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HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray — Page 2

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Originally posted by: bad_karma24
And look how far DVD-A has gone.

Both formats are using DD and DTS mainly for their tracks.

Another point to make is that HD-DVD has no encryption yet. It won't go anywhere without it.


Agree with you there. Blu-Ray is ahead of HD-DVD in terms of encription. HD-DVD does have alot of encryption work on it but it has yet to be finalized in the forum. My opinion thats why no American studio has commited. As soon as a good encription is demonstrated and finalized it will get more then enough studio support in time for a fall 2005 American launch.
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Apparently disc specifications for Blu-Ray 1.0 have been announced. Two months after HD-DVD. Still doesn't say whether or not Blu-Ray has adopted a better codec. Blu-Ray will suck if it doesn't pick a better codec.
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The specs were just ROM info... consumer information will be released later.

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I try not to get into these DVD vs HD-DVD vs BluRay debates anymore because I recognize that my priorities are different from most consumers. I actually look forward to the day I can sell all my DVDs on ebay and replace them with HD versions.

Watching movies at the screen size I do (92" diagonal 16:9), DVDs are inadequate. The resolution is too low and the color fidelity isn't there. I hear a lot of people claim that with proper scaling and higher pixel counts on digital displays, DVDs can approach HD quality. That's true in part. Closeups on reference DVDs look outstanding on my setup. Medium shots look really good. Watch any far shots with lots of small details, and you'll see a huge difference between DVD and HD. DVDs look soft and muddy in comparison.

HD on disc will start out as a niche format, but sales of HD displays are booming. Whoever wins in the end--HD-DVD or BluRay--will do just fine because morons like me will buy the first deck out the door. If there are a significant number of titles available on HD-DVD that I can't get on BluRay, then I'll just have to buy both.

Also keep in mind who's pushing HD on disc; it's not the studios. They're happy to sell you the same content again, sure. The real push is coming from manufacturers who can't profit on DVD player sales anymore because Chinese manufacturers are flooding the market with $40 DVD players. Manufacturers need a new format so they can sell expensive decks.


To address a few points I'm too lazy to go back and quote:

Claiming laserdisc failed because it didn't offer enough of an improvement over VHS is silly. The benefits over VHS are huge on a good TV. The best LDs I've seen are superior to most non-anamorphic DVDs. LDs failed because they're 12" wide and many movies required two or three discs. DVD took off not primarily because of image quality improvements, but because it's a 5" disc that reminds consumers of CDs, which they loved to death until they started raping content providers by downloading MP3s. Lazy consumers prefer convenience to quality. That's why microwaves are so popular.

Claiming HD has no advantage over DVD because one D-VHS movie doesn't look all that great is absurd. Having had HD via cable for about two years now, I can tell you that the best HD broadcasts--which have lower bitrates and overall lower quality than D-VHS--completely decimate DVD on a good setup. View a D-VHS tape such as Fight Club, and you'll see what HD can do. As digital displays evolve to support 1080p, then you'll really see some shit.
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No matter what the specs are in the end they are just specs. What it will come down to is what one looks better on your TV.

For a complete nerd reference look at new graphics cards. The new Navidia card has a few things that the new ATI card doesn't and yet the ATI card still out performes the Nividia card in frame rate tests.

Anyway what i'm saying is that no matter which new HD format has better specs it still may not be as good as the one with worse specs. It's all in how they are used.

I don't want to get in the middle of this but that is my two cents. I really don't care which version gets picked up. I just don't want a format war like what is going on with DVD-Audio and SACD

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Originally posted by: Jay
I try not to get into these DVD vs HD-DVD vs BluRay debates anymore because I recognize that my priorities are different from most consumers. I actually look forward to the day I can sell all my DVDs on ebay and replace them with HD versions.

Watching movies at the screen size I do (92" diagonal 16:9), DVDs are inadequate. The resolution is too low and the color fidelity isn't there. I hear a lot of people claim that with proper scaling and higher pixel counts on digital displays, DVDs can approach HD quality. That's true in part. Closeups on reference DVDs look outstanding on my setup. Medium shots look really good. Watch any far shots with lots of small details, and you'll see a huge difference between DVD and HD. DVDs look soft and muddy in comparison.

HD on disc will start out as a niche format, but sales of HD displays are booming. Whoever wins in the end--HD-DVD or BluRay--will do just fine because morons like me will buy the first deck out the door. If there are a significant number of titles available on HD-DVD that I can't get on BluRay, then I'll just have to buy both.

Also keep in mind who's pushing HD on disc; it's not the studios. They're happy to sell you the same content again, sure. The real push is coming from manufacturers who can't profit on DVD player sales anymore because Chinese manufacturers are flooding the market with $40 DVD players. Manufacturers need a new format so they can sell expensive decks.

To address a few points I'm too lazy to go back and quote:

Claiming laserdisc failed because it didn't offer enough of an improvement over VHS is silly. The benefits over VHS are huge on a good TV. The best LDs I've seen are superior to most non-anamorphic DVDs. LDs failed because they're 12" wide and many movies required two or three discs. DVD took off not primarily because of image quality improvements, but because it's a 5" disc that reminds consumers of CDs, which they loved to death until they started raping content providers by downloading MP3s. Lazy consumers prefer convenience to quality. That's why microwaves are so popular.

Claiming HD has no advantage over DVD because one D-VHS movie doesn't look all that great is absurd. Having had HD via cable for about two years now, I can tell you that the best HD broadcasts--which have lower bitrates and overall lower quality than D-VHS--completely decimate DVD on a good setup. View a D-VHS tape such as Fight Club, and you'll see what HD can do. As digital displays evolve to support 1080p, then you'll really see some shit.


Thanks thats what I have been saying. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will both suport 1080p. Personally I have yet to even see 1080p. I was blown away by 1080i D-VHS. D-VHS has resolution superior to HDTV broadcasts. In a way DVD vs. D-VHS is similar to VHS vs LD. VHS was cheaper and more convient but Laserdiscs had far better picture and sound. HD-DVD will bring all the convience of DVD with amazing quality. D-VHS has a maximum bit rate of 28.2 megabits per second, HDTV has 19.4 megabits per second, DVDs have 9.6 megabits per second (though DVDs rarely get this high due to storage) all use MPEG-2. HD-DVD has 19 megabits per second but at MPEG-4. MPEG-4 is 3x as powerful as MPEG-2 so That makes HD-DVDs picture far better then any High definition we have today.
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Mmm... 92". I can see what you mean by your priorities are different.

I have a 54" screen (16:9) yet I still don't see much of a reason to upgrade. HD is nice and all, but I'd like to wait a few years before dumping everything for a format that could be obsolete in a few years.

Just curious, how far do you sit from your screen, Jay?

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Well, think of it this way. It's not like you have to dump your existing DVD collection to adopt HD-DVD or BluRay. Your DVD player isn't going anywhere, and the new decks will be backwards-compatible. There's no reason you can't continue to enjoy your DVD collection while making new purchases of HD material. I certainly won't get rid of my DVDs until they have HD replacements. And I certainly wouldn't worry about HD-DVD/BluRay failing. I'd say there's a very slim chance of that. It also won't be replaced for MANY years. All the studios are currently doing their HD masters in 1080p. They'd have to go back and do the masters again if they wanted to go even higher, not to mention the fact that going higher than 1080p would yield no benefit to 99% of consumers. Only people with 100"+ projection screens would benefit from that.

In your case, and in the case of many others, screen size is what determines your need for HD. Viewing distance also comes into play. I'd say for the majority of users, DVD is more than satisfying at 60" or less. The differences between DVD and HD are less apparent, especially if you haven't been exposed to significant amounts of good HD material. For me, aside from resolution, color accuracy and depth are the most noticeable improvements. If you ever have occasion to see the exact same material in both DVD format and HD (I see this quite often because many of my DVDs are broadcast in HD on HBO and Showtime), the differences are easier to spot. I watched a bit of Matrix Reloaded on HBO in HD a while back, and even the reference-quality image on the DVD couldn't touch the HD version.

Another issue is the ability of the display to resolve everything HD has to offer. Most CRT-based projection TVs are limited to 1080i/540p (or 480p if your TV supports it natively, many don't). A select few support and can actually resolve 720p. The holy grail--for now anyway--is 1080p. It's really only possible on CRT displays with 9" guns and the latest digital displays. As 1080p-capable digital displays filter down to more reasonable price brackets, then you'll see HD in its full glory and the differences will be much more apparent.

I sit about 11' away from my screen. I have a Sharp Z12000 DLP projector, which is 1280x720. I'd like more pixels than that. It looks really good, especially after I calibrated it with a colorimeter (HD looks like film), but I can still make out the pixel structure sometimes. Contrast is about 4000:1, and with the lights out it looks like a giant plasma.
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Sounds like a nice set-up. I assume you've gone and calibrated the gray-scale, tightened the guns, etc. It reminds me of Bjoern's.

The one thing I don't like about HD on HBO and Showtime is that more often or not they're broadcast in 1.85:1 regardless of their OAR. Very annoying.

Depending on how the new formats due, I'll probably just double-dip on the essentials.

Jimbo, what set-up are you using?

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Currently I have a 26" widescreen. It is a very low end digital model but even then DVDs look alot better through the progressive scan. I am saving up for a 1080p TV after HD-DVD is released. By then they should be cheap enough.
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One thing I don't believe that HD-DVD will make SD-DVD obsolete anytime soon. Titles on HD-DVD will be very slow at first. All HD-DVD players will be backwards compatible and HD-DVD players will make SD-DVDs look there best. You'll be glad that you have your many SD-DVDs to watch until there High Definition replacements arrive. Also since HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have the same size, shape, and lasers I am sure there will eventually be a player that plays both formats.
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Doubtful. Blu-Ray uses blue lasers... HD-DVD uses red. Though with the way technology is I wouldn't be surprised.

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Originally posted by: bad_karma24
Doubtful. Blu-Ray uses blue lasers... HD-DVD uses red. Though with the way technology is I wouldn't be surprised.


HD-DVD uses blue lasers too.
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Originally posted by: bad_karma24
Sounds like a nice set-up. I assume you've gone and calibrated the gray-scale, tightened the guns, etc. It reminds me of Bjoern's.

The one thing I don't like about HD on HBO and Showtime is that more often or not they're broadcast in 1.85:1 regardless of their OAR. Very annoying.


It's a DLP, which is digital. No guns to tighten Focus is tack-sharp and doesn't require all the fiddling CRTs do. I did grayscale and complete color calibration using a colorimeter and test patterns (OpticONE and Avia PRO). The Sharp 12K has a highly configurable user menu that allows you to adjust not only red, green, and blue bias/gain, but also adjust the color decoder so you can plot red, green, blue, yellow, cyan, and magenta on a CIE chart with near-perfect accuracy. I calibrated the projector to mimic the characteristics of SMPTE-C phosphors, which are the phosphors used in professional monitors during mastering. I'm about as close to seeing what the telecine operator sees when he creates a master from original film stock as anyone can be.

Bjoern has an incredible setup though. My "theater" is really just an extra 14' x 11' bedroom in my apartment that I dedicated to my movie watching activities. I'll probably be buying a house in the next few years, and when that happens I'll design and build a true home theater. Should be fun.

HBO does tend to crop scope films to 1.78:1 (16:9), which sucks. Sometimes they open up the mattes on Super 35 stuff like they did with Harry Potter, which also sucks. Showtime is almost always OAR.
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I am against the croping of 2.35 movies to 1.78. Its the same as croping a 1.85 movie to 1.33. However I do agree with the opening of the mattes on Super 35 movies.
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Originally posted by: jimbo
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Originally posted by: bad_karma24
Doubtful. Blu-Ray uses blue lasers... HD-DVD uses red. Though with the way technology is I wouldn't be surprised.


HD-DVD uses blue lasers too.


Where does it say this? Everything I've heard says it uses red lasers.
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However I do agree with the opening of the mattes on Super 35 movies.


Why do you agree with that? You still get stuff cropped off the sides, and whenever a special effect comes in, it is often matted in 2.35:1 so you're losing information.

In any case, I still like seeing Super 35 movies in 2.35:1, because that's how the director wanted them to be viewed, and it feels less like I'm watching TV.

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No wonder you have been saying the wrong things. You really don't know what you are talking about HD-DVD and Blu-Ray use the same lasers. Red Laser HD-DVD was rejected.
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Simply because they use the same lasers doesn't necessarily mean they can play different discs. If they can't decode the video then they have a problem.

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Originally posted by: bad_karma24
Simply because they use the same lasers doesn't necessarily mean they can play different discs. If they can't decode the video then they have a problem.


Both formats use the same lasers and same video quality. So my guess is that they will enventually release a player compatible with both formats. The formats will launch incompatible. Recently they have released Players that play both DVD-A and SA-CD.
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Originally posted by: jimbo
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Originally posted by: bad_karma24
Simply because they use the same lasers doesn't necessarily mean they can play different discs. If they can't decode the video then they have a problem.


Both formats use the same lasers and same video quality. So my guess is that they will enventually release a player compatible with both formats. The formats will launch incompatible. Recently they have released Players that play both DVD-A and SA-CD.


Same video quality? You mean the same codecs?

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I think he means same resolution values in terms of PQ. Artifacting and other quality problems are another matter, but are steadily improving. I remember the first time I saw DVD rez DivX files. For the most part they looked good, but they still had problems with handling subtler textures like smoke and clouds. The codecs have gotten better since then, though and the WM9 hi def versions of T2 and Standing in the Shadows of Motown must be seen to be believed.

For the record, jimbo is correct when he states that both systems will be using blue lasers. Why blue? Narrower bandwidth, smaller pits, therefore more storage space. Hence the claims of 30GB for HD-DVD and 50GB for Blu-Ray. While an MPEG-4 HD system using red lasers was proposed and is in the manufacturing stage, this was not the format officially adopted by the DVD Forum and is currently only being developed in China for that market.

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I knew I heard that HD-DVD was using red lasers

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Red laser MPEG-4 was one of the proposed formats for HD-DVD, as were Blu-Ray and AOD. AOD was the one chosen by the DVD Forum, hence its rechristening as HD-DVD.

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Originally posted by: GundarkHunter
Red laser MPEG-4 was one of the proposed formats for HD-DVD, as were Blu-Ray and AOD. AOD was the one chosen by the DVD Forum, hence its rechristening as HD-DVD.


Not true. Blu-Ray was never proposed to the forum. Thats my one of my biggest problem with the format. If it was proposed to the forum and failed I wouldn't mind Sony trying what they are doing. The fact that it was never proposed pisses me off.
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My bad. Blu-Ray wasn't proposed because Sony was attempting to market it as a recordable format first. Thanks, jimbo.

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