StarkillerAG said:
But I could also argue that in a time of such heated political debates, with both sides seemingly willing to start a second US civil war at the flip of a switch, I don’t know if a movie that says “your enemies are beyond all hope, kill them all” is what we really need right now.This is twice you’ve tried to make what I said into a completely separate thing and I still don’t understand why you’re doing it.
You were the one who started with the whole “what we need in Star Wars right now” thing, I was just going along with it.
Lord of the Rings and other fantasy related stories get away with it because they’re good stories executed well, which is all any story needs to “get away” with almost anything. I legit don’t understand why a Star Wars fan would immediately, automatically, reject the notion that it would be nice for a new Star Wars movie to NOT be so hung up on a redemption narrative.
I’m not rejecting it, you’re misinterpreting me. I just don’t see why redemption stories are always bad, or why villain characters shouldn’t be allowed redemption.
And yes, Darth Vader’s Redemption in the OT was mostly unsatisfying dramatically. The satisfaction in the OT’s end wasn’t Vader’s redemption, but Luke’s success. Return of the Jedi is the least satisfying of the three and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that it’s the one that became a story about saving Darth Vader. Luke’s success is what made it work, not Vader’s redemption. The two are interlinked, but they’re not the same thing. Kylo’s arc was bad because it was poorly written, executed poorly, and in the end, the focus on his arc at the expense of almost everyone else’s story made that story unsatisfying. Which is why I said It’d be nice if there was a new Star Wars movie that wasn’t so focused on redeeming the genocidal idiot bad guy for once.
That’s completely subjective. I personally thought that ROTJ was mediocre because of the first two acts, and the part where Vader gets redeemed is actually the best part of the movie. I also thought that TROS was disappointing because the story was rushed and Palpatine’s resurrection was contrived, both of which had nothing to do with Kylo’s redemption. They could have still had a redemption for Kylo without creating any of the movie’s issues.
I don’t get how your argument ever really addresses my suggestion that a Star Wars movie not focused on a “redeem the bad guy” narrative could be fun to watch, and that giving the “redeem the bad guy” narrative a rest is a valid option they could pursue. I simply would like to see that again. It worked pretty well back in 1977, for example. Star Wars doesn’t only have to be the one kind of story, and I’d like to see a more simple good v. evil story in this fantasy movie.
I don’t see what’s so wrong with that.
I agree with that, and I can see why a simplistic good-vs-evil story would be appealing. Avengers Endgame had that kind of story, and it made insane amounts of money at the box office. I just don’t see why you should dismiss the redemption story entirely either. In my opinion, it can definitely be executed well.