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A Picture is worth a thousand words... — Page 2

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Originally posted by: jimbo
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Originally posted by: Spyder X
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Originally posted by: jimbo
The Two Towers used mostly live action sets. Attack of the Clones digitaled everything.


Which is exactly why The Two Towers had better special effects than Attack of the Clones.


Thats like giveing Dumb and Dumber best Special effects. Everything is real and live action. The award should go to best use of digital effects. Attack of the Clones uses digital effects everywhere even when its not needed. This is deserving of award.


using it were its not needed is not good use of Special effects
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Darn it, Sean Wookiee. You got to it first.

That's what I was going to say; The Two Towers *used* the digital effects better. Nearly every scene it that movie looks photo realistic, whereas much of Attck of the Clones looks fake.

There is so much CG in AotC that it's done sloppy. Especially the very rushed-looking army on Coruscant at the ending.

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Attack of the Clones uses digital effects everywhere even when its not needed. This is deserving of award.


Statements like this often make me wonder if Jimbo is for real or if he is just trying to parody idiots who think "the more CG the better."
I mean even the way the above two sentences are worded makes it sound like sarcasm.



On a more serious note: Why can't WETA do the effects for episode III?!??!?!

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why should WETA do them when ILM is doing a terrific job, and besides GL owns ILM thats why.
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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Luke's point is Lucas was so far ahead of the curve with his movies in the 80's, we all expected something revolutionary. Something that made the first time we saw matrix look like nothing. I wanted that and expected to be so blown away by effects that no other company could not only do technologically but hadn't even considered...this is his billion dollar flagship enterprise after all in the PT didn't deserve that what does? Well, Ep I was sub-par, Ep II was an improvement but definitely not on the level of the Two Towers armies or Gollum. Typically I distain CG when executed sloppily it take me out of movie and becomes to roger rabbit for me, mixing live action and cartoons. Scenes with watto and Jar-Jar irritate me. Don't get me wrong, I love CG alone, like Final Fantasy: Spirits Within blew my mind. But mixing, it just looks fake and fake takes me out of it. Not only that GL's cartoons are often obnoxiously voiced with slapstick personalities...Jar-Jar, Boss Nass, Dex, Watto, Roger-Roger Droids. Right? Tell me I am wrong. Even in Episode II when Anakin is riding those beasts in the field trying to impress padme, OMG, it looked like a class project a 10 year old with a computer could've done, hell Doom 3 looks better, a lot better. Models looked real because they were just that scaled-down models, painted with detail...I miss those days. And costumed creatures look better, the creatures in Aliens, the OT, etc. look better than most of this CG mess. Unless it is done with exceptional grahical power like Gollum, why do it? And don't you expect the best from this franchise, or at least you did at one time.
16 years I wait and this is what I get???
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To be honest, even after the 1997 SE releases I kind of expected an emphasis on story and effects that matched what had been seen before rather than trying to outdo them.

How blindly trusting I was.

I would rather have seen films that emulated the filmic style of the era in which they drew their inspirtation than these things that play like videogame cutscenes edited together.

If the time period seen in the OT was the late seventies and early eighties then the time period seen in the PT should have emulated the style of the forties and fifties. I'm not saying that Lucas should have restricted himself to 50 year old FX technology, although that would have been admirable but too much CGI is overuse of the technology.

CGI is a tool and should be made to serve the story, not vice versa.

The original films have never been about the effects for me, I always cared more for the story.

I guess Lucas did not.
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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Okay, I've got to de-lurk here because I can't stand another 6 years of ignorant fanboys bitching about ILMs work on TPM and AotC. The Matrix and the LotR movies get a DISTINCT handicap in their use of CG. Look again carefully at where they employ it. By FAR its in foggy, dark, or near dark conditions, and, largely with Gollum, shot with a shakey handheld style (the monolgue excepted). Lucas, on the other hand, has asked ILM to produce medium to close CG character work in full sun, over long steady, or tracking shots. I'm an animator, (working in Maya, mostly using Mental Ray to output), and I PROMISE you, these are MUCH more favorable conditions to try and composite work into. They also hide flaws in the digital work like anything. I'm not saying the work in LotR wasn't great, WETA did a terrific job with those films, I'm saying what you are looking at in the PT has to be considered in terms of what the shot is. WETA also got VERY fortunate in being able to MOCAP most of their characters (when they don't, like say, Treebeard, they end up with the same problems ILM does, only they're allowed to hide it in the dark), and had a terrific physical performer in Andy Serkiss. Sadly, no actor is like 500 pounds with four arms, so even minor characters, bipeds even, like Dex, had to be hand animated. This isn't as fluid as MOCAP (and there's a whole WORLD of debate about whether THAT'S a good thing or not...if you put Pixar's stuff up against live action footage, it would be OBVIOUSLY more stylized and cartoony than MOCAP...that's a GOOD thing), but it sure as hell beats the Chess pieces from ANH, or the TaunTaun work in Empire, and I'd put the walk cycle of the AT-TE up against the walkers any day. It's more nuanced, heavier, and complex. It plays better. I dearly love that OT work, but imagine for a second that ILM had done the CG shots it has in the PT using, say Stop or Go-Motion people seems to hold as superior to any and all CG. First, most of those shots wouldn't be possible. Second, you'd all be bitching and moaning about how dated and fake it looked.
As for everything being CG, how many times has it been said that already, ILM has constructed and used more miniatures and models on the PT by far, than on the OT films combined? Have you even LOOKED at the sheer number of masks and costumes produced for these shows? Did you see the model of the Geonosisan arena? It's the HUGE fucking red, minutely detailed thing, if you somehow missed it. How about the Pod Race stand? The effects directors and TDs on these films are aware that CG has a place, along with more traditional practical effects. Again, Lucas is tasking ILM with creating a MASSIVE number of shots on these films, with a mindboggling number of them being bright daylight and close to medium framing. Not to take anything away frokm WETA, but you simply cannot compare this stuff to distance night shots of orc armies and Gollum in the fog.
There is a huge degree of nostalgia for the films effects of the past which simply cannot be supported logically. We love them, but seriously, objectively look at the OT's effects. You KNOW those are models, YOU can PLAINLY SEE through the plastic eyes on that cantina mask, and there are VISIBLE poles holding up the speeder bikes! It's all fake, and it's all pretty damn obvious when you know anything about how it was done. "Why, it's a whole movie made from a cartoon!"? Why, it's a whole movie made out of toys! The audience has become more sophisticated (in terms of spooting effects work, anyways...best to leave the rest of that statement alone for now), and people, especially geeks, are LOOKING for the visual effects labour now, instead of enjoying the damn movies. Often CG is not perfect, but to deny that it is an evolution, and in most cases and improvement on what came before is stubborn and asinine.


Okay, well, I guess that's enough of a rambling vent....let the flaming begin.
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No flame and you're entitled your opinion and I respect you are an animator. Regardless if it looks cartoony, why do it? Sure LOTR may have been darker...ummm, it looks better right??? Everyone agrees. So what if Lucas wanted it in full sun zoomed up, if it can't look right don't do it. Period. That was my argument. It looks crappy no matter how much money is spent. And watto is in the dark shade and still looks like roger rabbit. It doesn't lend itself to realism. All the speeder scenes look fake with Dooku and anakin going to avenge his mother. And the scene in the field with anakin riding those beasts, how do you justify that? Its zoomed out and blurry, but still looks asanine. Again, if it can be done right, don't do it. Suuposedly now with this technology, Lucas is capable of realizing his true vision, funny how the originals of 1977-1983 looked more real to me. Models and costumes worked. Cartoon backgrounds and creatures do not. Many people claim this, am I wrong? Does it not get distracting having cartoons and people on the screen. I have heard no one beg for re-edits or say the CGI in LOTR was shotty and yet there is many with the PT that say this. So Peter Jackson worked with the best technology had and did what he had to do to make it look as photorealistic as possible, shadows, actors, what have you...why is that wrong? And is it justifiable to say Luca$ is working beyond his technology and give him that as an excuse. If it is in fact too hard, DON' DO It. I have not been in hiding. I have been here and will keep voicing the truth as I see it. I am being critical as a fan, a true fan. What I love has been vastly perverted, with Greedo shooting first, Jar-Jar, Han stepping on Cartoon Jabba's tail, Vader and a pink saber, Weeesa Free Celebrations, flying watto, with a silly voice and flies flying around him, and dex with a stupid voice pulling up his pants sliding down his ass, boss nass looking retarded, there is no excuse and I will stand by it. It wasn't executed right, their lines, voices and actions assigned to these characters further make them obnoxious. Did you like the two-headed announcer for the pod race? Did you like PEEEyOOSa lines or Jar-Jar sticking his tongue out, or doing a triple flip into the lake. Its stupid, it looks stupid sounds stupid and acts stupid and there is no comparable characters or scenes to these in the OT. I am here, and you may be right ILM may be better and it may have been more technically difficult...but again...WHY DO IT THEN. Work within the constraints given, be creative and make it look good. We all now he has near infinite resources. I still believe there are no excuses for what we were given. NONE. Fire Back.
16 years I wait and this is what I get???
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INv8r_ZIM I really like you
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Speaking of Gollum. Mr. Zim read some of Jimbo's "hate thread" and you might rethink this allegiance he has given you.
16 years I wait and this is what I get???
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Originally posted by: Obi-wonton
Speaking of Gollum. Mr. Zim read some of Jimbo's "hate thread" and you might rethink this allegiance he has given you.


Come on. Is my hatred of sick deviants going to follow me in every thread.
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Very cool to see people don't go berserk on these boards like elsewhere
Okay, to make a couple of counterpoints

1)To paraphrase an old friend "Part of the Saga these PT movies may be, but agree with the way Lucas is working on these new movie, I do not." My arguement is primarily with people pissing all over the effects work in the PT as being sub-par. The work is as good as anything you'll find out there right now. Directorial descisions are really out of ILM's hands. The director turns over a shot list, if it's Lucas, the director is unbelievably picky about EXACTLY how the shot has to look, and ILM has to try and deliver. End of story. Their work is NOT sub-par, they simply have been given extremely difficult shots to work on. Some stuff may not work quite as well as people would hope, but that's the nature of the buisness. The OT has about a billion little failures in FX work as well that blow the illusion. But we get past it because we love those movies.

2)Why do it? Well, I think we can agree that we'd all be pretty pissed if there wasn't any visual effects work in the films (yes yes, it MUST be in the service of the story, otherwise what's the damn point...but again, that's a directorial/writing decision...Larry Kasdan COME BACK TO US!!!!!). So the shots have to be done SOMEHOW. In all honesty, I think the results have been the better for blending CG and traditional practical stuff than if it had been done practical alone. Remember the faults those older techniques have, not just their strengths. Again, as time goes by, I think it's pretty clear we learn to tolerate, and even have a warm fuzzy soft spot for the weaknessess of certain techniques which allows us to see past their failings. Given time, I'm willing to bet people born and growing up in the '90s will feel much the same way about early CG. Maybe not, but it's my bet.

3)Just a side note, I would like to make it clear that I'm not about throwing CG everywhere just for the sake of having it. Nor do I believe in altering films 30 years after release, just to make them state of the art. Would I want to see Elsa and Lazlo board a CG plane, with composited regular sized actors for the airfield crew? Good God no. Did I need to see rontos bucking all over Mos Eisley? Dear Lord never.


Anyhoo...I'm off to work....should have my LD rip of ESB by the time I get home!!!! WhooHOO!!!!!!!!
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Well, Zim, that's a well-thought out post and I understand where you are coming from and maybe in 5 years it may all be a moot point in that the technology will certainly hit the point of photorealism, but I often find it distracting. And you're right ILM is not the evil entity here and yes Luca$ did make the calls so therefore it is on him I squarely face blame. And yeah while the OT did have some faults considering the technology, I never found them distracting. Even the blur under the land speeder, that hovering lines, like heat in the desert coming of the pavement or something. I don't know, Zim, they felt different and as I said not only is the animation cartoony, but the execution of the characters, is damn cartoony, the way the talk, what they do, its distracting from a serious film. Anakin, Obi-wan, Qui-Gon, Darth Maul, Padme and Palpatine I most certainly will take over Dex, Watto, Jar-Jar, Roger-roger robots and those silly beasts at the "love picnic".

BTW, this is Jimbo...and yes it will follow you. Hate has a way of doing that. From one Christian to one that claims it, well Jimbo...You reap what you sew is from the Bible (paraphrase- what you put out there comes back to you).

Jimbo's Hate thread
16 years I wait and this is what I get???
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Just because 1980 models may not have looked as good, doesn't mean they can't do creative things in 2004 using real-time models. Also, I agree with Obi-Wonton about LOTR's effects. Yes, they are foggy and shadowy, but this is done on purpose to hide the flaws. I can live with that. I'll take mediocre effects that look great because of the darkened contrast over good effects that look poor because they are in a bright scene.

Personally, I hate AOTC. There are many reasons, but I will concentrate on my unhappiness with the effects decisions for the sake of the current discussion. First off, I think the use of the unproven hd camera actually made the effects look worse. The actors did not blend in the with the digital backrounds AT ALL. Every scene with a digital backround looked fake. It looked like you had actors sitting in an empty room and then had the backround penciled in behind them. And again, the HD camera actually enhanced the CGI flaws, instead of hiding them like the more modest WETA effects.

Second, there are just way too many effects. I think Lucas is a dangerous combination of arrogant and lazy. He wanted to wow us with the 3000 digital effects when in fact I found them marginal at best (not to mention how the script got sacrificed because of it). I can understand some CGI (it's Star Wars after all)...creating some CGI aliens, and CGI'ing environments that couldn't be realistically created. I know it's not possible to create a full scale geonosian arena. But CGI'ing the damn floor in the Jedi temple?!?!? CGI'ing Padme's apartment?!?!? I find that the epitome of ridiculous. The movie 'Aliens' cost 18 million to make, and the actual sets and props were awesome. I know there's inflation when it comes to making movies, but even if you multiplied that budget by a factor of 4 because of inflation, that's still well below what it cost to make AOTC. Imagine AOTC with real sets! And actual humans in the Clone costumes! And a story to boot! All while staying within the estimated budget.
40,000 million notches away
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Well put brother. That's exactly what I am talking about. Actually I think the arena scene in ATOC could've been done more in reality...Gladiator did not look cartoony and they did a huge arena with some CG and models and real locations. Aliens I had mentioned before as well with awesome models/modest effects that worked. Troy looked cool with all of the ships sailing towards Troy despite being CG. CG can improve a scene if not done beyond looking somewhat realistic and knowing the boundries of the present technology. Good post and interesting though, windexed.
16 years I wait and this is what I get???
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Originally posted by: Obi-wonton
Well put brother. That's exactly what I am talking about. Actually I think the arena scene in ATOC could've been done more in reality...Gladiator did not look cartoony and they did a huge arena with some CG and models and real locations. Aliens I had mentioned before as well with awesome models/modest effects that worked. Troy looked cool with all of the ships sailing towards Troy despite being CG. CG can improve a scene if not done beyond looking somewhat realistic and knowing the boundries of the present technology. Good post and interesting though, windexed.


I never saw the actual Troy movie, but when my friends and I saw all of the CGI boats in the trailer, we laughed out loud in the theaters. Your other examples are good ones in using special effects, but I don't think that particular part in Troy was good use of CG.
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i think one thing that Lucas should stay away from is CG characters... ie. Watto, Jar Jar, Dex, Boss Nass....
even though they aren't human you just cant recreate the realism of some of their movements or facial expressions...
i dont mind Lucas using his CG for scenery just as long as he doesn't take it to far... even for space battles is completely understandable....
but when there is dialogue and acting going on during a scene... i find he should stay away from it...
he uses it in a way where we are taken away from the actors performances and simply looking at all the eye candy...
just my opinion on things...

by they way WELCOME TO THE BOARDS INv8r_ZIM!
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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Actually, that's a great point Luke. The CG in space or some of the scenery doesn't bother me much, when its not mixed with real scenes or live actor...it has continuity and is culpable. It's with live actors in a real set that CG characters not done as well as Gollum, become a nuisance. It's just not buyable for me. I never thought that with Chewie or R2 or 3po or Greedo, etc. That cartoon or real film like scenes with Jar-Jar or live actors over cartoon like Anakin's picnic beast ride just don't sit right. Space battles it's cool for CG and adding scenery like the fleet of boats in Troy (I liked most of those scenes Mio I thought the number added dramatic power, though one scene did look a little off), and doing the Clone Army or the Number of robots in I,Robot in the warehouse, that's cool for CG. But cartoony characters, like I keep saying it's too Roger rabbit for me. Hardly a serious, deep, dark space epic.
16 years I wait and this is what I get???
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Originally posted by: Luke Skywalker
i think one thing that Lucas should stay away from is CG characters... ie. Watto, Jar Jar, Dex, Boss Nass....
even though they aren't human you just cant recreate the realism of some of their movements or facial expressions...
i dont mind Lucas using his CG for scenery just as long as he doesn't take it to far... even for space battles is completely understandable....
but when there is dialogue and acting going on during a scene... i find he should stay away from it...
he uses it in a way where we are taken away from the actors performances and simply looking at all the eye candy...
just my opinion on things...

by they way WELCOME TO THE BOARDS INv8r_ZIM!


Dude I enjoyed Watto and Dex. I am sure I wasn't the only one. Really I don't want to see an actor talk to some guy in a mask.
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So are you saying Jimbo, you prefer watto and dex to Stormtroopers and Darth Vader...check your head.
16 years I wait and this is what I get???
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Originally posted by: Obi-wonton
So are you saying Jimbo, you prefer watto and dex to Stormtroopers and Darth Vader...check your head.


First of all the Stormtroopers are not characters. They are just clone servants. Also no Vader is the coolest. He is definutly the best Star Wars villian so far. Then again Grevious is looking awsome he just might be better.