If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place — Page 461

I take it back. Even well rested I still feel disinterested with everything.

Fanfiction can be very hit or miss. The author has to really have the same taste as you and also be an actually competent writer, although that second point is a bit looser with smut, which is the only reason I ever bother with fanfiction.

I want to bitch about something, and it concerns the sex industry in general, particularly pornography and prostitution.

I am fed up with the constant shaming of sex workers as if they are lesser human beings. At the end of the day those who do porn are entertainers, and the actors in particular are consenting adults who are doing videos for our personal enjoyment. As for prostitutes, some of us want to unwind and enjoy the pleasures of the flesh and have little to no patience for seduction games.

Most of us are horny, and I think it’s time we accept that part of ourselves and not feel ashamed about it.

The way society treats porn in general as some sort of taboo is really problematic.

But often it’s not. Many porn workers are not freely consenting adults, but people who have been forced into the position.

Millions of people around the world are forced into the sex/porn “industry” including thousands in North America (that web page goes over just those who contacted a certain hotline–there are likely many more).

Pornhub is becoming notorious for its exploitation of women:

• Pornhub was sued by 40 victims of Girls Do Porn;
• Mia Khalifa’s story is well-known and quite tragic;
• Pornhub has long benefited from videos of rapes and child pornography;
• Here’s another personal story.

Yes, there is probably consent involved most of the time, but enough of the time there isn’t that you never really know when you’re watching porn whether it’s consensual or not.

Beyond that, however, it objectifies women by its very nature. People used to consensually sell themselves into slavery, but that didn’t make it OK. I don’t see why it’s OK to objectify other people whether or not they consent. It’s impossible to watch porn and see the actors/performers in their full humanity, as ends in themselves and not just means to one’s personal pleasure. The same goes for prostitution. Not to mention that porn can be addictive, like anything that creates a dopamine rush, and often does create dependencies, as I have seen in several people (and have heard about in many more).

RicOlie_2 said:

But often it’s not. Many porn workers are not freely consenting adults, but people who have been forced into the position.

Millions of people around the world are forced into the sex/porn “industry” including thousands in North America (that web page goes over just those who contacted a certain hotline–there are likely many more).

Pornhub is becoming notorious for its exploitation of women:

• Pornhub was sued by 40 victims of Girls Do Porn;
• Mia Khalifa’s story is well-known and quite tragic;
• Pornhub has long benefited from videos of rapes and child pornography;
• Here’s another personal story.

Yes, there is probably consent involved most of the time, but enough of the time there isn’t that you never really know when you’re watching porn whether it’s consensual or not.

Beyond that, however, it objectifies women by its very nature. People used to consensually sell themselves into slavery, but that didn’t make it OK. I don’t see why it’s OK to objectify other people whether or not they consent. It’s impossible to watch porn and see the actors/performers in their full humanity, as ends in themselves and not just means to one’s personal pleasure. The same goes for prostitution. Not to mention that porn can be addictive, like anything that creates a dopamine rush, and often does create dependencies, as I have seen in several people (and have heard about in many more).

So what are you suggesting? That we abolish the sex industry altogether? What’s next? Subject all human beings to hormone-inhibiting drugs unless it’s with the express purpose of procreation?

Another reason I believe porn should be destigmatized is because once you decide to enter the world of pornography that pretty much closes the possibility of moving on and doing something else, although there are a few stories of performers who left the industry and have had successful post-porn careers, such as Sunny Leone and Sasha Grey.

fmalover said:

So what are you suggesting? That we abolish the sex industry altogether?

Practically speaking? No. Ideally speaking? Yes. It might be possible to eliminate trafficking without putting a stop to the industry, but I think there is something inherently wrong about objectifying human beings.

What’s next? Subject all human beings to hormone-inhibiting drugs unless it’s with the express purpose of procreation?

People survived for thousands of years without porn. Granted, they had prostitutes. But also, speaking as someone who has never done porn or had sex, but whose hormones are very much alive and well, I think a little bit of self-control is far more satisfying than simply giving in to every desire.

Another reason I believe porn should be destigmatized is because once you decide to enter the world of pornography that pretty much closes the possibility of moving on and doing something else, although there are a few stories of performers who left the industry and have had successful post-porn careers, such as Sunny Leone and Sasha Grey.

Is it porn that should be destigmatized then? I think it’s perfectly possible to destigmatize having been a porn worker without destigmatizing consuming porn (and without stigmatizing having strong sexual desires, which is normal and healthy).

RicOlie_2 said:

fmalover said:

So what are you suggesting? That we abolish the sex industry altogether?

Practically speaking? No. Ideally speaking? Yes. It might be possible to eliminate trafficking without putting a stop to the industry, but I think there is something inherently wrong about objectifying human beings.

I don’t think I am objectifying anyone when porn is made for the explicit purpose of my arousal. I fully understand they are people, and if I were to encounter them in person I would simply say hello and be polite.

As for those who made a conscious decision to be pornstars and seem to genuinely enjoy their jobs, do you think they are somehow mentally damaged? Take Angela White for example. She chose the profession and genuinely loves it, or Nina Hartley, who’s been in the business since the 1980s and shows no signs of slowing down.

JackNapier said:

fmalover said:

RicOlie_2 said:

fmalover said:

So what are you suggesting? That we abolish the sex industry altogether?

Practically speaking? No. Ideally speaking? Yes. It might be possible to eliminate trafficking without putting a stop to the industry, but I think there is something inherently wrong about objectifying human beings.

I don’t think I am objectifying anyone when porn is made for the explicit purpose of my arousal. I fully understand they are people, and if I were to encounter them in person I would simply say hello and be polite.

As for those who made a conscious decision to be pornstars and seem to genuinely enjoy their jobs, do you think they are somehow mentally damaged? Take Angela White for example. She chose the profession and genuinely loves it, or Nina Hartley, who’s been in the business since the 1980s and shows no signs of slowing down.

Completely missing the point.

Please elaborate.

Practically speaking? No. Ideally speaking? Yes.

Ah yes. Sex bad. Abstinence good. Rub acid on your parts. Yadda yadda.

I think there is something inherently wrong about objectifying human beings.

I don’t think that’s a reasonable equivalence.

People survived for thousands of years without porn.

People survived for thousands of years without plumbing or antibiotics. Doesn’t mean we should ditch them.

But also, speaking as someone who has never done porn or had sex, but whose hormones are very much alive and well, I think a little bit of self-control is far more satisfying than simply giving in to every desire.

Seriously, are you religious or something?

This conversation is going nowhere. We should probably abort it.

Anakin Starkiller said:

Practically speaking? No. Ideally speaking? Yes.

Ah yes. Sex bad. Abstinence good. Rub acid on your parts. Yadda yadda.

Please show me where I said that. I can understand why you might have that perception of me, especially if you’re American, but please try to realize that there are not simply binary options out there.

As I said about, sexual desire is healthy and normal, and it is healthy and normal because sex is good. In fact, I would say sex is one of the best things on the planet. I just don’t think making it into an industry is good. I think that sex is, normally, an expression of love between two consenting adults, and to make it into entertainment cheapens it and normalizes the sexual objectification of human beings, which is deeply harmful.

I think there is something inherently wrong about objectifying human beings.

I don’t think that’s a reasonable equivalence.

Fair enough. If you’re referring to my analogy with slavery, my point was simply that consenting to other people using you doesn’t necessarily make it right. It wasn’t to say that all sex workers are slaves.

People survived for thousands of years without porn.

People survived for thousands of years without plumbing or antibiotics. Doesn’t mean we should ditch them.

Then please explain how porn has enormously benefited society.

But also, speaking as someone who has never done porn or had sex, but whose hormones are very much alive and well, I think a little bit of self-control is far more satisfying than simply giving in to every desire.

Seriously, are you religious or something?

What difference does it make? You say that like it’s a bad thing. I came to my views independent of religion and only subsequently embraced my current religious beliefs, so it has little bearing on my views here.

This conversation is going nowhere. We should probably abort it.

If that’s how you feel. But speak for yourself, because I think a good discussion could still be had.

fmalover said:

RicOlie_2 said:

fmalover said:

So what are you suggesting? That we abolish the sex industry altogether?

Practically speaking? No. Ideally speaking? Yes. It might be possible to eliminate trafficking without putting a stop to the industry, but I think there is something inherently wrong about objectifying human beings.

I don’t think I am objectifying anyone when porn is made for the explicit purpose of my arousal. I fully understand they are people, and if I were to encounter them in person I would simply say hello and be polite.

As for those who made a conscious decision to be pornstars and seem to genuinely enjoy their jobs, do you think they are somehow mentally damaged? Take Angela White for example. She chose the profession and genuinely loves it, or Nina Hartley, who’s been in the business since the 1980s and shows no signs of slowing down.

Your position makes sense to me, but I don’t think I fully agree with it. We may see objectification differently, but I would say that deriving sexual pleasure from someone outside of a relationship with that person inherently involves objectifying them, even if you are not seeing them as mere objects.

I don’t think pornstars are mentally damaged. I think there certainly are people who like performing sex for others. I’m just not convinced that it’s healthy for society to see sex as entertainment, divorced from any kind of personal relationship.

RicOlie_2 said:

fmalover said:

RicOlie_2 said:

fmalover said:

So what are you suggesting? That we abolish the sex industry altogether?

Practically speaking? No. Ideally speaking? Yes. It might be possible to eliminate trafficking without putting a stop to the industry, but I think there is something inherently wrong about objectifying human beings.

I don’t think I am objectifying anyone when porn is made for the explicit purpose of my arousal. I fully understand they are people, and if I were to encounter them in person I would simply say hello and be polite.

As for those who made a conscious decision to be pornstars and seem to genuinely enjoy their jobs, do you think they are somehow mentally damaged? Take Angela White for example. She chose the profession and genuinely loves it, or Nina Hartley, who’s been in the business since the 1980s and shows no signs of slowing down.

Your position makes sense to me, but I don’t think I fully agree with it. We may see objectification differently, but I would say that deriving sexual pleasure from someone outside of a relationship with that person inherently involves objectifying them, even if you are not seeing them as mere objects.

I don’t think pornstars are mentally damaged. I think there certainly are people who like performing sex for others. I’m just not convinced that it’s healthy for society to see sex as entertainment, divorced from any kind of personal relationship.

Well guess what, porn is outlawed in countries with authoritarian and very repressive regimes such as Cuba, China and the middle east. Does that mean their societies are better than the ones where it’s legal?

Salman Rushdie once remarked that pornography is one of the most effective ways to measure freedom of expression.

I am not American. I am Canadian. Big difference.

I just held a funeral for an old hobby of mine. Moved the last remaining displays into storage, aside from two I don’t know where to put. This had been a long time coming, as I’d hung up the towel ages ago. It’s really hard because I didn’t do this because I wanted to, I did it because it was for the best.

LEGO is just too expensive. Do drugs instead. /s

It especially hurts because it felt like my last link to the physical world. I now feel truly detached from it. Sorta like being enlightened but in a bad way. I feel like everything is just this other. It’s not real. It’s been making my life miserable for years. I want to reconnect with the world.

Oh and this is what you sound like, Ric_Olie2.

Well, that’s likely because you’re not reading what I’m actually saying, so good for you.

There’s not really that much of a difference between American and Canadian society, although I would say American Christianity is more typically puritanical than Canadian Christianity, which is where I thought your assumptions were coming from. But that’s a big assumption on my part, because Canadians often have the same perceptions. The idea that there is a black and white binary between thinking sex is dirty and thinking porn is great is unfortunate. It leads to a lot of misunderstanding.

BTW, I’m not attacking your freedom to do porn. We live in free countries. You can do what you’d like. But if you complain about people stigmatizing it, be aware that people who think that porn devalues and cheapens sex by divorcing it from love and relationship are going to speak up. I think the stigma is fully justified (and I don’t really think there’s much of a stigma anyway in most of society; certainly not in my generation).

There’s not really that much of a difference between American and Canadian society, although I would say American Christianity is more typically puritanical than Canadian Christianity, which is where I thought your assumptions were coming from.

I’m atheist. As far as I can tell most people here my age are non-religious.