Originally posted by: Trooperman
And at this point, I would like to have a discussion about the lack of the Yoda/Qui-Gon scene on the DVD for inclusion in Episode III. This irks me because now, it looks as though there will be no explanation of how to become a force ghost. Maybe a simpler solution is called for…
Maybe, all Jedi can talk to other force-trained people after their deaths. But perhaps Obi-Wan is the first one to figure out how to actually come back as a ghost, and that’s why he disappears and Qui-Gon doesn’t. The fact that he’s a walking, talking ghost is of course revealed in Empire Strikes Back- he’s a ghost. This way, the audience who is watching these in order is also wondering what Obi-Wan means by “I will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.”
If I decided to go with this approach, then it would make sense for Qui-Gon to chime in throughout Ep. II and Ep. III at key moments, just as Obi-Wan did in SW. I know it isn’t a great solution, but what can you do under these circumstances? A total lack of an explanation of how Jedi walk and talk after death. My other thought was to actually make Qui-Gon disappear in Episode I. But then, I couldn’t use the burning scene, which is a must. I know this isn’t an Episode III edit thread, but this applies to Episode II and in fact the whole trilogy because I might be having to find things for Qui-Gon to say to Anakin/Obi-Wan in this one. I would love to hear comments and solutions to this problem. Because frankly, I’m confused even in the official scenario:
Qui-Gon doesn’t disappear.
The other Jedi that die don’t disappear.
Obi-Wan disappears.
Yoda disappears.
Vader doesn’t disappear.
If Qui-Gon figured out the key to all this, then why was his body left behind? Also, Vader doesn’t disappear, yet HE shows up as a ghost at the end. (BTW, Sebastian Shaw is Anakin in ROTJ). Why? And incidentally, why doesn’t Qui-Gon say anything after death in any of the 6 movies, to anyone? Or mentioned by Yoda? (beyond the fact that Qui-Gon wasn’t conceptualized back then.
Maybe someone could help me sort this mess out.
And at this point, I would like to have a discussion about the lack of the Yoda/Qui-Gon scene on the DVD for inclusion in Episode III. This irks me because now, it looks as though there will be no explanation of how to become a force ghost. Maybe a simpler solution is called for…
Maybe, all Jedi can talk to other force-trained people after their deaths. But perhaps Obi-Wan is the first one to figure out how to actually come back as a ghost, and that’s why he disappears and Qui-Gon doesn’t. The fact that he’s a walking, talking ghost is of course revealed in Empire Strikes Back- he’s a ghost. This way, the audience who is watching these in order is also wondering what Obi-Wan means by “I will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.”
If I decided to go with this approach, then it would make sense for Qui-Gon to chime in throughout Ep. II and Ep. III at key moments, just as Obi-Wan did in SW. I know it isn’t a great solution, but what can you do under these circumstances? A total lack of an explanation of how Jedi walk and talk after death. My other thought was to actually make Qui-Gon disappear in Episode I. But then, I couldn’t use the burning scene, which is a must. I know this isn’t an Episode III edit thread, but this applies to Episode II and in fact the whole trilogy because I might be having to find things for Qui-Gon to say to Anakin/Obi-Wan in this one. I would love to hear comments and solutions to this problem. Because frankly, I’m confused even in the official scenario:
Qui-Gon doesn’t disappear.
The other Jedi that die don’t disappear.
Obi-Wan disappears.
Yoda disappears.
Vader doesn’t disappear.
If Qui-Gon figured out the key to all this, then why was his body left behind? Also, Vader doesn’t disappear, yet HE shows up as a ghost at the end. (BTW, Sebastian Shaw is Anakin in ROTJ). Why? And incidentally, why doesn’t Qui-Gon say anything after death in any of the 6 movies, to anyone? Or mentioned by Yoda? (beyond the fact that Qui-Gon wasn’t conceptualized back then.
Maybe someone could help me sort this mess out.
This should make for good discussion; since learning about the DVD situation, I've put a lot of thought into it. Qui-Gon is my favorite (or one of my favorite) characters in Star Wars, and Liam Neeson is my favorite actor. That said, I am a bit biased.
As for the official situation, I am very dissapointed that Liam Neeson refused to complete his scene in RotS. Even more so that this apparent animosity between Neeson and Lucas was swept under the rug so to speak, as for AotC it was said nothing new was needed from Neeson, but RotS would be more complicated. Then we get both of them dropping hints that Qui-Gon would be back, offical reports that he'd be in the movie, and an actual scene. But it seems Neeson was never going to return after having a bad experience with TPM. Now you can't really blame him for not liking Episode 1, but being a professional I'd hoped he would at least come back for his five minute scene in Episode 3. All that "real world" stuff aside, I still think Qui-Gon can become an essential part of the saga, thus helping tie the prequels together into a true trilogy. Being such a favorite of mine, I was very happy with to hear he would be the key to the unanswered question of Force Spirits. The hint in AotC could have been handled better (NO!), but RotS looked like it would be a great scene. But alas, it was not to be, and all we get is a name drop explanation to Obi-Wan. The way I see it there are 2 (well 3) ways to address the problem:
1) Leave Qui-Gon's role in the saga as is. He dies in TPM, but retains a mystical connection to Yoda from the netherworld, and teaches him and Obi-Wan the secret of immortality.
2) Expand Qui-Gon's role in the saga. I have many an idea on how to do this, very much along the lines of what you were suggesting TM. This can get very extensive, or only a few extra bits here and there. Restoring the official RotS scene is a must any way you cut it though. More on this later.
3) Reduce Qui-Gon's role in the saga. As much as I may disagree with this option, it frustrates me how much it make sense. It hadn't occured to me either until MagnoliaFan was laying out his ways to deal with the Qui-Gon situation, and one of them was to just totally cut him from 2 and 3. Edit out his 3 words in AotC, and cut the last scene before Yoda stops Obi-Wan to talk to him about it. Problem "solved"? Maybe. Everything is left a mystery, and we never heard from or about Qui-Gon after his death.
In your break-down of the offical scenario, there is no doubt Lucas left himself some plotholes. What else is new?
I've read that in early screening of TPM, Qui-Gon's body did indeed dissapear in the fire. This would be something to consider, but then what about everyone watching? Surely now that it's been established Jedi DON'T dissapear, there would be some sort of reaction if Jinn did. Anakin SHOULD have dissapeared, it even says he did in the Star Wars Databank, but Lucas' offical explanation (at least in The Annotated Screenplays) is that Obi-Wan and Yoda caught him on the other side. Of course he also said the "real" reason was that we wanted all the heroes of the PT to be together again, which is why I'm all for adding Qui-Gon (and maybe even Padme) to RotJ. But that discussion is for another time. But Anakin dissapearing is definitely something I would change; he's the Chosen One, that's explanation enough.And while I do indeed support expanding Qui-Gon's role, it would be in a different way that Obi-Wan's life after death, as MTHaslett already pointed out. The problem with what I think you were getting at, TM, was that there can be no conversaions between Qui-Gon and the characters. This puts him in a very similar position as Obi-Wan in ANH after his death. He communicates with Luke in extreme moments, but they aren't chatting it up and we don't have Luke questioning how he's talking to him. In fact, Luke seems to not believe it himself at first. Here are some places I think dialogue from Qui-Gon would be approriate and meaningful:
-At some point during the space battle, when Anakin fires the torpedoes into the reactor for example, have Qui-Gon in his head: "Concentrate on the moment. Feel, don't think. Use your instincts." Qui-Gon is straddling life and death here, so this could be interpreted as either a rememberance (he told Anakin this before the pod race), Force user-to-Force user communication (Luke and Vader at the end of ESB), or advice from the netherworld (Obi-Wan in ANH).
-When Obi-Wan is hanging in the pit, have Qui-Gon is his head: "Always be mindful of your surroundings." Then he remembers Jinn's lightsaber is still there and leaps up to kill Maul. That could be interpreted as the latter two options from above.
-I thought about having Qui-Gon die after "Promise me you will train the boy," (assumming you would keep that line), then have "He will bring balance. Train him," echo in the long shot, in Obi-Wan's head I assume. But that might be a little weird.
-I mentioned this before, but perhaps have some of Qui-Gon's tone poem in Anakin's head at the funeral. "It will be a hard life. One without reward, without remorse, without regret." This would tie-in with the dream in your Episode 2, but again it might be a bit out of place.
-Qui-Gon dissapearing in the fire? Again, logically there would be some kind of reaction/response, so I'd say leave this as-is.
-Qui-Gon starts off the dream in SotDS.
-You know thinking about it, maybe we could weave a sub-plot here of Qui-Gon being responsible for Anakin's nightmares, trying to warn him about the future. He always starts off Anakin's dreams, and in RotS they could be continual visions with not only Padme, but maybe a glimpse of Vader and his future evil? Just a thought; not sure if/how that would work.
-Some kind of dialogue alteration after the Tusken massacare. Replacing the "NO!" first and foremost. Getting two different "Anakin"s would be nice too, making it seem less like a cut and paste job. Any additional stuff you can think of.
-So Qui-Gon in Anakin's Episode 3 visions is a possibility.
-A prefect line that could go several places (from Batman Begins): "Your anger gives you great power but [if you let it] it will destroy you." The place I have in mind of it is when Anakin looks into the suns on Mustafar, before he sheds a tear.
-Reconstructing the Yoda scene in some way. What I think everyone is forgetting is that they still need the Yoda part, which will never be released. And since it all has to be pieced together from different sources anyway, alter and expand it to not only explain the secret of immortality, but Qui-Gon expresses some responsibility for what happened in regards to Anakin.
-After Obi-Wan says "Qui-Gon!", maybe a line or two from Jinn would be appropriate. No "Teach you how to commune with him, I will," rather something from Qui-Gon along the lines of, "Yes Obi-Wan. I will guide you..."
-Considering this last scene, Obi-Wan should not hear from Qui-Gon after he has officially died. This leaves my first two suggestions possible, and reserves surprise for Obi-Wan in RotS. That works very well considering there's not many quiet moments for him to hear Qui-Gon in the first place.
Wow, that was a lot. A whole lot. But as you can see, I've put a lot of thought into this and I'm glad you brought it up, giving me an outlet to lay it all out. I await your input.