s fine in another trilogy not beholden to the rules and contexts of what came before though. I think you still get the legacy with following a Solowalker Daughter and Solowalker Son but it’s more direct to concluding things established with the Mortis Arc and Anakin being the Chosen One. The story in essence begins with a Mother and Son and ends with a Mother and Daughter. It seems George was recontextualising the story to be a family affair versus just Anakin as the only literal Chosen One. It’s also as much Padme’s story. She gives away democracy in The Phantom Menace and Leia restores and becomes Supreme Chancellor in Episode IX as her daughter inherits the Jedi Order from Luke before he passes on. The feminine is what ulimately restores the Balance.

Once again very fair points. A lot of it I’d even say I could concede to though ultimately I disagree. That being said it gives me a lot to think about in regards to the whole universe and this discussion was at least fascinating and very polite. I think ultimately this comes down to just a difference in what we look for in Star Wars. Personally I really like the story of Luke, Anakin and the Skywalker family but I don’t feel it needs to end being strictly about them. The legacy sure is important and I’ll say that maybe it was a misstep to call this the conclusion to the Skywalker Saga when it could’ve been named like “the Legacy Saga” or something along those lines. Make it clear it concludes a nine-part story but that we’re no longer in Skywalker territory instead of leaving that up for interpretation. Regardless, I feel like their story is done and I don’t need more and I appreciate ST moving things away from that while still to me respecting the legacy. I also am someone who doesn’t really like the prequels or the old EU and has so far felt that this new era of Star Wars has been very enjoyable with the occasional bump.

Clearly you might disagree with a lot of this but I’m still glad to have read your thoughts. It certainly was more articulate and interesting to read than say the several shouting matches I’ve witnessed across social media about this. At the end of the day, it’s just we’re Star Wars fans who look for different things and I like that.

SparkySywer said:

The MCU’s “writing” is like the “writing” of a porno or an 80s video game. It’s expected to be there, but it’s not that important. It’s weak and barely existent because story isn’t the point. The point is to push your buttons for a bit, and the story’s only there because people aren’t yet ready to just watch two hour long SFX sequences like they are now ready to just play games and watch people having sex.

Star Wars, for what it’s worth, is at least supposed to be about the story. The overarching story may now be a train wreck, but the only reason the MCU isn’t a train wreck is because there’s nothing in the train to wreck it.

As someone who has watched all the MCU and ended up loving the majority of it? I’d say that’s being a little harsh but then again, I really dislike when people jump to pointing at the MCU as this pillar for perfect movie series when it just isn’t.

Emre1601 said:

AspiringCreator said:

Honestly, the Sequel Trilogy is simultaneously to me a great series of films… and some of the most frustrating.

I very much enjoyed reading your post, thank you.
 

One thing I think gets overlooked is that the Sequel films did attempt to pay homage to the Original Trilogy, to try and respect it and its legacy. Whereas George wrote so many inconsistencies into the Prequels, contradicting the OT, it felt anything but that. It was as if George was trying to reinvent Star Wars and his “grand plan”, and was quite happy to diminish the OT at the expense of his Prequel Trilogy to try and achieve this.

When I think of some of the issues that the Sequels have, I try and give them a little more of “a pass” just for that. That respect, and that trying to make three films more in keeping with the Originals, in spirit at least. TFA and TLJ are easier to do this for, and TROS is more difficult, as that is one crazy break neck film with far too much happening too fast for anything to sink in. For me, anyway. As you posted, another year to help production for the film to iron out some of its issues would have helped considerably.

I never got to respond to this but I do appreciate your thoughts. I do feel people kind of overlook that regardless of what they thought of the ST? It had a monumentally tall order. I don’t think even George Lucas if he got to do his ST would’ve been able to predict how much of a pain it was gonna be. I mean forget inconsistencies, it’s George’s story and he could do what he wished and it really was up to us if we liked it or not but the ST was something that people had speculated about for years. Hell I remember when it came out that George at one point considered the idea of having four trilogies that would go from Episode I all the way to Episode XII. Obviously that changed but that meant the idea of Episode VII, VIII and IX has been kicking around since the OT’s prime and the issue is that at a certain point? Everyone developed their own idea of what Star Wars is and should be so no matter what, they were gonna piss people off to a degree. The same happened with the prequels after all, the EU and then TCW. Honestly it makes me feel jealous of the children who will grow up with these movies who can just watch them all in one go with none of the emotional baggage and look at them as their own things and appreciate them for that, just like how people who watched the prequels when they were children without seeing any of the other Star Wars movies were able to appreciate them.

I think the biggest takeaways though from the ST and what has happened are a few things. The first is that it’s a perfect example of what happens of when you stubbornly try to force an idea that just is not viable anymore, the second is that if you can manage then delay a movie to ensure you can work out all the beats possible, be willing to accept that a franchise may not be the thing you came to it for and that you have to come to terms with that (You don’t have to accept it but eventually one has to make their peace with it.) and the biggest of all? Fandom toxicity is a cancer. People should remember that if it wasn’t for toxic fans? George would still own the franchise and be happy about it with maybe the extent of him being done with Star Wars just coming from him growing tired of speaking about the same few topics with every interviewer.

I think he made why he sold Lucasfilm pretty plain actually, he wanted to raise his daughter, retire. Enjoy his retirement, time with his wife. Wanted to open a museum. His age was the thing he kept talking about. He wasn’t going to spend his last ten years on Star Wars. He didn’t need the money. It did appeal to his vanity for all of five minutes that he might come back and do it all again and direct episode 7, but ultimately he decided against it.

Fans wanted sequels to episodes IV, VI and VI, and for him to relent on the originals. Lucas gave neither. He gave them prequel movies they didn’t want. Maybe Lucas figured they won’t like my sequels either, because he wanted to make sequels to the prequels instead of sequels.

Was he trolling when he had Vader yell NOOOOOOOOO! in Return of the Jedi, because Lucas knew fans hated it in Revenge of the Sith? Like when he said Empire Strikes Back was the worst film because he knew fans would read that and flip.

Replacing Shaw with Hayden his whole explanation for it didn’t make sense but i don’t think at the time he did that to anger OT fans. But the 2011 Blu Ray change might be trolling. Still not gaslighting like the things he says about the Greedo scene or having this one big script thing in 74 when there was barely one movie. Or the Oxymoron thing about not being able to give us the originals.

I personally prefer not to put the blame on Lucas for the toxicity. His attitude at times certainly wasn’t ideal and there are many criticisms one can make about the man but really there’s no reason for the guy to troll to me unless the fandom was already being so ridiculous. Plus these days I am less inclined to throw fans that bone because… No. Toxic behavior has been a thing for too long and it deserves to be called out.

JadedSkywalker said:

I liked the aspect of the force being more democratic and mysterious and its choosing a neophyte no one to restore the balance. I liked that Last Jedi basically made the whole mutant inherited bloodline thing, irrelevant. Only for Rise to make Rey a Palpatine and undo the idea of Star Wars going back to the style of the original where Luke was a no one, who had the courage to leave Tatooine and confront the Empire. Originally Luke was a brave kid who went on an adventure he wasn’t the son of a super-villain/mutant with the most mitochondrial DNA or midichlorians whatsits in existence to some prophecy. Its undermines the force and free will. Its junk.

Luke was always the son of a Jedi. Jedi didn’t start out being monks. That is a prequel thing. I think it is important to see both that any old nobody can be a Jedi, and that the force can run strong in a particular family. Anakin was a nobody. Luke was his son. Rey is Palpatine’s granddaughter (or daughter of his clone). Nothing can negate that Anakin and broom boy are nobodies. Most Jedi came from nobodies because the prequels made them monks - no attachments means no kids so no Jedi bloodlines. So there is a lot more to the saga that says a no-one can become the chosen one than that you have to be part of a bloodline.

Anakin wasn’t a nobody. Not by the time the PT was made. He was a virgin birth, a space jesus. That also retro-actively altered the perception of Luke too. That was dumb.

JadedSkywalker said:

Was he trolling when he had Vader yell NOOOOOOOOO! in Return of the Jedi, because Lucas knew fans hated it in Revenge of the Sith? Like when he said Empire Strikes Back was the worst film because he knew fans would read that and flip.

Replacing Shaw with Hayden his whole explanation for it didn’t make sense but i don’t think at the time he did that to anger OT fans. But the 2011 Blu Ray change might be trolling. Still not gaslighting like the things he says about the Greedo scene or having this one big script thing in 74 when there was barely one movie. Or the Oxymoron thing about not being able to give us the originals.

I think most of us around here are aware that Lucas plays it loose with the truth and accuracy.

Many fans in 1980 and even later in the 80’s felt TESB was the worst film. I did for many years. My opinion changed. And I don’t for a moment think that Lucas gave a single thought what fans wanted when he worked on the SE changes. I think he did what he wanted.

And Lucas did have a larger script. It basically went from ANH and leaving Tatooine, to Bespin, to Endor. Except Bespin was Imperial so it was kind of like the Death Star part of ANH, but on a city in the clouds. That was his big story. The script exists. I’ve read it. It is a huge story that would have made 2 movies, but with him taking the climactic space battle for ANH, he had to rework the rest of it which expanded it out to 3 films. But what he had was definitely more than 1 film in that script.

As for the originals. We are all aware around here of what can be done in restoring film. We know that the original version is easily within reach. It is not lost. But doing from the original negatives might not be possible. Like that has stopped anyone from restoring any classic film. They just can’t do it by running the original reels through a machine so it isn’t worth the effort as far as he is concerned.

yotsuya said:

JadedSkywalker said:

I liked the aspect of the force being more democratic and mysterious and its choosing a neophyte no one to restore the balance. I liked that Last Jedi basically made the whole mutant inherited bloodline thing, irrelevant. Only for Rise to make Rey a Palpatine and undo the idea of Star Wars going back to the style of the original where Luke was a no one, who had the courage to leave Tatooine and confront the Empire. Originally Luke was a brave kid who went on an adventure he wasn’t the son of a super-villain/mutant with the most mitochondrial DNA or midichlorians whatsits in existence to some prophecy. Its undermines the force and free will. Its junk.

Luke was always the son of a Jedi. Jedi didn’t start out being monks. That is a prequel thing. I think it is important to see both that any old nobody can be a Jedi, and that the force can run strong in a particular family. Anakin was a nobody. Luke was his son. Rey is Palpatine’s granddaughter (or daughter of his clone). Nothing can negate that Anakin and broom boy are nobodies. Most Jedi came from nobodies because the prequels made them monks - no attachments means no kids so no Jedi bloodlines. So there is a lot more to the saga that says a no-one can become the chosen one than that you have to be part of a bloodline.

I would believe this… if it wasn’t for the PT and several pieces of Star Wars media conflicting with this. Anakin for instance is not a nobody. Sure when we first see him in terms of the chronology he’s just a little slave boy on a desert planet and if we’re counting when we first see him in the franchise he’s just some big scary guy in armor… but TPM reveals he was born via virgin birth and the PT makes it clear he’s supposed to be the Chosen One, not the guy that a prophecy assumes is going to be the Chosen One but the actual Chosen One and while we can totally split hairs and mention how many Jedi are nobody? No one who’s actually important in the movies is a nobody and even if you want to try and argue that? There’s still the problem of Anakin being so important and so integral via this story that it makes it clear that if your name ain’t Skywalker? You are not someone who has a place in this story. And that’s not even getting into the EU which is loaded with characters that are just related to people we know for no reason other than making connections or the story just focusing on the same people. That’s why it was so important and meaningful when TLJ bucked the trend by having Rey revealed to be no one. We did this story before where the main character was secretly related to someone else and we did the story before that about that guy’s father and how he’s the most super awesome important dude in the Star Wars galaxy so it was genuinely refreshing to get a Star Wars story that showed that our main character was nobody. Then TROS came along, gave her the Palpatine heritage and even noted that “Oh you don’t just have power, you have his power.” which is just so forced and hackneyed. The Force is interesting to me because the OT made it about believing in yourself, it’s a mystical that surrounds and binds every living being together and with ESB, it gives the impression that anyone can use the Force if they clear their mind and set their heart to it. Hell it’s what makes the idea of “Force-sensitives” make sense because that tells me anyone can use the Force, it’s just some are more sensitive to it. But when you have the concept of midichlorians, say Anakin is the Chosen One and just keep making main characters who are connected in some way to those we know? People can say then all they want that Jedi can still be no one but there’s an asterisk there because all the important main characters have to be connected and somebody.

AspiringCreator said:

yotsuya said:

JadedSkywalker said:

I liked the aspect of the force being more democratic and mysterious and its choosing a neophyte no one to restore the balance. I liked that Last Jedi basically made the whole mutant inherited bloodline thing, irrelevant. Only for Rise to make Rey a Palpatine and undo the idea of Star Wars going back to the style of the original where Luke was a no one, who had the courage to leave Tatooine and confront the Empire. Originally Luke was a brave kid who went on an adventure he wasn’t the son of a super-villain/mutant with the most mitochondrial DNA or midichlorians whatsits in existence to some prophecy. Its undermines the force and free will. Its junk.

Luke was always the son of a Jedi. Jedi didn’t start out being monks. That is a prequel thing. I think it is important to see both that any old nobody can be a Jedi, and that the force can run strong in a particular family. Anakin was a nobody. Luke was his son. Rey is Palpatine’s granddaughter (or daughter of his clone). Nothing can negate that Anakin and broom boy are nobodies. Most Jedi came from nobodies because the prequels made them monks - no attachments means no kids so no Jedi bloodlines. So there is a lot more to the saga that says a no-one can become the chosen one than that you have to be part of a bloodline.

I would believe this… if it wasn’t for the PT and several pieces of Star Wars media conflicting with this. Anakin for instance is not a nobody. Sure when we first see him in terms of the chronology he’s just a little slave boy on a desert planet and if we’re counting when we first see him in the franchise he’s just some big scary guy in armor… but TPM reveals he was born via virgin birth and the PT makes it clear he’s supposed to be the Chosen One, not the guy that a prophecy assumes is going to be the Chosen One but the actual Chosen One and while we can totally split hairs and mention how many Jedi are nobody? No one who’s actually important in the movies is a nobody and even if you want to try and argue that? There’s still the problem of Anakin being so important and so integral via this story that it makes it clear that if your name ain’t Skywalker? You are not someone who has a place in this story. And that’s not even getting into the EU which is loaded with characters that are just related to people we know for no reason other than making connections or the story just focusing on the same people. That’s why it was so important and meaningful when TLJ bucked the trend by having Rey revealed to be no one. We did this story before where the main character was secretly related to someone else and we did the story before that about that guy’s father and how he’s the most super awesome important dude in the Star Wars galaxy so it was genuinely refreshing to get a Star Wars story that showed that our main character was nobody. Then TROS came along, gave her the Palpatine heritage and even noted that “Oh you don’t just have power, you have his power.” which is just so forced and hackneyed. The Force is interesting to me because the OT made it about believing in yourself, it’s a mystical that surrounds and binds every living being together and with ESB, it gives the impression that anyone can use the Force if they clear their mind and set their heart to it. Hell it’s what makes the idea of “Force-sensitives” make sense because that tells me anyone can use the Force, it’s just some are more sensitive to it. But when you have the concept of midichlorians, say Anakin is the Chosen One and just keep making main characters who are connected in some way to those we know? People can say then all they want that Jedi can still be no one but there’s an asterisk there because all the important main characters have to be connected and somebody.

I totally don’t see it that way.

yotsuya said:

AspiringCreator said:

yotsuya said:

JadedSkywalker said:

I liked the aspect of the force being more democratic and mysterious and its choosing a neophyte no one to restore the balance. I liked that Last Jedi basically made the whole mutant inherited bloodline thing, irrelevant. Only for Rise to make Rey a Palpatine and undo the idea of Star Wars going back to the style of the original where Luke was a no one, who had the courage to leave Tatooine and confront the Empire. Originally Luke was a brave kid who went on an adventure he wasn’t the son of a super-villain/mutant with the most mitochondrial DNA or midichlorians whatsits in existence to some prophecy. Its undermines the force and free will. Its junk.

Luke was always the son of a Jedi. Jedi didn’t start out being monks. That is a prequel thing. I think it is important to see both that any old nobody can be a Jedi, and that the force can run strong in a particular family. Anakin was a nobody. Luke was his son. Rey is Palpatine’s granddaughter (or daughter of his clone). Nothing can negate that Anakin and broom boy are nobodies. Most Jedi came from nobodies because the prequels made them monks - no attachments means no kids so no Jedi bloodlines. So there is a lot more to the saga that says a no-one can become the chosen one than that you have to be part of a bloodline.

I would believe this… if it wasn’t for the PT and several pieces of Star Wars media conflicting with this. Anakin for instance is not a nobody. Sure when we first see him in terms of the chronology he’s just a little slave boy on a desert planet and if we’re counting when we first see him in the franchise he’s just some big scary guy in armor… but TPM reveals he was born via virgin birth and the PT makes it clear he’s supposed to be the Chosen One, not the guy that a prophecy assumes is going to be the Chosen One but the actual Chosen One and while we can totally split hairs and mention how many Jedi are nobody? No one who’s actually important in the movies is a nobody and even if you want to try and argue that? There’s still the problem of Anakin being so important and so integral via this story that it makes it clear that if your name ain’t Skywalker? You are not someone who has a place in this story. And that’s not even getting into the EU which is loaded with characters that are just related to people we know for no reason other than making connections or the story just focusing on the same people. That’s why it was so important and meaningful when TLJ bucked the trend by having Rey revealed to be no one. We did this story before where the main character was secretly related to someone else and we did the story before that about that guy’s father and how he’s the most super awesome important dude in the Star Wars galaxy so it was genuinely refreshing to get a Star Wars story that showed that our main character was nobody. Then TROS came along, gave her the Palpatine heritage and even noted that “Oh you don’t just have power, you have his power.” which is just so forced and hackneyed. The Force is interesting to me because the OT made it about believing in yourself, it’s a mystical that surrounds and binds every living being together and with ESB, it gives the impression that anyone can use the Force if they clear their mind and set their heart to it. Hell it’s what makes the idea of “Force-sensitives” make sense because that tells me anyone can use the Force, it’s just some are more sensitive to it. But when you have the concept of midichlorians, say Anakin is the Chosen One and just keep making main characters who are connected in some way to those we know? People can say then all they want that Jedi can still be no one but there’s an asterisk there because all the important main characters have to be connected and somebody.

I totally don’t see it that way.

I… totally respect that.

I thought the ST was a very, very serious blow overall to the credibility and seriousness as a franchise to Star Wars.

TFA resets the entire galaxy off screen with little to no explanation or effort. George Lucas always had an expanding world and story. TFA also added very little in the form of new looks, technology and the Forcr was very slowly creeping in power to an unrecognizable level. I don’t have a problem with new abilities but once we start breaking in universe rules that begins jumping the shark.

TLJ basically cemented the way these new stories would go. Luke and the old guard are broken, weak, and dumb while the new empowered crew has to save the day. TLJ supposedly has a theme about failure. Yes, everyone failed. Except Rey. She successfully resists the dark side, resists Kylo, lifts countless rocks to aide the rebels, escapes snokes damaged ship and steals his private craft, bests Luke in mock combat and is able to show she is truly greater then all the other miserable failures in the film.

Putting that aside, the parking ticket side plot was really dumb and the whole ship chase wasn’t exciting. The movie did look absolutely gorgeous however.

TROS was horrendous and it simply amazes me (well it doesn’t if you think about all the things that JJ Abrams’s has in common with everyone else in Hollywood) that people like him fail upward.

The plot of TROS made little sense, and the emperor returning only to be defeated easily by Rey was a slap in the face to long time fans of the movies invested in Anakin Skywalkers redemption in the eyes of his son.

Overall the ST has accelerated the death knell for Star Wars. The magic is gone and you can’t recapture it because the people who run the franchise don’t understand what made it successful in the first place.

James1027 said:

I thought the ST was a very, very serious blow overall to the credibility and seriousness as a franchise to Star Wars.

TFA resets the entire galaxy off screen with little to no explanation or effort. George Lucas always had an expanding world and story. TFA also added very little in the form of new looks, technology and the Forcr was very slowly creeping in power to an unrecognizable level. I don’t have a problem with new abilities but once we start breaking in universe rules that begins jumping the shark.

I feel like whenever we get into the territory of breaking in-universe rules? We should point out something. The rules of a movie universe are never usually concrete, they have room to be bent and changed. That’s what makes the Force in these films work so well. In ANH we get a vague explanation on what it is and see it can influence the weak-minded and choke people with such precision you can pinch a windpipe closed. But because Lucas didn’t establish concrete rules? He could expand upon it by then showing it can move objects in ESB and of course the lightning in ROTJ. It was only really the EU that started obsessing about strict rules for how the Force should work and later the prequels of all the things they chose not to expand upon decided Force abilities should be restricted to what we’ve seen before. On that note, the Force… kind of did more insane things in the EU than it ever did in the ST.

TLJ basically cemented the way these new stories would go. Luke and the old guard are broken, weak, and dumb while the new empowered crew has to save the day. TLJ supposedly has a theme about failure. Yes, everyone failed. Except Rey. She successfully resists the dark side, resists Kylo, lifts countless rocks to aide the rebels, escapes snokes damaged ship and steals his private craft, bests Luke in mock combat and is able to show she is truly greater then all the other miserable failures in the film.

Well Luke also succeeded in saving the Resistance and becoming more powerful than one could possibly imagine, Poe learned the lesson about being a smarter leader and Finn learned that how they win and fight is important along with just stopping the bad guy. Also Rey failed to turn Kylo to the light, failed to see Luke’s point that things weren’t just gonna play out like they did 30 years ago and still struggled with the Dark Side by going straight to it and if you’re gonna mention that? We should remember that Anakin was propped up in the prequels as being the chosen one who could be even more powerful than Yoda and the canon acts like this prophecy is not something that was just speculated about and instead was actually how the universe was supposed to play out and on top of that he destroyed the Trade Federation ship when he was nine.

Overall the ST has accelerated the death knell for Star Wars. The magic is gone and you can’t recapture it because the people who run the franchise don’t understand what made it successful in the first place.

I think The Mandalorian, Andor, Obi-Wan Kenobi, TCW S7, Bad Batch and more would like to have a word with you on that. The thing is, Lucasfilm isn’t about just trying to appease the same old fans who have this rigid idea of what Star Wars is. The old EU was all about the continuing adventures of Luke, Han and Leia in part because when the EU was made, it was a way to keep Star Wars going without any new movies and of course what people want to know is what happened next. That being said, EU writers also made tons of choices based on a desire to not upset Lucas and as a result, played things safe which works alright when we’re talking books and comics but when it comes to movies and shows? If you’re gonna have Star Wars continue, you can’t just dip your hands into the same well of what came before, you have to do new things. You’ve got to allow yourself to explore new angles of old-school characters.

AspiringCreator said:

James1027 said:

TLJ basically cemented the way these new stories would go. Luke and the old guard are broken, weak, and dumb while the new empowered crew has to save the day. TLJ supposedly has a theme about failure. Yes, everyone failed. Except Rey. She successfully resists the dark side, resists Kylo, lifts countless rocks to aide the rebels, escapes snokes damaged ship and steals his private craft, bests Luke in mock combat and is able to show she is truly greater then all the other miserable failures in the film.

Well Luke also succeeded in saving the Resistance and becoming more powerful than one could possibly imagine, Poe learned the lesson about being a smarter leader and Finn learned that how they win and fight is important along with just stopping the bad guy. Also Rey failed to turn Kylo to the light, failed to see Luke’s point that things weren’t just gonna play out like they did 30 years ago and still struggled with the Dark Side by going straight to it and if you’re gonna mention that?

Yeah, I completely agree with you on this 1 part. Rey is constantly failing at literally everything in the 8th movie and people come out of it thinking she’s a Mary Sue? Like what? Were people paying any attention during the course of the movie? She fails to convince Luke to train her, R2 does that, she fails Luke’s first lesson at first and immediately goes to the dark side, she messes up her lightsaber training by losing focus and destroying the rock, and she’s not able to do anything to Snoke and needs Kylo Ren to save her ass, she spends most of the fight with the pretorian guards fighting 1-2 of them whilst Kylo Ren kills the rest, only being able to help out at the last second, she fails to turn Kylo Ren back to the light side of the force. She also fails to convince Luke to help out the Resistance and come out of hiding, Yoda does that. The only thing Rey succeeds at in The Last Jedi is knocking down Luke who clearly wasn’t going all out or trying to hurt her, fighting off some of the tie fighters on Crait and lifting a bunch of rocks to save the Resistance. I definitely understand criticisms of her being a Mary Sue in episodes 7 and 9, but she’s the complete opposite of a Mary Sue in episode 8 in which she fails in literally everything that she sets out to do through the entire film. Also, the Old Guard are literally the only characters who are competent in episode 8, what film are people watching? The supposedly “new empowered crew” literally screws up and gets nearly everyone in the Resistance Killed whereas if Poe had listened to Leia and Holdo in the first place none of that would have happened but apparently them failing so hard that they almost singlehandedly destroy the entire resistance is them saving the day? The only reason the entire Resistance doesn’t die is because Leia wakes up from her coma and shoots Poe into unconsciousness, and the only reason Rey can lift the rocks to save the Resistance is because Luke Skywalker projects himself onto the planet to stall Kylo Ren. Come on now The Last Jedi isn’t a perfect movie and clearly didn’t do a good enough job at relating its themes and what it was trying to do to the audience, but I fail to see how the old guard is portrayed as incompetent

daveybjones999 said:

AspiringCreator said:

James1027 said:

TLJ basically cemented the way these new stories would go. Luke and the old guard are broken, weak, and dumb while the new empowered crew has to save the day. TLJ supposedly has a theme about failure. Yes, everyone failed. Except Rey. She successfully resists the dark side, resists Kylo, lifts countless rocks to aide the rebels, escapes snokes damaged ship and steals his private craft, bests Luke in mock combat and is able to show she is truly greater then all the other miserable failures in the film.

Well Luke also succeeded in saving the Resistance and becoming more powerful than one could possibly imagine, Poe learned the lesson about being a smarter leader and Finn learned that how they win and fight is important along with just stopping the bad guy. Also Rey failed to turn Kylo to the light, failed to see Luke’s point that things weren’t just gonna play out like they did 30 years ago and still struggled with the Dark Side by going straight to it and if you’re gonna mention that?

Yeah, I completely agree with you on this 1 part. Rey is constantly failing at literally everything in the 8th movie and people come out of it thinking she’s a Mary Sue? Like what? Were people paying any attention during the course of the movie? She fails to convince Luke to train her, R2 does that, she fails Luke’s first lesson at first and immediately goes to the dark side, she messes up her lightsaber training by losing focus and destroying the rock, and she’s not able to do anything to Snoke and needs Kylo Ren to save her ass, she spends most of the fight with the pretorian guards fighting 1-2 of them whilst Kylo Ren kills the rest, only being able to help out at the last second, she fails to turn Kylo Ren back to the light side of the force. She also fails to convince Luke to help out the Resistance and come out of hiding, Yoda does that. The only thing Rey succeeds at in The Last Jedi is knocking down Luke who clearly wasn’t going all out or trying to hurt her, fighting off some of the tie fighters on Crait and lifting a bunch of rocks to save the Resistance. I definitely understand criticisms of her being a Mary Sue in episodes 7 and 9, but she’s the complete opposite of a Mary Sue in episode 8 in which she fails in literally everything that she sets out to do through the entire film. Also, the Old Guard are literally the only characters who are competent in episode 8, what film are people watching? The supposedly “new empowered crew” literally screws up and gets nearly everyone in the Resistance Killed whereas if Poe had listened to Leia and Holdo in the first place none of that would have happened but apparently them failing so hard that they almost singlehandedly destroy the entire resistance is them saving the day? The only reason the entire Resistance doesn’t die is because Leia wakes up from her coma and shoots Poe into unconsciousness, and the only reason Rey can lift the rocks to save the Resistance is because Luke Skywalker projects himself onto the planet to stall Kylo Ren. Come on now The Last Jedi isn’t a perfect movie and clearly didn’t do a good enough job at relating its themes and what it was trying to do to the audience, but I fail to see how the old guard is portrayed as incompetent

I’ve always felt whenever I hear complaints about Rey being a “Mary Sue”? I honestly wonder if we’re consuming the same franchise because if one does that? I feel then they should judge the rest of the series because by their logic? Plenty of characters fit the bill of being a Mary Sue. Luke fits it, Anakin fits it, Starkiller fits it. Honestly I feel like I’d be more understanding if it was just said that they didn’t like Rey as a character and left it as that.

Servii said:

The supposedly “new empowered crew” literally screws up and gets nearly everyone in the Resistance Killed whereas if Poe had listened to Leia and Holdo in the first place none of that would have happened but apparently them failing so hard that they almost singlehandedly destroy the entire resistance is them saving the day? The only reason the entire Resistance doesn’t die is because Leia wakes up from her coma and shoots Poe into unconsciousness

If Poe had listened to Leia, the Dreadnought would have followed the Resistance fleet through hyperspace and killed them all anyway with its super mega “fleet killer” cannon. Also, Leia stunning Poe was completely overkill.

As for Rey, she basically doesn’t get trained in this movie. She teaches Luke more than he teaches her. And she still kicks the Praetorian guards’ butts and lifts a mountain of boulders seemingly effortlessly. And Kylo refusing to turn to the Light is moreso just a reflection of Kylo being a PoS, not Rey failing at something. She’s utterly morally superior in every situation. It’s not like with Luke and Yoda where Yoda is the source of wisdom and power that Luke needs to emulate. Rey is simply better than Luke, already. She didn’t need him at all.

Yes Rey does remind Luke of what he was fighting for, and acts as a moral guidepost for him, but Yoda is the one that convinces Luke, not Rey. But how is Rey doing that somehow make her a better and more powerful Jedi than Luke. Also, I wasn’t talking about the Dreadnaught I was talking about Holdo’s plan and I roped Leia into it because she agreed with Holdo’s plan. If Poe listened to Holdo the First Order wouldn’t have destroyed the resistance that is a fact. And how is Rey’s inability to turn Ben to the light not a failing of her and just Kylo being a PoS. Luke literally tells her that she’s wrong and won’t be able to turn Ben to the light side when she explains it to him, that’s 100% a failure of Rey. Also Rey does not kick the pretorians guards butts Kylo does you need to rewatch the sequence if you think that. There are like 8 of them, Rey kills 1 of them near the beginning, then spends the rest of the fight dealing with 2 of the others while Kylo Ren singlehandedly fights the other 5 guards only managing to kill 4 with Rey saving him from the 5th one by throwing him the lightsaber. Also How is Rey lifting rocks some powerful Jedi feat, but projecting yourself onto another planet isn’t.

AspiringCreator said:

daveybjones999 said:

AspiringCreator said:

James1027 said:

TLJ basically cemented the way these new stories would go. Luke and the old guard are broken, weak, and dumb while the new empowered crew has to save the day. TLJ supposedly has a theme about failure. Yes, everyone failed. Except Rey. She successfully resists the dark side, resists Kylo, lifts countless rocks to aide the rebels, escapes snokes damaged ship and steals his private craft, bests Luke in mock combat and is able to show she is truly greater then all the other miserable failures in the film.

Well Luke also succeeded in saving the Resistance and becoming more powerful than one could possibly imagine, Poe learned the lesson about being a smarter leader and Finn learned that how they win and fight is important along with just stopping the bad guy. Also Rey failed to turn Kylo to the light, failed to see Luke’s point that things weren’t just gonna play out like they did 30 years ago and still struggled with the Dark Side by going straight to it and if you’re gonna mention that?

Yeah, I completely agree with you on this 1 part. Rey is constantly failing at literally everything in the 8th movie and people come out of it thinking she’s a Mary Sue? Like what? Were people paying any attention during the course of the movie? She fails to convince Luke to train her, R2 does that, she fails Luke’s first lesson at first and immediately goes to the dark side, she messes up her lightsaber training by losing focus and destroying the rock, and she’s not able to do anything to Snoke and needs Kylo Ren to save her ass, she spends most of the fight with the pretorian guards fighting 1-2 of them whilst Kylo Ren kills the rest, only being able to help out at the last second, she fails to turn Kylo Ren back to the light side of the force. She also fails to convince Luke to help out the Resistance and come out of hiding, Yoda does that. The only thing Rey succeeds at in The Last Jedi is knocking down Luke who clearly wasn’t going all out or trying to hurt her, fighting off some of the tie fighters on Crait and lifting a bunch of rocks to save the Resistance. I definitely understand criticisms of her being a Mary Sue in episodes 7 and 9, but she’s the complete opposite of a Mary Sue in episode 8 in which she fails in literally everything that she sets out to do through the entire film. Also, the Old Guard are literally the only characters who are competent in episode 8, what film are people watching? The supposedly “new empowered crew” literally screws up and gets nearly everyone in the Resistance Killed whereas if Poe had listened to Leia and Holdo in the first place none of that would have happened but apparently them failing so hard that they almost singlehandedly destroy the entire resistance is them saving the day? The only reason the entire Resistance doesn’t die is because Leia wakes up from her coma and shoots Poe into unconsciousness, and the only reason Rey can lift the rocks to save the Resistance is because Luke Skywalker projects himself onto the planet to stall Kylo Ren. Come on now The Last Jedi isn’t a perfect movie and clearly didn’t do a good enough job at relating its themes and what it was trying to do to the audience, but I fail to see how the old guard is portrayed as incompetent

I’ve always felt whenever I hear complaints about Rey being a “Mary Sue”? I honestly wonder if we’re consuming the same franchise because if one does that? I feel then they should judge the rest of the series because by their logic? Plenty of characters fit the bill of being a Mary Sue. Luke fits it, Anakin fits it, Starkiller fits it. Honestly I feel like I’d be more understanding if it was just said that they didn’t like Rey as a character and left it as that.

I will disagree with Luke being a Gary Stu. He trains and struggles a lot more than Rey ever does, even though I don’t think Rey is a Mary Sue I can understand that a little in episode 7. But your point about the other protagonists still stands.