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Terminator Thread — Page 4

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What films have done that?

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Kill Bill. Tarantino was originally against shooting Super 35, but loved the grain results in the B&W opening scene and the scene with Bill and the Bride.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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Oh, thought you meant war films . Sorry.

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They're not filming in Super35, they're either damaging their film, desaturating it, forcing grain, or combinations of them.


ahhh gotcha!
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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steering things back on topic, I hope they can pull off a terminator flick without Arnie. It's bad enough that they had to leave behind Jim Cameron.
"Who's scruffy-lookin'?" - Han Solo
"I wish my lawn was emo so it would cut itself." -sybeman
"You know, putting animals in the microwave is not a good idea. I had to learn that one the hard way." -seanwookie
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Originally posted by: Switch Radic
steering things back on topic, I hope they can pull off a terminator flick without Arnie. It's bad enough that they had to leave behind Jim Cameron.


They didn't leave Jim Cameron behind he refused the project after ten friggin years of studio negosiation. John Mostow has proven he is a fine directer who was able to live up to the respect of Jim Camerons franchise.
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Says you Jimbo, no one else here seems to agree that Mostow lived up to Cameron. Sure your entitled to your opinion.

What people tend to forget is Hollywood is all about $$$$ first and artistic credibility second. Hence why movies like T3, Freddy vs Jason, AvP get made with different directors than the originals. You think studio Exec's care about the stories/characters we love? You think they care about preserving the feel of the previous films? As long as they can make a profit on a movie franchise/someone's vision (eg Cameron's "Terminator") they will do anything to make it happen.

Look at George Lucas and Lucasfilm. There's all the evidence you need about the relationship between studio executives and the artist.
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I was bummed that Kane Hodder was unceremoniously tossed aside for FVJ when for the last decade he was the only person keeping the flame alive.

Englund vs Hodder would have meant something more than just Englund vs some random stunt guy.

As to Mostow there's a great quote in Tim Burton's Ed Wood where Martin Landau's Bela Lugosi is mouthing off about Boris Karloff. Just change Karloff to Mostow and you have my opinion of that director.
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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Originally posted by: Figrin_Dan
Says you Jimbo, no one else here seems to agree that Mostow lived up to Cameron. Sure your entitled to your opinion.

What people tend to forget is Hollywood is all about $$$$ first and artistic credibility second. Hence why movies like T3, Freddy vs Jason, AvP get made with different directors than the originals. You think studio Exec's care about the stories/characters we love? You think they care about preserving the feel of the previous films? As long as they can make a profit on a movie franchise/someone's vision (eg Cameron's "Terminator") they will do anything to make it happen.

Look at George Lucas and Lucasfilm. There's all the evidence you need about the relationship between studio executives and the artist.


The Freddy and Jason series were always one big joke ball. As I stated in the other thread Alien versus Predator is a movie brought horribly down by studio censorship. Really Terminator 3 is the movie that I was expecting to suck and was pleasantly surprised just how good it was. Not only did it not suck it was a really good movie. And most importantly. JIM CAMERON LIKES TERMINATOR 3. He believes Mostow did a good job with his franchise. He stated in the same interview that he hates Alien 3. The first Terminator is a masterpeice. Its simply one of the best scifi action flicks ever made. Terminator 2 is a huge letdown. I actually saw Terminator 2 first. I enjoyed it but I didn't love the Terminator franchise until seeing the first. Terminator 3 is not the masterpeice the first movie was or the disaster then many continued franchises become. Its a very good movie thats definutly worth seeing. If for anything for Kristanna Loken.
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As stated before, AVP is the director's cut, not studio censored.

T2 is considered one of the greatest sci-fi films ever made. T3 is alright. Nothing special but worthy of the name.

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Originally posted by: bad_karma24
As stated before, AVP is the director's cut, not studio censored.

T2 is considered one of the greatest sci-fi films ever made. T3 is alright. Nothing special but worthy of the name.


First of all go read the AVP thread. I posted an article that proves studio censorship. An R rated directers cut is headed for DVD. Terminator 2 had redeaming factors like Robert Patricks preformance and state of the art effects. Though I personally consider Jurassic Park not Terminator 2 as the breakthrough digital movie. Since that was the first time digital effects realistically created a real creature. Terminator 2 is filled with flaws. Goody toshoes Arnie was awful. He goes from the Ultimate kick ass villian to "Why do you cry." Not even Arnie could make shitty dialog like that work. In Terminator 3 Arnie was still the protecter but he is less emotional and didn't have to take orders from some little punk. Terminator 2 John Connor was just a whinny brat. I honestly couldn't stand that kid. The future of mankind hah. Hardly the great man Kyle described. Did you know the reason he was replaced for the third movie was that he was a pot head. While the first movie was a realsitic scifi movie the second one destroys that with the T-1000. Possibly the most impossible scifi creation ever. The laws of physics prevent a machine like that from functioning. Though he was pretty cool but its all fluff. Possibly the worst thing was it totally fucked the ass of the first movies time travel theroys. Terminator 2 is alright I guess but considering one the greatest scifi films makes no sense to me.
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It's called a deep sci-fi film. Sorry that it bothers you that Arnold was emotional but there's these things called themes (take any Literature class...)

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Originally posted by: bad_karma24
It's called a deep sci-fi film. Sorry that it bothers you that Arnold was emotional but there's these things called themes (take any Literature class...)


He is as John Connor put it a "fucking machine" His kind were built to wipe out the human race. Even so emotional acting was never Arnies strong point. He will always be the king of action. Its like Jim Carry taking drama. Actors should stick to what they are good at. Did he really have to take orders from that punk. I just couldn't stand that kid. You call it deep but its not its just such a rediculous failed attempt. Micheal Behiens preformance as Kyle was very deep and personally showed that Jim Cameron can make intellegent action flicks. Its really unusual he is also responsible for Terminator 2.
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The Terminator is a love story as much as it is a story about killer cyborgs from the future.
It's the story of a young woman who learns to deal with the greatest resposibility of all, namely being the mother of the future and a chronoported soldier who learns that there's more to life than death and fighting. On top of this it's also the story of an unstoppable machine bent on assassination.

Terminator 2 is the story of a kid coming of age and reconciling his relationship with his mother and of an unstoppable machine protector who learns the value of human life and begins to experience real emotions. On top of this the characters are being chased by one of the best narrative excuses for a villainous special effect yet devised.

T3 is explosions, oneliners, bad CGI and contradictory and incoherent storytelling. It's in every way an emotionally and intellectually empty vessel and is representative of all that is bad about Hollywood's big summer blockbuster films.
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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I think you're being a bit harsh on T3 personally. For the fact that it didn't have Cameron, nor Hamilton I was fairly impressed with it. Definetly the worst of the series, but an above average movie with decent performances. Though some of the humor was a bit annoying.

T2 was one of those rare sequels that depending on your view surpassed the original (GF II and Aliens fall here too).

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I posted this in the other thread right before it got back on topic was so it may have been overlooked but this is one of the reasons I find T3 to be so inconsistent with the James Cameron Terminator films.

Changing the past is impossible.

Time Travel.

The time-theory at work in the first two Terminator films is the very antithesis of the "No Fate" credo. And I'm quite certain that James Cameron was being intentionally ironic in leading his characters to believe that they could avert their fates.

T1 and T2 both operate as a causality loop brought about by a predestination paradox.

I'm not going to attempt to reconcile the events of T3 with The Terminator and T2 because T3 breaks the series' internal logic and time loop theory as laid down by James Cameron with the simple fact that it has moved Judgement Day. That isn't possible in James Cameron's Terminator films as the past cannot be altered only caused.

I'll explain why.

The great irony of the first two films is that as much as the characters would like to believe that "the future is not set" they are wrong.

Cameron's causal loop begins in T1 with the arrival of Terminator and Kyle Reese. Looking at the timeline from a linear and objective standpoint things progress as normal until 1984 when suddenly two travellers, or chrononauts, from 2029 show up.

There was no 'original' and alternate timeline where someone other than Kyle Reese was John's father. There is only the one timeline, the one they're in, and when that timeline hit 1984, these two chrononauts simply show up having been displaced from 2029. The events of the first film take place and Sarah Connor is impregnated, Kyle is killed and the Terminator is destroyed. Then the microprocessor chassis is recovered from the Cyberdyne factory floor and the research into neural-net computers begins, Cyberdyne builds an empire and secures defense contracts including the SkyNet program for SACNORAD. Meanwhile Sarah goes into hiding and gives birth to John who will grow up to one day lead the human resistance to victory against the machines.

The damaged T-800 chip left at the Cyberdyne factory was always the genesis for neural-net processors. Kyle Reese was always John Connor's father and Judgement Day was always August 29th 1997.

Time travel in this universe cannot change the past it can only cause it. Travellers to the past become the cause for events whose effects have always been.

In the T2 Extreme DVD Cameron states that this concept of effect coming before cause, a popular conception of time travel in metaphysical circles, was his intention with both films. The causal loop prohibits change to the past because the traveller travels to their own past. Their OWN past. THE past. The past that has already occurred.

Since the past has already occurred any travel to the past has already occurred. Any 'changes' made by the traveller have already occurred and so the traveller can have no effect on the past.

In T2 (script) we learn that SkyNet has sent a new model Terminator right after it sent the first one, or possibly right before, just before the rebels took out the Cheyenne Mountain SkyNet mainframe and stormed the L.A. based complex.

So the forty-five year old John Connor of 2029 chooses and sends a specific CSM101 T-800 back through time because he remembers its brutal features and the events of 1994 when he was a ten year old kid. He is doing that which he was always going to do. It was predestined, the future may not be set but for adult John meddling with time travel means that it's not over even when it's over. He's caught, not irrevocably, in a causality loop. For his forty-five year old self the unknown future has only just begun.

The Terminator he met when he was a ten year old kid was sent back through time BECAUSE he remembered meeting it when he was a kid, he sent it because he had to, because it had always been sent. The Terminator that he sends was always sent to the past to stop the T-1000 and it always stops the T-1000 from killing young John.

SkyNet should really know better, it should realise that it cannot change the past because the past has happened and it wasn't changed. Sending something back in order to stop something which has happened from happening in this universe is a futile effort. There can be no changes to the timeline only effects whose causes are yet to happen.

Because John is alive and giving SkyNet hell in 2029 his past is safe because he is alive. John knows that when he sends Kyle to 1984 his comrade will become his father, he knows this because his mother told him. Both he and SkyNet are using the Time Displacement Equipment to bring about the causes for events which have already happened. SkyNet has to send the CSM 101 T-800 Terminator to 1984 because there was a CSM 101 T-800 Terminator that arrived in 1984. It failed, but it still had to be sent because it had already arrived, as evidenced by the existing order of past events, aka history. John has to send Kyle because Kyle is his dad.

Apart from Dyson's death in T2 neither the T-1000 nor John's pet Terminator have much effect on the timeline, rather intentionally from Cameron's P.O.V. I'd wager. But since Both CSM101 T-800s, Kyle and the T-1000 all come from a 2029 where Judgement Day occurred, and have all travelled to their own past, aka THE past, the past of their future, that means that Dyson always died in this way on that day in an explosion at the Cyberdyne building.

Unfortunately for his family, his death, although it was always destined to occur the way it did, was a futile death as SkyNet still bombed the world to hell on August 29th 1997.

T3 messes with this timeline. Not just by delaying the date of Judgement Day but whereas in the T2 Extreme DVD commentary Cameron states that T2 takes place at the beginning of 1994 while T3 tries to convince us that John Connor was 13 during the events of the film.

T3 changes the timeline and the very physics laid down in the previous two films by the creator, ("all hail the mighty Jim"), and in order to be consistent you must play by the rules. T3 plays by its own rules and is at odds with the two REAL Terminator films.

This also applies to the changed future coda in the T2 special edition, since the past cannot be changed and everything before the timetravellers began their chronoportation sequences is consideredd the past for them, the 'unwritten future' only truly begins when John finally defeats SkyNet in 2029.
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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First of all you can't critizes Terminator 3 for its screwed up dates. All three movies have screwed up dates

1. The cop mentions the date is Thursday May 12. May 12 1984 was a Saturday.

2. Terminator 2 takes place in 1995. The Terminator mentions Judgement Day happens in 1997. Three years from now. Do the math

3. It mentions John Connor was 13 in Terminator 2 and also uses three year period between 1995 and 1997.
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Originally posted by: jimbo
First of all you can't critizes Terminator 3 for its screwed up dates. All three movies have screwed up dates

1. The cop mentions the date is Thursday May 12. May 12 1984 was a Saturday.


James Cameron wrote The Terminator in 1983 for a same year release, however producer Dino de Laurentiis had Schwarzenegger held to contract to film Conan The Destroyer in the intervening time so Cameron used that time to write Aliens and Rambo II while working on the storyboards for Terminator thus making the film a better work of art in the final product. The studio, Hemdale, decided that 1984 would be more current than setting a film in the previous year.

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2. Terminator 2 takes place in 1995. The Terminator mentions Judgement Day happens in 1997. Three years from now. Do the math


On the T2 Extreme DVD James Cameron mentions that T2 is set in the summer of 1994/1995. The beginning of 1995 plus 1995, 1996 and 1997 until August equals three years, not exactly but more or less.

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3. It mentions John Connor was 13 in Terminator 2 and also uses three year period between 1995 and 1997.


John was nine or ten in T2. Not thirteen.
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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The police screen says he is ten years old. He was born in 1985. So Terminator 2 takes place in 1995. So the three year thing makes no sense. I agree with you on time travel but I believe it was Terminator 2 not Terminator 3 that fucks with the first movies time travel theroys. He filmed a scene where Judgement Day was stoped. Its really awful and if it was left in Terminator 2 would have sucked. Also the first movie showed time loops like John Connors concievement, the chip in the lab, and Sarahs picture. There are no such Time loops in Terminator 2. Yet there are a couple in Terminator 3. Sarahs grave. The Terminator knows about it. Where did he get this explaination. Skynet knew nothing of Connors mother so wouldn't know that. John also didn't know where she was buried. The only explaination was the Kate programed this information based on her previous experiance with the Terminator. It also shows that the T-X started the war by using her machine programing power to program Skynet for evil. How Judgement Day begins fits Kyles explaination perfectly. In fact one line "It decided our fate in a microsecond" fits Terminator 3 better then Terminator 2. Thats a bit thought provocing. Really in Terminator 3 it shows that John nieve child self believed in No Fate. His mature adult self tells him that the war is inevidible. Humanity will fall and the machines will rise.
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T3 is a brainless action exploitation flick made solely for brand/actor recognition and product marketing purposes. I'm not going to even deign to discuss it. It's not worthy of thought.

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Originally posted by: jimbo
The police screen says he is ten years old. He was born in 1985. So Terminator 2 takes place in 1995. So the three year thing makes no sense.


Officer Joe 'Lucky' Austin's dashboard computer screen read-out lists John Connor's birthdate as 02-28-85 and nothing more about it, not his age or the current date. The year is open to interpretation, at least it was until Cameron mentioned that the film is set around the end of 1994 and the beginning of 1995. So three years to half way through 1997 makes perfect sense.
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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Its really awful and if it was left in Terminator 2 would have sucked.


but jimbo it wansnt left in... so why are you even whining about it?
those are known as alternate endings...

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Sarahs grave. The Terminator knows about it. Where did he get this explaination. Skynet knew nothing of Connors mother so wouldn't know that. John also didn't know where she was buried.


and what was the purpose for the whole grave scene?
a shitload of guns for the Terminator to take to town on the TX...
and why in the middle of the movie?
ACTION!!!!

Best description of T3 yet is
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T3 is explosions, oneliners, bad CGI and contradictory and incoherent storytelling. It's in every way an emotionally and intellectually empty vessel and is representative of all that is bad about Hollywood's big summer blockbuster films.


perfect!
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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How I would rate the Terminator series

The Terminator - James Camerons original masterpeice. Its a movie with non-stop action, great acting, great characters, great emotional depth, and the best villian of all time. Its a shame they don't make science fiction like this anymore - A+

Terminator 2 Judgement Day - A much bigger movie then the first. Still Terminator 2 proves bigger doesn't always mean better. What we have is an inferior below average movie missing the great acting, cool time loops, and intellegent storyline of the first movie. Still it has great effects and some well done action. - B-

Terminator 3 Rise of the Machines - Repeats many of Terminator 2s many flaws. Still it is an improvement its got a superior storyline, superior acting, best action and effects of the series, and Kristanna Loken. Even with its strengths it can't live up to the original masterpeice - B+
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T3 repeats much of T2 cuz the director took almost all the exciting elements of T2 and just copied them...

ie big rig chase...
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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I didn't care that much for the TX. While the T-1000 was a significant update to the T-800 I didn't feel that the TX made that big of an impression.

And about T3 copying T2, they also copied the "Kill Count - 0" gag.

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Originally posted by: bad_karma24
I didn't care that much for the TX. While the T-1000 was a significant update to the T-800 I didn't feel that the TX made that big of an impression.

And about T3 copying T2, they also copied the "Kill Count - 0" gag.


I hated the kill count. It makes no sense whatsoever even with Arnolds special vision he could fire arbatraily into a crowd and not kill anybody. It sucked ass in both movies. Thats my problem with Terminator 3. It takes alot of things that sucked in Terminator 2 and just sucks um more. Everything about it that different then Terminator 2 is great.