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The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (Released) — Page 360

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Nope. This is still the Rey Palpatine version believe it or not. The problem we’ve encountered is that Palpatine clearly wanted to essence transfer into Kylo because he put so much effort into corrupting him and calls for Rey’s death, and then suddenly at the end of the film it’s revealed that he always wanted her to live. Like, what?

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Neerb said:

Uh… two is better than one? I guess?

TestingOutTheTest suggested keeping the “lifeforce of your bond” thing in, which sounds just as handwavy as a Dyad without distracting us with proper nouns. If Palpatine was Snoke, then Snoke giving them a bond could be a long-game setup (in story payoff, not literal planning) for Palpatine to drink that bond up. Would just need to lessen/cut out Palp’s surprise when it happens, along with Kylo saying in the hangar that Palps doesn’t know.

How many times do I have to say this? Snoke and Palpatine aren’t the same individual; yes, Snoke listens to Palpatine, but it isn’t like he is some sort of VR avatar Palpatine controls.

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No argument about that. What I’m saying is that for the purposes of this project I place some value on having things make sense even if one inferred, as I did in the theater in December 2019, that Snoke is his meat puppet.

My stance on revising fan edits.

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

Nope. This is still the Rey Palpatine version believe it or not. The problem we’ve encountered is that Palpatine clearly wanted to essence transfer into Kylo because he put so much effort into corrupting him and calls for Rey’s death, and then suddenly at the end of the film it’s revealed that he always wanted her to live. Like, what?

I agree, I felt that was jarring, but like someone said, this could be because Ben has been redeemed. Afterall, you can tell he’s changing his plans when he made Pryde lead the Final Order on Exegol.

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

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 (Edited)

nl0428 said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Nope. This is still the Rey Palpatine version believe it or not. The problem we’ve encountered is that Palpatine clearly wanted to essence transfer into Kylo because he put so much effort into corrupting him and calls for Rey’s death, and then suddenly at the end of the film it’s revealed that he always wanted her to live. Like, what?

I agree, I felt that was jarring, but like someone said, this could be because Ben has been redeemed. Afterall, you can tell he’s changing his plans when he made Pryde lead the Final Order on Exegol.

Yes, but that would imply it wasn’t always his plan to let her live, which is what him and Finn claim in the movie.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

Neerb said:

Uh… two is better than one? I guess?

TestingOutTheTest suggested keeping the “lifeforce of your bond” thing in, which sounds just as handwavy as a Dyad without distracting us with proper nouns. If Palpatine was Snoke, then Snoke giving them a bond could be a long-game setup (in story payoff, not literal planning) for Palpatine to drink that bond up. Would just need to lessen/cut out Palp’s surprise when it happens, along with Kylo saying in the hangar that Palps doesn’t know.

How many times do I have to say this? Snoke and Palpatine aren’t the same individual; yes, Snoke listens to Palpatine, but it isn’t like he is some sort of VR avatar Palpatine controls.

Regardless of this apparent fact, the text of the film makes this ambiguous. When Palpatine tells Kylo that he has been every voice in his head, and demonstrates this by literally using Snoke’s voice, it makes Snoke’s status as an independent individual unclear to the audience. Sure, maybe Snoke was his own person, but Palpatine also occasionally spoke in Kylo’s head using Snoke’s voice, but that is left up for the audience to interpret, and I guarantee not everyone came out of that film with the same interpretation (which I think this thread demonstrates well enough).

The movie leaves a lot for the audience to figure out, though, and if I have to go find external resources to have that question answered, or have some stranger on the internet lecture me for not understanding it, then I consider that the filmmakers’ failure for not being able to communicate their intention to the audience clearly. Maybe they wanted to leave it ambiguous to maintain a little mystery, but you seem adamant that there are hard answers to all of these questions. But if I had to guess, the filmmakers were honestly not sure what the answer was themselves, and left it ambiguous so someone else could answer it, or let the audience pick whichever interpretation they preferred.

Maybe I’m just not smart enough to understand the nuanced storytelling that is The Rise of Skywalker.

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RogueLeader said:

But if I had to guess, the filmmakers were honestly not sure what the answer was themselves, and left it ambiguous so someone else could answer it, or let the audience pick whichever interpretation they preferred.

JJ Abrams in a nutshell.

EDIT: To make myself clear, I still enjoy a good portion of what this film does. And seeing as how the interpretation that I call for with this movie are mostly the “canon” answers, I don’t really have a problem with this flaw in the movie.

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RogueLeader said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Neerb said:

Uh… two is better than one? I guess?

TestingOutTheTest suggested keeping the “lifeforce of your bond” thing in, which sounds just as handwavy as a Dyad without distracting us with proper nouns. If Palpatine was Snoke, then Snoke giving them a bond could be a long-game setup (in story payoff, not literal planning) for Palpatine to drink that bond up. Would just need to lessen/cut out Palp’s surprise when it happens, along with Kylo saying in the hangar that Palps doesn’t know.

How many times do I have to say this? Snoke and Palpatine aren’t the same individual; yes, Snoke listens to Palpatine, but it isn’t like he is some sort of VR avatar Palpatine controls.

Regardless of this apparent fact, the text of the film makes this ambiguous. When Palpatine tells Kylo that he has been every voice in his head, and demonstrates this by literally using Snoke’s voice, it makes Snoke’s status as an independent individual unclear to the audience. Sure, maybe Snoke was his own person, but Palpatine also occasionally spoke in Kylo’s head using Snoke’s voice, but that is left up for the audience to interpret, and I guarantee not everyone came out of that film with the same interpretation (which I think this thread demonstrates well enough).

The movie leaves a lot for the audience to figure out, though, and if I have to go find external resources to have that question answered, or have some stranger on the internet lecture me for not understanding it, then I consider that the filmmakers’ failure for not being able to communicate their intention to the audience clearly. Maybe they wanted to leave it ambiguous to maintain a little mystery, but you seem adamant that there are hard answers to all of these questions. But if I had to guess, the filmmakers were honestly not sure what the answer was themselves, and left it ambiguous so someone else could answer it, or let the audience pick whichever interpretation they preferred.

Maybe I’m just not smart enough to understand the nuanced storytelling that is The Rise of Skywalker.

Preach!

Your last paragraph made me think … even the writers were unsure. Lol

“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”

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RogueLeader said:

Maybe I’m just not smart enough to understand the nuanced storytelling that is The Rise of Skywalker.

If the modern prequel fanbase is any indicator, 15 years from now people will be saying this unironically.

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What if Palpatine’s line to Ben, “Kill the girl” was just removed?

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

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It wouldn’t solve as many things as elegantly, as to me it still begs the question “why was Palpatines literal or figurative puppet so keen on killing her last time?”

My stance on revising fan edits.

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Hal 9000 said:

It wouldn’t solve as many things as elegantly, as to me it still begs the question “why was Palpatines literal or figurative puppet so keen on killing her last time?”

Because … the puppet … erm … had a bad connection? Low bars … bad WiFi?

“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”

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Hal 9000 said:

It wouldn’t solve as many things as elegantly, as to me it still begs the question “why was Palpatines literal or figurative puppet so keen on killing her last time?”

Possibly because Rey has changed a lot in the year between VIII and IX.

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

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Hal 9000 said:

It wouldn’t solve as many things as elegantly, as to me it still begs the question “why was Palpatines literal or figurative puppet so keen on killing her last time?”

Interestingly enough, Snoke’s reason for wanting Rey to die (“you have the spirit of a true Jedi”) would also be the reason Palpatine would want her dead. Essence transfer doesn’t work if the kill comes from somebody without hatred or vengeance (i.e. a Jedi).

These two simple line removals just make everything click so much better imo. The alternative is a lengthy procedure that removes large portions of this film to have things make sense.

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nl0428 said:

Hal 9000 said:

It wouldn’t solve as many things as elegantly, as to me it still begs the question “why was Palpatines literal or figurative puppet so keen on killing her last time?”

Possibly because Rey has changed a lot in the year between VIII and IX.

We still have Palpatine ordering her death at the start of TROS.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

These two simple line removals just make everything click so much better imo. The alternative is a lengthy procedure that removes large portions of this film to have things make sense.

Agreed.

My stance on revising fan edits.

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It would have been nice if the palpy and pryde scene was longer and could have had palpy day something like “kylo has betrayed me/ no longer part of plan / etc and it’s time for plan b.” Something like that would have been nice or at least connect some dots.

But I agree removing those lines helps.

“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”

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jarbear said:

It would have been nice if the palpy and pryde scene was longer and could have had palpy day something like “kylo has betrayed me/ no longer part of plan / etc and it’s time for plan b.” Something like that would have been nice or at least connect some dots.

But I agree removing those lines helps.

Palpatine already says, “The Princess of Alderaan has disrupted my plans, but her foolish act will be in vain.”

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Yup, all the pieces are there for the interpretation of the film we’re going for. The problem is that the original film, as stated previously, doesn’t do a good job settling on one.

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Was Ochi also tasked with getting Darth Vader’s wayfinder on Mustafar as well? But he died before he could get to either Vader’s or Palpy’s (after pointlessly killing Rey’s parents)? Why exactly did Vader also have a wayfinder triangle?

So I guess Palpatine’s was on Death Star II because he was planning on staying there for the foreseeable future? Or does he just bring the triangle around with him everywhere he goes?

Save the Sebastian Shaw Ghost! Save the dream…!

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I believe Vader got his wayfinder from the Eye of Webbing Bog. It’s not explained why he had it to begin with.

As for Palpatine, you’re probably right that he was planning on staying on the second Death Star for a while.

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The movie doesn’t indicate why Ochi was on Pasaana. We’re only there to track him and he was there to… ???

And I guess Palpatine had the Wayfinder on his shuttle when he arrived on the DSII. If the scene lasted ten seconds longer we’d have seen a red guard carrying it behind him.

My stance on revising fan edits.

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That is also never explained. Your guess is as good as mine.

All Lando says is that he and Luke tracked him “halfway across the galaxy” and then they found his abandoned ship on Pasaana with no clues to his whereabouts.

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Neerb said:

Okay, okay… I’m spitballing here, it might sound crazy… but what if we’re approaching this backwards? What if the most straightforward way to sell Palpatine’s plan is to actually take him at his word at the end, and instead remove all traces of him wanting Rey dead?

Opening on Exogol: Palpatine offers the fleet “if you do as I ask.” Kylo, after a moment considering it, silently lowers his saber in agreement. Palpatine smiles menacingly to end the scene: a deal has been struck, but we the audience don’t know what. We can still guess, however, that it could be Rey-related, because Hal’s edit transitions right into Rey meditating.

Board room meeting now has a new context to it. When an officer asks Kylo what the Emperor wants, Kylo silences him immediately. We the audience don’t know what Kylo and the Emperor’s deal was, so we don’t know that Kylo’s outburst is unreasonable; on the contrary, we’re now more intrigued that Kylo is keeping this so secretive.

When Palpatine chastises Kylo after Pasaana, remove references to killing Rey. Full remaining dialog:
“Perhaps you have betrayed me. Do not make me turn my fleet against you.”
“I know where she’s going. She will never be a Jedi.”
“Make sure of it.”
We now know for certain, though we already suspected, that Kylo’s agreement involves Rey somehow. The threat, however, is still vague.

From here out, Kylo mentions twice aboard his ship on Kijimi that Palpatine tried to kill Rey as a kid, reveals that she’s a Palpatine, and suggests that they should team up instead. We think we get it now: not only is this the big reveal that Rey is a Palpatine, but it’s the big reveal of Kylo’s mission to kill her and finish the job.

After Endor, Palpatine says that Leia has ruined his plans. We assume this is because Kylo couldn’t kill her. But we’re still assuming wrong.

Finally, on Exegol, in a genuine third act twist, we learn the truth from Palpatine himself, unedited: he never wanted her dead, he wanted her here with him. The audience can now infer that bringing Rey to Exogol was Kylo’s true mission all along, and Kylo had lied to Rey about Palpatine trying to kill her as part of his attempt to manipulate her to his own ends, planning to betray Palpatine from the beginning. Even the times it seemed Kylo was genuinely trying to kill Rey, he was spiting the Emperor rather than serving him. And since Kylo must have actually known Palpatine’s true goal all along, as Ben he is now rushing back to Exogol because he knows Rey is playing into Palpatine’s hands.

Thoughts?

I know it seems like we’re not going this route for the “Rey Palpatine” version but could this possibly work for a “Rey Nobody” version?

IDK, I just really love this idea and it sucks that it seems like it won’t be implemented at all. 😕

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I’d recommend pursuing Rey Nobody ideas in the main thread about it, as I’ll end up using whatever is produced there and it’ll just get fragmented and lost in this thread.

My stance on revising fan edits.

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RogueLeader said:

The movie leaves a lot for the audience to figure out, though, and if I have to go find external resources to have that question answered, or have some stranger on the internet lecture me for not understanding it, then I consider that the filmmakers’ failure for not being able to communicate their intention to the audience clearly.

Honestly, this has been my major problem with the film from the jump. As soon as I kept seeing questions this movie raised being answered by things like a reference book or an amusement park ride instead of in the film proper, I knew that this film was a complete failure in my eyes.

I think it’s also indicative of how Disney’s going to start treating films, tv shows, and other media as pieces of content rather than individual things that will stand up on its own. But, that’s a whole other can of worms to open…