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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 152

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idir_hh said:

I like it very much, something character driven, fresh and new that respects what came before and builds upon it, not the lazy remake we got.

I could critique TROS all day, but I definitely wouldn’t call it a remake. The similarities are actually pretty minimal (though noticeable).

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I would argue that the climax of TROS is carbon copy of ROTJ with a different paint job.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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idir_hh said:

I would argue that the climax of TROS is carbon copy of ROTJ with a different paint job.

I mean, first of all that’s basically the only similarity, so I don’t know how you can reasonably say the whole thing is a remake, you know that’s not true. Second, yeah it’s pretty similar, but “carbon copy”? Come on. There are some significant variations.

Regardless, it’s a lazy critique. Just because it’s similar doesn’t make it bad. It all comes down to execution.

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RogueLeader said:

Apparently AV Club is corroborating it as well.

Slashfilm too I believe. What is it with this movie and leaks?

Okay having read both breakdowns (I hope the script leaks so I can just read that), here’s how I feel…

Pros:

  • Rey Nobody.
  • Apparently a major role for Rose.
  • Luke haunts Kylo.
  • Palpatine isn’t back.
  • Return to Coruscant Jedi temple.
  • Rey trying to move beyond the Jedi teachings.
  • Weird Force stuff.

Neutral:

  • Rey becomes a grey Jedi. Would come down to execution.
  • Rey getting blinded. Same.
  • Kylo finds a holocron with Palpatine contingency mission for Vader to find his master.
  • Most of the other things described. Basic SW stuff, hard to say.

Cons:

  • Kylo Ren in general. Basically goes full evil. Apparently at the last minute he saves Rey which actually kind of makes it worse. Trash.
  • Rey and Poe romance. Lame.
  • Minimal Leia presence, and this is before Carrie’s death.
  • Kylo killed Rey’s parents. Awful.

It’s a tough decision, but I’ll go with TROS. Kylo gets shafted in this one. Granted, Rey gets shafted in TROS, but it’s hard to know for sure if this script actually treats her significantly better.

That said, it’s important to remember this is just one draft of an ever-changing script. There would likely have been drafts before this one, and definitely after as well.

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I’ve been reading some more details regarding the leaked draft (which I now see is being reported on by credible sources as being real). I’m starting to warm up to it, and can even see why CT and DC still got writing credit (mustafar sequence, etc.), but overall, I still prefer the movie we actually got by a landslide!

Don’t get me wrong, there are some thing from this draft I do actually prefer (double-bladed blue saber, etc.), but there are still just too many things I don’t like at all (damarey, monster-face kylo, etc.).

http://henrynsilva.blogspot.com/2023/10/full-circle-order-new-way-to-watch-star.html?m=1

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Bare in mind it was written in 2016 so it was probably a rough draft that could have been improved in further rewrites.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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Collider is backing it up now too.

I pretty much agree with you, Dom. There are obviously some pretty cool things in both Trevorrow’s script, but some pretty bad stuff too. Same for TROS. Something inbetween the two may have been nice.

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DominicCobb said:

idir_hh said:

I would argue that the climax of TROS is carbon copy of ROTJ with a different paint job.

I mean, first of all that’s basically the only similarity, so I don’t know how you can reasonably say the whole thing is a remake, you know that’s not true. Second, yeah it’s pretty similar, but “carbon copy”? Come on. There are some significant variations.

Regardless, it’s a lazy critique. Just because it’s similar doesn’t make it bad. It all comes down to execution.

I concede that the first half of TROS was mostly its own thing but when the climax is the same as the previous supposed ending to the saga. I can’t see how it can’t be considered a soft remake if you remove all the austhetic fluff and focus on the plot.

  • Palpatine (Big Bad) is about to unleash his planet killing weapons while he threatens the heroine to join the dark side or her friends die.
  • The heroine watches helplessly at the battle raging in the sky.
  • Planet destroying weapons destroyed after the lead star destroyer crashes down to the surface and explodes.
  • Villain is redeamed by saving the heroine from death , then dies himself shortly after.
  • Heroes regroup to celebrate and hug
  • Montage of planets around the galaxy.

Sounds like a movie we saw 30 years ago.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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He was on the same page with Colin concerning Luke’s role in the film.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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idir_hh said:

DominicCobb said:

idir_hh said:

I would argue that the climax of TROS is carbon copy of ROTJ with a different paint job.

I mean, first of all that’s basically the only similarity, so I don’t know how you can reasonably say the whole thing is a remake, you know that’s not true. Second, yeah it’s pretty similar, but “carbon copy”? Come on. There are some significant variations.

Regardless, it’s a lazy critique. Just because it’s similar doesn’t make it bad. It all comes down to execution.

I concede that the first half of TROS was mostly its own thing but when the climax is the same as the supposed ending we got 30 years ago I can’t see how it can’t be considered a soft remake if you remove all the austhetic fluff and focus on the plot.

  • Palpatine (Big Bad) is about to unleash his planet killing weapons while he threatens the heroe with destroying her friends as she watches helplessly at the battle raging in the sky.
  • Planet destroying weapons destroyed after the head star destroyer crashes down and explodes.
  • Villain is redeamed by saving the heroe from death , then dies himself shortly after.
  • Heroes regroup to celebrate and hug
  • Montage of planets around the galaxy.

We’re on a Star Wars message board. I think it’s safe to say that we all noticed the similarities upon first watch. Running them down isn’t furthering your argument. And I think you need to look up the word “remake.” Just because 20 minutes of a movie follow the same beats doesn’t make the whole 2hr 20m movie a “remake.”

More importantly “remove all the aesthetic fluff and focus on the plot” is a terrible way to look at it. Plot is not story. And even then some of the points you’ve made are so broad it’s ridiculous. And in some cases you’re even changing what happened to fit your argument. Ben’s ‘redemption’ comes way before he saves Rey from death.

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DominicCobb said:
And in some cases you’re even changing what happened to fit your argument. Ben’s ‘redemption’ comes way before he saves Rey from death.

Conversing with a memory of his father (in his mind) then throwing his lightsaber away is Not redemption, even if he felt guilty and regretful.

Redemption is earned through penance and sacrifice which I would argue he only achieved at the end my giving his life for Rey, ala Vader.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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idir_hh said:

DominicCobb said:
And in some cases you’re even changing what happened to fit your argument. Ben’s ‘redemption’ comes way before he saves Rey from death.

Conversing with a memory of his father (in his mind) then throwing his lightsaber away is Not redemption, even if he felt guilty and regretful.

Redemption is earned through penance and sacrifice which I would argue he achieved at the end my giving his life for Rey, ala Vader.

I get what you’re saying and I don’t disagree, but for all intents and purposes the movie treats him like a good guy from that point on (“Kylo Ren is dead. My son is alive.”). His part in the climax is completely different than Vader’s, besides the mere fact that he sacrifices himself (which is done completely differently).

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DominicCobb said:
I get what you’re saying and I don’t disagree, but for all intents and purposes the movie treats him like a good guy from that point on (“Kylo Ren is dead. My son is alive.”). His part in the climax is completely different than Vader’s, besides the mere fact that he sacrifices himself (which is done completely differently).

I get that the specifics are done differently but it’s ultimately the same story.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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idir_hh said:

DominicCobb said:
I get what you’re saying and I don’t disagree, but for all intents and purposes the movie treats him like a good guy from that point on (“Kylo Ren is dead. My son is alive.”). His part in the climax is completely different than Vader’s, besides the mere fact that he sacrifices himself (which is done completely differently).

I get that the specifics are done differently but it’s ultimately the same story.

Plot =/= story.

Specifics are far more important than broad beats.

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I disagree, a story is like looking at a finished picture puzzle, the specifics are the pieces that make the puzzle, if you have two puzzles with different pieces but end up with the same picture the difference becomes irrelevant.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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idir_hh said:

I disagree, a story is like looking at a finished picture puzzle, the specifics are the pieces that make the puzzle, if you have two puzzles with different pieces but end up with the same picture it’s really irrelevant that the pieces were different.

But what you’re describing is that the whole picture is just the plot. That’s silly. The picture would be the story. The plot would just be what the shapes are that put the pieces together. But it’s a bad analogy.

Think of it more like a building. The plot is just the foundation. It’s what you build on top of that that really matters.

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DominicCobb said:

idir_hh said:

I disagree, a story is like looking at a finished picture puzzle, the specifics are the pieces that make the puzzle, if you have two puzzles with different pieces but end up with the same picture it’s really irrelevant that the pieces were different.

But what you’re describing is that the whole picture is just the plot. That’s silly. The picture would be the story. The plot would just be what the shapes are that put the pieces together. But it’s a bad analogy.

Think of it more like a building. The plot is just the foundation. It’s what you build on top of that that really matters.

So would be up for episodes 10, 11 and 12 that would culminate with the protagonist defeating Palpatine once again? Also, bear in mind that this hypothetical protagonist is an offspring of a dark figure from the past. Snoke’s nephew, perhaps. Or Dooku’s great-granddaughter.

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StarkillerAG said:

If you like this movie that’s fine, I’m not trying to take that away from you. But you shouldn’t dismiss the complaints of people who don’t like the movie by saying that they’re nitpicking and biased, or that most people like it, or that the movie actually makes complete sense in a way the critics just don’t understand. I don’t have a problem with people liking this movie, I have a problem with people who like the movie getting defensive when someone criticizes it. If you can just accept that some people have a different opinion than you, you’ll be a lot happier in life.

I’m fine with people not liking it. But a great many critics (and most specifically the pro-critics on RT) were nitpicking in ridiculous ways. I like the more thoughtful and detailed comments here, but sometimes I can tell someone just didn’t like it and is trying to figure out why. And sometimes the complaints are ones that could equally be leveled at any of the Star Wars movies. Plus I don’t think any of this film contradicts or retconns any of TLJ’s ending. It does contradict a great deal of that film, but so does that film’s ending. A great many characters in that film start off being completely wrong and only Kylo ends the film that way. But a great many people have taken those wrong avenues to be the purpose of the film and it isn’t. TLJ is about getting on the correct path. Rey, Luke, Poe, Finn, and Rose all have to learn this. Abrams got that and carried on from where the characters ended the last film. He was a producer of that film after all, so he has been involved in every aspect of all three films. So yea, I love the film and I do question some critiques of it because they run very counter to my experience with it. When someone says a film doesn’t do something that I clearly remember it doing, I’m going to point it out.

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DominicCobb said:

idir_hh said:

I disagree, a story is like looking at a finished picture puzzle, the specifics are the pieces that make the puzzle, if you have two puzzles with different pieces but end up with the same picture it’s really irrelevant that the pieces were different.

But what you’re describing is that the whole picture is just the plot. That’s silly. The picture would be the story. The plot would just be what the shapes are that put the pieces together. But it’s a bad analogy.

Think of it more like a building. The plot is just the foundation. It’s what you build on top of that that really matters.

Um… a story is the overall chain of events. A lot of real stories can be boring. You could make a movie about someone’s day at work and if you pick a normal day the movie would be boring. Plot is the literary device that takes a story and elevates it to something special. The plot is the specific chain of events (sometimes a web of events if you have multiple characters) with one thing leading to another. Plot would be using flashbacks to take that otherwise boring seeming day and making it something unusual. For Star Wars, the crawl sets up the story and the plot. You can also think of story as timeline and plot as how the scene connect. Story tells you someone died, plot tells you how and gives you the emotional impact.

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yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

idir_hh said:

I disagree, a story is like looking at a finished picture puzzle, the specifics are the pieces that make the puzzle, if you have two puzzles with different pieces but end up with the same picture it’s really irrelevant that the pieces were different.

But what you’re describing is that the whole picture is just the plot. That’s silly. The picture would be the story. The plot would just be what the shapes are that put the pieces together. But it’s a bad analogy.

Think of it more like a building. The plot is just the foundation. It’s what you build on top of that that really matters.

Um… a story is the overall chain of events. A lot of real stories can be boring. You could make a movie about someone’s day at work and if you pick a normal day the movie would be boring. Plot is the literary device that takes a story and elevates it to something special. The plot is the specific chain of events (sometimes a web of events if you have multiple characters) with one thing leading to another. Plot would be using flashbacks to take that otherwise boring seeming day and making it something unusual. For Star Wars, the crawl sets up the story and the plot. You can also think of story as timeline and plot as how the scene connect. Story tells you someone died, plot tells you how and gives you the emotional impact.

Nope.

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Plot isn’t a story in the same way a skeleton isn’t a soul.

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yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

idir_hh said:

I disagree, a story is like looking at a finished picture puzzle, the specifics are the pieces that make the puzzle, if you have two puzzles with different pieces but end up with the same picture it’s really irrelevant that the pieces were different.

But what you’re describing is that the whole picture is just the plot. That’s silly. The picture would be the story. The plot would just be what the shapes are that put the pieces together. But it’s a bad analogy.

Think of it more like a building. The plot is just the foundation. It’s what you build on top of that that really matters.

Um… a story is the overall chain of events. A lot of real stories can be boring. You could make a movie about someone’s day at work and if you pick a normal day the movie would be boring.

Most movies come down to executions. I think you could make an interesting movie about your day at work. The script would be boring, but if you create good tension through editing and hire some good actors, it would make for an engaging movie.

My biggest issue with CT as Episode 9 director is this. He is not the best at executions (whereas JJ very much, love it or hate it TROS is at the very least exciting to watch brainlessly). Jurassic World should be engaging, for instance, but it was more a boring action movie than action/horror like it’s predecessors. And apparently he made a really bad movie after JW, which I haven’t seen. So I don’t really trust him on that part.

Maul- A Star Wars Story