Commander Courage- That question was for you- I knew you in particular would have a lot to say about this
I’ve been reading the AdigitalMan thread, Episode III fan edit thread, and others, and I saw some of your ideas. This is another one of those things that I didn’t want to have to deal with (like the Padme Queen/Senator issue), and I definitely needed advice on this. Not only have you provided this, but you have provided some major inspiration for Episode III. More to follow- I will go through your excellent suggestions one by one:I am going with your option 2.
“Qui-Gon dissapearing in the fire? Again, logically there would be some kind of reaction/response, so I'd say leave this as-is.”
“in early screening of TPM, Qui-Gon's body did indeed dissapear in the fire. This would be something to consider, but then what about everyone watching? Surely now that it's been established Jedi DON'T dissapear, there would be some sort of reaction if Jinn did.”
This is a good idea, though- Qui-Gon could disappear in the fire like Anakin was supposed to in ROTJ. This didn’t occur to me. About the reaction? I could probably find a way around this, like…camera pans over to Palpatine, who is staring ahead at something (longer than he was in the original). The scene ends with a shot of the fire, only…Qui-Gon has completely disappeared. CUT to celebration.
This does many things. We don’t have to deal with the reaction of the crowd, because the scene ends with the disappearance. We know that Palpatine saw what had happened and is disturbed by it (as well as the loss of his apprentice). And best of all, we know Qui-Gon actually disappears in the fire and becomes one with the force. I just don’t like the idea that Qui-Gon died, and somehow after he was dead he managed to find out how to come back as a ghost in his original form. I like the idea that during his life, he worked towards discovering this secret so that when he died, he was able to fade away. It was a result of his brilliance and hard work in life.
“Anakin SHOULD have dissapeared”
Yes, but if I’m not mistaken, I believe his physical face was visible during the burning scene. I would have to check on that.
“The problem with what I think you were getting at, TM, was that there can be no conversaions between Qui-Gon and the characters.”
Right. It can’t be like Empire; it has to be like SW when Obi-Wan spoke up at emotional high points.
“At some point during the space battle, when Anakin fires the torpedoes into the reactor for example, have Qui-Gon in his head: "Concentrate on the moment. Feel, don't think. Use your instincts." Qui-Gon is straddling life and death here, so this could be interpreted as either a rememberance (he told Anakin this before the pod race), Force user-to-Force user communication (Luke and Vader at the end of ESB), or advice from the netherworld (Obi-Wan in ANH).”
Yes- I LOVE this idea. Anakin goes from not having a clue what he’s doing the whole time to not having a clue until he hears Qui-Gon. Then, he has control. Great parallel to SW, also.
“When Obi-Wan is hanging in the pit, have Qui-Gon is his head: "Always be mindful of your surroundings." Then he remembers Jinn's lightsaber is still there and leaps up to kill Maul. That could be interpreted as the latter two options from above.”
Good idea to have some Qui-Gon dialogue there- however, when I get to Ep. I, I’ll probably think about using some other dialogue there that works better dramatically. You never know…
“I thought about having Qui-Gon die after "Promise me you will train the boy," (assumming you would keep that line), then have "He will bring balance. Train him," echo in the long shot, in Obi-Wan's head I assume. But that might be a little weird.”
That would probably come off as weird style-wise. However, I like the idea of him dying after saying “Promise me you will train the boy.” I could possibly manipulate dialogue to make him say, “The boy will bring balance. Promise me you will train him.” Anyway, plenty of time to think about that.
“I mentioned this before, but perhaps have some of Qui-Gon's tone poem in Anakin's head at the funeral. "It will be a hard life. One without reward, without remorse, without regret." This would tie-in with the dream in your Episode 2, but again it might be a bit out of place.”
Maybe, but less so than the previous example. This could work, but I’d have to test it multiple ways.
“You know thinking about it, maybe we could weave a sub-plot here of Qui-Gon being responsible for Anakin's nightmares, trying to warn him about the future. He always starts off Anakin's dreams, and in RotS they could be continual visions with not only Padme, but maybe a glimpse of Vader and his future evil? Just a thought; not sure if/how that would work.”
Ha ha- I know how it would work. After I read that, I realized how this would work. And it’s going to be so spectacularly creepy that I don’t even want to give it away yet. I will say that this will work VERY well and will make the story that much richer. Also, think “Vertigo” again (although that probably won’t help.) Anyway, thank you for some MAJOR inspiration.
“Some kind of dialogue alteration after the Tusken massacare. Replacing the "NO!" first and foremost. Getting two different "Anakin"s would be nice too, making it seem less like a cut and paste job. Any additional stuff you can think of.’
Yeah, I’m not sure about that yet, but something is guaranteed to be different about this.
“A prefect line that could go several places (from Batman Begins): "Your anger gives you great power but [if you let it] it will destroy you." The place I have in mind of it is when Anakin looks into the suns on Mustafar, before he sheds a tear.”
Very good idea. I can definitely use that line at some point. Also, thinking ahead to that scene, as much as everyone praises the music for that scene as being the highest emotional point for them, etc. etc- I really don’t like it, believe it or not. It was interesting the first time because it was a novel and completely different approach, but I would like to rescore this with something more sad/beautiful in romantic style. This will likely be an unpopular change- oh, well.
“Reconstructing the Yoda scene in some way. What I think everyone is forgetting is that they still need the Yoda part, which will never be released. And since it all has to be pieced together from different sources anyway, alter and expand it to not only explain the secret of immortality, but Qui-Gon expresses some responsibility for what happened in regards to Anakin.”
I’m probably not going to be able to do this myself. If MagnoliaFan or AdigitalMan want to take a stab at it, then perhaps I can use the scene if it works out in their versions. But I don’t know how to go about replacing both Yoda and Qui-gon dialogue.
“After Obi-Wan says "Qui-Gon!", maybe a line or two from Jinn would be appropriate. No "Teach you how to commune with him, I will," rather something from Qui-Gon along the lines of, "Yes Obi-Wan. I will guide you..."
This is more likely what I’ll do with this. Maybe I could even put some kind of non-talking on-screen Qui-Gon ghost image by Yoda. I do agree that actually seeing Qui-Gon after he dies in Ep. I would really drive the point home, and things would make much more sense.
“Considering this last scene, Obi-Wan should not hear from Qui-Gon after he has officially died. This leaves my first two suggestions possible, and reserves surprise for Obi-Wan in RotS. That works very well considering there's not many quiet moments for him to hear Qui-Gon in the first place.”
Sounds good to me- I didn’t have plans for his talking to Obi-Wan to begin with
Thanks for those great suggestions!
“One thing I was thinking about one day though was to possibly have Annie see quigon's ghost while he's dying on mustafar. It'll of course parallel luke in a similar situation, seeing Obi-wan's ghost in the clouds on Hoth, more of those repeated events that lucas says he's aiming for I guess. he'll say "Your midichlorians are evil now." or something like that.”
Hi there! If I were to put an image of Qui-Gon in the Mustafar scene, he would not talk. He would shimmer in the background maybe, but he would not talk to Anakin. More likely than actually putting his ghost there would be to have Anakin cry out for Qui-Gon’s help as he burns. Qui-Gon doesn’t answer as Anakin screams in pain and calls for Qui-Gon. I can do this due to the dubbing. This would bring up a bunch of interesting Biblical parallels that I don’t want to discuss now
Good idea, though. Oh, and by the way- I HATE midichlorians with a passion and they will not be included in my saga. MtHaslett- I Understand where you’re coming from, too. It’s not that the simple interpration is incorrect, it’s just that it’s a stretch and it doesn’t seem to be enough. What has actually gone on with the force ghosts is not explained well at all through the six movies, and elaborating on it serves many purposes. It makes for an overall richer story and also works very well dramatically (Qui-Gon communicating with Anakin and Obi-Wan in Ep. I, Qui-Gon somehow trying to interfere with Palpatine’s dreams and adding his own messages to them.
“What advice from Qui Gon would make Ep II better?”
“If you add Qui-Gon throughout Ep I, II, and III as a voice offering advice and such, you'll be creating more questions than you answer for me.”
Right- but the only time Qui-Gon shows up in Episode II is 1. At the beginning of the dream, and 2. After the Tusken slaughter. In Episode I, he is not dead until the end. Therefore, anything that he says could be interpreted as memories or as direct communication using the force. And in III, his words echo through Anakin’s head, much like Palpatine’s did at the beginning. And then of course we have the ending. So this isn’t creating any questions for me- throughout the PT, Qui-Gon voice keeps coming back. He isn’t watching everything and commenting on everything, saying “Don’t kiss that girl!” “Palpatine is a Sith lord!” etc. You remember that in the original trilogy, Obi-Wan was allowed to do some things and not others (like giving Luke advice when he fought Vader and the Emperor). Even Yoda was restricted in this way.
Anyway…
STILL working on the balcony scene, playing with the footage and slowing down/speeding up things to get good lip synch with Anakin (because he’s saying completely different things).
I had to make “I love you.” synch with “I don’t like sand.”
I have to make “I’ve loved you ever since I first saw you ten years ago.” fit with “It’s rough, and course, and irritating. Not like here…”etc. Because there are certain things you can’t do, and one of them is cutting away from a well-framed shot in a slower scene after 3 or 4 seconds. Anyway…it’s coming.
Thank you all for your patience with me- thanks Darth Simon for contributing as well. Nobody (well, almost nobody) does not contribute in some way when they post here. Please continue!