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Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released) — Page 19

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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
Curses!

The only copy of Episode II that I have is MagFan's edit. I've rented the release version and sent it back, so I don't have access to the release version except through on-line scripts which are, as you see, inaccurate.

What is there in the current scene? Or can you direct me to a continuity draft ?

What's there in the current scene is:

Padme
we used to come here for school retreat. We used to swim
to that island every day. I love the water.

...We used to lie on the sand and
let the sun dry us... and try to
guess the names of the birds
singing.

Anakin
I don't like sand. It's course rough and, irratating and, it gets everywhere. Not like here, here everythings soft and, smooth.

They glance and kiss.

Padme pulls away.

Padme
No, I shouldn't have done that.

Anakin
I'm sorry.


Trooperman:
I've read the discussion on trying to explian the force ghosts. I'm not sure how your going to do some of the things that you've said. All I can say is that I hope you pull it off well(partically the Qui-gon dissappearing thing). Personally, I would just leave the force ghost thing as, it is(with just another Qui-gon VO in the dream sequence).


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Thanks --

Then the suggestion has to be made: simply cut the Anakin dialogue and go straight from Padme's dialogue to the longing looks-- extend as long as necessary to fit in the voice over from the following scene by using shots that don't have lip-flap. The dialogue from Padme sets the mood well-- personally revealing in a harmless way, provoking no response from Anakin other than a look of desire. The kind of look you give on the night you're planning to confess your love...

Cut to him confessing his love...

Out.

That seems sound to me, but I haven't seen the footage in a while.

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Thanks for the comments, everyone. I have plenty of time to make the Qui-Gon disappearance in Episode I work.


Then the suggestion has to be made: simply cut the Anakin dialogue and go straight from Padme's dialogue to the longing looks-- extend as long as necessary to fit in the voice over from the following scene by using shots that don't have lip-flap. The dialogue from Padme sets the mood well-- personally revealing in a harmless way, provoking no response from Anakin other than a look of desire. The kind of look you give on the night you're planning to confess your love...

Yes. I had thought of that, of course...

The other two options would be to either find something else for Anakin to say that would kind of match the lips, or else either turn down the brightness and blur the area around his mouth to the point that you can't tell he's supposed to be talking at all. The only problem I have with no real Anakin dialogue in that scene is that I wouldn't be able to use the shot showing both of their faces as they look out over the balcony, and it could be unnatural to cut directly to close-ups that early in the scene- that shot would really be useful in bridging the gap between the far shot and close-ups.


I'm working on the editing and sound mix of the saber fight as well, right now.

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Oh, and in case you missed it (at the end of a long post)....

Any ideas on how to make Coruscant/the Coruscant streets a little darker, more like Blade Runner? (I don't know- compare the 2 aliens arguing about which brand is better to the billboard in BR of the woman taking the pills). Shots I could use from other movies? Because right now, we have a lot of stuff/costumes that looks like it's out of Harry Potter- just wondering if anyone had suggestions to make it more like a filthy, inner-city dump. Inside the bar, I've already done some things with color, added some old nightclub music, and occasionally cut away to other movies in an attempt to make it more gritty and interesting.

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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I love the idea of additional, darker street material to create a Bladerunner feel. Avoiding actual shots from Bladerunner (which could perhaps be used if flipped, etc.) I would start with looking at all shots from A.I. and Minority Report since Lucas and Spielberg have similar visions and styles.

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Trooperman:
Here is a rewrite that might work with the lip-flap of the balcony scene and contain the right subtext witout being obnoxious. Try this on for size.


PADME
we used to come here for school retreat. We used to swim
to that island every day. I love the water.

...We used to lie on the sand and
let the sun dry us... and try to
guess the names of the birds
singing.

ANAKIN
I don't know birds. I don't know anything about worlds where the creatures are pleasant-- and free. I like it here -- everything is soft and sooth.

re: making the city dirty -- I haven't seen Total Recall in a while, but I remember its dirty downtown being similar to the downtown we get in AOTC. Maybe a shot or two there will work -- given the appropriate "Trooperman" touch, of course.

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Originally posted by: Trooperman
Oh, and in case you missed it (at the end of a long post)....

Any ideas on how to make Coruscant/the Coruscant streets a little darker, more like Blade Runner? (I don't know- compare the 2 aliens arguing about which brand is better to the billboard in BR of the woman taking the pills). Shots I could use from other movies? Because right now, we have a lot of stuff/costumes that looks like it's out of Harry Potter- just wondering if anyone had suggestions to make it more like a filthy, inner-city dump. Inside the bar, I've already done some things with color, added some old nightclub music, and occasionally cut away to other movies in an attempt to make it more gritty and interesting.


Introducing shots from other movies is certainly helpful and something I'm considering for my project as well.

For cityscape stuff, I agree that Blade Runner might be a good source if somehow disguised. Perhaps Judge Dredd and/or Fifth Element as well? That's just off the top of my head. MTHaslett could be right about AI and Minority Report, though I haven't seen the latter. Perhaps "I, Robot" has some usable footage, but I don't remember anything that jumps out at me --- too close to current reality probably.

Total Recall just looks too much like a movie set for my taste, but we all have our own views on that. Perhaps with some changes to lighting?
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c35/damonhunter/TDHOpenerMini.jpg
"Luminous beings are we -- not this crude matter." ~~Master Yoda
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." ~~Lord Vader
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Thank you Mark and DemonHunter for the suggestions on films that could contain shots like this: A.I, Minority Report, Total Recall, BR, maybe...Judge Dredd, Fifth Element, or I, Robot. I'll take a look



PADME
we used to come here for school retreat. We used to swim
to that island every day. I love the water.

...We used to lie on the sand and
let the sun dry us... and try to
guess the names of the birds
singing.

ANAKIN
I don't know birds. I don't know anything about worlds where the creatures are pleasant-- and free. I like it here -- everything is soft and sooth.


That's definitely better than the original! However, I don't know....it still sounds a little cheesy. Which is why I'm going to try and maybe find a way so that Anakin doesn't talk at all. Padme's chattering, but that dies down as she realized Anakin's staring instead of talking. They both look at each other- something's clicked. "I love you", voices Anakin from the next scene, etc. I have to make that work, because I've thought about it and dramatically speaking, it's the best option.

I have a completely unrelated surprise coming up in the next day or two- I'm posting something on yousendit for your feedback. Just to show you I haven't been slacking off

Oh, and by the way, it was very nice of Hiochi to post the "Temple of Doom" soundtrack in the Memorabilia section, because there's a very specific short cue from that score that I had in mind for a very specific scene in SotDS- for a long time. But I'm not going to tell you where

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Dark City has some Coruscant-like city shots as well. I remember someone used them in a fan trailer for Episode 2 a long time ago.
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Surprise
http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/8474/dooku5oj.png
Saber Fight mono lightsaber

Disclaimer: The clip above is not finished. The lightsaber effects also have not been put into stereo yet. I'm posting this because it seems the best way to get good feedback on it. Also, it's a bit of a preview into the general editing style I'm taking, perhaps. If you remember, I cut away after Dooku ignites his saber, so the goal was to cut both parts of the fight together to make a longer and exciting fight. I only posted part of it.

Unfinished

Here's another clip- I don't want to hear criticism on this one because the mix is unfinished, a few frames of video are still unfinished, etc. This is just to give you an idea of the cuts I've made to this very brief section of it.

Thanks for the suggestion, CC!

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Part 1: Excellent! I take it you replaced the PT sound effects? While I don't see what the fuss is all about (MF did a similar thing in BotF) they sound good, and the editing here is a lot smother than that in AotC. Is that the final music? I know I've heard it before but I just can't place it (SW I know, but from AotC?).

Part 2: The only really jarring thing was the reverse footage of Obi-Wan locked in with Dooku. Maybe I'm just so used to the offical version, but it looks odd.

EDIT: Nevermind, it just clicked (watching it again...and again ) The trench run from ANH? Hmmm. I think the duel calls for something different.
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Thanks!

I take it you replaced the PT sound effects?

Yes- all the saber effects here are new. Some are from my little library, some I grabbed right out of Ep. IV, and some are actually my own, created by combining existing effects.

Is that the final music? I know I've heard it before but I just can't place it (SW I know, but from AotC?).

Yes, I tracked music from "Battle of Yavin" from the original SW. I think that's the only time that I directly tracked music from the other films. I was really careful with the editing as far as making the saber fight last for the time of the exciting part, and then the music quiets as Dooku starts to speak. Synchronization is a big thing for me.

Part 2: The only really jarring thing was the reverse footage of Obi-Wan locked in with Dooku. Maybe I'm just so used to the offical version, but it looks odd.

Yes- that's what I was referring to. It looks odd to me as well and will be fixed to something that isn't jarring. But that's basically what I'm doing for that shot.

Thanks for the feedback!

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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I'll have to disagree with Commander Courage on this and say that I love the choice of the trench run music for this scene, Trooperman. From the portion you've provided, it seems to be a perfect (and exciting) fit and helps to raise the level of tension for the entire scene. Unlike that aimless, percussive funeral knell that John Williams crapped out for the official release. Whatever that was.

People tend to forget that 50% of the OT experience was the music, a part of the experience which in my critical opinion (with a few granted exceptions) is severely lacking in the Prequel Trilogy. Don't get me wrong, John Williams is the master and all, but in the case of the Prequels, the Goose had apparently run out of golden eggs.

Musical Synchronization is the key.

As a matter of fact, I must mention that you have come a LOOONG way since I last visited this thread, which was when it was only one page long. Back then, after reading your first entry, I admit that I laughed it off and said that what you were proposing (with a full redub of the main characters, sound effects, etc.) could never be done with any degree of acceptable quality. But now... Wow! I've seen the screenshots and sample vids... and what can I say? You've made a believer out of me!

Best of luck to you in this endeavor, as I read this thread I'm noticing that your directorial sensibilities are very much in tune with a lot of the changes I would've made myself. I'm overjoyed to see that someone is putting so much focus and effort into recreating the soundtrack of this film. It is an aspect that has been largely overlooked or ignored by most fan-editors up to this point. And IMO, it is where the prequels need the most work.

I look forward to tracking down a copy of this once it's completed. Meanwhile, I'll continue to follow this thread.

MTFBWY,

InfoDroid

P.S. - The saber sound effects on the above clips sound SO much better than the official release. Brings us right back to the OT, which is where we want to be in the first place.

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InfoDroid: If you go back through the thread you'll see that I have made many the same opinions as you in regards to the prequel music. My only concern would be direct tracking from other parts of the films; if we do that we fall into the same trap that Lucas' editors did in AotC, and to a lesser extent RotS.

I'm a very musical thinker and I don't want to be watching an intense lightsaber duel and suddenly hear a certain bit of the soundtrack and think, "I've lost Artoo!"
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LOL! Too true, Commander Courage. And please know, I wasn't disagreeing with ALL of your opinions. Just the one about the trench run not being the right fit for the duel.

Let me just elaborate by saying, to a degree I think that familiarity with the music can greatly enhance an otherwise stale scene simply due to the emotional connection we have with it from the other films. I'd say to most people this is an unconcious connection. Even you said you couldn't place it the first time you heard it, because you're seeing it juxtaposed in a completely new context.

I understand what you're saying about Ben Burtt's crew misusing and abusing the same mediocre musical cuts over and over again. But the problem with the editing of the prequel scores, hack-jobs as they were, was that they cannibalized themselves. My point being that if you're crappily editing music into a sequence the music was never meant for, and the music you're drawing from was crappy to begin with, then chances are you're going to end up with crap. Which is exactly what happened. Had their source been ANH or ESB, the effect might have been totally different.

So, although it may not work with some scenes, or with certain music that has reached a level of cliche, I think in Trooperman's above clips this approach is perfectly effective. The old themes are what were so glaringly missing from the Prequel scores. George Lucas always talks about thematic echos, yet the music never seems to be on quite the same page. The trick for Trooperman is to (in some cases) let the completed music dictate the editing and flow of the film, instead of vice-versa. If he does that, I think it may offer us all a brand new way of looking at this film.

Remember the first time you saw the Phantom Menace trailer???

Nothing like it. Cheer inducing. People were paying seven bucks just to see the trailer. I think the main reason the trailers were so exciting and emotionally powerful, is because we were responding mostly to the old music. I think this is especially apparent in the AOTC trailer where they used Princess Leia's theme to underpin the love story. It was so much more effective than "Across the Stars", which ultimately is nothing more than a softened-up and disappointing rehash of Williams' "Nixon" score.

I think you'll agree when I say a complete musical overhaul of the Prequels would alone do wonders for the films, and for the story arch as a whole.

Anyway, great job, Trooperman!

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Excellent work, Trooperman. Excellent work, indeed. Great stuff, and I'm certainly looking forward to the final release. Looks (and sounds) like you've done an amazing job bringing life to Ep II.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c35/damonhunter/TDHOpenerMini.jpg
"Luminous beings are we -- not this crude matter." ~~Master Yoda
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." ~~Lord Vader
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We are on the same page InfoDroid. I've done a few editing projects myself with my limited means, and I too have found the most effective technique is to match up the visuals with the audio. If it's just right, it works wonderfully. If not, you think to yourself, "eh...almost." Trooperman has certainly gotten it "just right," and I'm sure when the sequence is viewed as a whole it will work wonderfully. This guy seems to know what he's doing.

This clip did bring something else to my attention. "Yoda holds you in such high esteem." Where does this come from? Surely Yoda hasn't been conferring with Dooku about his Jedi pupils. I'm glad they added some OT-style taunting in contrast to the silent duel of TPM, and there was even more in the script, but this line makes little sense when you think about it. I'm not suggesting to cut it, as it needs to be there to break up the fighting, I'm just pointing that out. What I think happened was this was to establish that Dooku knew who Obi-Wan was. He refers to him formally as "Master Kenobi," as opposed the the friendly nature of their previous conversation. On the AotC DVD it is mentioned that the Dooku/Obi-Wan scene was conceived late in production, as it had originally a mystery what happened to Obi-Wan. Dooku instead had a scene with Padme asking her to join the Seperatists, which is included as a deleted scene. Wisely Lucas changed things up and we got one of the best scenes in the film.
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WOW- I didn't expect to come back to this. I should post this stuff more often!

And your posts really brightened my day, InfoDroid. And yours too, DemonHunter (good luck on your project, BTW) And Commander Courage, as always. Everyone!- I'm glad you guys like where I'm going with this.

(unless I'm seeing things) it looks like you cut in the middle of Padme's run rather then letting the whole run go on. *checks the DVD* Yeah, it seems you cut the last 5 frames*thumbs up*

Could be. I edit very much on instinct and don't keep track of a lot of that. I pity the poor person who will try to list all the changes after this is done- it's kind of an impossible task.

A word on the space battle music I borrowed from the original SW- I didn't just come up with that a couple days ago, or last week. I've had that specific cue in mind for the saber duel for months now- it was one of the first things I envisioned for my Ep. II. And I was going to say the same thing as InfoDroid, CC- It did take a few plays to realize where the music was actually from, because it is in a very different context and is synched to the action. I guess the hope is that if people can’t place it from the original SW, they will sense that it’s familiar and will become more attached to it. Which is what I think InfoD was saying.

But as I said before, I don't plan on tracking much music directly out of the other movies, so there shouldn’t be a concern that it’ll be another sloppy cut, paste, and track job- not the case at all. Pretty much all new music comes in one piece, in a pretty good sized chunk- so that it flows.

And I'm glad people liked the saber effects. So do I

helps to raise the level of tension for the entire scene. Unlike that aimless, percussive funeral knell that John Williams crapped out for the official release. Whatever that was.

That's so true- this is a climactic life or death lightsaber fight! We need to hear an orchestra that's taking us somewhere. "Aimless" really is a good choice of words for the current score.

As a matter of fact, I must mention that you have come a LOOONG way since I last visited this thread, which was when it was only one page long. Back then, after reading your first entry, I admit that I laughed it off and said that what you were proposing (with a full redub of the main characters, sound effects, etc.) could never be done with any degree of acceptable quality.

Ha ha- it sounded a little over-the-top to me, too (at the time). Causing my somewhat unconfident 1st post. But it definitely has come a long way, especially after I realized there would be a demand for this and people were actually following the project.

But now... Wow! I've seen the screenshots and sample vids... and what can I say? You've made a believer out of me!

Ha ha- go back to the first page of this thread. I actually made the comment that people wouldn't buy this unless they actually saw it. And I honestly don't blame people for doubting someone with a wacky idea and no proof that he could actually do it.


Best of luck to you in this endeavor, as I read this thread I'm noticing that your directorial sensibilities are very much in tune with a lot of the changes I would've made myself. I'm overjoyed to see that someone is putting so much focus and effort into recreating the soundtrack of this film. It is an aspect that has been largely overlooked or ignored by most fan-editors up to this point. And IMO, it is where the prequels need the most work.

Thank you- it actually didn't start out that way, really. The big change to the soundtrack was going to be the new Anakin dub. Maybe some music in the nightclub, the Imperial March for the stormtroopers, etc. Then I remembered that the soundtrack is garbage and I wanted to replace a lot of that. Then, I didn't like some of the sound effects... before you know it, I'm almost doing a new stereo mix from scratch, splitting up the 5.1 on the official DVD for my own ends. Then, I remembered how awful the CGI was for this movie, and so I started experimenting…in fact, one of the most popular recolored sequences, the droid factory, was a complete accident that turned out way better than I expected. I’ll admit it- so many things in this edit I carefully planned, and so many new ideas were given to me through this forum, but I think you’ll find that some of the most amazing and creative things in here actually came about through luck.

The trick for Trooperman is to (in some cases) let the completed music dictate the editing and flow of the film, instead of vice-versa. If he does that, I think it may offer us all a brand new way of looking at this film.

Right on; that’s how I edit a movie, not the other way around. Cut the film to the music- there’s nothing more effective.

Looks (and sounds) like you've done an amazing job bringing life to Ep II.

Trooperman has certainly gotten it "just right," and I'm sure when the sequence is viewed as a whole it will work wonderfully. This guy seems to know what he's doing.

Thank you! As I’ve said, this isn’t my real job, just a very big hobby of mine. But in all honesty, although this is by far the biggest thing I’ve ever done, I have done a couple short films, so I’m not completely new to editing using the PC. My biggest concern is going to be coloring Mace Windu’s lightsaber blue- SPFX isn’t my forte at all. Music is my big thing, and I have access to certain things…as I brought up earlier, let’s just say that I’m positive that new music written specifically for SotDS will be recorded and featured in this.

This clip did bring something else to my attention. "Yoda holds you in such high esteem." Where does this come from? Surely Yoda hasn't been conferring with Dooku about his Jedi pupils. I'm glad they added some OT-style taunting in contrast to the silent duel of TPM, and there was even more in the script, but this line makes little sense when you think about it. I'm not suggesting to cut it, as it needs to be there to break up the fighting, I'm just pointing that out.

Good point, though. Like you say, it’s necessary to break the fighting up, pacing, etc.

Please ask if you have any questions, folks! I’m so happy that I’m doing something that will benefit not only myself (which was the original goal) but also others that are unhappy with the prequels. I’ll try to get it done as quickly as possible (but not sacrificing any quality in the process), as this is a big thing. I’m not a real PC editor, I’m not very experienced with special effects, but I’d like to think that I understand music, pacing, synchronization, and dialogue to a certain extent.

Thanks for your kind words.

Oh, and BTW CC- you're an Astros fan...are you from Texas? I used to live there, you know. I still have relatives in San Antonio and Houston.

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Originally posted by: Trooperman
Oh, and BTW CC- you're an Astros fan...are you from Texas? I used to live there, you know. I still have relatives in San Antonio and Houston.

Yes indeed I was born and raised and currently live in the great city of Houston in the great state of Texas.
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I just listened to Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring". It does sound eerily similar to the OT, especially the scene where the Stormtroopers are running down the halls of the Death Star. I wonder if some of it was used in the temp track for ANH.

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Quite possibly. "The Planets" was used as a temp track, so I wouldn't be surprised if Lucas plugged in some "Rite of Spring" as well. And btw, Trooperman will be using selections from both in SotDS. What I'm looking forward to the most though is "Uranus" as Dooku's Theme.
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Allrighty, Here's my 2¢ about the Ghost of Gui-Gon Jinn. (Thanks character map!)

1. The body of Qui-Gon can not dissappear. As it has been mentioned, this would create more problems than it would fix. In addition, Yoda and Obi-wan pretty much evaporated soon as they were dead. If this is the norm, then he would have to dissappear in Obi-wan's arms in the reactor room. Otherwise, he'd still be alive when they put him on the pyre and would have died in the flames.

2. I've been trying to talk somebody into re-editing the Anakin destroying the Droid Control Ship for quite a while. Having Qui-gon speak to Anakin through the Force is the way the movie needed to end up. The allusion to Luke destroying the Death Star would be perfect. The only problem would be that in the final edit, Qui-Gon is still alive. He dies after Anakin destroys the ship. Having Qui-Gon 'communicate' with Anakin while he is still alive seems problematic. Moving the scenes around fix the problem. Incidentally, the revised 3rd draft has Qui-Gon dying before Anakin does his stuff.

3. As far as having Gui-gon communicate with Anakin or Obi-wan later in the movies....I think I'd leave the communication to a minimum. Qui-gon is a prequel character. If he is talking to everybody and appearing to everybody, then there's no reason for him not to be in the classic trilogy. If I had him appear, I'd have him only at the very end of the movie, As Obi-wan is walking back to the Eeopie. He'd appeas as Obi-wan walks towards him.
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Originally posted by: Commander Courage
Trooperman will be using selections from both in SotDS. What I'm looking forward to the most though is "Uranus" as Dooku's Theme.


That'd be killer. Especially the very beginning, very ominous.

Anybody ever hear of a guy named Michael Giacchino? He started out doing video game soundtracks (Jurassic Park: The Lost World, the Medal of Honor series, etc.) and has recently done his first major movie which was "The Incredibles". Anyway, my point is this guy sounds VERY similar to classic John Williams. So much so, that some of his action cues from the games he's done, the World War II-themed games in particular, could be useful as a viable John Williams alternative for you, Trooperman, if you needed to stretch the music in certain areas.

If you have the time, you should check 'em out:

Call of Duty - Breaking Through

Medal of Honor - The Rowhouses

Medal of Honor - The Halftrack Chase

Also Trooperman... You mentioned there would be some original music written for this edit. Could you elaborate on that?