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Star Trek: The Original Series preservation (a WIP)

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 (Edited)

I did not see this in the thread and I apologize if it appears elsewhere.

I’ve not seen a preservation effort for the original Star Trek tv series.
So, Trek has been released on DVD and blu-ray. However, it’s been changed each time.
The DVD added a 5.1 soundtrack which included new sound effects like the rumble of the ship. There are also some other sound effects and music cues which were changed. A list (not created by me, but I compiled them) appears at the bottom.

The blu-ray release of the series contains a mono soundtrack, but I think few (if any) of these are original.
There is also some debate about early episodes and which had the “electric violin” music and which had the standard opening theme. It seems to have been tinkered with over the years in an effort at standardization.

There were early vhs releases which I’m told have original soundtracks or at least much closer to them. Also, the laserdiscs should be the same as the vhs releases.

Thanks.
Live long and prosper.

David

 

VHS: the first season opening theme was standardized so the electric violin theme was only heard in “Where No Man Has Gone Before.”

Gene Roddenberry’s up front “created by” credit for The Man Trap and Charlie X were moved to the end of the episodes (these may have been “first rerun” prints).

The sound mix was fiddled with here and there but for the most part, it was pretty faithfully reproduced to my knowledge (City on the Edge of Forever had very objectionable music replacement when they couldn’t secure the home video rights to “Good Night Sweetheart”). The Paramount Logo at the end of the 1968 episodes of the second season was replaced by the third season logo (exception being The Omega Glory, which retained it on the Columbia House VHS print only).

Depending on whether you got the Colombia House releases of the Paramount HV single episode tapes, some scenes were missing in a small # of episodes (Let That Be Your Last Battlefield, Requiem for Methuselah, All Our Yesterdays)

 

DVD: the sound mix was brutalized, adding the exterior engine rumble (which was phased out midway through the first season) to the entire series.

The Menagerie part 2 had some music cues replaced for whatever reason by rerecordings and cues from The Doomsday Machine (you can still hear this on the stereo track on the blu-rays).

Balance of Terror now has a photon torpedo sound effect over the shots of the “proximity blast” phasers, where they were originally silent.

The electric violin theme was restored to the opening credits of the first season, but on far too many episodes (including Balance of Terror and The Corbomite Maneuver which always had the cello theme). The end credits of the electric violin themed episodes still retain the cello version from their 80’s revisions.

 

Bluray:
The sound mix was screwed with again. The “original broadcast mono track” still is wrong, with the engine rumble prevalent and sometimes VERY LOUD in a few first season episodes, drowning out the captains log entries. The only accurate post first season episode appears to be Amok Time.
New sound effects overlay some scenes (Errand of Mercy and The Paradise Syndrome).
The new CGI opening theme is seen in one episode of the first season no matter which version you choose.

 

A Doomsday Machine cue replaces a Friday’s Child cue in The Deadly Years as Spock enters the turbolift, being told to conduct the hearing on Kirk.

Added phaser/photon sounds as the Romulans fire at the Enterprise, same episode.

Doomsday Machine and re-recorded Corbomite and Mudd’s Women music replace three opening music cues in The Menagerie, Part II. The opening teaser, (Corbomite re-recording), Act 1, (Doomsday Machine, original) and Act 2, (Mudd’s Women re-recording).

An added ‘sting’ from the Rigel Fortress music is laid onto the soundtrack as Pike first appears in the illusion. This wasn’t present on the original broadcast of The Menagerie.

The condensed Max’s Factor music as Vina is restored to beauty, has been re-edited to create a smoother transition, for the DVDs and beyond, of The Menagerie, Part II.

After the Memory Alpha technician dies, a freeze-frame replaces the original shot where it was evident the actress was still breathing in the Lights of Zetar.

The closing credits have two differing sets of background pictures for the Lights of Zetar.

Added sound effect as the satellites enter orbit in Operation: Annihilate.

Door effect added to obelisk lightening hitting Kirk

Friday’s Child dialogue improvement

Mirror, Mirror added sound to mirror transition

There were some changes made to the sound mix for these as well. The sound effect of the phaser rifle hitting the ground after Mitchell flings it from Kirk’s grasp in WNMHGB is all but inaudible.

The finale music in “The Man Trap” as the Salt Vampire dies is much lower than it used to be.

The Blu-ray (and newer DVD) versions of Tribbles (accidentally) has one of Spock’s lines muted. “He’ll do it.”

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 (Edited)

Isn’t there also some oddity with “The Cage” where it has been edited shorter with each subsequent re-release?

Also, if you really want to be thorough, my understanding is that the complete series blu-ray has the worst copies of the episodes of any release, so any episode which is included on “The Roddenberry Vault” or other non-complete compilations would be worth checking for superior video encodes.

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For some reason the TOS seasons with dual audio have always been insanely priced.

I’ve only seen them go up in price with time when you would assume the opposite being obsolete media and all.

The fact you could spend thousands on some lousy laserdiscs is kind of crazy. I’ve spent that but over a period of some twenty years and filling 3 closets full of laserdiscs. Not for 3 seasons of one show.

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Similar things have happened with 80’s horror movies. Japanese discs command even more money for some reason. But nothing tops the insane prices for titles that came out at the very end.

The Season One TOS set has one thing never released on video elsewhere, the first all color broadcast of The Cage that was hosted by Patrick Stewart in 1988.

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Where were you in '77?

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My project is underway. I have secured VHS copies of the 79 episodes of the original series.
I have obtained the CBS Home Video set which I believe was issued through Columbia House.

I have a capture card and software and am able to preserve the episodes to a digital file. Because the source is vhs, I am not making huge files. The picture quality is never going to match blu-ray or even dvd. I’m more interested in watching with the (mostly) original audio. The episodes also end with the Desilu logos.
My blu-ray player is able to play it and actually upscale. I’m still watching a vhs capture, but it’s at least watchable.

Of course, as a previous reply mentions, laserdisc would be the preferable best source. I’d love to do that some day. If I ever obtain those, I’d likely do a larger capture to preserve the audio and better picture quality.

Other items on my “wish list”:

The ORIGINAL vhs issues.

There was a set of 5 vhs tapes called Television classics collection from 1980.
1). Vol 1 The Menagerie, part 1 / The Menagerie, part 2
2). Vol 2 Amok Time / Journey to Babel
3). Vol 3 Mirror, Mirror / The Tholian Web
4). Vol 4 The Trouble with Tribbles / Let That Be Your Last Battlefield
5). Vol 5 Balance of Terror / The City on the Edge of Forever

Particularly interested in volume 5 as the tape of City on the Edge of Forever has a music substitution. This was later corrected on the DVDs and blu-ray. Not sure if that volume 5 had the original song “Goodnight, Sweetheart” or not.

6). There was also a one-off Paramount Gateway VHS issue of the episode “Space Seed” which came out at the time of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.

7). Also, it’s disputed this even exists, but I believe it does, a vhs issue of “The Cage” by Columbia House in the silver cardboard packaging, similar to the others, but with Pike and crew as artwork rather than Kirk and crew. I am certain, if it exists, it is only the black and white print.

As another reply mentions, I am no expert, but I understand “The Cage” has also been tinkered with. It was cut up and used to produce the two episodes called “The Menagerie” and somehow in that process some of the audio was re-done or doesn’t match the original. Sources online indicate the voice of the Talosian Keeper was messed with and the colorized version found on dvd doesn’t match. I read someplace on blu-ray the voice has been tinkered with even further, modulating it in an attempt so that the voice matches.

If anyone has access to these items on my wish list, please reach out to me. I’d LOVE to see them and preserve them. Will treat them as bars of latinum. I’d happily pay for postage and return them undamaged.

Somewhere at my parents house was (is?) a vhs tape with the Star Trek: From One Generation to the Next special hosted by Patrick Stewart where the full color version of “The Cage” was aired for the first time. If I come across that tape, you bet I’m going to preserve it too (I have seen it available online, it would just be cool to have my local station ID and commercials).

Live long and prosper.

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If i’m not mistaken before Columbia house you could only rent the VHS tapes of Star Trek. My Science teacher bought the rental tapes, in a less than legal way. A lifetime rental.

We watched the rental tape of the Devil in the Dark in class. The shows were aired in syndication in reruns for years by this time, where i saw every single episode even the reruns of the animated series.

The only Columbia tape i bought and still have is Encounter at Farpoint with the collector’s pin.

Would be awesome to get Star Trek from one generation to the next without burned in subtitles, but i’d take either. I don’t have the Japanese Laserdisc i wish i did.

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Quick update - I’m getting some captures I’m really pleased with.
I upgraded my VCR to a nicer model.
I also just got a Panasonic DVD recorder which can be used as a pass thru time base corrector.
It all works as planned, I should be able to get even nicer captures.

The episode “The Omega Glory” has the original Paramount logo after the Desilu studios logo at the end.

Also confirmed - episode “Where No Man Has Gone Before,” Kirk is carrying a large phaser rifle. His old friend Gary Mitchell uses his ESP super powers to fling the rifle out of Kirk’s hands. On the dvd and blu-ray, you hear a large crash noise offscreen. On the vhs, there was no sound effect.

Would like to find a replacement CBS Home Video / Columbia House video of Assignment: Earth / Day of the Dove / That Which Survives. It’s the only one with 3 episodes on it. My vhs has a bad spot at the beginning.

Also still would like to get hold of the others mentioned in my previous post (above).
Cheers!

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Is the plan to ultimately create audio files which sync to the bluray picture?

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 (Edited)

I’ve traveled down this research path for a little while now and as far as I can tell it essentially boils down to this:

The original video masters existed in a variety of masters tweaked and untweaked starting with the initial VHS and LD releases here in the US from 16mm sources. In Japan they got the big Log boxsets that added PCM mono but appear to be ports of the same USA LD masters otherwise and they all have apparently Season 3 opening credits. Some claim the Japanese LDs have spiffed up transfers and other say the opposite. In my experience most Japanese LDs do port US picture masters.

For the first DVDs of the two episodes per disc they went back to the existing masters and brought them into the digital realm-and also upmixed the original mono to 5.1. They also have 2.0 tracks but sadly these are not mono but Dolby surround versions of the 5.1 upmix. I thought I would have to track these down for a mostly untouched TOS but apparently the main plastic shell 2004 DVD set reused these disc masters with better bitrate and encoding-representing the final release of the 16mm sourced video editions that closely resembled the original broadcast appearance-albeit without the original mono.

When the remastered versions arrived on DVD and then HDDVD they lacked original audio and effects but were the first time we saw what the new scans and cleanups looked like. Finally the BDs arrived and added the original effects plus lossy mono but more clearly showed these were indeed 2006 era transfers riddled with DNR. That said they look very good and more like film-but they do look different to the earlier appearance and how the broadcast would have looked. The audio remix appears to have been done again with new effects and nowt like the original 5.1 on first dvds which merely spread around the mono.

The monos seem for the most part intact but you do notice some new effects here and there and some episodes have the new theme rerecording downmixed in mono for some reason. It is the first time since the final VHS run any form of mono is on a TOS release but infuriating they couldn’t just give us proper lossless mono and no DNR to make a definitive TOS BD release.
They really need to do it again and finally do it right.

I’ve often thought about getting the Japanese LD boxes but they are very expensive and I don’t know if the mono quality is worthwhile enough to justify the purchase. One could get the entire run on VHS on the 1994 blue spine ediiton for hifi mono but still the japanese pcm would be best overall. Has anyone been able to make a definitive list of all Blu-ray mono differences?

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 (Edited)

This is “Star Trek” we’re talking about, and this is the Internet. I’m 100% sure there are people out there who have already collected those laserdiscs and digitized those audio files.

For instance, here is a thread from a Star Trek BBS discussing. Granted, the conversation was ten years ago, but there are people in it who are still active on the site.

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/do-tos-laserdiscs-offer-digital-output.134979/

Before you go paying a thousand bucks for some laserdiscs, you should reach out to that guy ssosmcin and see if he is willing to donate his LD audio tracks to a fan preservation project. Or just post a request thread over there and see who responds.

Also note that from what they are saying over there, this still won’t be perfect, because the Japanese discs use the third season opening credits for all the laserdisc releases. So you’ll still need copies of the alternate mixes of the theme song. But that’s still a lot better off.

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Where resolution is concerned i think 2K is the sweet spot they’ve decided on for Star Trek television and 4K for the films. Although only the Kelvin films and Wrath of Khan have 4k masters, and Deep Space Nine And Voyager haven’t been scanned in 2k yet. Enterprise is close enough with 1080P filmout tapes.

I cannot see them going back and doing TOS again in 4K.

Has anyone listened to the analog audio off the US discs yet, analog audio can be quite good.

I’m tempted to get some of the episodes on Laserdisc just to listen to them.

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JadedSkywalker said:

Where resolution is concerned i think 2K is the sweet spot they’ve decided on for Star Trek television and 4K for the films. Although only the Kelvin films and The Wrath of Khan have 4k masters, and Deep Space Nine And Voyager haven’t been scanned in 2k yet. Enterprise is close enough with 1080P filmout tapes.

I cannot see them going back and doing TOS again in 4K.

Has anyone listened to the analog audio off the US discs yet, analog audio can be quite good.

I’m tempted to get some of the episodes on Laserdisc just to listen to them.

The recent 4K and BD releases of the remastered The Motion Picture, The Wrath of Khan, The Search for Spock, and The Voyage Home all appear to be stellar. Future sets along with The Motion Picture - The Director’s Edition remastered in 4K are more than eventual and the latter is currently being worked upon.

The Roddenberry Vault BD release uses AVC instead of VC-1 which was used on the TOS BD Season sets. The former only has episodes culled from Seasons 1 and 2, none from 3. Would have been nice to see further volumes but perhaps Paramount nixed the idea. The aforementioned Roddenberry Vault has far better compression for the episodes included compared to the Season sets. All of the episodes in both the Season Sets on BD and The Roddenberry Vault are the original broadcast versions and not syndicated as many prior releases were. Of course it has the revised/“updated” effects via seamless branching.
The Dolby Digital Mono tracks on both BD releases are unfortunately low bitrate instead of PCM, which is most likely on Laserdisc. The Season Sets on BD are unfortunately presented in broadcast order instead of production order.

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AdmiralWasabi10191 said:

JadedSkywalker said:

Where resolution is concerned i think 2K is the sweet spot they’ve decided on for Star Trek television and 4K for the films. Although only the Kelvin films and The Wrath of Khan have 4k masters, and Deep Space Nine And Voyager haven’t been scanned in 2k yet. Enterprise is close enough with 1080P filmout tapes.

I cannot see them going back and doing TOS again in 4K.

Has anyone listened to the analog audio off the US discs yet, analog audio can be quite good.

I’m tempted to get some of the episodes on Laserdisc just to listen to them.

The recent 4K and BD releases of the remastered The Motion Picture, The Wrath of Khan, The Search for Spock, and The Voyage Home all appear to be stellar. Future sets along with The Motion Picture - The Director’s Edition remastered in 4K are more than eventual and the latter is currently being worked upon.

The Roddenberry Vault BD release uses AVC instead of VC-1 which was used on the TOS BD Season sets. The former only has episodes culled from Seasons 1 and 2, none from 3. Would have been nice to see further volumes but perhaps Paramount nixed the idea. The aforementioned Roddenberry Vault has far better compression for the episodes included compared to the Season sets. All of the episodes in both the Season Sets on BD and The Roddenberry Vault are the original broadcast versions and not syndicated as many prior releases were. Of course it has the revised/“updated” effects via seamless branching.
The Dolby Digital Mono tracks on both BD releases are unfortunately low bitrate instead of PCM, which is most likely on Laserdisc. The Season Sets on BD are unfortunately presented in broadcast order instead of production order.

I wasn’t aware that they were going to remaster films 1, 3-6. The TNG films etc. Or that Strange New Worlds would be shot in 4K and have a 4K DI. Even though there are no plans for an HDR UHD release at this point. So the TV shows are now being produced in 4K or one is. They still have no plans for Discovery or Picard 4K disc releases. Which mostly would be upscaled. Also Tos and TNG are never going to be 4K remastered, and Voyager and Deep Space Nine will remain in sub DVD quality. There is never going to be a 2k remastering. As for the films 1-6 stellar releases. But no original stereo audio. Two steps forward and one back. At least they got rid of the revisionist lowry color timing, most of the DVNR. and the fake sharpening which was applied to the 2009 blu releases. I mean on the theatrical only. The directors is a different story. They redid the color cast and dvnr’ed the crap out of it. Its a Lucasized version. But at least you can get the original which is great.

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captainsolo said:

I’ve traveled down this research path for a little while now and as far as I can tell it essentially boils down to this:

The original video masters existed in a variety of masters tweaked and untweaked starting with the initial VHS and LD releases here in the US from 16mm sources. In Japan they got the big Log boxsets that added PCM mono but appear to be ports of the same USA LD masters otherwise and they all have apparently Season 3 opening credits. Some claim the Japanese LDs have spiffed up transfers and other say the opposite. In my experience most Japanese LDs do port US picture masters.

For the first DVDs of the two episodes per disc they went back to the existing masters and brought them into the digital realm-and also upmixed the original mono to 5.1. They also have 2.0 tracks but sadly these are not mono but Dolby surround versions of the 5.1 upmix. I thought I would have to track these down for a mostly untouched TOS but apparently the main plastic shell 2004 DVD set reused these disc masters with better bitrate and encoding-representing the final release of the 16mm sourced video editions that closely resembled the original broadcast appearance-albeit without the original mono.

When the remastered versions arrived on DVD and then HDDVD they lacked original audio and effects but were the first time we saw what the new scans and cleanups looked like. Finally the BDs arrived and added the original effects plus lossy mono but more clearly showed these were indeed 2006 era transfers riddled with DNR. That said they look very good and more like film-but they do look different to the earlier appearance and how the broadcast would have looked. The audio remix appears to have been done again with new effects and nowt like the original 5.1 on first dvds which merely spread around the mono.

The monos seem for the most part intact but you do notice some new effects here and there and some episodes have the new theme rerecording downmixed in mono for some reason. It is the first time since the final VHS run any form of mono is on a TOS release but infuriating they couldn’t just give us proper lossless mono and no DNR to make a definitive TOS BD release.
They really need to do it again and finally do it right.

I’ve often thought about getting the Japanese LD boxes but they are very expensive and I don’t know if the mono quality is worthwhile enough to justify the purchase. One could get the entire run on VHS on the 1994 blue spine ediiton for hifi mono but still the japanese pcm would be best overall. Has anyone been able to make a definitive list of all Blu-ray mono differences?

I heard somewhat of a rumor that the second half of the first season with their mono tracks were just downmixed remix tracks, but I haven’t heard anything to prove this

Raccoons

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As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

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yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

Raccoons

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SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

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Also, TOS exists entirely on film. TNG exists 99.9% on film. DS9, Voyager, and B5 have a large number of film elements, but a great deal of the FX were CG and only exist as broadcast video tape masters. So you would have to recreate the CG shots from scratch in order to convert them to HD. The film just has to be rescanned, like with TNG. But it is the expense and time of the CG recreation that prevents it from happening. We got lucky with B5 that JMS convinced WB to do high quality conversion of the original master video tapes (making it as high quality as any shot on tape series of the day) that resulted in being able to see how fantastic it looked originally rather than the horrible uprez job done for the DVDs. We can hope that DS9 and Voyager get at least that quality, which is suitable for streaming.

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 (Edited)

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

Raccoons

Author
Time

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

There were 2 DVD releases. Which one? What sound FX were added?

Author
Time
 (Edited)

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

There were 2 DVD releases. Which one? What sound FX were added?

The initial DVDs are where the 5.1 mixes originated despite having the OG visual effects, there were 2.0 tracks included but they were stereo downmixes of the 5.1 track

The BDs are the first home video release since VHS to have any mono mixes, and I heard from a few fans that they still had a few of the newer sound effects from the remixes

Raccoons

Author
Time

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

There were 2 DVD releases. Which one? What sound FX were added?

The initial DVDs are where the 5.1 mixes originated despite having the OG visual effects, there were 2.0 tracks included but they were stereo downmixes of the 5.1 track

The BDs are the first home video release since VHS to have any mono mixes, and I heard from a few fans that they still had a few of the newer sound effects from the remixes

That is not quite accurate. I ripped the 2nd pilot from both DVD sources (already have the BD ripped). The original 1999 DVD release featured a 5.1 mix. Here is what it is. The original mono soundtrack as the center channel. Some sounds filtered to the left and right to create a stereo effect. Some sounds filtered to the surround and LFE channels. But the center channel is the original. The 2004 DVD clamshell set also has a stereo tack that has a stereo effect, likely just a mixdown of the surround as it has both 5.1 and 2.0. The remastered blu-ray set has a two channel mono soundtrack. There is a clear fidelity difference showing that the BR mono track came from a better source, using better equipment, or something else unique to get a crisper recorder. The video for the two DVD releases apppears to be identical there is a slight vertical adjustment, but the video and 5.1 tracks appear to be identical in every way.

Picture wise, the DVDs are an improvement over previous VHS and LD releases in the US. the Japanese LD set was a totaly different transfer using different techniques. Its quality compared to the US LD or DVD release would be comparably inferior to the BR image quality.

So to compare the sound for the original mono, you would need to extract the center channel out of the surround mix and the 2 channel mono from the BR. Also, BR discs have very high quality audio encoding and the audio track is sufficiently better quality that any possible loss is negligible.