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Star Wars 1977 70mm sound mix recreation [stereo and 5.1 versions now available] (Released) — Page 28

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hairy_hen said:
Analog mixes, with their inherent limitations, just so happened to fall into the range of what is comfortable for people to listen to over long periods.

That being so, a helpful guideline for audio engineers might be to mix in digital as if analog were the intended output.

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Thank you so much for alllll your hard work and the detailed explanation of your whole process! You rock, hairy-hen!

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Weird about the Obi-Wan music… so the “83 mix” we’ve been using is really an “83 home video mix”, and the “83 theatrical mix” has different content? Am I getting that right? EDIT: I re-read what you wrote and nevermind, I get it now.

Also, any chance of a GOUT sync for this?

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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My intent is not to step on any toes, but I’ve made a GOUT-synced version of this new 6-channel ROTJ audio, for those who want to pair it with something other than 4K83. It is almost entirely identical to what hairy_hen released (the theatrical version, not the one with the added score), and any problems with it are almost certainly a result of me mucking something up, not him.

If you’re interested, PM me for a link. I’ve got this available in lossless DTS-MA and lossy Dolby Digital (640k and 448k) formats, which should cover pretty much every use case I can think of.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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I hope the 5.1ch mix for TESB will have a 70mm version which will contain the changes which were on the 70mm mix like Luke saying “You were lucky to get out of there” instead of “You’re lucky you didn’t taste very good” among other things.

I want a rough recreation of the 70mm mix but synced to the GOUT (or 4K80 when it comes out and the sync is different lie in 4K83).
For people who prefer the original 35mm mix, keep a “Purist” 5.1ch mix as well.

It would be great for the trilogy so that the 5.1 mixes recreate the 70mm 6-track mixes.
SW and ROTJ are pretty much 5.1 versions of the Dolby Stereo mixes while TESB will be different, just like the actual 70mm mixes.

I do have a soft spot in my heart for the mono mixes, though.

And I’ve loved every pixel of it.
(Clarissa Darling, Clarissa Explains It All)

You’re so right.
(Kylo Ren, Star Wars: The Force Awakens)

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Swift S. Lawliet said:

I hope the 5.1ch mix for TESB will have a 70mm version which will contain the changes which were on the 70mm mix like Luke saying “You were lucky to get out of there” instead of “You’re lucky you didn’t taste very good” among other things.

Those weren’t part of the 70mm mix. We have in-theater audio recordings of the 70mm mix to prove it, which also prove that the ending sequence was cut differently, meaning you couldn’t make a true 70mm mix restoration and just include it as a separate audio track; you’d need to alter the video as well.

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ChainsawAsh said:

Swift S. Lawliet said:

I hope the 5.1ch mix for TESB will have a 70mm version which will contain the changes which were on the 70mm mix like Luke saying “You were lucky to get out of there” instead of “You’re lucky you didn’t taste very good” among other things.

Those weren’t part of the 70mm mix. We have in-theater audio recordings of the 70mm mix to prove it, which also prove that the ending sequence was cut differently, meaning you couldn’t make a true 70mm mix restoration and just include it as a separate audio track; you’d need to alter the video as well.

Okay. But my point is, I think a rough approximation of the 70mm mix but synced to the 35mm cut would be great for 4K80 and Harmy’s Despecialized.
It would be nigh-impossible to restore the 70mm cut unless we find a full 70mm print.

And I’ve loved every pixel of it.
(Clarissa Darling, Clarissa Explains It All)

You’re so right.
(Kylo Ren, Star Wars: The Force Awakens)

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 (Edited)

Swift S. Lawliet said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Swift S. Lawliet said:

I hope the 5.1ch mix for TESB will have a 70mm version which will contain the changes which were on the 70mm mix like Luke saying “You were lucky to get out of there” instead of “You’re lucky you didn’t taste very good” among other things.

Those weren’t part of the 70mm mix. We have in-theater audio recordings of the 70mm mix to prove it, which also prove that the ending sequence was cut differently, meaning you couldn’t make a true 70mm mix restoration and just include it as a separate audio track; you’d need to alter the video as well.

Okay. But my point is, I think a rough approximation of the 70mm mix but synced to the 35mm cut would be great for 4K80 and Harmy’s Despecialized.

I’m about 95% sure hairy_hen determined it’s essentially the same as the 35mm mix except for the picture editing differences at the end, but I could be mistaken. I’ll try and find the thread discussing it.

JEDIT: https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Hopefully-the-last-70mm-vs-35mm-ESB-audio-differences-thread/id/14128

And from another thread:

hairy_hen said:

The 35mm and 70mm ESB mixes are actually very similar for the most part. Only a few small differences between them, with the exception of the very last scene of the film, which is significantly different due to the change in editing.

The 16mm mono has a number of changes that later ended up in the special edition, as well as the foreign language versions.

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Yeah, I got confused by this as well – Puggo’s 8mm digest ESB project includes the same video differences as the 70mm version, so I just assumed the audio differences in that version were similar if not the same as the 70mm. But that’s not the case – in-theatre recordings confirm the 70mm audio was extremely close to the 35mm audio, in spite of the different video. Go figure.

EDIT: Also, if you haven’t heard it, the 8mm digest audio has even more differences from the 35mm audio than the 16mm audio. Give it a listen, it has lots of “what the hell?” moments, and features alternate Leia dialogue where her lip movements actually match what’s said, rather than the 35mm version, where they definitely don’t (“I know where Luke is.”)

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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As of this week, I finally have a proper Star Wars-worthy surround system, so obviously I’m going to take advantage of this development soon.

I have some questions for people more familiar with surround setups:

  1. I calibrated the new speakers using MCACC Pro, which seems fine for the speakers, but seems to have effed up the sub levels. I’m assuming that if I use an SPL meter, I can produce a 60Hz test tone from my fronts, mark down that level, and then produce a 60Hz test tone from my sub and adjust the sub’s volume knob until it matches the same level as the fronts. I’d also try to zero out any receiver-driven adjustments before doing this. Seems sensible, but is it correct?

  2. Eventually I may determine that I want to boost the center channel in an attempt to further improve dialog clarity. Obviously this is a blunt tool for a subtle problem, so what’s the safe range for adjustments?

  3. Should I admit to hairy_hen that I’ve been enjoying his mixes downmixed to stereo until now?

  4. Do you have favorite bits of the trilogy as far as the surround presentation is concerned?

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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With receiver and surround setup it all depends on the room and listening environment. Mcacc sounds like a version of audyssey etc. which should adjust your receiver to your correct room parameters.

You should be able to fine tune as needed and yes do go ahead and disable any extra sound functions in the receiver. Your sub performance will also depend on if you are sending it just lfe if you have full range main speakers or are using a crossover point which sends it some of the speaker low end bass content as well. You’re on the right track and will have to test some audio and self adjust and tweak from there. The sub should never overwhelm and sadly most people simply crank it up for the booming effect.

Center adjustments should be in receiver options on a single dB level. You’ll have to have a track playing and play it by ear with adjusting until it’s at a sensible level.

I would also suggest to toe in your main l and r channels toward your listening position.

In terms of best surround moments it will be more limited with the OT mixes due to their vintage. Overall you get so much more of the correct ambiance back in a HT setup that its hard to pick just one moment. You’d notice surround much more on the 97SE mixes which are great for their time. Easiest would be the prequel audio to get a sense of fully utilizing your setup. TPM’s theatrical Dolby EX audio is a must in the main sequences and will phantom center the rear surround behind your head if your surrounds are correctly placed.
I love the AOTC mix which is the best part of the film. For surround the no. 1 choice would be the Geonosis asteroid field with Jango’s seismic charges.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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Thank you for your help/validation, and it sounds like I’ve got things pretty well dialed in. I am using an 80Hz sub crossover in the receiver, so the sub is taking more than just LFE. I did a sweep tone and discovered a phase issue with the sub, and now everything’s sounding good – very even response comparing the sub to the fronts, no crazy boominess like you said. Part of the problem with the room, aside from acoustics, is the seating. It’s all over the place, and there’s probably no seat actually within the sweet spot – this is part of why I’m excited to finally have a center channel.

I am looking to boost the center though. After trying it a bit absolutely flat (same response as fronts), it turns out I would not describe the issue so much as dialogue clarity, so much as that I always watch movies with the volume lower than reference levels. That means that the loud score and effects are at my upper volume limits for what I’d like, but still lower than it was “intended for”, while dialog is often simply too quiet. So I ride the volume button, up, down, up, down, through the film – doable, but a drag. At the moment I’m testing boosting the center 1.5dB to see if that helps get the dialog up to good levels without unduly distorting anything else that’s coming through the center. It may be I can’t get one without the other, and I’ll just ride that volume button some more.

I’m mostly looking for OT moments to try out the surround setup, particularly hairy_hen’s mixes. Venturing outside the OT, I’m waiting to give Master and Commander a listen, because I hear glowing things about that.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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About a year ago I re-calibrated my 5.1 system again, so I can relate a few insights from having done that.

I’ve never used MCACC, but my receiver has Audyssey and I’ve been letting it do its thing with EQ and time correction for the speakers. The results seem to be quite dependent on giving it accurate measurements, so it can potentially end up sounding weird if this isn’t done correctly, but if you do it right it can be remarkably good at balancing the level and tone of each speaker. Before running the measurements you should do everything possible to make the room itself suitable; make sure the speakers are ideally placed at the proper angle and distance from the listening position; try to avoid putting them in the corners to avoid boominess, etc. If you can (as in, if money and space aren’t an issue), try to add bass traps and diffusers to cut down on room reflections, which can be particularly nasty in smaller rooms with hard parallel surfaces. Corrective EQ alone can give great results, but chances are the correction will only actually sound good within a small area of the room unless the larger acoustic issues are dealt with. Acoustic treatment makes the room correction have to work less hard, enabling it to sound good within a wider area. Doing this properly is out of the realm of realistic possibility for many people, but it’s something to look into if you can.

I have found that dialing in the subwoofer to blend with the main speakers can be the trickiest part of setting up a system like this, but it is very rewarding once you do get it right. Room issues are particularly problematic with bass, and you will almost always end up with huge jumps in loudness between different frequencies. Because my receiver only seems able to correct the main channels, last year I decided I’d had enough of my room’s unevenness and ended up getting a miniDSP 2x4 HD to handle subwoofer EQ. After some trial and error doing measurements with Room EQ Wizard, I was able to dial in a very smooth response that is almost perfectly flat at my listening position throughout the sub’s operating range. This made a huge difference to the tonal quality of the bass, and it has made it much easier to trust the results and know that it will sound correct in other rooms and on other playback systems. The 5.1 mix for 4K83 is the first project I worked on with the miniDSP after doing this, and I noticed right away that I was able to dial in the LFE levels far more quickly and reliably than I ever had on any previous version.

One thing to keep in mind is the Fletcher-Munson effect. Human ears are not very good at hearing low frequencies compared to the midrange, so many people often complain that flat bass response sounds weak and boring. Since this perception is rooted in the science of how we hear, applying some amount of bass boost to compensate is a valid thing to do. The question becomes how to do this, and how much. Using a system with Audyssey, I always engage the ‘Dynamic EQ’ feature, which is essentially a Fletcher-Munson compensation curve applied during playback. Low frequencies are boosted in relation to the master volume setting; the lower the playback level, the more boost is applied, and the very low bass notes are pushed up to a greater extent than the upper bass. Our hearing is closest to flat at 85 dB (C-weighted), so movie theaters are calibrated for a flat response at this level, with 20 dB of headroom above this in the main channels (30 dB for the LFE). In the acoustics of a small room in one’s house, playback settings louder than -15 dB or so from reference level tend to be far too loud for comfortable listening, so at lower levels the bass response is almost inevitably going to be too weak unless it is boosted beyond flat to some extent.

With the typical low end boominess found in most rooms, chances are you can just measure the sub with an SPL meter, set it to the same output as the speakers, and its total level will sound approximately correct even though the frequency response is all over the place. This is exactly what I had to do before I got the miniDSP. But once you actually set up your system for a flat response and do any kind of critical listening on it, it becomes equally important to listen at the right level to make things sound even. At 85 dB no bass boost is required, but below that it is actually essential if you don’t want it to sound too quiet. Audyssey’s Dynamic EQ tends to make things sound boomy if there isn’t any subwoofer correction applied, but with a flat response, it boosts by just the right amount. I’m not sure what MCACC does about this, but it may be necessary to apply some kind of custom ‘house curve’ if it doesn’t automatically compensate for lower playback level. Such a custom curve would only be completely correct at the volume setting at which it was measured, but it would be better than not having one at all.

Another thing to think of is the potential effect of Dialog Normalization, which reduces the total playback volume by a set amount (usually -4 dB for tracks that use it). Dynamic EQ is supposed to compensate for DialNorm and apply more bass boost, but on my receiver they seem to have forgotten to implement this. I noticed right away after setting up the miniDSP that movies with DialNorm had significantly weaker bass than they should have (comparing Dolby tracks at -27 DialNorm vs DTS versions of the same mixes with no reduction made this really obvious), so eventually I ended up creating my own ‘house curve’ to use on DialNorm tracks. I started with the same EQ settings as before but applied 3.5 dB of additional gain to the subwoofer output, along with a 2 dB shelf filter below 40 Hz. These settings are only completely correct for tracks with a DialNorm setting of -27 at a playback level of -11 or so (-15 after the reduction), but it’s been working well for me for many movies and TV shows that have DialNorm applied. If your receiver doesn’t have Dynamic EQ then obviously this workaround isn’t directly applicable, but it’s something to keep in mind when considering whether to implement a bass boost that will work with your preferred volume setting.

The issue of needing to ride the volume knob to compensate for dialog being too quiet compared to action scenes is unfortunately a very common problem these days, and it has a lot to do with digital mixing and its lack of safeguards against abusing headroom. (I talked about this at some length in my post on the 4K83 mix.) A lot of people seem to regard boosting the center channel as a go-to solution for this, but remember that many sound effects may be mixed into the center in addition to dialog – if you do this they’re just going to get boosted too, so it’s not really ideal. I’m not especially in favor of unbalancing a playback system to compensate for mixing deficiencies… a potentially better thing to do, if the action scenes are too loud, would be to compress the dynamics (with ‘Night Mode’ or whatever they call it) when listening to material that has bad dialog levels. That way all of the speech will be intelligible, while the peaks will be cut down to something that won’t blast your head off. Using compression shouldn’t be necessary during any of my Star Wars mixes – I went to a great deal of trouble with 4K83 in particular to ensure that it wouldn’t be – but unfortunately there’s a lot of material out there that doesn’t take adequate consideration for such things.

Now, about demo-worthy scenes… captainsolo is correct that there isn’t really that much “flashy” surround usage in the original mixes for the Star Wars films. Usually they only used the surrounds for ambience, so it’s not the kind of thing you’ll notice right away unless you’re specifically listening for it. The mixers approached them knowing there was a good chance any given theater wouldn’t even have surround speakers or subwoofers hooked up at all, so their primary goal was to make the movies work with just the front channels and only add in the rest afterwards for extra flavor. There are stand-out moments here and there, of course: right at the beginning the rebel blockade runner can be heard from behind before it appears on screen, Obi-wan’s roar to scare away the sandpeople swoops from front to back and fills the room, the sound of his lightsaber in the cantina emanates from all speakers at once, etc. Luke can be heard in the surrounds deflecting blaster bolts on the Falcon, his and Leia’s speech just before the chasm shootout echoes from behind quite obviously, and there are several instances of the Millennium Falcon and other ships panning from front to back or vice versa. It doesn’t sound like a modern movie with lots of surround effects moving all over the place, but it’s just a matter of adjusting your expectations. I actually prefer this sort of mono-surround mix to a lot of the more recent stuff, because they tend to be more balanced between all the different elements. The special editions are way more flashy in this respect, but I find them kind of crass because it’s so obvious that all of the new sound effects are mixed a lot louder than the ones that were already there.

Anyway, as long as you aren’t downmixing it anymore, I’m sure you’ll think it’s fine… 😛

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Thank you very much for the detailed response. Yes, my room acoustics are definitely the biggest unaddressed problem, and it’s likely to stay that way (bad corners, smallish nook in a weird-shaped medium room, large hard reflective parallel surfaces, you name it). The most likely way out of that hole, for me, is to build a new room designed for movie playback from the start – and that’s honestly not very likely.

It’s good to hear that subwoofer calibration seems to be a perennial problem for everyone. It was a little annoying to fix one thing only to discover another, but it was also a learning experience, and now I know a little more about how these things work.

Yes, I do always listen at lower-than-reference, and that’s really the source of lots of problems, from the Fletcher-Munson curve to dialogue intelligibility. My receiver does have a night mode, but it only works for certain types of audio tracks (DTS, I think), and I find it compresses the dynamics a little too much for my tastes (it’s probably designed for listening at much quieter levels, and is only on/off, not adjustable), so I never went too far down that road. I’m not sure about dynamic EQ, so that’s definitely something for me to look into longer term.

So far the 1.5dB boost to the center has been going okay – a little less riding the volume button (not gone though), without any noticeable ill effects. Certainly it depends on the mix, though, and I’m trying to keep the amount of the boost well under 3dB to avoid surprises (centered loud SFX, etc). It will probably take many tests before I’m certain I’m comfortable with it. And if it all goes to hell, I’ll knock it back down to even with the other channels and ride the remote some more.

And thanks for the scene lists. I haven’t had the chance to listen to any of these in 5.1, and I’ll definitely pay attention. I just kinda wanted to iron out all of the major gremlins first before I did that. Although I didn’t come right out and say it, your audio mixes have become the definitive Star Wars audio experience for me, and I’m sure I’m not the only one. So thank you very much for that as well.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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I love your 70mm soundtrack recreation and I like you to do a 5.1 upmix of the theatrical Dolby Stereo soundtrack from the 1990 laserdisc of my favourite Disney film, The Little Mermaid in the future.😊😉😊😉

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I really hope hairy_hen makes isolated score tracks for The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi since the currently existing ones are not as accurate as hairy_hen’s isolated score Star Wars.
Also, is it possible to use the 24/192 2018 Walt Disney Records soundtrack remaster to base the isolated score on with the Anthology and Special Edition-only tracks just being upsamples of the existing CDs.
Even better if these newly updated isolated score tracks are actually 24/192.

And I’ve loved every pixel of it.
(Clarissa Darling, Clarissa Explains It All)

You’re so right.
(Kylo Ren, Star Wars: The Force Awakens)

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Can somebody point me in the right direction regarding where to find the 5.1 audio for 4K77?

First post, so please forgive my ignorance. There’s a lot to take in here! 😃

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It’s included in 4K77…just change audio tracks

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ChainsawAsh said:

It’s included in 4K77…just change audio tracks

Is it embedded in the m4v file? The 4K83 I found has the 5.1 audio as a separate .aac file, but the 4K77 I found didn’t.

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You downloaded someone else’s compressed re-encodes, then, not the actual official Team Negative1 releases.

Official releases of 4K77 and 4K83 are MKV files with multiple DTS-HD MA and Dolby Digital audio tracks, or Blu-Ray ISO files that also have DTS-HD MA and Dolby tracks. None of them are MP4/M4V and none of them have AAC audio.

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ChainsawAsh said:

You downloaded someone else’s compressed re-encodes, then, not the actual official Team Negative1 releases.

Official releases of 4K77 and 4K83 are MKV files with multiple DTS-HD MA and Dolby Digital audio tracks, or Blu-Ray ISO files that also have DTS-HD MA and Dolby tracks. None of them are MP4/M4V and none of them have AAC audio.

Gotcha. I may have been getting MKV / M4V confused as I was converting the UHD download to 1080p to author a Blu-ray. I did have the original TN1 MKV with the 5.1 audio, so I’m all good now!

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I was looking to know if this mysterious 70mm track (from the 4K77) was actually a real recording. I have my answers.
Thank you hairy_hen for your work.

Is there actually several people/theaters known to own a 70mm print or it is a one of a kind ?

Reading the few previous messages… since i moved few years ago, i realized how environement has a big impact on sound.
When you move from a square/rectangular room with hard wall, to an open room with half the wall beeing glass (large windows)… Well…

I had to buy a new amp and a umik… and later a miniDSP too for my sub 😃

A little off-topic, how is the Disney+/UHD soundtrack ? I must say i never listened to the DVD/BD soundtrack but i remember it was controversial (swaped music on surround tracks or something like that…)
(I have no complain against the 97 SE soundtrack)

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This is not based directly on a 70mm print. AFAIK nobody has a complete 70mm print, but certainly we’d be interested if one turned up, particularly for Star Wars (mostly for the audio) and Empire (for the audio and video). What we do have is in-theatre recordings (mono) of the 70mm mix, which tells us what the content differences are, and the fact that the Dolby surround encoded stereo mixes are closely related to the same four-track master used to create the 70mm mix. The 70mm mix was a 4.2 mix, which doesn’t quite align with the 5.1 home video standard, but it’s what we have, and 5.1 represents it well IMO.

So with a little audio archaeology, a little technical whiz-bangery, and quite a lot of audio skill, hairy_hen put this together, which is a reconstruction of the 70mm mix, but not literally the 70mm mix itself. But knowing the care that went into it, I trust it’s pretty close, and it’s my favorite audio track for Star Wars.

Similarly, the 5.1 mixes for Empire and Jedi are based on the same surround encoded stereo mixes being related to the four-track master used for the theatrical six-channel mixes. The difference being that we have no references for the 70mm audio mix for Jedi, and the 70mm mix for Empire requires the 70mm video (it would not sync with the 35mm video, and has unique audio we’d only be able to get from a print), so the six-channel audio we have is much closer to the stereo tracks in terms of content. These are more of tasteful upmixes than reconstructions, although hairy_hen did put some serious effort into improving the LFE channel, so they’re not simple upmixes either.

My SE knowledge is limited, but IIRC the 97 mixes are pretty good, but they introduced a bunch of crap in 2004. Some of those things, like the swapped surrounds, were later fixed. But a lot of the crap remains, and no SE mixes have measured up to the 97 mixes since.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Not that I know much about SE audio mixes, but I was under the impression that only ANH got a brand new audio mix for the 2004 release (largely inferior to the 97 mix), while ESB and ROTJ’s audio mixes were based on the 97 mixes with some changes, much like how ANH’s 1993 audio mix deviated from the original 35mm stereo mix a lot more than the 93 mixes of ESB and ROTJ.

edit: Oh, didn’t realize that I bumped the thread by accident. Sorry.

Nobody sang The Bunny Song in years…

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I have a maybe dumb question, but where do I get just the audio track for ESB? I have a copy of D+80 and really want higher quality audio than Dolby Digital. I really would like the DTS-HD MA 5.1 track.