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Religion — Page 127

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I’m not a Gnostic. I find its dualism problematic, actually. But I can still appreciate it. The Old Testament’s portrayal of God isn’t 100% ugly, but it still ascribes much ugliness to God. The Gnostics rightly recognized that ugliness as antithetical to the overall message of Jesus and rejected it; they just went a little too far.

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What ever became of the movement to make “Jedi” a choice for religion on the census? Wasn’t that actually accepted somewhere?

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The Crimes of Jezebel: A 3,000-Year-Old Murder Mystery

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy

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I think this userbox from RationalWiki sums up my beliefs on religion quite well:

“This user is an atheist but would be fine with a world where Christians were more like Jesus and less like Jerry Falwell.”

(I’m an agnostic, though.)

When’s something gonna happen?

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Dealing with Difference and Pluralism from the Perspective of Progressive Islam

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy

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My beliefs are a bit complex, however I still want to try to expose them.

I believe in the existence of God. My God is all-powerful, transcendent, eternal, omniscient, ubiquitous, and created the Universe. Moreover, I believe in the existence of the soul and its immortality, as well as in the existence of Heaven, Hell, and angels. However, I don’t consider myself a Christian, because I believe in these concepts as standalone concepts, therefore I don’t link them to the Bible or to Jesus.

I believe in the existence of the afterlife. Specifically, I believe in the existence of Heaven and Hell. But my view on Heaven and Hell differs a lot from Christianity.

I imagine these two realities as other dimensions, in which the soul passes after death. On one hand, Heaven is a dimension in which everything is beautiful and positive, a dimension where there’s no suffering, nor pain. And Heaven is also the place where God’s presence is stronger than anywhere else. On the contrary, Hell is another dimension where there’s nothing pleasant, a dimension where there are exclusively suffering and pain. However, I imagine them as real dimensions superimposed to our own Universe, in which people can lead a real life, like the one we lead here on Earth. With the only difference that in those dimensions we’re immortal and we have an indefinite space to live in, besides the fact that the laws of physics don’t apply, and therefore everything is possible.

With that being said, I’m not a Christian or a Muslim, so I don’t believe in the concept that you go to Hell if you don’t believe in what I say. In fact, I don’t believe that it’s God who sends people to Hell or Heaven in the first place.

My personal, spiritual belief states that there is a Universal Moral Law established by God at the beginning of the Creation, which each of us feels deep inside. Deep down, every single one of us knows exactly what’s right and what’s wrong. For example, deep down every single one of us knows that things like murdering, raping, or breaking someone’s heart are all wrong. You can tell yourself otherwise, but deep inside you know that these things are wrong. You can feel it in your heart, even if you deliberately want to deny reality. And since we all know deep inside what’s right and what’s wrong, then we are also capable of judging ourselves at the moment of death. Therefore, I believe that at the moment of death everyone knows exactly what’s the place in which he deserves to stay after death. So, you go to Hell exclusively when you yourself think that you deserve to go to Hell for what you did in your life. Thus, if you think that you deserve to go to Hell for the actions that you committed in your life, then you will go to Hell. The same applies with Heaven.

I also believe that Hell is not eternal. In my personal spiritual conception, every soul is capable of coming out from Hell and going to Heaven. But this happens exclusively when a person is capable of getting rid of his own guilt and forgive himself for what he did.

I don’t believe in the concept of “worshipping God”. From my point of view, God is an infinitely loving being who doesn’t need worshipping, but who does everything in a disinterested way. Contrary to the God of the Old Testament, who asked for worshipping in exchange for favors, my God does everything in a disinterested way and doesn’t need to be prayed or worshipped. For this reason I don’t worship him, nor I pray to him, but I simply surrender totally to his wisdom, his omnipotence and the benevolence of his plan. But don’t get me wrong, when I say that god is a disinterested being, I don’t mean that he doesn’t care about us. What I mean is that it’s not in his interest to be worshiped in exchange for the things that he does for us. God is so loving and so superior to his creatures that he does everything for them, but asks nothing in return. That’s why I say that he’s a disinterested being. Which doesn’t mean that you can’t worship him. If worshiping God and praying to him makes you feel better, then you can surely do that, you can worship him and pray to him all you want. He just doesn’t need you to do that, and doesn’t ask you to do that.

I share with the Christian theology the idea that God is like a loving Father. He’s the Father of everyone, indeed, and loves his creatures above everything else. Even the angels are like children for him, and he loves them as much as humans, or aliens.

As for angels, they’re spiritual creatures who deal with minor tasks. Their major function is to stand beside mortal beings, to guide them and helping them, but without them directly realizing it. God has endowed all intelligent beings in the Universe with free will,so the angels are no exception. If they wanted, they could disobey God’s orders and question them, but they don’t do it because they are in direct contact with the Creator and are aware of the absolute truth of God. Therefore, they don’t feel the need to rebel against him, despite they could theoretically do so. For this reason, I don’t believe in the existence of fallen angels who rebelled against God, and therefore I don’t believe in Satan’s existence either.

I don’t believe in the existence of an evil being who tempts humans to try to make them do bad things. My opinion on the subject is the same as that of Judaism: the angels are all good and are all servants of God, and evil has a completely human origin. All of us have the impulse to do bad things, but this impulse is not dictated by any fallen angel that tempts us, it’s simply something internal that characterizes us, and that we can reject and control if we want.

Moreover, in my Theistic conception there are no angelic hierarchies as in traditional Abrahamic religions. All angels are equal in the eyes of God and they all have the same powers.

And that’s… Pretty much what I believe in.

“Sometimes we must let go of our pride, and do what is requested to us.”
– Anakin Skywalker

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The belief that God doesn’t send people to hell, but that we send ourselves there, is exactly what mainstream Christianity believes (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and many varieties of Protestantism). It’s mostly just Calvinists and fundamentalists who don’t believe that.

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RicOlie_2 said:

The belief that God doesn’t send people to hell, but that we send ourselves there, is exactly what mainstream Christianity believes (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and many varieties of Protestantism). It’s mostly just Calvinists and fundamentalists who don’t believe that.

Look, I live in Italy, the country where Catholicism has its central base, and in all my life I’ve never heard anyone say that you send yourself to Hell thanks to your own guilt. I’ve always been taught that it’s God who decides who goes to Hell and who goes to Heaven, according to what the person has done in his life. Even during religion lessons at school (because yes, in Italy they teach religion at school), I have always been told that it’s God who decides that, not ourselves. Moreover, in the Book of Revelation it’s stated that at the end of time, it will be Jesus who will decide who can live in the Heavenly Jerusalem and who will have to perish in the Lake of Fire with Satan and his Demons. So, I’ve always assumed that mainstream Christianity teaches that it’s God who decides who deserves Heaven and who deserves Hell, not ourselves.

“Sometimes we must let go of our pride, and do what is requested to us.”
– Anakin Skywalker

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Fair enough. Certain ideas float around in popular Christianity that theologians in the same traditions wouldn’t take seriously.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which, as I’m sure you’re aware, is a pretty authoritative document, says this:

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

And:

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”

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RicOlie_2 said:

The belief that God doesn’t send people to hell, but that we send ourselves there, is exactly what mainstream Christianity believes (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and many varieties of Protestantism). It’s mostly just Calvinists and fundamentalists who don’t believe that.

God created hell for the devil and his angels, “Then he will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!” (Matthew 25:41) and He does send people there who refuse to believe (John 3:18), “Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell,” (Matthew 10:28), “And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15). In those cases yes the unbeliever paves there way to hell, but God does the sending / sentencing or casting into lake of fire at judgement.

“There is a tremor in the Force.”

“Give yourself to the dark side.” -Lord Vader

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Now looks to be as good a time as any to share this article:

How Proof-texting is Ineffective and Disrespects the Bible

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy

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Darth Tremor said:

RicOlie_2 said:

The belief that God doesn’t send people to hell, but that we send ourselves there, is exactly what mainstream Christianity believes (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and many varieties of Protestantism). It’s mostly just Calvinists and fundamentalists who don’t believe that.

God created hell for the devil and his angels, “Then he will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!” (Matthew 25:41) and He does send people there who refuse to believe (John 3:18), “Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell,” (Matthew 10:28), “And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15). In those cases yes the unbeliever paves there way to hell, but God does the sending / sentencing or casting into lake of fire at judgement.

Thank you for your reply. I think the verses you cited make a compelling point at first glance, but what was said in the above-posted article about prooftexting applies here.

There are countless ways in which the Bible attributes direct agency to God to emphasize His authority over all things. Another example is when Exodus alternately says that “God hardened the heart of Pharaoh” and “Pharaoh hardened his heart.” I don’t think there’s any reason to see those passages as saying different things–that sometimes it was God, and sometimes it was Pharaoh. Rather, Pharaoh’s heart hardened in response to God because of his own inner state and choices, just like some materials harden when exposed to the sun, while others melt (and it isn’t that the sun acts differently in the different cases).

Similarly, I interpret all of the passages you cite as figurative imagery, reflecting how the sinful soul is unable to endure the presence of God. It is almost impossible for us human beings to imagine condemning ourselves to eternal torment, so Jesus and Revelation speak of it in juridical terms, which would have been better understood by the people of that time.

The position of the Catholic Church is twofold: (1) we condemn ourselves to hell through our own actions, (2) God is our supreme judge.

My preferred theological interpretation of this (among several possible ones) is that in deliberately rejecting what is good (which is what a mortal sin is), we implicitly reject the source of goodness and the supreme Good (i.e., God). If we do not repent of that sin–in other words, if we do not come to see it as evil–we will hate whatever is incompatible with that sin. In coming face-to-face with God at our judgement, we will be unable to stand God’s presence and God will cut us off from that presence in accordance with our own choosing, so as not to override our decisions. Were God to simply change who we were or force us to be in His presence anyway, it would be an annihilation of ourselves–one might even say a kind of divine rape. That’s the summary version of it, anyway.

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“The Ploughshare Without Fear”: Remembering Martin Buber (1878-1965)

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy