Well, they also thought starting TFA with a shot of Luke’s severed hand holding Anakin’s lightsaber drifting in space for a not insignificant amount of time, so…
Very true, and from what I understand that would have turned into a flashback montage of sorts. Funny how each film in the ST originally had tradition breaking openings and ended up ditching them - and TLJ’s would have been the least radical!
I mean JJ was originally going to start TFA with a severed hand floating through space so anything’s possible. I guess they thought it would get people attention. [EDIT: Wrote this before I saw Ash’s comment!]
Speaking of the flashback, apparently they were training on the same planet the Resistance Base is at, Ajan Kloss. But I’m like, why couldn’t it have been Yavin IV? At least Luke and Leia have a connection to Yavin, plus it would be a nice homage to Luke’s academy in the EU being on Yavin IV. You could start the flashback with an establishing shot of Yavin IV, and then add a bit of red hue to the scene perhaps to suggest the “planet-light” of the red gas giant. I guess it doesn’t add anything besides slowing the film down a little by adding an extra shot. Honestly I wouldn’t mind if the whole flashback was just cut, or at the very least, the lines about Leia’s vision were cut or trimmed.
Back to the helmet stuff. What if you modified that scene to change Kylo’s motivation to touch the helmet? Maybe Kylo is wanting to see if what Palpatine told him was true, and we can get a different kind of “force-back”. Maybe instead of random events, we could get glimpses that hint at how Palpatine survived and how it connects to the helmet (through object possession perhaps). Maybe Kylo could get glimpses of the Dark Side’s past (Palpatine) and the Dark Side’s future (Rey), and the intensity of this vision recombined their force bond.
Maybe it is really visceral for Kylo not only because it is providing backstory, but because he’s reliving how Palpatine manipulated him from a young age through Vader and Snoke. And maybe these strong feelings of isolation and loneliness Ben felt at that somehow reforges that bond with Rey, since those shared feelings are what made Rey and Ben relate to each other. So as Ben experiences these past memories, Rey experiences her own.
So to summarize, maybe Ben isn’t trying to use Vader’s helmet to somehow reconnect with Rey, but instead, he is trying to confirm what Palpatine told him, and the flood of painful memories and revelations inadvertently reconnects him with Rey, since those feelings are something they both shared. So not only could it be a more sympathetic angle for Ben to see how he was manipulated, but it could also give more clues as to how Palpatine survived.
I can only assume that the Vader helmet footage was originally meant to be placed before Kylo arrived at Palpatine’s Fortress? Maybe he heard Vader’s voice beckon him to find the source of Snoke’s power, only for Palpatine to reveal it was him all along?
I really dislike how the quick flashbacks were edited in this movie so I would just remove all of them, and remove Kylo’s appearance during Rey’s training because it only makes things confusing.
I mean JJ was originally going to start TFA with a severed hand floating through space so anything’s possible. I guess they thought it would get people attention. [EDIT: Wrote this before I saw Ash’s comment!]
Speaking of the flashback, apparently they were training on the same planet the Resistance Base is at, Ajan Kloss. But I’m like, why couldn’t it have been Yavin IV? At least Luke and Leia have a connection to Yavin, plus it would be a nice homage to Luke’s academy in the EU being on Yavin IV. You could start the flashback with an establishing shot of Yavin IV, and then add a bit of red hue to the scene perhaps to suggest the “planet-light” of the red gas giant. I guess it doesn’t add anything besides slowing the film down a little by adding an extra shot. Honestly I wouldn’t mind if the whole flashback was just cut, or at the very least, the lines about Leia’s vision were cut or trimmed.
Back to the helmet stuff. What if you modified that scene to change Kylo’s motivation to touch the helmet? Maybe Kylo is wanting to see if what Palpatine told him was true, and we can get a different kind of “force-back”. Maybe instead of random events, we could get glimpses that hint at how Palpatine survived and how it connects to the helmet (through object possession perhaps). Maybe Kylo could get glimpses of the Dark Side’s past (Palpatine) and the Dark Side’s future (Rey), and the intensity of this vision recombined their force bond.
Maybe it is really visceral for Kylo not only because it is providing backstory, but because he’s reliving how Palpatine manipulated him from a young age through Vader and Snoke. And maybe these strong feelings of isolation and loneliness Ben felt at that somehow reforges that bond with Rey, since those shared feelings are what made Rey and Ben relate to each other. So as Ben experiences these past memories, Rey experiences her own.
So to summarize, maybe Ben isn’t trying to use Vader’s helmet to somehow reconnect with Rey, but instead, he is trying to confirm what Palpatine told him, and the flood of painful memories and revelations inadvertently reconnects him with Rey, since those feelings are something they both shared. So not only could it be a more sympathetic angle for Ben to see how he was manipulated, but it could also give more clues as to how Palpatine survived.
It isn’t explicit that he’s reinstating the force bond, is it? That wasn’t how I took it and I assumed they might have had a few bonds in the meantime.
Those are some interesting ideas. There is definitely space there to get away with some fun editing stuff. I feel like you do have to be careful though, because the scene as is is already pretty confusing (which is why I’d want to simplify it). Your idea would seem to help explain why Vader’s mask is involved at all I suppose.
I really dislike how the quick flashbacks were edited in this movie so I would just remove all of them, and remove Kylo’s appearance during Rey’s training because it only makes things confusing.
I didn’t really care one way or another about the style of it, it seemed fair enough for what they supposedly were - force induced flashbacks and flashforwards. It’s definitely a little problematic when it comes to the latter however because we don’t know what we’re looking at in such quick flashes.
It’s definitely the first part in the movie where I was thinking wow the editing is all over the place. The way I envision my Rey Nobody edit I think I’d need to keep Kylo in there to watch the vision as well, but I’d probably want to restructure how it plays out. Maybe cut out seeing Kylo taking out the mask and touching it? So we see Rey, we see her have a vision, and then we see Kylo’s having it too? I guess the problem with that is I think we’re supposed to believe Kylo is what distracts her and makes her start destroying trees and whatnot. I think you could probably solve this by hearing his voice say something like “Rey, join me” and then Rey trips.
Could you potentially turn them into two separate scenes? One scene could be where Kylo is on his Star Destroyer, and he touches Vader’s helmet to confirm Palpatine’s claims and gain insight on how he survived, a look into the past.
Then Rey’s training montage would be separate, and Rey could have her own brief vision, maybe a brief glimpse into the future.
Maybe that could be another way to help slow the film down. Either way, I think there might be some flexibility as far as how this scene could be edited.
Could you potentially turn them into two separate scenes? One scene could be where Kylo is on his Star Destroyer, and he touches Vader’s helmet to confirm Palpatine’s claims and gain insight on how he survived, a look into the past.
Then Rey’s training montage would be separate, and Rey could have her own brief vision, maybe a brief glimpse into the future.Maybe that could be another way to help slow the film down. Either way, I think there might be some flexibility as far as how this scene could be edited.
You probably could, it’d depend on your intentions I suppose. This whole section of the film has clearly been heavily edited and reedited. So there’s a lot of room for changes, though unfortunately because it’s for the most part too short (rather than too long) there’s only so much we can do. Uncomplicating things and straightening things out could certainly help.
I would have Kylo commune with the helmet before seeing Palatine - this way, it breaks up the initial pace just slightly, and underscores the fact that his life has been driven by voices in his head. This gives us an immediate payoff, so badly needed.
Start the Kylo attack at the beginning with the widest shot of him running after people. Star Wars is supposed to start with GOOD and BAD established clearly. By starting with him chasing them down, you know there’s no other motivation. Remove the backslide 😑
Move Lando’s Got a bad feeling about this to the end of that scene after they leave and he returns to the window.
Remove Ren’s His “granddaughter” is enough.
Swap Palpatine’s “your grandfather, Darth Vader” to “Darth Vader, your grandfather”
Trim 3PO throughout. Keep “you did not mention me, but I am fine” line in. Missed opportunity for 3PO to learn about Leia.
I missed the 16 hours thing too. I remember only 8 hours left 🤷🏼♂️
Leia’s scenes fall squarely on the writers. All of Rey’s dialogue in them was just poorly written.
Just remove Luke’s “I was wrong”. The line drips with the “subtle” message: “Ignore the last movie.”
Preferred Saga:
1/2: Hal9000
3: L8wrtr
4/5: Adywan
6-9: Hal9000
The Visual Dictionary refers ad nauseum to the ‘Sith Eternal’ as the faction who are the bad guys in this movie and who man the Final Order’s star destroyers. Did I miss it or is there no actual mention of the Sith Eternal in the movie? Were they all the people watching Rey and Palpatine? Exegol felt like an old abandoned tomb or something but apparently loads of fairly regular humans lived there, living and dying and having kids all just to one day man Palpatine’s Star Destroyers. Might be nice to put that Sith symbol in earlier films or in any way whatsoever indicate there is an entire planet’s worth of people loyal to the Sith besides the two Darths.
EDIT: Lando’s message is in Star Tours. None of this footage ever comes out in fanedit quality does it?
Any ideas for how to make Palpatine’s motivations not flip flop two or three times?
I posted this on Hal’s thread, should have put it here:
A big picture fix that is improbable but not impossible would be tweaking a few lines about Palp’s resurrection to reframe him as Sith Incarnate, rather than Palp Alive again. In other words, the reason he was brought back was not his own power (he still dies in ROTJ), but the power of the Sith/Dark Side and he operates now as little more than a puppet of the Sith spirits. It is implied enough in the movie (that he was a corpse not a person); I wish he spoke more in terms of “we” like Gollum to hit that home.
The weird thing is, isn’t this the implication from the film? That there is one Sith spirit that possesses one host after the other? I think it is kind of muddied by making Rey a Palpatine and focusing on his bloodline, and trying to say the saga is about the Skywalkers vs the Palpatines. Sheev Palpatine is merely one stepping stone for the past millennia of Sith Lords.
I actually think the idea of replacing instances of “I” with “we” is a simple idea that would help remind the audience of that concept. You just would have to find a good sample of him saying we. I think Palpatine calls Rey “weak” at one point. Maybe that could fit, not sure.
Sorry, late to reply; yeah, like I said the film implies it but fails to lean heavily on the imagery, when Star Wars usually makes it very clear - as usual, JJ tells you about everything you need to know, just tucked away in throwaway lines rather than meaningful themes. I think they could have saved a lot of confusion and anger when bringing Palp back, if they made it clear he still died in ROTJ but is here as a corpse based on the sheer will of the Sith, where ultimately Palp’s bloodline is the Sith and Rey’s is the Jedi, not actual bloodline.
Something I’ve been thinking about is Rey’s parents already chose to be “good” counter to their bloodline, minimizing the big deal of Rey doing the same. It would be interesting if you were able to change the flashback/exposition of her parents to portray them as junk traders or low life people; this would maintain the reveal of TLJ and make Rey’s choice a bigger deal.
Interesting thoughts. Here is one interpretation to chew on: When Palpatine “died”, the persona of Sheev Palpatine sort of died on the Death Star, but the spirit survived. It is almost like the shell of Palpatine was shed, and what we had left was this Sith incarnate. Technically it is the same entity we knew from the PT and OT, but it no longer tries to hide its true persona. It definitely would make his return creepier than this one dude just still being alive somehow.
I’m kind of curious if this Sith incarnate is the spirit of Darth Bane passed down from vessel to vessel, or with each new host the Sith spirit becomes a collective consciousness.
Interesting thoughts. Here is one interpretation to chew on: When Palpatine “died”, the persona of Sheev Palpatine sort of died on the Death Star, but the spirit survived. It is almost like the shell of Palpatine was shed, and what we had left was this Sith incarnate. Technically it is the same entity we knew from the PT and OT, but it no longer tries to hide its true persona. It definitely would make his return creepier than this one dude just still being alive somehow.
I’m kind of curious if this Sith incarnate is the spirit of Darth Bane passed down from vessel to vessel, or with each new host the Sith spirit becomes a collective consciousness.
My take was the latter; I understood the hooded figures in citadel to be spectating Sith spirits who dwelt within Palp, though apparently I am wrong. According to wookiepiedia those were the Sith cultists? I thought the contrast was the show of arrogant flaunting of power of the sith vs the minimal but more powerful incarnation of the Jedi to Rey.
Yeah, I think the hooded spectators were just regular people who worshipped the Sith.
It’s occurred to me to make Rey Luke’s daughter right from the get-go.
I like having a prologue in my reedits, so my prologue would be partly a montage of the post-OT transition to the current state of affairs, followed immediately by the Knights of Ren destroying Luke’s Jedi school.
The ensuing crawl would give a succinct verbal explanation to the prior visuals, including mentioning the death of Luke’s wife, the fact that one of the academy survivors is his daughter Rey, and that Kylo Ren is Han and Leia’s son. The crawl would also preface Poe, Rey, Han and Chewie being sent on a mission to Jakku to recruit new Force-users before Ren can get to them. That’s what they’re hunting - not a map to Luke.
So all original scenes involving Rey’s parentage would be deleted. Calling herself “Rey Skywalker” then makes perfect sense, and she’s no longer a Mary Sue because her dad’s been training her this whole time.
And TFA and TLJ would be mashed together. Thematically the sequels would then focus more on Ben’s struggle. He redeems himself by helping Ray defeat Palpatine.
I wonder if it would be possible (or even a good idea) to change the twist into that Rey was a clone made by Palpatine to give his soul a new body. Might be able to be accomplished by adding a few Rey bodies in the tanks with the Snoke bodies.
Keeps the same energy as her being his granddaughter without having the question of who the hell did Palpatine hook up with. Also keeps continuity that her parents were “nobody”.
I wonder if it would be possible (or even a good idea) to change the twist into that Rey was a clone made by Palpatine to give his soul a new body. Might be able to be accomplished by adding a few Rey bodies in the tanks with the Snoke bodies.
Keeps the same energy as her being his granddaughter without having the question of who the hell did Palpatine hook up with. Also keeps continuity that her parents were “nobody”.
Rey being a clone would’ve been a far, far better plot point than her just being “a Palpatine.” It was really a stretch how they had to make Rey’s parents still be “nobody” yet still explain the granfather link.
In fact, having the Dark Side vision Rey actually be real and be a clone would’ve been far more interesting, too. Probably too hard to do with current VFX editing, though.
Honestly that still would have sucked shit. I’m not sure in what way it would have been better.
Honestly that still would have sucked shit. I’m not sure in what way it would have been better.
No confusion as to when Palpatine procreated and with whom? The previous two movies setting up that Rey is “nobody”. Her “cave vision” seeing a bunch if duplicates of herself would actually make sense instead of being imagery for imagery sake?
I admit it’s not the most spectacular idea, but it at least makes more sense than what we got.
Honestly that still would have sucked shit. I’m not sure in what way it would have been better.
No confusion as to when Palpatine procreated and with whom?
That’s hardly the worst part about her being his granddaughter.
The previous two movies setting up that Rey is “nobody”.
Part of the point of her being “nobody” is her being “random.” If she was created as a clone of Palpatine, then thematically you’re left in essentially the same spot as her being his granddaughter.
Her “cave vision” seeing a bunch if duplicates of herself would actually make sense instead of being imagery for imagery sake?
It’s not imagery for imagery’s sake, it’s playing on the idea of identity (a nod to Citizen Kane), her looking herself in the mirror, etc. If she was a clone that’d be a terribly literal outcome, no? Like if Luke was a clone of Vader and that’s why he saw himself under the mask.
I admit it’s not the most spectacular idea, but it at least makes more sense than what we got.
Truthfully it’d probably raise more questions (if she’s a clone of Palpatine why is she a she? Why is she in particular important if there are others? Why does she have parents?) and I have no idea how you’d accomplish it.
I wasn’t super crazy about them bringing back Kylo Ren’s helmet in this film (although I really dig the cracked look), it actually might end up being a godsend for us to play with Kylo’s dialogue and chracter motivation for the first two acts of the film.
I still am not 100% sure what will be doable until the home release, but I am curious about how far we can change Kylo Ren’s motivations in TROS. Kylo’s whole, “We both have darkness, join me on the dark side” is arguably pretty basic and not really a fresh idea, and I wonder if we can make it more interesting.
What if, instead of just wanting Rey to join him on the dark side of the Force, he wants to prevent Rey from finding Exogol and trying to kill Palpatine? After realizing how Palpatine has been manipulating him all these years, he wants to prevent Rey from having the same fate. Kylo may have also seen this vision of Dark Rey, but instead of it appealing to him like he thought, he realizes he doesn’t want Rey to share his fate.
For example, maybe we can change the line, “You can’t go back to her [Leia], just like I can’t” to, “You can go back to her, but I can’t” (This is an unmasked line but maybe it could still be altered naturally)
So the dilemma for Rey is that she feels that her role as the last Jedi means she has to face Palpatine, the last Sith, and kill him. But Kylo Ren is preventing that, so he is another obstacle that she must face to fulfill her destiny. Maybe Palpatine’s motivation could be changed to, “Bring me the last Jedi, and I will give you the fleet.” Maybe Palpatine’s plan from the beginning is to get them both in front of them to drain their life force. But instead of bringing Rey to him, Kylo tries to prevent her from finding a way there.
I think this might also help make Kylo seem a little more intelligent than he is in the theatrical. Even though Kylo doesn’t want to kill Rey, like Palpatine told him, it appears like he is still doing what Palpatine wants. In this version, it might seem like Kylo Ren is already suspicious of the extent of Palpatine’s power and him potentially being able to possess others, which is why he doesn’t immediately kill him when they meet. He wants to figure out how he can outsmart Palpatine, but if Rey finds the other Wayfinder she would be falling into his trap. So instead of saying, “The only way you’ll reach Palpatine is through me”, he just destroys the Wayfinder.
I guess part of my motivation to pursue this idea is that some people felt Kylo’s turn to the light felt rather sudden. Even ROTJ makes Vader appear rather sad and regretful when speaking to Luke, “It is too late for me, son”, which sets up his turn later in the film. Having Kylo not wanting Rey to follow the same fate as he did might help make his character more sympathetic and three-dimensional, as well as make their final kiss more natural, since Kylo/Ben was trying to protect her the whole film.
Bonus thought: I found an Adam Driver line from This is Where I Leave You where he says to Tina Fey’s character, “You’re the voice in my head.” I feel like this would be an interesting thing for him to say to Rey, since it would play well against Palpatine telling him he has been every voice he’s ever heard inside his head. Him saying something like this would be like him rejecting the destiny the Emperor’s has tried make him for one that involves Rey, which would parallel Rey’s own journey to forge her own destiny. I guess what I’m trying to say is that all this would help make Kylo/Ben more actively pursuing his own motivations instead of anyone else’s.
Those are very fascinating points Rogue, very interesting. Both for motivational reasons, but also a clearer plot. It was confusing regarding the Emperor’s motives. It was first “Kill Rey” to “Nah, I wanted you here.” Granted, one could argue Palps was making multiple contingency plans since … well, the ultimate goal is to having someone strike him down to move on … so who cares?
Anyway, the idea above is fascinating and if it could be done seamlessly would be a neat idea to pursue. We do have an example of line manipulation that worked well with Hal’s TFA Restructured with Finn, it was done perfectly!
“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”
I don’t dislike TROS, in fact I really enjoyed the feel of it tonally. However it’s the first SW movie I’ve come out from the first viewing and immediately had things that I could pick apart/question and wish there was more
My primary issue with the whole thing is that, when so many larger ‘A’ plotlines from the overall series needed further exploration or resolving why the movie wasted so much of it’s precious runtime introducing new ‘B’ plotlines that it didn’t even resolve within the movie itself.
As a result the whole movie felt rushed and incomplete. Not BAD just hugely…unsatisfying?
We could go into the ‘why’s’ of it forever, but the fact remains that we got what we got and so as a a SW Fan edit community what can we collectively come up with to hopefully improve upon it?
For me, most of my hope is resting on what deleted or extended scenes we get on the home release, as I don’t think the main problems with the movie are found in what is in the movie, it’s in what isnt’t??
I’d love to be more constructive in what ideas I could throw out to the talented editors out there, but without a sniff of what deleted scenes might get released it’s very hard to do, and I’d be extremely reluctant to suggest making more cuts bar the odd line here or there.
All/most references to Fin’s apparent ‘force sensitivity’ and especially his attempts to confide in Rey are an obvious one I suppose as it’s all goes nowhere.
I don’t like how the Zori and Poe angle also goes nowhere, but I suppose we get a little bit of background on Poe’s character so it might still justify it’s existence?
Jannah and Fin, is the same. Goes nowhere…there might be some scope to play around there.
But unless we get some extra content on the possible Jannah and Lando connection, Lando’s ‘let’s go find out’ has to get thrown out.
(I’m not even sure how that line even made it into the final cut considering that the film makers clearly binned off everything else relating to that plot line?)
I’d really hope there’s more material from Mustafar, Exegol and generally more Rey and Kylo scenes both separate and together.
They have been the central focus of the new trilogy and so they deserve more robust plot lines that we really didn’t get in the theatrical release.
I appreciate that none of what I’ve written above is particularly constructive, but I’m just not scene by scene familiar with it enough yet to properly suggest changes, and I’m really hoping we get more meat in the home release to fill out the existing holes.
^^^ Generally speaking I am in the same boat as you with that view.
“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”