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The Clone Wars: Refocused [COMPLETE] + Subtitles for season one! — Page 8

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Darth Muffy said:

EddieDean said:

Hi Darth Mulfy, good to have you with us. If you are sharing that information here to recommend them as potential sources of ideas for this edit, perhaps you could save us some time or direct our attention by giving us an overview of the cuts made by ExpandedUniverses that you think are in line with the goals of the Clone Wars Refocused project? If you are not sharing for that reason, some context would be much appreciated!

Sure but might be worth a quick overview on what was edited yourself to consider things that has aleady done, no point in retreading ideas that may not work was my intentions of bringing it to light here. I’m currently going through hes edits but will keep an eye on this thread and only chime in if I can contribute.

As it was intended for kids I find the clone wars very hard to take in (got the bluray boxset for my little ones awile ago) but in movie forms editing out most fluff its not as bad of a watch personally.

I think you’d be best served by familiarising yourself with the contents of this thread - I think they make my intentions quite clear, and I’ve summarised and refocused my explanations where possible. It would then be my pleasure to answer any specific questions you might then have.

I’d be particularly interested to hear what you think are the best ideas that you’ve seen used in ExpandedUniverses’ edits beyond aggregation, since he doesn’t appear to have available changelogs.

The Clone Wars: Refocused | Andor: Movie Omnibus

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S06E05-07 - Clovis Banking Arc - Excludable - Continuity Cut

This is another tough one. A politics-heavy arc focused on banking, with very little action. The highlight is Anakin’s jealousy of Padme’s relationship with Clovis, which is handled really well, but it’s just not too strong an episode beyond that. It needs extreme tightening, I think, to be worthy of the Quality cut, because Anakin’s development is not one of the primary arcs we’re following this series.

I’d actually quite like to put this before Maul on Mandalore, because this operates as a good reminder of Obi-Wan’s relationship with Satine. Placing it before the fall of Ahsoka might make that more of a double punch. The third episode can be split off from the other two, and it contains the reconciliation, so maybe we choose to draw it out.

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As I near the end of this review, it appears that the Quality Cut - my priority - will feature about 40 episodes (which may be single episodes, or longer ones composed from whole arcs). With eight Maul episodes (when you break them by available time breaks), that would give you a spacing of about four episodes between each Maul episode.

So our pacing might look something like (NOTE THIS WON’T BE EXACT, I’M JUST GETTING A FEEL FOR IT HERE):

  • Prologue (the Tartakovsky Muunilinst/Hypori arc to introduce Ventress)
  • First proper episode (Smudger’s movie with tightened focus, and a cold open of Death Watch finding Maul from the beginning of Eminence)
    • Two other episodes
  • Maul 1: Nightsisters trilogy (in which Maul does not appear)
    • Two other episodes
  • Maul 2: The Return of Maul duology (Brothers and Revenge)
    • Four other episodes
  • Maul 3: Piracy (Revival)
    • Four other episodes
  • Maul 4: Syndicate (Eminence)
    • Four other episodes
  • Maul 5: Taking Mandalore (Shades of Reason)
    • Four other episodes
  • Maul 6: Lords of Mandalore (The Lawless)
    • Four other episodes
  • Maul 7: Liberation (the Son of Dathomir Audio Comic)
    • Four other episodes
  • Maul 8: The Siege of Mandalore quadrilogy

Next, we should pace our other Mandalorian elements throughout (Death Watch, darksaber, force kids, Boba Fett), especially getting episodes with armoured Mandos up front:

  • Prologue (the Tartakovsky Muunilinst/Hypori arc to introduce Ventress)
  • First proper episode (Smudger’s movie with tightened focus, and a cold open of Death Watch finding Maul from the beginning of Eminence)
    • Holocron Crisis - a good romp for all three main characters (Ahsoka, Anakin, Obi-Wan) as we learn Sidious wants Force Sensitive kids
    • The Mandalore Crisis (Mandalore Plot / Voyage of Temptation) - introducing Death Watch
  • Maul 1: Nightsisters trilogy (which hints at Maul at the end)
    • The second battle of Geonosis - Ahsoka’s competence grows, plus her relationship with Barriss
    • Heroes on Both Sides - shades of grey as Ahsoka meets Lux
    • Bounty Hunters - the main three in a prelude to Boba Fett’s appearance
  • Maul 2: The Return of Maul duology (Brothers and Revenge)
    • A Friend in Need - Ahsoka and Lux with more Death Watch
    • Boba Fett revenge arc
    • Three other episodes
  • Maul 3: Piracy (Revival)
    • The Academy - Ahsoka investigating corruption on Mandalore
    • Three other episodes
  • Maul 4: Syndicate (Eminence)
    • Four other episodes
  • Maul 5: Taking Mandalore (Shades of Reason)
    • Four other episodes
  • Maul 6: Lords of Mandalore (The Lawless)
    • The Fall of Ahsoka arc - The Wrong Jedi, etc
    • Three other episodes
  • Maul 7: Liberation (the Son of Dathomir Audio Comic)
    • Four other episodes
  • Maul 8: The Siege of Mandalore quadrilogy

The remainder will also be important but they’re less high priority than the above (so I’ll verify this first before fitting them in), plus they’ll probably be nearer to pure chronological order.

Interested in how that feels to people - does it pace well? Does it open with interest-grabbers, balance, and quality?

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Hello,
Just wanted to let everyone know that I don’t want to be connected to this project, or really mentioned in this thread at all if possible. And that’s because I feel like EddieDean is being kind of a douche for the reasons I’ve listed below.

EddieDean said:
“There’s no real need for movie-length episodes of this series.”
“Ultimately these challenges are going to appear and need solving for any TV-to-movie attempt.”
“There’s a difference between establishing credibility (which is non competitive) and looking to boost appeal or to put down others (which is).”
“But there’s no competition in this space - every time any fan edit gets released, the community as a whole benefits.”

You correctly say that fanediting isn’t a competition, but your behavior suggests otherwise. You’re constantly trying to prove that your edit is “the best way to watch the series” while claiming that other attempts don’t work and are unnecessary. That’s not necessary to “establish credibility”.

EddieDean said:
“But I need to be critical here, with the intention of releasing (in my subjective opinion) the best experience.

You don’t need to criticize other fanedits or make yours out to be the best. You could’ve simply said that you’re taking a different approach and left it at that.
You should just talk about your own ideas and edits without trying to drag everyone else’s down. I’m sure you’ll deny that being your intention as you did before, but it’s pretty obvious that is what’s happening here.

EddieDean said:
“Smudger9’s second movie, while unquestionably brilliant, illustrates those two main issues with forcing yourself to adhere to the two hour approach.”

I also feel like you are misunderstanding the point of film edits. No one is editing the series for the sole reason of adhering to a film-like runtime, or “forcing themselves” as you say. Many editors (myself included) simply feel that the story of The Clone Wars series works better when condensed into a film format, since it’s a pretty cinematic series that tells a story on par with the movies. I realize that you disagree with that opinion, but opinions obviously aren’t facts.

Also, another goal of film-length edits is to make the series more accessible to casual viewers who wouldn’t watch the amazing stories told in it otherwise. That was one of the main goals of my edits, and I feel like I succeeded in that respect. Yes I simply “aggregated” episodes together and added a crawl, but that was my main intention since I feel the series is already great without altering things too much.

I’m sure my response to your post will get a bad response, but you did say that other users should feel free to challenge the things you said in this thread. I have no intention of engaging in an argument, but I just wanted to let you know that I also feel your wording of things is kind of disrespectful, as other users have pointed out.

EddieDean said:
IMPORTANTLY THOUGH: GUYS, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CHALLENGE ME ON ANYTHING I’VE MENTIONED IN THIS THREAD.

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S06E08-09 - The Bardotta Arc - Objectionable

Another horrible one. Jar Jar and Mace Windu team up to save Jar Jar’s romantic interest from people who can steal the literal force from people into orbs and want to focus the sun in order to bring back Mother Talzin. Fuck off. Goofy nonsense, and the Talzin content is irrelevant because she’s often either dying or coming back so there’s no story gain here. Gross.

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That concludes the objectionable episodes, so I might as well summarise them here.

These are the episodes that I intend to exclude from my edit altogether. I might butcher them for parts to use in other episodes, but as far as I’m concerned, these are episodes which are actively hard to watch.

Take a look and share your thoughts:

  • The Huttlet elements of the original movie
  • s01e06-07 - Downfall/Duel of the Droids, for terrible animation and a bland setting
  • s01e08 - Bombad Jedi, for being competely Jar Jar antics
  • s01e17-18 - Blue Shadow Virus duology, for being goofy, bland, and having a wacky villain
  • s01e01 - Ambush, for terrible animation, Toydarians, and a goofy game plot; and parts of s03e03 Supply Lines, which have a similar plot issue plus Jar Jar
  • s03e04 - Sphere of Influence, for being about George Lucas’ self-insert saving his daughter’s self-insert from Greedo
  • s03e08-09, s01e22 - Ziro the Hutt arc, for Ziro being obnoxious and the cheapening of the Hutts as villains
  • s03e15-17 - the Mortis arc (IN THIS FORM), for being massively heavy-handed and demistifying the force. I will attempt the compromise of turning this into more of a vision and less of a literal experience.
  • s05e10-13 - the Aberfar / droid commandos arc, for having goofy abrasive characters and a horrible setting
  • s06e08-09 - The Disappeared, for being a goofy team-up and having Jar Jar romance

Any objections to me killing these with fire? Any nice scenes, ideas, or elements we’d lose if we chopped those?

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ExpandedUniverses said:

Snipped

No, that’s absolutely fair of you to say, I certainly have been critical of other works - though never intended as a personal attack on the editor or to belittle the effort and technical skills demonstrated. I apologise for any upset caused.

I can also sympathise if you feel like I have particularly hammered it home, since I keep. saying. the same. thing., because I’ve been reviewing multiple sources in quick succession while compiling my thoughts for this, and each time I have done it’s reaffirmed the same conclusion, which I’ve been sharing here. So I can certainly understand you feeling offended because of both the volume of my comparative analysis, and the language I’m using in this thread being particularly critical.

You’re right that it’s been raised multiple times now, so your message is welcome and heard. I’ll put more effort into demonstrating explicit respect for other editors and other approaches.

I would like to draw attention to the fact that I am currently maintaining an upload of all five of Smudger’s movies, since I know how popular and rare that they are. I do this so that people may enjoy his edits, independently of the fact that I am working on my own edit. I hope this goes some way towards demonstrating that I do not believe we are in competition, and that I have great respect for other editors.

If there’s any specific language in any of my posts (or especially in the OP) which you have particular issue with, please let me know (either here or privately) and I’ll change it.

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The whole idea of fanediting is for the editor to make something they feel is subjectively better than the original/other edits, or at least interesting enough to be worth making. No one would bother making an edit that they believed someone else had already completely nailed, so there’s always some implied criticism there, but I think we all understand that this is the case because taste in edits is extremely subjective. For instance, I don’t work on my personal edits of the saga movies because I think HAL9000, NFBisms, Siliconmaster etc. are trash editors or something; it’s because there’s always a few things in any edit that I’d like to see done differently, or ideas I’ve had that I’d like to try out.

I got the impression that EddieDean’s not criticising the individual skill of other faneditors, but rather the concept of turning TCW into a series of full-length movies in general. This doesn’t mean edits that do try to do that suck; just that EddieDean thinks there’s potential in a different format. Re: “forcing yourself” to adhere to ~two hours; I only read this as being in contrast to his plan to release edits of much more variable lengths. Going for a “film format” implies that the edits would be all be approximately feature-film length, and it’d be odd if one of the “films” in a TCW film edit series was suddenly 30 mins long instead of 90 or 120, right?

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Thanks Sade.

By way of further defence, I think this earlier quote best demonstrates the way I am intending to present the balance between my comparative analysis of existing edits and my deference for other editors.

EddieDean said:

I must emphasise, that if you do have the goal of turning TCW into movies, that I believe that Smudger’s are the best that could possibly be produced. I’m simply believing that there’s a justifiable case for an alternative approach.

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If I understand, and I probably don’t, the idea that the clones have chips in their heads will be removed?

That’s one example of things that make TCW feel incongruous to me, as the films characterize them as being genetically engineered to obey orders without question and be inhumanly docile. The Kaminoian prime minister in AOTC didn’t say, “We placed chips in their heads to make them more docile than the original host.”

My stance on revising fan edits.

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Hal 9000 said:

If I understand, and I probably don’t, the idea that the clones have chips in their heads will be removed?

That’s one example of things that make TCW feel incongruous to me, as the films characterize them as being genetically engineered to obey orders without question and be inhumanly docile. The Kaminoian prime minister in AOTC didn’t say, “We placed chips in their heads to make them more docile than the original host.”

Without wanting to spoil it for you, the episodes that expand on the obedience of the clones are generally considered to be particularly decent. They do reveal a new technical layer to that obedience, but I don’t know of anything featured in the episodes which is considered breaking established understanding.

The show does introduce new layers - or new interpretations - to established events. And obviously for any viewer there’s a chance that the retro-changes will conflict with their personal interpretation. However, one of the widely agreed on strengths of Clone Wars is the emotional resonance of the consequences of a lot of these additions.

To pick an example which isn’t too spoilery: You may have an initial hesitation when you hear that Obi-Wan had a romantic interest before episode 2. You might become more comfortable when it’s clarified that she loved him, but as a Jedi, he knew he couldn’t return that love. But you may still feel like this addition doesn’t belong. But the payoff for that new element is beautiful - I think that once you saw it you’d agree it was worth it.

Edit: To be more specific about answering your question, I’m not certain about that particular storyline. The addition doesn’t add much story value, and while it has some great moments it does have weak parts. It is referenced later in an important way, so I need to take a closer look at how all those elements play together. I’m tending towards downplaying the clone elements in my quality cut, or at least not treating them as mandatory.

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@EddieDean – FWIW, you’ve been more than diligent in ensuring the utmost respect be held for other fanedits, all the while thinking critically about how you want to move forward with your particular fanedit. I respect @EU’s opinion on the matter, but I have such respect for your transparency, commitment to discourse, and just plan simple human decency you’ve brought to the table with this thread. It’s clear for those of us following this entire thread regularly that your respect for others, their opinions and experiences, and the source material itself is paramount, and it’s remarkable the level of “normalcy” this thread has maintained given that we’re all anonymous and posting on the internet in a web forum. That’s nearly always due to the OP setting the tone for the subsequent discussion, and you’ve done a phenomenal job wrapping this whole community into your personal journey, which isn’t something you needed to do (but have done anyway). You’ve got integrity, and so few of us on forums do, and I for one am thankful for it.

Tl;DR: Keep up the good work, and good on ya for being a person.

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Well that’s extremely good of you to say, McFibb. Those are some absolutely lovely sentiments, thank you.

In my opinion, the strongest edits this community have produced have been those which incorporated the most analysis and discussion. So I certainly want to be as analytical as possible, and share it here.

However, if I can make this place more welcoming for the likes of ExpandedUniverses then I will do so.

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There’s one question I can imagine some people having which I guess I’ll address in advance:

“So it sounds like all you’re doing here is producing an episode list.”

Yes and no.

Firstly yes, a major component of this project will be the ordering of the episodes. It wasn’t necessarily my intention coming into this project, but on review and having tried to analyse the show as a whole, I believe there’s genuine value in a different structure.

Consider also: A movie editor may move scenes around; an editor of a whole TV series may move episodes around. Just because some may not have been technically edited (and unedited episodes remain part of the structure) does not mean the whole hasn’t been functionally edited.

Secondly, no, I will be producing ‘legitimate’ technical edits as well. There are some obvious arcs which require editing- I think maybe four or five priority ones. And every episode will be getting a presentation pass, with new titles, opening text, and closing credits which feature the best art for the episode.

As I pick each such episode off the shelf for its presentation pass, there will also be any polish trims as required.

This may follow a second full review of the series in something approaching the new order, as I work through the kinks of that, and as I look more deeply at each individual episode to see what work needs to be done.

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I’ve also decided on the first test/pilot episode I’ll produce and make available to the community.

CLOAK OF DARKNESS / LAIR OF GRIEVOUS

It’s probably not one that’s highly anticipated, which is fine, but it serves multiple useful purposes:

  1. It’s one of the more technically complex episodes, since it’ll require merging, polish, new sound work, and the creation of new scenes from third sources. So it’ll be a good technical challenge to get my skills back up to scratch, and to demonstrate those skills to you all.
  2. It’s early, not too spoilery, and not vital, so it makes a good episode to present to the community to help refine both my technical edits and the standards for openings and credits which I intend to present.
  3. While not one of the more anticipated elements, it’s one of the best examples of a potential “value add” edit, where the output could feel significantly improved over the inputs. It’s also one which, in my mind, is on the cusp between important and not important. So after it’s been produced, the community will be able to decide whether or not it belongs in the Quality Cut or a lower one.

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I’ve made the following to help visualise the cuts I intend to produce. Each cut will include the complete cut above it - you only get more content as you go down the pyramid, never less. This way, if you’re the kind of person who really wants to watch a curated ‘best of’ experience but who doesn’t need to see Ackbar’s origins, you’d choose the Quality Cut. But if you need to get your Saw Gerrera fix, you’d pick up the Continuity Cut.

The different cuts

Obviously, if a story is both Quality and Continuity, then it’ll appear in the Quality cut, so there will of course be lots of continuity in the quality cut. Episodes are placed in the highest category available.

There’s not anything too special to this presentation - I’ll mostly be using it in the master document to help direct people to the episodes they are most interested in for the experience they choose.

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EddieDean said:

I’ve made the following to help visualise the cuts I intend to produce. Each cut will include the complete cut above it - you only get more content as you go down the pyramid, never less. This way, if you’re the kind of person who really wants to watch a curated ‘best of’ experience but who doesn’t need to see Ackbar’s origins, you’d choose the Quality Cut. But if you need to get your Saw Gerrera fix, you’d pick up the Continuity Cut.

The different cuts

Obviously, if a story is both Quality and Continuity, then it’ll appear in the Quality cut, so there will of course be lots of continuity in the quality cut. Episodes are placed in the highest category available.

There’s not anything too special to this presentation - I’ll mostly be using it in the master document to help direct people to the episodes they are most interested in for the experience they choose.

That’s quite a helpful infographic.

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Artan42 said:

That’s quite a helpful infographic.

Thanks. I think these are the primary audiences, the main reasons someone might want an edited version of Clone Wars. But I’m interested to know if anyone can think of any alternative approaches.

‘For Kids’ is one I considered, but that’s not really one I think it’s worth curating around. It’s a different goal to mine. Besides, you want to show kids one of two things: (1) Fun, light entertainment, in which case you just have the original version of the show or chronological order. You’re being less discerning with this approach so you’re not after curation, I reckon. (2) They’re the kind of kids who can follow a story and you want to hit them with the best quality, in which case any of the cuts other than Mando should be fine. Both kids and adults can enjoy the same thing (emotional resonance) and be bored of the same thing (deregulation of banks, etc). It’s not a matter of maturity.

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It’ll be the Quality cut I’d like to show weekly here. This’ll be harmless for those who want to supplement it with elements of the lower two cuts, but I’d like to have the Quality Cut as the focus because I’d like to give it the best chance to speak for itself. There are well liked episodes which I’m not going to be including in the Quality Cut, and I’d like as large an audience as possible to test my theory that their inclusion doesn’t deliver as much value as they are believed to. As a fairly radical thing, I’d really like that tested and challenged, I guess asking the question “If we didn’t know these episodes existed, would we miss them?”

I can’t believe I’m suggesting to people to not watch things they like - or not watch things I myself like! But I believe this is worth a real shot, mainly for the sake of the potential viewers who haven’t seen the Clone Wars yet, who have that hesitation about a famously wobbly kids show, who want that quality feel of Mandalorian more than they just want to eat up as much Star Wars as possible.

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EddieDean said:

These are the episodes that I intend to exclude from my edit altogether.

  • s05e10-13 - the Aberfar / droid commandos arc, for having goofy abrasive characters and a horrible setting

I know you did mention Gregor already; but besides Mortis this is the only totally excluded arc which does have any important continuity. It’s been a while since I watched it, but is there any hope there for just a ~20 minute thing featuring Gregor being a Commando and not much else?

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sade1212 said:

EddieDean said:

These are the episodes that I intend to exclude from my edit altogether.

  • s05e10-13 - the Aberfar / droid commandos arc, for having goofy abrasive characters and a horrible setting

I know you did mention Gregor already; but besides Mortis this is the only totally excluded arc which does have any important continuity. It’s been a while since I watched it, but is there any hope there for just a ~20 minute thing featuring Gregor being a Commando and not much else?

Good spot and good question. As I watched it, I was looking for opportunities to preserve exactly those elements, as you say. Ultimately, the episode must contain a lot of clunkiness and some abrasive characters - though perhaps a little less than the rest of the arc. It’s definitely an awkward episode, though perhaps it is salvageable with some framing and trims. I’ll take a note to consider it and perform another review, though it’ll be a lower priority edit than most.

Even if it can be preserved, I wouldn’t call it important, because the fact that Rebels features a mentally ill clone doesn’t necessitate that we see the clone in his prior appearance. (Especially because the mental illness isn’t related to his loss of memory on Aberfar, but rather the explosion that he ended up in at the end of the episode, and clones getting caught in explosions isn’t much of a suprise.) So little is added by knowing him before, other than I suppose a bit more sympathy for him. But he’s mostly played for laughs in Rebels so I don’t think it’s too important to be sympathetic either.

Still! I’ve created a new ‘awkward’ category in my notes for these couple of episodes. I’ll see what I can do, and preserve it if I can! And of course there’s nothing stopping others from choosing to simply include this episode - my recommendations won’t be final, and users with pre-existing opinions will be able to achieve whatever they want with the cuts I produce.

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S05E02-05 - The Onderon Arc - Excludable - Continuity Cut

This one’s not Important, since it doesn’t further any of our core plots. It’s got an interesting theme - Ahsoka trains a rebellion insurgency - and it investigates that quite nicely, especially with the character of Stiela Gererra, who we regrettably don’t see again. It also shows some of the radicalisation for Saw Gererra, which would certainly be interesting for a fan of the wider franchise (the Continuity Cut). I don’t think it quite counts as interesting development for Ahsoka, since she’s portrayed as merely competent here (which we already know), and her plot with Lux actually doesn’t go beyond a little jealousy, which is a shame after some of the earlier setup.

As for editing this, you could tighten it up. The first two episodes could probably be turned into a montage interspersed with the main quotes, ending with the destruction of the power generator, allowing the main plot to focus on the people of Onderon in the insurgency.

As a note, I will probably be padding out the Quality Cut with items currently called Excludable, since I’ll want it paced well - I’ll just make sure I’m picking the best. After making sure I have the right Mando / Maul episodes, I’ll also look into Ahsoka’s arc in depth to make sure her character journey is a highlight.

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EddieDean said:
I don’t think it quite counts as interesting development for Ahsoka, since she’s portrayed as merely competent here (which we already know), and her plot with Lux actually doesn’t go beyond a little jealousy, which is a shame after some of the earlier setup.

You’re doing great work here, man!

I do feel like I need to stand up for this arc, though. On my recent rewatch, I came to realize how important this arc was for Ahsoka’s development. First, it provides catharsis regarding the Ahsoka-Lux relationship for the audience, which is important; seeds shouldn’t be planted if they don’t go anywhere (which we sadly learned with the ST). I know the arc doesn’t do a great job coming through on it in the writing, but at least it addresses the relationship’s culmination/end. Second, while admittedly very subtle, there are two things Ahsoka struggles with here: her jealousy, obviously, meaning that she wants to hold onto Lux – a moment where she’s tempted to be possessive (a very Dark Side emotion)…but even more than that, she realizes that she needs to let go of her attachment to Lux (on a romantic level) AND her attachments in general (on a spiritual/Jedi level). This realization is then immediately challenged when she can’t save the girl Lux loves at the end, making her question her role as a Jedi and feel kind of powerless. It’s setting her up for more internal conflict that we see pay off with Barris in her trial arc.

I may not be adequately articulating what I’m trying to say here, but I hope you get the gist. I think it’s at least worth discussing.