TLJ freed this new story and allowed it to become it’s own (much like Kylo in the film), it revealed that there was no set place for these characters to fit in (much like Rey in the film), no set story ‘destined’ to play out. It opened the door for the final chapter to be something new, different and original. TRoS closed that door shut, shoving everything back into the original mold: Rey goes on to be trained as a Jedi, there is some big revelation about her backstory, Kylo turns to the light, and together they defeat
SnokePalpatine, which marks the end of the First and Final Order, and the return of the Jedi and the New New Republic. The Empire is defeated by taking down the ‘big bad’ on the throne again.I feel like you’re implying Kylo Ren was set up to be irredeemable, except we literally end with him broken, kneeling on the floor in the base.
My point was TLJ left things open ended, you only see that as set up for Ben being redeemed because that’s what happened in the end, but it could’ve gone any other way. Just think of this interaction between Luke and Leia:
“I came to face him, Leia. And I can’t save him.”
“I held out hope for so long, but I know my son is gone.”
“No one’s ever really gone.”On one hand, this clearly reads as Kylo being past the point of redemption, as even Leia has given up on him, on the other, Luke only says he can’t save him, and comforts Leia by telling her no one’s ever really gone, though that leads into Han, so it could be read in a multitude of ways, that’s what made TLJ great.
If Kylo was past the point of redemption, then Luke wouldn’t have told Leia, “No one’s ever really gone.”
I wouldn’t be opposed to Kylo chosing to turn after losing everything and finally seeing the error of his choices, as Sherlock suggested, but the point of TLJ was that Kylo chose not to turn good even after the ‘big bad’ in the throne was dead, instead he chose to become the Ruler of the First Order, he chose to become the ‘big bad’ and sit on the throne himself. Things could go in any direction after this.
No. That reinforced Kylo’s desire to be evil, but even then he’s left broken. This is just like in TFA, he kills Han to clear away these goody-goody feelings but it doesn’t work, it makes him even more regretful. Just because he decided to rule the First Order doesn’t mean his goody-goody feelings are gone - in fact, TLJ showed him being conflicted at the end.
Leaving him unredeemed undermines the point of his arc.
Again, you only see it like this because that’s how it played out in the end, letting go of her parents and dealing with feelings worthlessness were key parts of her character arc, but so was finding her place in this story and wanting to be someone important.
Most importantly, she’s the protagonist, she works as a surrogate for the audience. And as such, in a metanarrative sense, she needed to let go of her parents because we needed to let go of her parents, she wanted to find her place in this story because we wanted to find her place in this story, we wanted her to be someone important, we wanted some big revelation, and so did she. Her parents being no one wasn’t just the hardest answer for Rey, it was the hardest answer for the audience. An audience who spent years specutaling where she came from, who she would be related to, where she would fit in. Like Kylo says, the fact that her parents were no one meant she had no [set] place in this story. She had no connection to anyone, she was free to choose whomever she wanted to be. Making her the grandaughter of Palpatine undoes this, now she is shoved back into the mold, the hero is the offspring of the villain, that was the easy and obvious answer, and what we’ve all seen before.
No.
People only speculated as to who she’s related to because they hoped it would explain her “powers” and wanted a payoff for what they thought was a set-up for “her parents being important”. TFA and the entire saga already explained her abilities, and TFA never set up her parents being important - in fact, Maz literally says they aren’t important.
Literal quote from Rey in TLJ: "The galaxy may need a legend. I need someone to show me my place in all of this." I really don’t see anything in the first two movies that implies she hates herself. She just seems overly dependent on people. She stays on Jakku because she wants her family to return, not because she thinks she’s unworthy of their love. She runs from Luke’s lightsaber because she doesn’t want that responsibility. She thinks Luke is the only hope for the galaxy; then, when he refuses, she says “[Ben] is our last hope.” She goes to Kylo because she thinks he’ll help them. (“This could be how we win.”) And honestly, what’s she done so far for herself? Known how to fly a ship? Anyone can do that. She was captured by the First Order. Fought off Kylo out of desperation, not by choice. Messed up big time by turning herself in to Snoke. And then she moved some rocks. Mary Sue, baby.
Amazing. Every word of what you’ve just said was wrong.
This is one of the biggest misconceptions I’ve seen regarding this core belief of self-worthlessness.
Self-confidence is not the same as self-worth. Rey has a lot of self-confidence; she not only believes she is a great fighter and pilot but is also confident in her abilities. She acknowledges that she can achieve things if she were to try hard enough, and believes she is capable of achieving things such as becoming a Jedi — this is because Rey has self-confidence.
But since Rey suffers from a core belief of self-worthlessness, she doesn’t feel worthy or deserving of doing this or that herself. The difference between low self-confidence and low self-worth is the difference between believing that you are able to be or do something and believing you are deserving or worthy of being or doing something yourself.
I never said Rey thinks she’s unworthy of others’ love, I said that she hates herself.
Rey wants to learn “her place” as a way of justifying as to why her parents left her. The point of TLJ is that she refuses to accept that her parents threw her away like garbage - she literally lashes out at Kylo, denying his taunt that “[her] parents threw [her] away like garbage.” She waited all those years on Jakku, having been lying to herself that there had to be some good reason as to why her parents left her, that she is of some importance, at least to them, showing that they truly loved her and cared for her, that she is worth something. It is for this reason she convinces BB-8 in TFA that her family would be back for her… someday.
However… Rey wants to find out what her “place” exactly is. For the past decade and a half of her life, she had been lying to herself that she would realize what her importance was upon finding out who her parents were, and that if she does find out what her importance was then she would feel loved, since in this hypothetical scenario her parents did abandon her for an important reason, showing how much they care for her.
The “place in all this,” itself, never really mattered to Rey. She was only going to use it as a way to justify her parents abandoning her… so she would belong to them, feeling loved. The reason she says to Luke, “I need someone to show me my place in all this,” is, well… you see, she wants to find her importance merely to use it as a way of justifying her parents abandoning her, feeding the lie that they truly cared about her and believed that she was worth something so that lie would never die off, so, for the rest of her life, she would feel loved — henceforth pushing away her feelings of self-worthlessness.
Below is evidence in TFA, TLJ & TRoS that Rey suffers from a core belief of self-worthlessness. These are common symptoms for those who suffer from this core belief. Not all of the following have to be checked off like a box; for example, some people diagnosed with a certain pandemic-causing virus only suffer from specific symptoms whereas some have no symptoms whatsoever.
Chronic psychological and emotional pain
During their initial encounter on Pasaana in TRoS, Kylo Ren describes Rey as having “such pain in [her].”
Feeling unworthy to be one’s ideal self
In TFA, Rey clearly shows that her ideal self is not a scavenger living amongst the sands of Jakku… but to be a Hero™; we see her wear a Rebel X-Wing helmet, we see her Rebel doll she had played with as a child, acting out the legendary stories she has heard about, and, most importantly, she looks up to the legendary heroes of the Jedi — namely, Luke Skywalker. However, Rey holds a definite feeling of unworthiness to be her ideal self. It is made clear, within her introduction alone, she dislikes being a scavenger, we are shown how she looks at the old woman cleaning her scraps, just as Rey is, with sadness and a hint of worry and fear.
We know Rey wants to be more than what she is, yet she does not… she wants to be something, her ideal self is a Jedi, a Hero™… but despite this, Rey runs away from the call to action, when the Skywalker lightsaber calls out to her; then, she tries to displace this role to other people and, once she has finally been forced to take the mantle of being a Jedi during the events of TLJ, she states her feelings of unworthiness of it (“I will earn your brother’s saber…”).
It isn’t until Rey stands against Palpatine and is motivated by the Jedi of the past when she destroys her core belief that she is worthless and, with it, no longer feels unworthy of becoming and being her ideal self, the thing that she wants to (and the galaxy needs her to) be, all the Jedi — hence Rey declaring, "I… am all the Jedi,” pulling the Skywalker saber (the symbol of not only a Jedi, but also her ideal self) to her and destroying Sidious. Rey declaring herself “all the Jedi” is demonstrating her defeat over her core belief that she is worthless — as she finally feels worthy and deserving of being her ideal self, “all the Jedi.”
Misplaced and inappropriate outbursts of anger
Rey consistently shows excessive and inappropriate aggression and anger throughout all three movies; one example is when she struck a defenceless and unarmed Luke Skywalker on the back of his head, another is when she stabbed an unarmed and defenseless Kylo Ren.
Psychological denial and self-repression
Rey willingly spends nearly a decade and a half as a scavenger, despite acknowledging (“I see your eyes. You already know the truth…” — Maz), deep down, that her family is never coming back. She also has been denying the truth that her parents threw her away like garbage, all the way until her confrontation with Kylo in TLJ.
Emotional immaturity, emotional displacement and misplaced, internalized anger
Is extremely emotionally fragile, breaking down into tears when confronted with any criticism or comments of her worth (“You’re nothing…” — Kylo Ren); such emotional fragility shows clear low self-esteem… a sign of this core belief that she is worthless.
Validation/approval seeking
Searches for approval, validation and affection from others, including BB-8, Han, Luke and Leia, possibly to make up for her own lack of self-value.
Attachment disorder
Forms attachments incredibly quickly, as an act of desperation and necessity.
Perceived inadequacy and feelings of being alone
Consistently mentions feeling alone, lost, confused or scared (Luke asks, “What are you most afraid of?”, she responds, “Myself…”; she also describes having never felt so alone to Kylo Ren).
General feelings of worthlessness, showing signs of feeling like she is not worthy of being or doing something great
She believes she isn’t worthy of wielding the Skywalker saber, then in TLJ, tries to get Luke and then Ben to be the Hero™ to help the Resistance gain the upper hand, never believing she is worthy of being said Hero™ — it is only at the last minute when she has no other option but to take the mantle.
She also has general feelings of emptiness and inferiority (shown in the films through Rey’s emotional responses and general emotional state). And the very fact that Rey relies on others for validation alone implies she has no self-love nor -value.
All of these are examples of Rey suffering from an irrational, toxic core belief of self-worthlessness. Having one or two of these “symptoms” would not be enough, but the fact that she shows pretty much most of the signs someone with the same background and core belief would have… supports this analysis, 100%.