Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 172

I feel like Cosmonaut Variety Hour’s perspective is a pretty fair assessment. He likes all the Luke/Rey/Kylo stuff, but he feels the Finn/Poe/Rose stuff is pretty weak in comparison.

RJ said he created Rose because he felt Finn and Poe had the same voice, but imagine the Rose and Finn conversation about war, but Poe took Finn’s place and Finn took Rose’s place. Poe likes being the hero and does whatever he can to win, but considering Finn is a literal child soldier, he knows all about the costs of war.

I don’t hate the Canto Bight stuff but I do think it could’ve been better. I do understand the point of separating the big three, but less characters = more time to spend with Finn and Poe and develop their relationship.

RogueLeader said:

I feel like Cosmonaut Variety Hour’s perspective is a pretty fair assessment. He likes all the Luke/Rey/Kylo stuff, but he feels the Finn/Poe/Rose stuff is pretty weak in comparison.

RJ said he created Rose because he felt Finn and Poe had the same voice, but imagine the Rose and Finn conversation about war, but Poe took Finn’s place and Finn took Rose’s place. Poe likes being the hero and does whatever he can to win, but considering Finn is a literal child soldier, he knows all about the costs of war.

It’d come at the expense of one or both of their arcs, though.

OutboundFlight said:

Also, Finn and Poe can kiss on Crait!

I like that, though I’m not sure I buy the rest. Why is the guy who isn’t devoted to the cause telling the one who is how bad the war is? What is Poe learning exactly, and how is Finn learning his lesson? It’s a lot cleaner if Finn gets the “why we fight” story, and Poe’s story is focused on heroism vs. recklessness.

At least that’s how I feel and how Johnson felt. Maybe there was a different way to do it that’d work equally well, I don’t know. For me I don’t really have any problem with Canto Bight so I don’t really see why it should’ve been done differently. Different strokes I guess.

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

Also, Finn and Poe can kiss on Crait!

I like that, though I’m not sure I buy the rest. Why is the guy who isn’t devoted to the cause telling the one who is how bad the war is? What is Poe learning exactly, and how is Finn learning his lesson? It’s a lot cleaner if Finn gets the “why we fight” story, and Poe’s story is focused on heroism vs. recklessness.

At least that’s how I feel and how Johnson felt. Maybe there was a different way to do it that’d work equally well, I don’t know. For me I don’t really have any problem with Canto Bight so I don’t really see why it should’ve been done differently. Different strokes I guess.

It seems very odd, that Rose the mechanic is teaching Finn the former soldier, who was pretty much enslaved as a child about the horrors of war, and slavery. This is the issue with many of the character arcs in TLJ, where RJ just uses them as tools to send whatever message he wants to the audience, whether it is consistent with their previously established character, and character history or not. It’s fine that Poe needs to learn about what it means to be a leader, but at the same time Poe is so over the top irresponsible, and hot headed, that it doesn’t really seem very consistent with the good natured, respected pilot and commander that was presented to us in TFA.

ATMachine said:

Honestly I don’t think RJ works well with characters he didn’t create himself. He’s probably a far better director without having to deal with a collaborative series of films.

Well, I think he sees himself as an “auteur”, which is fine, and he is very talented, but I think it creates conflicts, when you write the 8th chapter of what is essentially someone else’s story. The Skywalker saga has become a mishmash of conflicting visions, Lucas’, JJ’s, and RJ’s.

Here’s an interesting article, that defends TLJ:

https://medium.com/@JeffreyTWebb/the-last-jedi-is-the-first-existentialist-star-wars-80149ef1af00

“When fans complain that Rian Johnson is “trolling” Star Wars fans, I think this is part of what they’re trying to say. We had our golden calf — how dare you melt it. But the lesson of The Last Jedi is that we don’t need golden idols to have an epic worth believing in. Flawed men and women, in the end, will do.”

I think she hits the nail on the head, except for the fact, that what she describes as a golden calf is very meaningful to many others. I think this is where the heart of the divisiveness comes from. There is an air of dismisiveness in the word “golden calf = false idol”, that I believe many also experienced, when watching the film. They view TLJ as a form of iconoclasm:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/edmontonjournal.com/entertainment/movies/the-last-jedi-takes-an-iconoclastic-leap-into-a-larger-world/amp

These are really interesting article, thanks for sharing!

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

Also, Finn and Poe can kiss on Crait!

I like that, though I’m not sure I buy the rest. Why is the guy who isn’t devoted to the cause telling the one who is how bad the war is? What is Poe learning exactly, and how is Finn learning his lesson? It’s a lot cleaner if Finn gets the “why we fight” story, and Poe’s story is focused on heroism vs. recklessness.

At least that’s how I feel and how Johnson felt. Maybe there was a different way to do it that’d work equally well, I don’t know. For me I don’t really have any problem with Canto Bight so I don’t really see why it should’ve been done differently. Different strokes I guess.

It seems very odd, that Rose the mechanic is teaching Finn the former soldier, who was pretty much enslaved as a child about the horrors of war, and slavery. This is the issue with many of the character arcs in TLJ, where RJ just uses them as tools to send whatever message he wants to the audience, whether it is consistent with their previously established character, and character history or not.

TFA set up Finn as a character who explicitly wanted to run. That meant that in TLJ they had an opportunity to finally do a “why we fight” sort of story for a main character, which is something that really hasn’t been done before in the series. Finn was a child soldier, yes, and they could have gone a different direction, but Finn’s characterization as just trying to save himself and Rey and getting out of it is not at all inconsistent with his character as previously established.

And I don’t think Rose’s place in it is odd at all, as they clearly explain her backstory.

It’s fine that Poe needs to learn about what it means to be a leader, but at the same time Poe is so over the top irresponsible, and hot headed, that it doesn’t really seem very consistent with the good natured, respected pilot and commander that was presented to us in TFA.

I mean, come on. Poe is clearly a cocky hero type in TFA. You’ll argue about anything, I swear.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

Also, Finn and Poe can kiss on Crait!

I like that, though I’m not sure I buy the rest. Why is the guy who isn’t devoted to the cause telling the one who is how bad the war is? What is Poe learning exactly, and how is Finn learning his lesson? It’s a lot cleaner if Finn gets the “why we fight” story, and Poe’s story is focused on heroism vs. recklessness.

At least that’s how I feel and how Johnson felt. Maybe there was a different way to do it that’d work equally well, I don’t know. For me I don’t really have any problem with Canto Bight so I don’t really see why it should’ve been done differently. Different strokes I guess.

It seems very odd, that Rose the mechanic is teaching Finn the former soldier, who was pretty much enslaved as a child about the horrors of war, and slavery. This is the issue with many of the character arcs in TLJ, where RJ just uses them as tools to send whatever message he wants to the audience, whether it is consistent with their previously established character, and character history or not.

TFA set up Finn as a character who explicitly wanted to run. That meant that in TLJ they had an opportunity to finally do a “why we fight” sort of story for a main character, which is something that really hasn’t been done before in the series. Finn was a child soldier, yes, and they could have gone a different direction, but Finn’s characterization as just trying to save himself and Rey and getting out of it is not at all inconsistent with his character as previously established.

And I don’t think Rose’s place in it is odd at all, as they clearly explain her backstory.

It’s fine that Poe needs to learn about what it means to be a leader, but at the same time Poe is so over the top irresponsible, and hot headed, that it doesn’t really seem very consistent with the good natured, respected pilot and commander that was presented to us in TFA.

I mean, come on. Poe is clearly a cocky hero type in TFA. You’ll argue about anything, I swear.

Cocky hero type, and downright irresponsible to the point of disobeying a direct order, and starting a mutiny are two very different things. If the opening scene of TFA told us anything, it was that Poe was the one pilot in the Resistance, that Leia trusted above all else to carry out a highly sensitive mission. Why would she do that, if he was such an irresponsible hothead? My take is, that RJ clearly wanted to make a point of toxic masculinity, and hero worship with his film, and so several characters were fitted into this mold.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

Also, Finn and Poe can kiss on Crait!

I like that, though I’m not sure I buy the rest. Why is the guy who isn’t devoted to the cause telling the one who is how bad the war is? What is Poe learning exactly, and how is Finn learning his lesson? It’s a lot cleaner if Finn gets the “why we fight” story, and Poe’s story is focused on heroism vs. recklessness.

At least that’s how I feel and how Johnson felt. Maybe there was a different way to do it that’d work equally well, I don’t know. For me I don’t really have any problem with Canto Bight so I don’t really see why it should’ve been done differently. Different strokes I guess.

It seems very odd, that Rose the mechanic is teaching Finn the former soldier, who was pretty much enslaved as a child about the horrors of war, and slavery. This is the issue with many of the character arcs in TLJ, where RJ just uses them as tools to send whatever message he wants to the audience, whether it is consistent with their previously established character, and character history or not.

TFA set up Finn as a character who explicitly wanted to run. That meant that in TLJ they had an opportunity to finally do a “why we fight” sort of story for a main character, which is something that really hasn’t been done before in the series. Finn was a child soldier, yes, and they could have gone a different direction, but Finn’s characterization as just trying to save himself and Rey and getting out of it is not at all inconsistent with his character as previously established.

And I don’t think Rose’s place in it is odd at all, as they clearly explain her backstory.

It’s fine that Poe needs to learn about what it means to be a leader, but at the same time Poe is so over the top irresponsible, and hot headed, that it doesn’t really seem very consistent with the good natured, respected pilot and commander that was presented to us in TFA.

I mean, come on. Poe is clearly a cocky hero type in TFA. You’ll argue about anything, I swear.

Cocky hero type, and downright irresponsible to the point of disobeying a direct order, amd starting a mutiny are two very different things. If the opening scene of TFA told us anything, it was that Poe was the one pilot in the Resistance, that Leia trusted most of all. Why would she do that, if he was such an irresponsible hothead?

All we know about him is his character type. Otherwise his personality is pretty undefined and open to a lot of growth. But maybe he should have just stayed perfectly nice without any problems throughout the whole trilogy? That would have been really interesting. Just because Leia trusted him doesn’t mean he should be immune to mistakes.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

Also, Finn and Poe can kiss on Crait!

I like that, though I’m not sure I buy the rest. Why is the guy who isn’t devoted to the cause telling the one who is how bad the war is? What is Poe learning exactly, and how is Finn learning his lesson? It’s a lot cleaner if Finn gets the “why we fight” story, and Poe’s story is focused on heroism vs. recklessness.

At least that’s how I feel and how Johnson felt. Maybe there was a different way to do it that’d work equally well, I don’t know. For me I don’t really have any problem with Canto Bight so I don’t really see why it should’ve been done differently. Different strokes I guess.

It seems very odd, that Rose the mechanic is teaching Finn the former soldier, who was pretty much enslaved as a child about the horrors of war, and slavery. This is the issue with many of the character arcs in TLJ, where RJ just uses them as tools to send whatever message he wants to the audience, whether it is consistent with their previously established character, and character history or not.

TFA set up Finn as a character who explicitly wanted to run. That meant that in TLJ they had an opportunity to finally do a “why we fight” sort of story for a main character, which is something that really hasn’t been done before in the series. Finn was a child soldier, yes, and they could have gone a different direction, but Finn’s characterization as just trying to save himself and Rey and getting out of it is not at all inconsistent with his character as previously established.

And I don’t think Rose’s place in it is odd at all, as they clearly explain her backstory.

It’s fine that Poe needs to learn about what it means to be a leader, but at the same time Poe is so over the top irresponsible, and hot headed, that it doesn’t really seem very consistent with the good natured, respected pilot and commander that was presented to us in TFA.

I mean, come on. Poe is clearly a cocky hero type in TFA. You’ll argue about anything, I swear.

Cocky hero type, and downright irresponsible to the point of disobeying a direct order, amd starting a mutiny are two very different things. If the opening scene of TFA told us anything, it was that Poe was the one pilot in the Resistance, that Leia trusted most of all. Why would she do that, if he was such an irresponsible hothead?

All we know about him is his character type. Otherwise his personality is pretty undefined and open to a lot of growth. But maybe he should have just stayed perfectly nice without any problems throughout the whole trilogy? That would have been really interesting. Just because Leia trusted him doesn’t mean he should be immune to mistakes.

Of course he can make mistakes. I have no problem with the idea “that not everything can be solved with an X-wing”, but the problem here is, that it’s driven so far as to be almost a caricature. Same goes for Holdo. Her attitude is understandable to a point, but the characters are so obviously set up for conflict, that it feels contrived most of the time. The conflict doesn’t follow from good characterization from my point of view.

ATMachine said:

Honestly I don’t think RJ works well with characters he didn’t create himself. He’s probably a far better director without having to deal with a collaborative series of films.

The three episodes of Breaking Bad he directed are widely considered three of the best episodes that show ever produced.

Rian Johnson works well with basically everybody.

act on instinct said:

DominicCobb said:

I mean, come on. Poe is clearly a cocky hero type in TFA. You’ll argue about anything, I swear.

And you’ll argue back, please be respectful.

I know, I’m as stupid as anyone. It’s all just fucking ridiculous.

DominicCobb said:

act on instinct said:

DominicCobb said:

I mean, come on. Poe is clearly a cocky hero type in TFA. You’ll argue about anything, I swear.

And you’ll argue back, please be respectful.

I know, I’m as stupid as anyone. It’s all just fucking ridiculous.

That’s a running theme with you. Rather than just disagreeing with someone, and arguing your point of view, people allways have to have some kind of agenda, and their arguments are fucking ridiculous, or some other derogatory qualification.

But the director isn’t just a director on any set. He’s also partially a cinematographer, partially an editor, partially an acting coach, and yes - partially a writer. Even if they never get those credits. The idea that he doesn’t work well with characters he didn’t create doesn’t make sense considering one of the best shows on television, one he had zero hand in creating or developing, kept having him come back to direct increasingly more and more important episodes.

The idea that he doesn’t work well with people or their creations doesn’t hold a lot of water when looking at his career, a career which has never actually had a failure in it, looking at both audience, critical, and financial receptions.

Rian got what he wanted because he works well with people and those people all helped him realize his vision.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

act on instinct said:

DominicCobb said:

I mean, come on. Poe is clearly a cocky hero type in TFA. You’ll argue about anything, I swear.

And you’ll argue back, please be respectful.

I know, I’m as stupid as anyone. It’s all just fucking ridiculous.

That’s a running theme with you. Rather than just disagreeing with someone, and arguing your point of view, people allways have to have some kind of agenda, and their arguments are fucking ridiculous, or some other derogatory qualification.

No. No. The constant arguing is “fucking ridiculous.” I’m as guilty as anyone.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

act on instinct said:

DominicCobb said:

I mean, come on. Poe is clearly a cocky hero type in TFA. You’ll argue about anything, I swear.

And you’ll argue back, please be respectful.

I know, I’m as stupid as anyone. It’s all just fucking ridiculous.

That’s a running theme with you. Rather than just disagreeing with someone, and arguing your point of view, people allways have to have some kind of agenda, and their arguments are fucking ridiculous, or some other derogatory qualification.

No. No. The constant arguing is “fucking ridiculous.” I’m as guilty as anyone.

O sorry, guess I’m too…

Sometimes I like to imagine Dre and Dom trapped in a bunker together after some kind of nuclear apocalypse, but despite the end of the world they’ll still be debating this movie.