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Post #1439852

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I abhor the "X undoes Y's accomplishments" criticism so much.
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Date created
14-Jul-2021, 10:53 PM
Last modified
15-Jul-2021, 1:04 AM
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Servii said:

Dude, the literal reason she sent Ben to Luke was because she saw him as another Vader. She overcomes this when training Rey, whom she knew as Palps’ grandkid.

This is never said in the movies.

Can’t remember the exact dialogue, but…

HAN: There was too much Vader in him.

LEIA: That’s why I had him train with Luke.

Ben also felt betrayed by Han and Luke, as established in TFA and TLJ, respectively.

You know what I was saying about how the ST made the OT heroes into bad people and failures? This is partly why. Leia, Han, and Luke apparently did such a terrible job of raising Ben that he sees himself as a victim of their mistreatment. ST Luke and ST Han are horrible people.

And they overcame their mistakes. Luke even apologizes to Ben on Crait.

Ben is making up for his mistakes and loves Rey. He had no idea resurrecting her would kill him. By your logic, Vader had no agency when saving Luke from Palps.

Except Anakin killed Palpatine, thereby saving the galaxy and destroying the Sith. Kylo didn’t do squat except give Palpatine access to that precious Force Dyad, then revive Rey. He could have been completely removed from the climax of the film.

No. Ben proves Rey is valuable by showing up to save her, and his sacrifice accomplishes what Anakin could not - saving a loved one from death.


Because there’s no rhyme or reason to what happened on Crait from an observer’s perspective. Kylo swings his saber at Luke for a while. Luke dodges. Luke turns out to be an apparition or something, then vanishes. And most people won’t even know that Luke died, so it’s barely even an heroic act, from their perspective. It would just be seen as strange by most people.

Except the FO shot down Luke and he “survived” anyways. He’s “invincible” compared to the FO. That’s what the galaxy sees Luke as - an infalliable legendary hero who’s perfect and invincible.

To undermine him and mock him. It’s like kids mocking their parents behind their backs.

Wow, what an intimidating faction. I can totally take them seriously as villains.

How does this ruin their intimidation?


And the galaxy’s freaking huge! A shipful of people can’t spread a story like that across thousands of planets. The scale of this world is simply too enormous for that to happen.

And yet Vader’s redemption spread across the galaxy anyways.

Again, the FO is not doing well. And we literally see them standing up at the end of TROS.

You keep saying they’re not doing well, yet have no real evidence for it.

“The First Order will become a true Empire.” Kylo wants to hog Palpatine’s fleet for himself. They’re shown to be smaller than in TLJ.

And what took those people so long to stand up? Why did they ignore the call for help on Crait?

Because the galaxy was hopeless until Luke showed up on Crait. Even Leia lost hope at that point.


The Resistance is freaking boring, dude. And the new characters are flat and poorly written. It’s as simple as that.

Care to elaborate?

Han NEVER abandoned his family.

What movie were you watching? Han and Leia are basically divorced, and Han left Leia to go off and play at being a smuggler again, while she was left alone to fight off their son’s regime with her tiny army. Luke had just abandoned her, then Han abandoned her too, when she needed support the most. Han. Abandoned. His family.

He literally felt ashamed for Ben’s fall. That’s the point. He didn’t want to be reminded of that. His smuggling days were to cope with that guilt. And he overcomes it anyways.

Again, it allowed the Resistance to destroy Starkiller. D’Qar would’ve been destroyed had it not been for Han.

He had already done that. Facing Kylo was needless for that goal.

Kylo killing Han was literally the thing that caused Chewie to shoot him and ignite the bombs. Had it not been for his injury, Rey would’ve lost and certainly wouldn’t have defeated Palpatine.

And his actions inspired the galaxy anyway.

At no point is it said that the fleet attacking Exegol was there because they were “inspired by Luke.” That’s just conjecture on your part.

It’s fucking INFERENCE. I’m looking at surrounding facts, putting two and two together and drawing a conclusion to them.

The Trade Federation in TPM and the Separatists pre-clones in AOTC say otherwise.

The Trade Federation was still considered a legitimate business within the Republic during TPM.

They were the ones invading Naboo and who have the droid army.

And as soon as the CIS was formed, the question of forming an army to counter them was quickly raised. Because of the emergency nature of the situation, it made sense to use a clone army that had already been produced rather than raising one manually from member planets. The whole point of Palpatine engineering the founding of the CIS was to place the Republic in a no-win situation, where they had to militarize, but in doing so, they accepted the Clone Army, which was created under shady circumstances and ultimately answered only to Palpatine. That was the source of the downfall. Having a recruited self-defense force is not comparable to that.

That’s not the point. The point is that an army made the Republic become the Empire.

Dude, Palpatine has NO OTHER CLONES BY TROS, and Rey killed him for good but NOT IN HATRED. And if they DO bring him back post-TROS, it WOULD undermine Rey’s arc (that’s fo’ anotha’ discussion, too). Lucasfilm wouldn’t want to do that.

As far as we know, Palpatine doesn’t need a clone, just any new body.

If that was the case, Palpatine would’ve possessed Snoke or contacted the Kaminoans to create a new healthy clone specifically for this.

And how do we know he doesn’t have another secret clone planet somewhere else?

How do you know he DOES? And he was overconfident.

Anakin killed Palpatine out of love for his son. Shouldn’t that have been enough, then?

Oh, of course. God forbid we undermine Rey’s arc. Undermining Anakin’s and Luke’s arcs is totally fine, though.

Except it DOESN’T undermine Anakin and Luke’s arcs.

Dude, “cheat death” refers to keeping yourself alive. Look it up. And he CAN’T be referring to Anakin wanting to save Padme. Otherwise Anakin would be upset that Palps lied to him about knowing how to save Padme.

Let’s revisit the scene:

“Just help me save Padme’s life. I can’t live without her.”

“To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.”

He’s CLEARLY talking about cheating Padme’s death. And yeah, Anakin should have been mad at Palpatine for misleading him about it, but no one said the dialogue in RotS was perfect.

And Palpatine obviously isn’t referring to himself here when he mentions the “only one,” so by process of elimination, he’s talking about Plagueis. That’s the only person he could be referring to.

Dude, Palpatine is reinforcing that Anakin needs to do his bidding. Replace it with “We need to take a shit on my cousin’s car” and it would still retain the meaning.