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Post #1454814

Author
Johann-500
Parent topic
General Star Wars Random Thoughts Thread
Link to post in topic
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1454814/action/topic#1454814
Date created
26-Oct-2021, 7:36 PM
Last modified
26-Oct-2021, 7:39 PM
Edited by
Johann-500
Reason for edit
None provided

Stardust1138 said:

Johann-500 said:

Stardust1138 said:

Respecting creators including George should always take precedence to your beliefs.

Woah!
A civil respect, or a general respect? For sure.
Acknowledging their efforts, achievements and the content you enjoy, love or that resonates? Of course.

Yet the truth (or facts) should come first. Before the ‘precedence’ turns into blind respect, which then turns into idol worship. Where facts and the truth are then ignored because of that idol worship. Something that a great number of Star Wars fans have ignored when putting George up on a pedestal is the actual history of Star Wars, and also ignoring George’s attempts to both retcon, change and suppress parts of the history.

Stardust1138 said:

He may not of had every detail planned out but he had a broader sense of things to create story points for later. Mark Hamill spoke in the 80’s how George planned to end things on another plane of existence. This sure feels like someone who had an idea of where they wanted to go. Maybe not every detail as even he said he didn’t have but enough to know the broader strokes to create new storylines.

This was talked about only recently by you and another member on here? Where Lucas is quoted it was only had a vague “notion” and that “It wouldn’t be part of the main story, but a sequel to this thing” (Luke’s own personal story).

So it was not much other than a vague idea for a future story for Luke, and not for Lucas’s Sequel Trilogy. So the claim of Lucas having these “broad strokes”, “broader sense of things”, or “plans” for the Sequel Trilogy does not apply here.

In the end unfortunately many rejected him as they didn’t feel these concepts connecting Midi-Chlorians and the Force fit into Star Wars, when in reality they have always been there and align even with things Joseph Campbell talked about. Star Wars was always building to something bigger. It becomes even clearer the more you watch his six films.

It is important to remember that Midichlorians have not always been there in Star Wars. Despite Lucas trying to change history and insert his retconned quote to pass off ideas that came to him only later when writing the Prequels.

Has anyone found a mention of Midichlorians before Lucas’ writing for the TPM? If the term Midichlorians always existed in Star Wars it would not be difficult to prove for Lucas himself or Lucasfilm, but we have no evidence. Nothing other than Lucas’ famous retconned quote in a failed attempt to try and provide that evidence.

I hope you do not take my post as aggressive or an attack on you Stardust1138. You have a beautiful way with words and I enjoy reading your posts. But I feel I must highlight where I disagree, where the facts or evidence of the history does not add up (such as passing off Lucas’ vague idea for a possible future Luke story as his ideas for the Sequel Trilogy, with even Lucas himself saying this idea was not a part of the main story).

To quote Lucas in 1997: “[The whole story has] six episodes…If I ever went beyond that, it would be something that was made up".

You can respect but not always agree with someone. It’s common courtesy I find. There’s no need to insult someone or call anyone names or accuse them of x and y when we’re just as guilty of doing the very same things in our own lives in different ways. No one is perfect. We’re all flawed and make mistakes. George has his fair share but has every right to do what he feels is best as it’s his story at the end of the day. He’s always been one to change his mind. All creative people are like that. I’m a creative person. I never stick to the same ideas from one moment to the next. I always want to make my story better. I don’t see anything wrong with that. Especially as it’s my vision. Just as Star Wars was/is George’s vision. He can do whatever he pleases with it. It may belong to all of us but it’s also ultimately because of him we have it to begin with. Creators don’t have a responsibility to please or to give us what we want. Their job is to make something personal to them. Hopefully it’s morally responsible and helps us in some way but that’s a whole different topic. I’d say though George did that and then some.

I agree, but these are a societal given, or should be. The original response in reply to your post of “Respecting creators including George should always take precedence to your beliefs”, Again yes, respect at all times for sure, but that truth and facts come above individual beliefs, and such respect for creators should not prevent questions being asked, or the search for truth and facts.

No, not all creative people are like this. Please, no. I am an artist for my living. If I change my viewpoint or vision, I acknowledge it, I do not lie, retcon it, or pass off my new ideas as being old and thought of long ago, to justify a later ‘change of mind’. If I ever did this I would expect and deserve much criticism and derision to come my way for doing such a thing. Being a creative person is not an excuse, reason or a justification for these actions.

When I subcontract work out to others I do not make copies, make changes to it myself years later, and suppress the original work. The films are NOT George’s to do with as he pleases, and George himself acknowledges this when he says only a film director should be able to change a film.

Lucas also gave assurances to Kershner that Empire would be Kershner’s film, completely. Despite this, George has since altered the work and vision of two other creatives, the directors of Empire and Jedi. Lucas’ words about the director being the only person who should be able change the film came after him already having made alterations to the vision of Kershner and Marquand, and then still made further changes to the films for various releases.

What of Kershner and Marquand’s original films, their vision? Their original work is not available to see and experience, and have not been so for many years (except on old low quality vhs, laser disc etc etc).

It is also important to not forget the award winning and pioneering work done by creative and talented people who contributed to the films and that their work has been suppressed also. Work that was in public view for 20 years. But no longer.

For more information I recommend the George Lucas: Unreliable Narrator thread. Much of which I have wrote in here is from there. It highlights much of the factual history of the Original Trilogy, many of it from on this forum over a very long time. And also features Lucas’ lies, retcons, the shortfalls in his visions, and his attempts to change history. Though Jason and others in the topic are too polite to call Lucas a liar, or worse.

In there it also states Lucas himself is on the board of film preservation companies, helping to preserve films and explaining why it is important to do this and also showcase films and their history. But not his own film and the two other parts of the Trilogy.

Other creatives and directors in film make multiple versions of their work, their visions, available to all. To give the audience the choice to experience whichever version they choose to. Or to celebrate and discuss all of the versions. They do not lie, retcon, deceive or “change their mind” and deny fans the world over a version of important films that was available for 20 years. You state “Creators don’t have a responsibility to please or to give us what we want”, but it is more accurate to say it is not Lucas’ right or responsibility to take these away after 20 years of being available to us. Or to alter or take away the work of other creatives.

It’s not to say Midi-Chlorians have been there from the beginning but there’s plenty to say they don’t contradict things in the Original Trilogy. They were only three films part of a six or nine film saga he planned. Midi-Chlorians enhance things we learn in the Original Trilogy or vise versa if you decide to watch the films in the order George intended us to watch them. Things don’t seem like an accident. They just happen. Like Anakin building C-3PO. It’s not a coincidence but merely part of the story.

You state “Midi-Chlorians and the Force fit into Star Wars, when in reality they have always been there”. I merely pointed out the fact that they (Midichlorians) have not always been a part of Star Wars.

“It’s not to say Midichlorians have been there from the beginning”, when you now say this I am pleased you acknowledge such a fact.

I honestly look forward to reading more of your thoughtful and eloquent posts, personal views and beliefs.
 

I would debate that that Midichlorians do not enhance the Original Trilogy, and that C3PO being built by Anakin does not enhance the Prequels either, but these are indeed welcome personal opinions and points of view, not facts as discussed above. And I think are better suited for another time, though I do await to read more of your insights, and from many other interesting people on here.