Help: looking for... The Muppet Show: Watermarkless content — Page 2

I’m new to this thread. Did a best case scenerio for these materials find a concensus? Mr. Coleslaw’s or the russian set? Thanks!

JayArgonaut said:

BestArchivist15 said:

I am also wondering if anyone would happen to have a watermarkless version of the episode guest starring Chris Langham from Season 5.

Disney have pulled the episode because Langham is a convicted sex offender who was incarcerated for downloading and watching clips on multiple computers of little girls being raped. You want to preserve and share a pulled TV episode featuring a guest appearance of this man? Do you really not see that this is wrong?

I’m not sure what’s worse: the intent - or the justifications and mental gymnastics (probably whatabouttery citing Polanski) that are bound to ensue.

Mods: if you temp-ban me, fine - but this is messed up on so many levels.

Granted, I know Langham has done some bad things, but there are some moments in the Chris Langham episode of The Muppet Show that don’t have Langham. They are “Friendship”, “Maybe It’s Because I’m a Londoner”, and “The Gnu”, as well as some backstage scenes.

I don’t think you understand the point of preservation. It’s not about your agreeing with the content.

JayArgonaut said:

BestArchivist15 said:

I am also wondering if anyone would happen to have a watermarkless version of the episode guest starring Chris Langham from Season 5.

Disney have pulled the episode because Langham is a convicted sex offender who was incarcerated for downloading and watching clips on multiple computers of little girls being raped. You want to preserve and share a pulled TV episode featuring a guest appearance of this man? Do you really not see that this is wrong?

I’m not sure what’s worse: the intent - or the justifications and mental gymnastics (probably whatabouttery citing Polanski) that are bound to ensue.

Mods: if you temp-ban me, fine - but this is messed up on so many levels.

Chris Langham was a writer for “The Muppet Show” for three years, so if you believe that his creative work should be completely suppressed, you should be directing your anger at Disney for NOT blocking the majority of it.

Sthunderrocker said:

I don’t think you understand the point of preservation. It’s not about your agreeing with the content.

Well said

Sthunderrocker said:

I don’t think you understand the point of preservation. It’s not about your agreeing with the content.

Or disagreeing, either. We’re supposed to preserve things that have Harsher In Hindsight moments and Unfortunate Implications for our children to teach them about those things, why they’re wrong, and what can be done to prevent more usages of those tropes in the future (sorry, I’ve spent too much time on TV Tropes… and yes, just like it says it will do to everyone, it has ruined my life).

https://muppetus.blogspot.com/2021/07/the-famous-muppet-show-on-dvd.html

I think you guys should look at this, it might be interesting… but as the framerate for the DVDs the guy has appears to be 25fps, I’m not sure if it’s worth it or not.

25 fps is the correct frame rate for “The Muppet Show”, it was shot in the UK. I do think the idea of referring to the Disney upscaled deinterlaced streaming versions as “HD” is misleading (at best), though.

If we’re simply looking to restore missing scenes, and are less concerned about quality, I have (what I believe to be) every episode ripped from old VHS recordings. Quality is what you’d expect, but at least it’s all there.

If anyone is still working this project, let me know if that would be of use.

jayhawk618 said:

If we’re simply looking to restore missing scenes, and are less concerned about quality, I have (what I believe to be) every episode ripped from old VHS recordings. Quality is what you’d expect, but at least it’s all there.

If anyone is still working this project, let me know if that would be of use.

I’m still wanting to do this project. It’s just that some of the other guys may be busy as of now.

MrColeslaw said:

BestArchivist15 said:
That looks great! Are you able to provide a link to all the logoless versions of Seasons 4 and 5 episodes available, or at least the logoless version of the Chris Langham episode?

Yep, can definitely do that! Can’t share links publicly bc the site doesn’t allow it but when they’re up I’ll shoot DMs to everyone involved in the thread right now. Fair warning, it may take a few days, the files are pretty large and my internet isn’t stellar haha. They seem to be sitting in prepacked PAL ISOs with menus and chapters so I may just leave them as-is and offer the ISOs if that’s alright? Would probably save me some time in uploading instead of extracting them all from the ISOs (I only have a few extracted as MPEG it seems, but those few are also on the discs). I’d wager there’s a good bunch of episodes in here worth value to a preservation project and it may be easiest to just send everything I have 😃

Are you able to send me the Chris Langford Episode too?

n8klayko said:

MrColeslaw said:

BestArchivist15 said:
That looks great! Are you able to provide a link to all the logoless versions of Seasons 4 and 5 episodes available, or at least the logoless version of the Chris Langham episode?

Yep, can definitely do that! Can’t share links publicly bc the site doesn’t allow it but when they’re up I’ll shoot DMs to everyone involved in the thread right now. Fair warning, it may take a few days, the files are pretty large and my internet isn’t stellar haha. They seem to be sitting in prepacked PAL ISOs with menus and chapters so I may just leave them as-is and offer the ISOs if that’s alright? Would probably save me some time in uploading instead of extracting them all from the ISOs (I only have a few extracted as MPEG it seems, but those few are also on the discs). I’d wager there’s a good bunch of episodes in here worth value to a preservation project and it may be easiest to just send everything I have 😃

Are you able to send me the Chris Langford Episode too?

*Langham

BestArchivist15 said:

n8klayko said:

MrColeslaw said:

BestArchivist15 said:
That looks great! Are you able to provide a link to all the logoless versions of Seasons 4 and 5 episodes available, or at least the logoless version of the Chris Langham episode?

Yep, can definitely do that! Can’t share links publicly bc the site doesn’t allow it but when they’re up I’ll shoot DMs to everyone involved in the thread right now. Fair warning, it may take a few days, the files are pretty large and my internet isn’t stellar haha. They seem to be sitting in prepacked PAL ISOs with menus and chapters so I may just leave them as-is and offer the ISOs if that’s alright? Would probably save me some time in uploading instead of extracting them all from the ISOs (I only have a few extracted as MPEG it seems, but those few are also on the discs). I’d wager there’s a good bunch of episodes in here worth value to a preservation project and it may be easiest to just send everything I have 😃

Are you able to send me the Chris Langford Episode too?

*Langham

Yes, my bad… was typing fast. Chris Langham

jongraeme said:

I’ve encountered someone who has explained a little more of the origins of the different edits. From what I understand:

They first produced a master ‘international’ edit, which runs to about 25m30s. These featured three fades for commercial breaks; one after the opening titles, one mid-show and one just before the end titles. The titles were centred. I am told these should be considered the definitive versions.

From these, a second set of masters were produced that cut a further 2m, reducing the running time to around 23m30s, this was to allow more advertising. These are the ‘short international’ edits, and PAL->NTSC standards converted copies of these were what were originally broadcast in the US.

The ‘UK domestic’ edits were similar in length to the full ‘international’ edits, but with the commercial break fades removed - replacing these with straight cuts, sometimes wipes, sometimes shortening sequences by a few seconds in the process, and occasionally adding brief linking shots to make the transition flow better. These had the left justified credits that included a credit for the guest star.

[There also appear to be a handful of master tapes out there of ‘short UK domestic’ edits, which are the ‘UK domestic’ versions shortened (as per the ‘short international’ edit) to allow an extra couple of minutes of adverts.]

The ‘German domestic’ edits are very close to the full ‘international edits’, but with the opening and closing credits replaced by German language ones. They retain the original ‘international’ cut advert break fades for the most part, and don’t contain the changes made for the ‘UK domestic’ versions. There are a few other changes, an entire extra guest in one episode, a different Waldorf and Statler balcony scene at the end of the Harry Belafonte episode, and possibly other differences.

[There are also other ‘… domestic’ edits in French, possibly Spanish and others, but these have rarely seen the light of day since original broadcast. As with the ‘German domestic’, they are largely based on the ‘international’ cut.]

…. Then Henson acquired the rights and the master tapes. And put together a syndication package. It’s the syndication package that forms the basis of everything that has been seen since.

There is speculation that many of the master tapes had been misplaced at this point, or who knows, it may just be a case of picking up the first tape off the shelf by someone who didn’t know any better. But, the syndication package ended up consisting of approximately 15 ‘uk domestic’ edits, and 105 ‘International’ edits.

[The German market is the only exception, where the episodes are still largely from the original ‘German domestic’ edits. While a bunch of re-mastering work was done for the syndication package, none was done for the German masters, which is why the quality of the German DVDs is not so good]

However, more master tapes than that clearly did survive, as the commercial releases over the years have occasionally thrown in an episode that is not one of the edits that was part of the syndication package.

So, for example, the ‘Season set’ DVDs feature the ‘UK domestic’ cut of the Elton John episode, but the ‘Best of’ DVD sets feature the ‘international’ cut. Most DVD releases of the Charles Aznavour episode feature the ‘International’ cut, but the French DVD used the ‘short UK domestic’ cut.

Another interesting example is the Chris Langham episode, which is one where the syndication package featured the ‘UK domestic’ edit with left-justified titles and edited ad-breaks, and the full ‘international’ edit has never been seen… however the ‘German domestic’ (which should be largely the same as the ‘international cut’) preserves the original ad-break fades… and an extra reaction shot in the ‘shuffling a pack of sausages’ sketch, that would likely be what was seen on the original US broadcast.

… Then, just to complicate things further, Disney acquired the rights and master tapes.

The Disney+ versions appear to be based on the syndication package, which had been extensively cleaned up and remastered for the DVD releases, therefore presenting an eclectic mix of ‘international’ and ‘UK domestic’ edits…

However, there seems to have been a decision to attempt to standardise on the ‘international’ end-credits, as only 4 of the 118 episodes on Disney+ have the ‘UK domestic’ left-justified credits. But rather than switch to the ‘international’ version for the whole episode though, they’ve taken the syndicated ‘UK domestic’ version, and patched on just the titles from the ‘international’ cut, to create a kind of hybrid. (I’m guessing because it avoided more substantial re-mastering of those 11 episodes).

So, from the known high quality sources, approximately 17 episodes are available (or can be reconstructed) of the ‘UK domestic’ versions. 117 (I think) either exist (or can be reconstructed) of the ‘international’ versions.

There are vanishingly few off-airs of any other ‘UK domestic’ cuts beyond that 17 that I’ve been able to find. If they do exist, they’ve largely been pushed out by more recent recordings of the syndication package (likely considered preferable as they would be higher quality).

For anyone interested in more detail… (you’d have to be crazy!), I’m putting together a spreadsheet of episodes, versions, releases, and differences. At least for the stuff I know about.

I would also like the spreadsheet. also let me get this straight, the german dvds are the same source just not remastered?

MrColeslaw said:

BestArchivist15 said:
That looks great! Are you able to provide a link to all the logoless versions of Seasons 4 and 5 episodes available, or at least the logoless version of the Chris Langham episode?

Yep, can definitely do that! Can’t share links publicly bc the site doesn’t allow it but when they’re up I’ll shoot DMs to everyone involved in the thread right now. Fair warning, it may take a few days, the files are pretty large and my internet isn’t stellar haha. They seem to be sitting in prepacked PAL ISOs with menus and chapters so I may just leave them as-is and offer the ISOs if that’s alright? Would probably save me some time in uploading instead of extracting them all from the ISOs (I only have a few extracted as MPEG it seems, but those few are also on the discs). I’d wager there’s a good bunch of episodes in here worth value to a preservation project and it may be easiest to just send everything I have 😃

Do You Still Have It?

jongraeme said:

I’ve encountered someone who has explained a little more of the origins of the different edits. From what I understand:

They first produced a master ‘international’ edit, which runs to about 25m30s. These featured three fades for commercial breaks; one after the opening titles, one mid-show and one just before the end titles. The titles were centred. I am told these should be considered the definitive versions.

From these, a second set of masters were produced that cut a further 2m, reducing the running time to around 23m30s, this was to allow more advertising. These are the ‘short international’ edits, and PAL->NTSC standards converted copies of these were what were originally broadcast in the US.

The ‘UK domestic’ edits were similar in length to the full ‘international’ edits, but with the commercial break fades removed - replacing these with straight cuts, sometimes wipes, sometimes shortening sequences by a few seconds in the process, and occasionally adding brief linking shots to make the transition flow better. These had the left justified credits that included a credit for the guest star.

[There also appear to be a handful of master tapes out there of ‘short UK domestic’ edits, which are the ‘UK domestic’ versions shortened (as per the ‘short international’ edit) to allow an extra couple of minutes of adverts.]

The ‘German domestic’ edits are very close to the full ‘international edits’, but with the opening and closing credits replaced by German language ones. They retain the original ‘international’ cut advert break fades for the most part, and don’t contain the changes made for the ‘UK domestic’ versions. There are a few other changes, an entire extra guest in one episode, a different Waldorf and Statler balcony scene at the end of the Harry Belafonte episode, and possibly other differences.

[There are also other ‘… domestic’ edits in French, possibly Spanish and others, but these have rarely seen the light of day since original broadcast. As with the ‘German domestic’, they are largely based on the ‘international’ cut.]

…. Then Henson acquired the rights and the master tapes. And put together a syndication package. It’s the syndication package that forms the basis of everything that has been seen since.

There is speculation that many of the master tapes had been misplaced at this point, or who knows, it may just be a case of picking up the first tape off the shelf by someone who didn’t know any better. But, the syndication package ended up consisting of approximately 15 ‘uk domestic’ edits, and 105 ‘International’ edits.

[The German market is the only exception, where the episodes are still largely from the original ‘German domestic’ edits. While a bunch of re-mastering work was done for the syndication package, none was done for the German masters, which is why the quality of the German DVDs is not so good]

However, more master tapes than that clearly did survive, as the commercial releases over the years have occasionally thrown in an episode that is not one of the edits that was part of the syndication package.

So, for example, the ‘Season set’ DVDs feature the ‘UK domestic’ cut of the Elton John episode, but the ‘Best of’ DVD sets feature the ‘international’ cut. Most DVD releases of the Charles Aznavour episode feature the ‘International’ cut, but the French DVD used the ‘short UK domestic’ cut.

Another interesting example is the Chris Langham episode, which is one where the syndication package featured the ‘UK domestic’ edit with left-justified titles and edited ad-breaks, and the full ‘international’ edit has never been seen… however the ‘German domestic’ (which should be largely the same as the ‘international cut’) preserves the original ad-break fades… and an extra reaction shot in the ‘shuffling a pack of sausages’ sketch, that would likely be what was seen on the original US broadcast.

… Then, just to complicate things further, Disney acquired the rights and master tapes.

The Disney+ versions appear to be based on the syndication package, which had been extensively cleaned up and remastered for the DVD releases, therefore presenting an eclectic mix of ‘international’ and ‘UK domestic’ edits…

However, there seems to have been a decision to attempt to standardise on the ‘international’ end-credits, as only 4 of the 118 episodes on Disney+ have the ‘UK domestic’ left-justified credits. But rather than switch to the ‘international’ version for the whole episode though, they’ve taken the syndicated ‘UK domestic’ version, and patched on just the titles from the ‘international’ cut, to create a kind of hybrid. (I’m guessing because it avoided more substantial re-mastering of those 11 episodes).

So, from the known high quality sources, approximately 17 episodes are available (or can be reconstructed) of the ‘UK domestic’ versions. 117 (I think) either exist (or can be reconstructed) of the ‘international’ versions.

There are vanishingly few off-airs of any other ‘UK domestic’ cuts beyond that 17 that I’ve been able to find. If they do exist, they’ve largely been pushed out by more recent recordings of the syndication package (likely considered preferable as they would be higher quality).

For anyone interested in more detail… (you’d have to be crazy!), I’m putting together a spreadsheet of episodes, versions, releases, and differences. At least for the stuff I know about.

Hi! I’d like to see that spreadsheet too! 😃

Just curious if anyone is still working on this project? This was one I was looking forward to. I don’t have a whole lot of experience but I’d be happy to help out in some way if needed.

MrColeslaw said:

I’m not sure if this project is still being worked on at all by anyone, but I have the Chris Langham episode logoless. MPEG format, interlaced, from PAL broadcast so original framerate is intact! Quality isn’t too bad to my eye, but maybe someone else would feel differently. No clue where I picked this file up, had it for a year or two. I also have the rest of season 5 and 4 in the same format, I think all logoless, if needed for said project. Some from official releases (I assume the NTSC DVDs but my copies are PAL so I dunno?), the rest from broadcast.

https://imgur.com/a/LUYzoCn

Hello 👋 I am new to this thread and would very much absolutely appreciate the link to this. Pretty please 🙏

Darth telly said:
also let me get this straight, the german dvds are the same source just not remastered?

No, the German DVDs are sourced from the German copy of the masters. The English copy of the masters was remastered, the German copy wasn’t.