logo Sign In

Anakin should have become Darth Vader before the last 10 minutes of Episode III

Author
Date
Author
Time
Post link

I’ve felt (like many others) that the ending of Revenge of the Sith feels really rushed, and that Anakin should have gotten into the Darth Vader suit before the very ending of the last movie. (Also Padmé shouldn’t have died onscreen, but that’s probably a topic for a whole 'nother thread) I had though we were gonna see him “hunting down and destroying the Jedi Knights” instead of the Clones. I wonder if it would have been much better had he gotten his Darth suit more towards the beginning, or at least the halfway point of ROTS.

You’ll laugh! You’ll cry! You’ll kiss three bucks goodbye!

Author
Time
Post link

Think that would have been better! And instead of the clones fighting for the republic, they should have been the enemy imho. Like it was hinted at in the early EU (especially in the Thrawn trilogy).

Author
Time
Post link

Darth Caliban said:

Think that would have been better! And instead of the clones fighting for the republic, they should have been the enemy imho. Like it was hinted at in the early EU (especially in the Thrawn trilogy).

Yes! Just one example of the great universe-building in those books. I really like what Mr. Plinkett says in the Clones video about them being cloned monsters that threaten the galaxy. Also, while we’re on the subject I think the Clone wars should have been going on before or at least begin at the start of Episode I. There’s a war going on at the start of SW (which I know that was the point), but it would be a more interesting way to start your space adventure series.

You’ll laugh! You’ll cry! You’ll kiss three bucks goodbye!

Author
Time
Post link

I think there should have been more than 3 movies, the phantom menace should have been it’s own story with no Episode number. Something like “In the beginning…”

Episode II now the new Episode I
Episode III now being the Episode II

At the end of the new Episode II, the duel happens, Kenobi doesn’t see what happens to Anakin, he falls over and Kenobi assumes he’s dead. This is the cliffhanger Kenobi and Padme leave and the closest planet is Alderaan. Bail Organa greets Kenobi and the injured Padme. Meanwhile, the injured Anakin is found by the Emperor as they fly into space and iris out, it’s the end of the movie.

Episode III begins after the scroll as we follow the Emperor’s ship coming out of light speed and arriving on the planet. We see Darth Vader being assembled but we can’t see his face, it’s more like building a machine. We watch as the twins are born on Alderaan.

Yoda has the same talk with Bail and Kenobi, but Yoda takes Luke with him to Dagobah until Kenobi can figure out what’s happening with Chancellor Palpatine. He arrives on Coruscant and goes to his office to speak to him, but the guards won’t let him in.

Kenobi can sense something, something dark and evil, yet very familiar. He decides to leave and return later.

A scene of the Emperor talking to Vader about his planned Death Star project and how it’s already in production. This will keep the systems under control.

Vader wipeouts all remaining Jedi on Coruscant with his newly constructed red lightsaber.

The movie eventually leads up to Vader confronting Kenobi and it’s a draw, badly wounded, Kenobi flys to Dagobah to ask Master Yoda what they should do, he orders him to take young Luke to Tatooine to live with his family, he promises to watch over him.

Same ending of Episode III.

Author
Time
Post link

CarboniteSolo said:

I think there should have been more than 3 movies, the phantom menace should have been it’s own story with no Episode number. Something like “In the beginning…”

Episode II now the new Episode I
Episode III now being the Episode II

At the end of the new Episode II, the duel happens,

I love love love this concept! Much more aligned with what I was thinking. Your summary of Episode III sounds like a much more interesting movie!

You’ll laugh! You’ll cry! You’ll kiss three bucks goodbye!

Author
Time
Post link

Thanks WookieeWarrior77, that’s how I thought it would go down. I left a huge gap in the story once Kenobi is on Coruscant, but you get the idea of what I was going for, which is, Vader is the main villain, but he doesn’t know it’s Anakin until toward the end, and he’s actually frightened what his student and friend has turned into…a monster.

As for Luke going to Dagobah with Yoda first, it seemed like he had been there before, almost like a dream as he states in TESB, that’s because he was there.

I do hope this is addressed in the Obi-wan Kenobi series. Maybe he goes to Dagobah when he was 8 years old, but then Yoda or Kenobi mind erase his very brief time there, while he takes care of Leia from the inquisitors.

Uncle Owen will not like Kenobi for putting them all in danger. After it’s all over, he’ll say, “Stay away from my family, I don’t want to ever see you around here anymore.”

Author
Time
Post link

When Obi-Wan first meets him in Episode I, Anakin should be a young adult in his twenties or so (and “already a great pilot”). Obi-Wan should be “amazed how strongly the Force was with him,” taking “it upon [himself] to train him as a Jedi.” They eventually would go off to fight in the clone wars (along the way, Anakin getting involved with Luke’s mother and coming under the spell of Palpatine) and by the end of Episode II, Anakin is “seduced by the Dark Side of the Force … and [becomes] Darth Vader.” And then Episode III is all Darth Vader running around hunting down and purging Jedi.

One of the biggest problems of the prequel trilogy is that George Lucas decided to waste an entire movie with Anakin being a small child. Not only is there no plausible way for such a young boy to meaningfully contribute to the story (without resorting to silliness), but it also uses up a full third of the trilogy to do so and sets the wrong tone for the rest of the films.

Of course, by this time in history, Lucas himself has already turned to the Dark Side (fully committing to the Special Editions and forsaking the original releases, overly obsessing over CGI, and most damning, insulating himself from any outside writing/directorial help or input and surrounding himself with those only capable of muttering “Yes, Mr. Lucas”). So, even if we had avoided a child Anakin, there is little hope that the prequels would have turned out significantly better. But maybe, just maybe, we could have got…something more.

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

I strongly disagree. I prefer things happening gradually and over time as it allows things to play out like an opera having them spaced out. It also allows Luke to go through the same journey as his father but make a different choice as they both learn the same lessons in their first two films but in the third film you get a different choice. It also has a bigger impact seeing Anakin as human longer instead of more machine than man. You don’t get that by having Anakin become Darth Vader in the suit right away. Same with the rise of the Empire. It doesn’t happen instantly but gradually to build the tension through subtle transformation.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

Author
Time
Post link

You mean he should have been in the suit before the last few minutes because he was dubbed Darth Vader as soon as he rescued Palpatine.

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

People are too obsessed with the idea of trilogies. Honestly they should have never bothered numbering the Star Wars movies at all, and should have just filled things in with whatever movies they wanted to make. So like, for instance, they could have just made a bunch of movies about young Anakin at different stages of his life, or about other characters in that time period (which could feature Anakin as a supporting character or guest character), and we wouldn’t know the exact one where Anakin would turn to the dark side, but we would see the gradual transition. And then a later movie could just be about him hunting down Jedi. Others could be about other characters, like Obi Wan.

I mean that’s eventually what the Star Wars meta narrative evolved into, when you factor in Clone Wars and all the standalone movies and Disney Plus shows. There’s no reason they couldn’t have just written things that way in the first place, instead of forcing the prequels and sequels to mirror the OT.

Author
Time
Post link

Trilogies didn’t really exist before Star Wars though. At least not in the same fashion. It could have been series like Planet of the Apes where it just kept going until it ran out of steam entirely.

Anyway, on topic, no Vader as he was in SW originally should not have been shown in the PT.

Author
Time
Post link

I would have liked him getting some sort of Sith outfit that is similar to his Vader outfit and then the rest of Vader’s iconic suit is built onto that after the run-in with Obi-Wan.

Author
Time
Post link

Mocata said:

Anyway, on topic, no Vader as he was in SW originally should not have been shown in the PT.

This for me too. I am sure the PR, marketing and merchandising people were overjoyed at it being the film and being able to use such an iconic image. But it really had no business being shown in the PT from a story point of view. The end few scenes in ROTS just summed up the rushed box ticking that was going no in the last Prequel film.

(That is also ignoring the awful way the scene was actually executed - Noooooo!!!)

The Secret History of Star Wars | Star Wars Visual Comparisons | George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time-Travelling Revisionist

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

Buzz Lightyear said:

People are too obsessed with the idea of trilogies. Honestly they should have never bothered numbering the Star Wars movies at all, and should have just filled things in with whatever movies they wanted to make. So like, for instance, they could have just made a bunch of movies about young Anakin at different stages of his life, or about other characters in that time period (which could feature Anakin as a supporting character or guest character), and we wouldn’t know the exact one where Anakin would turn to the dark side, but we would see the gradual transition. And then a later movie could just be about him hunting down Jedi. Others could be about other characters, like Obi Wan.

I mean that’s eventually what the Star Wars meta narrative evolved into, when you factor in Clone Wars and all the standalone movies and Disney Plus shows. There’s no reason they couldn’t have just written things that way in the first place, instead of forcing the prequels and sequels to mirror the OT.

Honestly, this.

While I think it would’ve been great to have a movie of just Darth Vader killing Jedi, all three of the prequels have important concepts to show. The Phantom Menace is more necessary then people think. It shows Anakin’s past trauma as a slave and introduces his relationship with his mother which is a huge part of his turn to the dark side, as well as introducing his strained relationship with the Jedi council. These shouldn’t be in flashbacks because as explained here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD2G0D-nyLA), flashbacks aren’t a part of the Star Wars format. It also shows how Palpatine became chancellor (that shouldn’t happen off-screen, Palpatine’s rise to power is literally the other half of the point of the prequels, that’d be like if Anakin turning to Vader was off-screen) and the corruption in the Senate. Just jumping into Attack of the Clones doesn’t work, unless you combine their plots together somehow.

I would do a saga like this:
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
A Clone Wars movie (using elements from EU novels and both Clone Wars series)
Revenge of the Sith
A movie with Darth Vader hunting surviving Jedi and the foundations of the empire
A movie adapting the Fortress Vader comic arc
A New Hope
Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi

My Star Wars Fan-Edits

Author
Time
Post link

G&G-Fan said:

Buzz Lightyear said:

People are too obsessed with the idea of trilogies. Honestly they should have never bothered numbering the Star Wars movies at all, and should have just filled things in with whatever movies they wanted to make. So like, for instance, they could have just made a bunch of movies about young Anakin at different stages of his life, or about other characters in that time period (which could feature Anakin as a supporting character or guest character), and we wouldn’t know the exact one where Anakin would turn to the dark side, but we would see the gradual transition. And then a later movie could just be about him hunting down Jedi. Others could be about other characters, like Obi Wan.

I mean that’s eventually what the Star Wars meta narrative evolved into, when you factor in Clone Wars and all the standalone movies and Disney Plus shows. There’s no reason they couldn’t have just written things that way in the first place, instead of forcing the prequels and sequels to mirror the OT.

While I think it would’ve been great to have a movie of just Darth Vader killing Jedi

Moving his turn earlier doesn’t necessarily mean the ending is nothing but killing Jedi. A more convincing arc could’ve been:

  1. Set Anakin up as a hero

  2. Anakin succumbs to the dark side

  3. Anakin’s friends fail to pull him back to the light

Reading R + L ≠ J theories

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

SparkySywer said:

Moving his turn earlier doesn’t necessarily mean the ending is nothing but killing Jedi. A more convincing arc could’ve been:

  1. Set Anakin up as a hero

  2. Anakin succumbs to the dark side

  3. Anakin’s friends fail to pull him back to the light

I mean, there’s more to it then that. There’s also character development for Vader delving into his psyche and showing his adjustment to becoming a cyborg monster. Basically, the stuff in the 2017 Vader comics (which IMO are a masterpiece). Just thinking about a movie adapting Vader bleeding his kyber crystal and the Fortress Vader arc gets me giddy.

I don’t see how this is better then having Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones (tho improved, obvs), then a Clone Wars movie to really show Anakin’s heroics, then Revenge of the Sith and then a Vader movie. I think that Anakin having a traumatic past and a hard time letting go of people he cares about (due to his mother’s death) is fantastic and adds dimension to his character.

My Star Wars Fan-Edits

Author
Time
Post link

Well, a big problem with that is that it isn’t a trilogy. It’s two movies, a long ass cartoon, and then two more movies. It isn’t conducive to telling a character arc. One movie is more than enough to set Anakin up as a hero, and the third movie is way more than enough to show him adjusting into being a cyborg monster, something that’s honestly icing on the cake and not actually an essential part of this story.

Reading R + L ≠ J theories

Author
Time
Post link

People have said this before, but I’m really unsure how it would be done. When people bring up the idea of showing more Vader hunting down Jedi, what would that story look like? How would you do it without making it a very long montage? You could pick one or two or a group of Jedi for him to go after, but why should we get attached to them in particular? The major characters up to this point are all accounted for, so you would have to make up some new ones just for them to die by the end of the movie. Obi Wan’s summary of the situation in the original movie pretty much covers it.

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

If it had been up to me, the SW Saga would’ve consisted of twelve episodes instead of Lucas’ six, with the first five covering the prequel era.

  • Episode I: Prelude to the Clone Wars. Roughly similar to TPM, though the baddies would’ve been the Mandalorians, not Neimoidians. Ben/Obi-Wan would’ve been the main character. No Anakin at all.
  • Episode II-IV: Clone Wars trilogy. Anakin would’ve been introduced in Episode II, and he would’ve been the main character throughout the trilogy. My trilogy would’ve diverged considerably from Lucas’, though I would’ve keep Qui-Gon/Dooku (merged into a single character) as an antagonist. Anakin would’ve joined the Sith in Episode II, but he wouldn’t have become a bona fide darksider until towards the end of Episode III. He’d probably have lost a limb or two in a showdown with Obi-Wan, but he wouldn’t’ve been put into the suit at this point. The Jedi Purge wouldn’t have occurred yet either.
  • Episode V: Interlude. The Jedi Purge would’ve now been underway, probably winding down. Anakin would’ve received a lot of damage over the years since Episode IV, accumulated many scars and bionics, and worn Vader-esque armour into battle, but he’d been more like Saw Gerrera, capable of breathing unassisted. Only at the end of this episode would he’ve become the Darth Vader we know in the OT.

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy

Author
Time
Post link

I disagree with the “Vader should have turned earlier” idea. It just doesn’t “rhyme” well with the OT. In the OT, we had a definite set of core characters, and IMO the same should be the case with the PT. It would seem clumsy if the protagonist of the first 2/3rds of the trilogy became the antagonist in the last part. I suppose you could fix that by having Obi-wan be the main protagonist, but I’d rather have the prequels be Anakin’s story first and foremost.

In my ideal prequels, Ep1 would’ve had Anakin as a heroic protagonist. Ep2 would plant the seeds of darkness in him, becoming an antihero, and by Ep3 would be about him turning to the dark side, with the definitive turn at the climax. He may only become evil at the very end of the trilogy, but it’s a much more gradual progression that doesn’t feel forced.

One idea I like is that in Ep3, Anakin and Obi-wan should be rivals, who are either part of different factions fighting for the same general cause, or they’re on different sides but still respect each other until Anakin fully becomes Vader.

Author
Time
Post link

I’d like to still see that original finished cut of ROTS, before George reshot and re-edited it to focus on Anakin. I’ve just started reading The Secret History of Star Wars again and am looking forward to this section in the book.

This short article is worth reading for anyone interested in how ROTS ended up on screen (though the book goes into considerably more detail, IIRC): http://fd.noneinc.com/secrethistoryofstarwarscom/secrethistoryofstarwars.com/theturn.html
 

Maybe we’ll get to see those unused shots on other story arcs and characters in a “50th anniversary box set” or something, along with many other unused shots or deleted scenes for all 11 of the main films?

“In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be “replaced” by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten.” - George Lucas

Author
Time
Post link

I kind of understand where people are coming from with this, it would be cool for Darth Vader to show up for more than 2 scenes and actually get to do something, but I don’t think they’d really be able to sustain it for an extended period of time. If there is one thing that is consistent in the Star Wars TV Shows and Movies, it is that Darth Vader is used sparingly. He only shows up for a total of 37 minutes in the original trilogy, he gets around 10 minutes in A New Hope, 13 minutes in Empire, and around 14 in Return. In Revenge he only gets 2 scenes, he only appears for one scene in Rouge One, we get the epilogue scene in The Clone Wars which is only around 2 minutes, and he only appears in 3-4 episodes of Rebels for a grand total of 10 minutes. He gets 22 minutes in Obi-Wan, but that shows around 4 and a half hours long so it’s technically consistent with previous entries. I actually really like that because too much Vader I think would not work that well. Sure there have been comics and books where he’s the main character and focus of the story, and there’s a chance it could be cool, but I just don’t think it would satisfy anyone.

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

Caston said:

I’d like to still see that original finished cut of ROTS, before George reshot and re-edited it to focus on Anakin. I’ve just started reading The Secret History of Star Wars again and am looking forward to this section in the book.

This short article is worth reading for anyone interested in how ROTS ended up on screen (though the book goes into considerably more detail, IIRC): http://fd.noneinc.com/secrethistoryofstarwarscom/secrethistoryofstarwars.com/theturn.html
 

Maybe we’ll get to see those unused shots on other story arcs and characters in a “50th anniversary box set” or something, along with many other unused shots or deleted scenes for all 11 of the main films?

I really like some ideas from the older version and dislike others.

The original conception of Anakin’s turn was that the darkside was slowly turning and corrupting his mind, like some kind of drug or virus. Anakin’s massacre of the Tusken Raiders was initially a pivotal point (in many other ways as well, as we will see later) because it gave him his first taste of this awesome power, and slowly but surely he would be drawn back to it. Thus, when Anakin struck down Mace (or Dooku, in the original conception), it was the consumation of a journey that began in Episode II. This is why the Emperor was sure Luke would fall in Return of the Jedi if he killed Vader out of hate–once you had tasted its power, it would be so irresistable that you would inevitably be drawn back to it, and slowly it would consume you, twisting your mind.

This is great, I love this idea. This is really what the center of Anakin’s turn to Vader should’ve been about: that addiction to the dark side. OT Vader boasted the power of the dark side so much, you’d think that’s the reason he turned.

I especially love how it retroactively makes Return of the Jedi even better by giving a previous example of how taking revenge, no matter how seemingly justified, can trap someone in the dark side.

I don’t like the idea that Anakin genuinely believes the Jedi are taking over the Republic. Vader was never a character that believed he was doing the right thing. He was a power-hungry monster. In ROTJ it’s clear he knows what he’s doing is wrong. I like it better in the current cut, where it’s more just an excuse he gives himself rather then something he genuinely believes, but even that I’m iffy on. The most ideal version would be accepting that he’s become a monster but pretends he doesn’t care.

My Star Wars Fan-Edits