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Fantasia - 35mm Project (Help Needed) (a WIP) — Page 5

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The facility that performed the sound capture is more than capable of correcting Reel 3’s right channel problem so I’ll have that arranged as soon as possible. In the meantime, I’m waiting on a collector who may (I emphasize may) have an original IB Tech trailer for the 1956 SuperScope reissue. If/when that one arrives, every trailer from every theatrical release will be sent in for scanning. That includes the 1941 trailer for the RKO-distributed release, the previous owner of which claims is a reduction print sourced directly from the original nitrate negatives.

I’ve also crossed off a huge part of the project bill recently and purchased every necessary component for a new PC build. Assembly isn’t too far along and once it’s put together it’ll serve as the primary system for the project. I suppose it’s only a matter of (finally) sending in the Fantasia prints for UHD/HDR scanning shortly thereafter, and Lord be willing, of course.

Stay tuned; at the very least, I’ll whet a few appetites with the UHD trailers. I do have a 60 second sample of the mag audio with Tech footage from a particular print locked and loaded, but I’m waiting for the print/scan owner’s approval to share the footage sample. I’ll follow up this post with that very video if I’m given the go.

“You missed! How could you miss-- he was THREE FEET in front of you!”
– Mushu

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Not everyone has a 4K setup, so there should also be a 1080p/SDR version as well. As for me, I can only play 4K video on my Xbox One S.

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As promised, a sample.

“You missed! How could you miss-- he was THREE FEET in front of you!”
– Mushu

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That’s because no work has been done on the picture yet. What you’re seeing is an SD, color-corrected sample provided by a private collector for this raw audio demonstration, not the restored scan that’s intended to be used for the final project. (But yes, Technicolor Fantasia does look spectacular.)

“You missed! How could you miss-- he was THREE FEET in front of you!”
– Mushu

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So, about how long do you think it will be until we can just download the whole movie as it first appeared in the 1940 roadshow?

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That’s not what this is, though I wish it were. Until Mr. Taylor’s complete commentary tracks somehow surface, the aim of this project is to reassemble the general release version in much higher quality than is currently available. As of this writing, I’m unable to provide an estimated completion date but will be making updates here as often as I can.

“You missed! How could you miss-- he was THREE FEET in front of you!”
– Mushu

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TonyWDA said:

That’s not what this is, though I wish it were. Until Mr. Taylor’s complete commentary tracks somehow surface, the aim of this project is to reassemble the general release version in much higher quality than is currently available. As of this writing, I’m unable to provide an estimated completion date but will be making updates here as often as I can.

Is this going to have the racist centaur?

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Yes, The Pastoral Symphony will remain uncensored.

“You missed! How could you miss-- he was THREE FEET in front of you!”
– Mushu

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MASTER260 said:

TonyWDA said:

That’s not what this is, though I wish it were. Until Mr. Taylor’s complete commentary tracks somehow surface, the aim of this project is to reassemble the general release version in much higher quality than is currently available. As of this writing, I’m unable to provide an estimated completion date but will be making updates here as often as I can.

Is this going to have the racist centaur?

If he’s going to go through all that effort to do what he’s doing I would certainty hope he is not foolish enough to censor.

That being said, since this project won’t be done anytime soon (not complaining or anything just observing) couldn’t anyone re insert the censored bits back into the CAV laserdisc release on myspleen? This would at least be the most complete version of the movie that exists. Please? Pretty please? Anyone?

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Class316 said:

MASTER260 said:

TonyWDA said:

That’s not what this is, though I wish it were. Until Mr. Taylor’s complete commentary tracks somehow surface, the aim of this project is to reassemble the general release version in much higher quality than is currently available. As of this writing, I’m unable to provide an estimated completion date but will be making updates here as often as I can.

Is this going to have the racist centaur?

If he’s going to go through all that effort to do what he’s doing I would certainty hope he is not foolish enough to censor.

That being said, since this project won’t be done anytime soon (not complaining or anything just observing) couldn’t anyone re insert the censored bits back into the CAV laserdisc release on myspleen? This would at least be the most complete version of the movie that exists. Please? Pretty please? Anyone?

Deleted

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Class316 said:

MASTER260 said:

TonyWDA said:

That’s not what this is, though I wish it were. Until Mr. Taylor’s complete commentary tracks somehow surface, the aim of this project is to reassemble the general release version in much higher quality than is currently available. As of this writing, I’m unable to provide an estimated completion date but will be making updates here as often as I can.

Is this going to have the racist centaur?

If he’s going to go through all that effort to do what he’s doing I would certainty hope he is not foolish enough to censor.

Tony already mentioned above that he won’t censor the black centaurettes out of The Pastoral Symphony. Didn’t you notice that?

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Brodnation: Check your PM maybe we can work something out

WaltWiz1901: Yes I did see it hence my response as a follow up

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Got the 1956 trailer. 35mm IB Tech and in relatively great shape. A little splicey towards the beginning, missing the first 15 seconds as well as the last 20, but certainly nothing that can’t be patched using frames from the IB Tech feature print. As promised, this and all other theatrical reissue trailers should be sent in for scanning very soon. Might be difficult to make speedier progress during the holidays, but rest assured I have not forgotten about this project. I’ll keep updating as frequently and as quickly as I’m able.

“You missed! How could you miss-- he was THREE FEET in front of you!”
– Mushu

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It’s a damn shame Disney hasn’t given this a proper release.
I’ll definitely be keeping an eye on this

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No hurries, Tony, take your time!

One thing’s for certain, no matter what - I’d love to see what you’ve done as soon as this project is completed.

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Hello, I just discovered this post. Fantasia is one of my favourite movies for the intense marrying of two of my passions, animation, and symphonic orchestral music. I always knew Disney butchered their movies a lot for their releases, but I had NO IDEA to the extent it went to. Even from some of their not-so-old movies (the Winnie the Pooh one posted here, for example. I never recalled the Blu ray sounded that clear. I checked it afterwards and mother of god, you can tell all the filters… it’s impressive how much they butchered the whole thing.)

But back to Fantasia… I came over this thread (I hope it’s not too off topic!) because, given that the Blu ray track is absolutely bad and not as good as it should be, I’ve been more fond of the 1982 Irwin Kostal re-recording, which is pretty good and faithful. I’ve tried to find people to sync the CD soundtrack to the Blu ray video, since I am terrible at this kind of thing and have no patience and expertise for it. But I’d love to watch Fantasia with a better sound, even if it’s a re-recording, until this project is finalized. Once I see how bad it is… I just can’t stand it. I have to hear Fantasia better. Could anyone help me out with that?

Of course, I’ve read the entire thread and your work is amazing, easily I can tell too it’s done by pure love and passion to the movie and I love that you’re trying to restore the sound to better form. Who knew how many movie sounds Disney has butchered and have no idea. Somebody should do something about that… I personally thank you for your impressive work, and will subscribe to the thread and keep in mind for when the project is finalized, no matter how long it takes, I feel it’ll be worth the wait. Thank you, once more.

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I’m glad to see someone taking on such a project. I had started one of my own a ways back, but I simply didn’t have the skillset or the resources to do it properly. I don’t think at the time, I realized just how much work this film needed. Anyway, my hat’s off to you.

"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won’t last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you’ll be able to project it on a 20’ by 40’ screen with perfect quality. I think it’s the director’s prerogative, not the studio’s to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas

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Looking forward for this project.Please people. Don’t jinx it (again).

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monks19 said:

Looking forward for this project.Please people. Don’t jinx it (again).

I know, right? Fantasia is cursed to never have a good release.

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Thought this might be a good thread to pose this question, since I’m with so many Fantasia experts:
I went back and took a look at the 1990 release again, pulled the Deems taylor audio, and found that even on the re-recorded parts, the dialogue still does not match. Was the interstitial 1947/1990 Taylor audio a different take? The pauses in between phrases and even certain conjunctions are missing in the original Taylor audio recording vs the restored film segments.

Example:
(1990/1947 original Deems Taylor audio introducing the soundtrack)
“…but when I did [pause], I realized…”

(Burtons recorded dialog introducing the Soundtrack)
“…but when I did, I suddenly realized…”

The restored footage shows that Taylor mouthed “suddenly” as well as the script used as the basis for Burton’s audio indicated this was the correct line of dialogue from the beginning so why is the original Taylor audio so off? Surely an editor didnt go in and remove individual words from dialog to shave off 0.5s

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I discovered this very thing when I first tried cutting the Blu-ray footage around the LaserDisc audio, and the only conclusion I can draw is that for that particular portion of the entr’acte, Disney either used an alternate take for the general release cut, or they had Taylor come back and record a more streamlined version of the “Soundtrack” introduction to slap right over the orchestra b-roll footage. The former seems more plausible, but the funny is that the introduction audio to the Pastoral segment just moments later lines up with the Blu-ray footage perfectly.

A similar sync issue came up during the Bald Mountain/Ave Maria introduction. Not a single… word… synchronized properly. So I had to keep cutting (and in one instance even stretch) words around to achieve a somewhat decent result, and I still wasn’t completely satisfied with it. In addition, when Taylor brings up Ave Maria, he refers to it as “world famous” in the roadshow footage but “immortal” in the general release. That and the aforementioned syncing issues left me to assume that the finale’s interstitial audio used in the general release version was also an alternate take.

“You missed! How could you miss-- he was THREE FEET in front of you!”
– Mushu

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Thanks for the answer Tony. I picked a random Taylor snippet to start with (soundtrack) and found those discrepancies and stopped there, but interesting to know some parts do line up fine or (for Ave Maria) don’t at all.

Really excited for your project. Ever since I started reading about Fantasound 10 years ago and got deeper into the technical aspects of the film I’ve been intrigued by the amount of cuts/recuts/edits/audio changes this movie has been through (in a less similar vein, mystery projects like the SMiLE album from the Beach boys similarly pique my interests).
I’m sure others know this regarding the Sunflower edits, but in the VHS version (including soundtrack) about 3 seconds of audio have been edited out of the Pastoral (right as Baccus is teetering to fall from his chair). That scene is cropped close and panned to hide Sunflower but couldnt manage to hide her completely unrolling the red carpet (so the audio is shifted accordingly, then cut).The DVD/BD versions erase sunflower and keep the entire scene intact (and the 3 seconds of audio added back in)

Is the 1957 3-LP set the closest to Fantasound/original generation mix as we’ll get? Ive been buying various Lps over the years but haven’t noticed much differences across them:

  • the STEREO 3-LP Watercolor release with booklet
  • a single STERO LP releases (with the watercolors from the 3-set used as a 2 sided album cover)
  • a single MONO LP release (same as above)

Obviously the biggest change is the large presence of reverb on the LPs, akin to hearing it in a large performance hall which was removed on the restored 1990 and beyond releases. The 3-LP and single LP sound the same while the mono version (particularly Ave Maria) sounds similar with a special looped ending section only heard in Mono not stereo. Is there a high quality rip anywhere of the 1957 LP? I’ve made my own but I’ve been spending hours removing clicks and pops. Also the whole album is mixed so low that I find myself competing with the turntable rumble on quiet sections

EDIT: Seems someone has already shed a light on this 😃 https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Fantasia-35mm-preservation-opportunity-unfinished-project-WIP/id/16608/page/3#1142402

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With all due resect to the OP, I’d take that post with a grain of salt; I’ve worked extensively with the same vinyl recordings for a very long time, and once you adjust the timing (vinyls always tend to run either infinitesimally slower or faster than the master source depending on what player is used) they lock to the picture perfectly because they are, in fact, not outtakes. On both the 35mm mag tracks and vinyl/reel tapes releases, one particular incidental string noise heard on the left channel in the Toccata segment, as well as panning and discrete channel dropout across all segments, are identical to one another in both sources. Take my word for it, these are not outtakes. The surviving recordings on film and commercial audio releases are one and the same. That is all that has survived. Any actual outtakes would’ve been on the raw, unedited recordings sessions on the original nitrate film sources which, sadly, no longer exist.

The monaural downmix prepared for the wider 1941 RKO reissue was the basis for the subsequent mono pressings on commercial audio and the 1990 VHS/LaserDisc releases. Having personally studied the mixes just as carefully as I have the stereophonic recordings, I noticed identical instrumental prioritization across all releases (which itself can likely be attributed to an entirely new mix that sourced the original stems when they still existed).

Short of having access to a magnetic stereo copy of the 1956, 1963, or 1969 releases, the stereophonic vinyl and reel tape releases are technically the closest you can get to the “original” Fantasound, but not without its own warts. The original stereo tracks had zero reverberations baked into the final mix-- dry as a bone all the way through, and that’s exactly how it sounds on the surviving recordings used in the mag stereo prints. So the reverberations weren’t “removed” in the 1990 reissue-- they were never there in the first place. So, while the dynamic effect of hearing the score play in a concert hall does make the commercial pressings a worthwhile listen (I can’t count how many times I’ve enjoyed them), it’s ultimately an artificial effect, and the release still has the issue of a faint phantom centre channel that needs to be adjusted for proper listening, as well as occasional hard pans that aren’t nearly are strong as they are on the mag tracks.

TL:DR: the stereo and mono reel/vinyl pressings are totally listenable, but the optical mono and, especially, the mag stereo tracks will get you the closest to the original sound elements.

“You missed! How could you miss-- he was THREE FEET in front of you!”
– Mushu

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TonyWDA said:

Short of having access to a magnetic stereo copy of the 1956, 1963, or 1969 releases, the stereophonic vinyl and reel tape releases are technically the closest you can get to the “original” Fantasound, but not without its own warts. The original stereo tracks had zero reverberations baked into the final mix-- dry as a bone all the way through, and that’s exactly how it sounds on the surviving recordings used in the mag stereo prints. So the reverberations weren’t “removed” in the 1990 reissue-- they were never there in the first place. So, while the dynamic effect of hearing the score play in a concert hall does make the commercial pressings a worthwhile listen (I can’t count how many times I’ve enjoyed them), it’s ultimately an artificial effect, and the release still has the issue of a faint phantom centre channel that needs to be adjusted for proper listening, as well as occasional hard pans that aren’t nearly are strong as they are on the mag tracks.

Wow thanks Tony, never realized the reverbs were artificially added! Honestly that might put an end to my hunt for the older releases as I though all this time the restorations pulled the reverbs as part of a blanket NR to the noisy tracks. Have to change my whole perspective on what I thought was the “real” Fantasia sound haha.

EDIT: After Tony mentioned about the mono being a basis for the 1990 release, I did a playback on my VHS and switched to the mono (non hi-fi stereo) track and listened to Ave Maria, and sure enough it’s the same mix as the mono LP I have, complete with special looped ending not in the the stereo mix (both the LP and VHS track) which extended the fade long enough to match the fade out of the video. Amazing! I really need to give this tape more credit than I do.

https://imgur.com/VpfZkRq