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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 140

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Creox said:

Hal 9000 said:

So how did Leia know Rey was a Palpatine but Luke didn’t?

I would think it would be specific, not just that she sensed it. Otherwise, why wouldn’t Luke have? (At least once he reconnected himself to the Force.)

I think he did?? or am I misremembering?

In TROS Luke says Leia knew, and I inferred that he meant he did not. In TLJ Luke very clearly doesn’t know who Rey is or what is significant about her. He sees that she ‘went straight to the dark,’ but this only struck a nerve because of Ben.

My stance on revising fan edits.

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NFBisms said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

It’s a compelling idea and, from where I’m standing, it made for two good movies so far, I’d say it could last at least one more (if not more).

To me it’s so lazy to define a character simply based on who they’re related to. It’s much more interesting if she’s forced to go the path on her own. She struggles with both the light and the dark because everybody does, because everybody has the potential for both good and bad. And maybe I was crazy for thinking that they could have made a storyline where she comes to realize that learning to reconcile the light and the dark is healthy, and that trying to ignore and suppress the darkness can lead to the darkness taking over when you don’t expect it.

What I loved so much about the end of The Last Jedi was it put her in a place where she was forced to carry on the legacy of the Jedi by herself. So much of the last two films were about legacy, and with the end of the last film specifically being about how the legend of Luke is spreading, how does Rey help to continue that narrative and preserve that legacy, while crafting a legacy of her own? As much as I like that Leia ended up being her master, it’s a much more interesting storyline to have her try to learn the ways of the Jedi without any lifeline. That was what they were setting up, that it was on her now, and that because she didn’t have formal Jedi training she would be wide open to discovering new things, to become that new, better source of light that Luke had wanted (and because she wouldn’t have a teacher it be much easier for her to stray to the dark).

Why couldn’t we have seen her trying to build her new order? Why did it have to mirror the story of ROTJ, where she’s stuck trying to get over her dark side lineage and doesn’t rebuild the order until offscreen, after the film? Why couldn’t she have been trying to train Finn? Couldn’t that have been an interesting story for both of them? Why couldn’t her goal this film be to find a way to defeat the bad guys using love not hate? Why did they have to resolve her story in the laziest way possible?

I like your ideas and I also like Rey being a nobody but they had one movie to resolve it. Your post cannot be done properly with one movie. With one movie you need something to play against/fight against that is tangible.

I honestly think they should have stuck with Snoke instead of bringing Palpatine back but imo he just represents the dark side of the force…it could have been anything but it had to be a thing, not a character/personality stuggle within Rey.

Disagree. There’s a lot of ways it could have been handled, my post is just elucidating some of the ways (not necessarily saying they all had to be done, just giving options). I don’t think bringing back Palpatine was a necessity, but even sticking with the narrative JJ and Terrio came up with, you could have easily kept it Rey nobody. Palpatine saw Rey’s future and how powerful she would become, and wanted her killed, but her parents died protecting her. Rey learns this and wants to kill Palpatine as revenge for killing her parents and robbing her of a family. But actually, Rey learns that revenge is not a way to live and that she already has a family that loves her. There you go, easy.

I don’t think I would want to watch Rey struggle with her internal temptations without a protagonist to play against.

I assume you mean antagonist, but now that you mention it I would have actually really liked that. Doubling down on the characters and the themes, as opposed to conjuring up a new plot with a new threat with new goals, etc. sounds 10x more interesting than what we got. Rey forging her own future with the Force, Ben grappling with having everything he wanted at the cost of his soul, Poe stepping up as a responsible leader, etc.

A lower key, character-driven conclusion that follows up on TLJ’s themes would justify the sequel trilogy more imo. As it ended up being, the ST is just a new (barely) story with new characters. In a lot of ways the same story, just again. Why should we care? Because new and exciting? No, it needed to be more than that. If it could have doubled down on being about the generational fallout of the OT as legend, as TLJ tried to do, the ST could stand neatly in the saga as something of an epilogue to the first 6.

It didn’t need to try to outdo ROTJ, be a bigger, more bombastic, cumulative finale. I would have been really interested to see a more spiritual closing. And of course there’d still be action and thrills, but it wouldn’t need to be the point of tension or climax.

Of course the film could be a lot of different things with many different plots. My main point with this whole discussion is that considering the film we got I really don’t care if Rey was a Palpatine or not. She could also be a nobody and I would be fine with it as long as they could make it work. As I said to Dom, It is hard to present an antagonist for Rey in this film without someone like Palpatine. The relationship between her and Kylo is a different thing imo and has been from the beginning. It took the emperor to change them both.

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Creox said:

NFBisms said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

It’s a compelling idea and, from where I’m standing, it made for two good movies so far, I’d say it could last at least one more (if not more).

To me it’s so lazy to define a character simply based on who they’re related to. It’s much more interesting if she’s forced to go the path on her own. She struggles with both the light and the dark because everybody does, because everybody has the potential for both good and bad. And maybe I was crazy for thinking that they could have made a storyline where she comes to realize that learning to reconcile the light and the dark is healthy, and that trying to ignore and suppress the darkness can lead to the darkness taking over when you don’t expect it.

What I loved so much about the end of The Last Jedi was it put her in a place where she was forced to carry on the legacy of the Jedi by herself. So much of the last two films were about legacy, and with the end of the last film specifically being about how the legend of Luke is spreading, how does Rey help to continue that narrative and preserve that legacy, while crafting a legacy of her own? As much as I like that Leia ended up being her master, it’s a much more interesting storyline to have her try to learn the ways of the Jedi without any lifeline. That was what they were setting up, that it was on her now, and that because she didn’t have formal Jedi training she would be wide open to discovering new things, to become that new, better source of light that Luke had wanted (and because she wouldn’t have a teacher it be much easier for her to stray to the dark).

Why couldn’t we have seen her trying to build her new order? Why did it have to mirror the story of ROTJ, where she’s stuck trying to get over her dark side lineage and doesn’t rebuild the order until offscreen, after the film? Why couldn’t she have been trying to train Finn? Couldn’t that have been an interesting story for both of them? Why couldn’t her goal this film be to find a way to defeat the bad guys using love not hate? Why did they have to resolve her story in the laziest way possible?

I like your ideas and I also like Rey being a nobody but they had one movie to resolve it. Your post cannot be done properly with one movie. With one movie you need something to play against/fight against that is tangible.

I honestly think they should have stuck with Snoke instead of bringing Palpatine back but imo he just represents the dark side of the force…it could have been anything but it had to be a thing, not a character/personality stuggle within Rey.

Disagree. There’s a lot of ways it could have been handled, my post is just elucidating some of the ways (not necessarily saying they all had to be done, just giving options). I don’t think bringing back Palpatine was a necessity, but even sticking with the narrative JJ and Terrio came up with, you could have easily kept it Rey nobody. Palpatine saw Rey’s future and how powerful she would become, and wanted her killed, but her parents died protecting her. Rey learns this and wants to kill Palpatine as revenge for killing her parents and robbing her of a family. But actually, Rey learns that revenge is not a way to live and that she already has a family that loves her. There you go, easy.

I don’t think I would want to watch Rey struggle with her internal temptations without a protagonist to play against.

I assume you mean antagonist, but now that you mention it I would have actually really liked that. Doubling down on the characters and the themes, as opposed to conjuring up a new plot with a new threat with new goals, etc. sounds 10x more interesting than what we got. Rey forging her own future with the Force, Ben grappling with having everything he wanted at the cost of his soul, Poe stepping up as a responsible leader, etc.

A lower key, character-driven conclusion that follows up on TLJ’s themes would justify the sequel trilogy more imo. As it ended up being, the ST is just a new (barely) story with new characters. In a lot of ways the same story, just again. Why should we care? Because new and exciting? No, it needed to be more than that. If it could have doubled down on being about the generational fallout of the OT as legend, as TLJ tried to do, the ST could stand neatly in the saga as something of an epilogue to the first 6.

It didn’t need to try to outdo ROTJ, be a bigger, more bombastic, cumulative finale. I would have been really interested to see a more spiritual closing. And of course there’d still be action and thrills, but it wouldn’t need to be the point of tension or climax.

Of course the film could be a lot of different things with many different plots. My main point with this whole discussion is that considering the film we got I really don’t care if Rey was a Palpatine or not. She could also be a nobody and I would be fine with it as long as they could make it work. As I said to Dom, It is hard to present an antagonist for Rey in this film without someone like Palpatine. The relationship between her and Kylo is a different thing imo and has been from the beginning. It took the emperor to change them both.

Well I still disagree that a Palpatine figure was needed, but that’s hardly my issue with it. We agree on the main point, which is that she could have remained a nobody, even with the plot as is.

Honestly, Palpatine’s return probably wouldn’t even rank in the top 10 of my problems with this film.

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DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

NFBisms said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

It’s a compelling idea and, from where I’m standing, it made for two good movies so far, I’d say it could last at least one more (if not more).

To me it’s so lazy to define a character simply based on who they’re related to. It’s much more interesting if she’s forced to go the path on her own. She struggles with both the light and the dark because everybody does, because everybody has the potential for both good and bad. And maybe I was crazy for thinking that they could have made a storyline where she comes to realize that learning to reconcile the light and the dark is healthy, and that trying to ignore and suppress the darkness can lead to the darkness taking over when you don’t expect it.

What I loved so much about the end of The Last Jedi was it put her in a place where she was forced to carry on the legacy of the Jedi by herself. So much of the last two films were about legacy, and with the end of the last film specifically being about how the legend of Luke is spreading, how does Rey help to continue that narrative and preserve that legacy, while crafting a legacy of her own? As much as I like that Leia ended up being her master, it’s a much more interesting storyline to have her try to learn the ways of the Jedi without any lifeline. That was what they were setting up, that it was on her now, and that because she didn’t have formal Jedi training she would be wide open to discovering new things, to become that new, better source of light that Luke had wanted (and because she wouldn’t have a teacher it be much easier for her to stray to the dark).

Why couldn’t we have seen her trying to build her new order? Why did it have to mirror the story of ROTJ, where she’s stuck trying to get over her dark side lineage and doesn’t rebuild the order until offscreen, after the film? Why couldn’t she have been trying to train Finn? Couldn’t that have been an interesting story for both of them? Why couldn’t her goal this film be to find a way to defeat the bad guys using love not hate? Why did they have to resolve her story in the laziest way possible?

I like your ideas and I also like Rey being a nobody but they had one movie to resolve it. Your post cannot be done properly with one movie. With one movie you need something to play against/fight against that is tangible.

I honestly think they should have stuck with Snoke instead of bringing Palpatine back but imo he just represents the dark side of the force…it could have been anything but it had to be a thing, not a character/personality stuggle within Rey.

Disagree. There’s a lot of ways it could have been handled, my post is just elucidating some of the ways (not necessarily saying they all had to be done, just giving options). I don’t think bringing back Palpatine was a necessity, but even sticking with the narrative JJ and Terrio came up with, you could have easily kept it Rey nobody. Palpatine saw Rey’s future and how powerful she would become, and wanted her killed, but her parents died protecting her. Rey learns this and wants to kill Palpatine as revenge for killing her parents and robbing her of a family. But actually, Rey learns that revenge is not a way to live and that she already has a family that loves her. There you go, easy.

I don’t think I would want to watch Rey struggle with her internal temptations without a protagonist to play against.

I assume you mean antagonist, but now that you mention it I would have actually really liked that. Doubling down on the characters and the themes, as opposed to conjuring up a new plot with a new threat with new goals, etc. sounds 10x more interesting than what we got. Rey forging her own future with the Force, Ben grappling with having everything he wanted at the cost of his soul, Poe stepping up as a responsible leader, etc.

A lower key, character-driven conclusion that follows up on TLJ’s themes would justify the sequel trilogy more imo. As it ended up being, the ST is just a new (barely) story with new characters. In a lot of ways the same story, just again. Why should we care? Because new and exciting? No, it needed to be more than that. If it could have doubled down on being about the generational fallout of the OT as legend, as TLJ tried to do, the ST could stand neatly in the saga as something of an epilogue to the first 6.

It didn’t need to try to outdo ROTJ, be a bigger, more bombastic, cumulative finale. I would have been really interested to see a more spiritual closing. And of course there’d still be action and thrills, but it wouldn’t need to be the point of tension or climax.

Of course the film could be a lot of different things with many different plots. My main point with this whole discussion is that considering the film we got I really don’t care if Rey was a Palpatine or not. She could also be a nobody and I would be fine with it as long as they could make it work. As I said to Dom, It is hard to present an antagonist for Rey in this film without someone like Palpatine. The relationship between her and Kylo is a different thing imo and has been from the beginning. It took the emperor to change them both.

Well I still disagree that a Palpatine figure was needed, but that’s hardly my issue with it. We agree on the main point, which is that she could have remained a nobody, even with the plot as is.

Honestly, Palpatine’s return probably wouldn’t even rank in the top 10 of my problems with this film.

Fair enough. Thanks for the discussion.

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 (Edited)

So I was just thinking about this while talking about the movie with a friend tonight. When Palpatine raises his hands to form a new fleet of star destroyers, I think that might be an attempt to retcon the non explanation for the growth and resources of the FO, just like creating Snoke, gone is the political machine of TLJ, and TFA’s status quo has also now been completely explained, Palpatine was behind it all! Sheev out playing holochess while we all playing checkers…

EDIT: wait…nevermind, Poe then says his followers have been building the fleet for years, I don’t even know anymore.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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Originally the First Order were said to have come out of the Unknown Regions I think. So it’s not unreasonable, it just doesn’t make sense that they bothered even attacking before 10,000 planet killing ships were made.

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Interesting tidbit: While I was scrolling through r/starwarsleaks, I read a thread regarding the death scene of Ben, in which it points out numerous inconsistencies in the shots (i.e Rey clearly delivering dialogue that have been cut out) that suggest that they originally were planning to have a completely “different ending” in which Ben Solo could’ve lived.

Link to reddit thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/eetirx/the_scene_where_ben_dies_is_actually_reversed/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Link to original twitter post pointing out the isses:
https://mobile.twitter.com/Centennial_2/status/1209242571639267328

JEDIT: Here is the OP of the Reddit post’s idea of the actual sequencing of this scene:
“I think that the right sequence in this scene is: he comes back from the pit, heals Rey, lies down due to exhaustion, she wakes up, pulls him up, they do talks, he laughs and then they kiss, implying that they both would’ve survived.”

this post has been edited.

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 (Edited)

Ok so I’m not posting this in here as any kind of commentary on TROS, just purely for comical reasons and because it technically includes a spoiler or two.

Palpatine’s Journey: https://youtu.be/1sFbLppuhhs

LOL!

Grandpa Palps above was meant to be funny to, I mean just look at that kindly old face doting upon his granddaughter XD

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Dat_SW_Guy said:

Interesting tidbit: While I was scrolling through r/starwarsleaks, I read a thread regarding the death scene of Ben, in which it points out numerous inconsistencies in the shots (i.e Rey clearly delivering dialogue that have been cut out) that suggest that they originally were planning to have a completely “different ending” in which Ben Solo could’ve lived.

Link to reddit thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/eetirx/the_scene_where_ben_dies_is_actually_reversed/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Link to original twitter post pointing out the isses:
https://mobile.twitter.com/Centennial_2/status/1209242571639267328

JEDIT: Here is the OP of the Reddit post’s idea of the actual sequencing of this scene:
“I think that the right sequence in this scene is: he comes back from the pit, heals Rey, lies down due to exhaustion, she wakes up, pulls him up, they do talks, he laughs and then they kiss, implying that they both would’ve survived.”

The one comment that stuck out for me suggests studios frequently film that kind of scene backwards to avoid injuries for the actors. Definitely would explain some of the confusion.

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 (Edited)

If you watch the whole shot in reverse (not just the portion shown in the Twitter thread) it becomes clear the shot is not reversed, or at least it was carefully shot with the intention of reversing it, because Adam’s head bounces upon impact with the ground. It wouldn’t make sense for him to jerk his head up in the way he appears to do in the reversed footage before being pulled up, and the effect it has on the hair over his face doesn’t make much sense in the reversed footage either, so I have to conclude it’s a real bounce and the footage is being played in the direction it was shot. It looks strange and sped up in both directions because of missing frames and a 23.976fps movie being poorly captured at 30fps.

Rey’s totally talking though.

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The music that plays after Rey fixes DO’s squeaky wheel is the same ominous cue as after she slices the rock on Ach-To.

I wonder what the connection is. The rock prefigured Luke’s death. Fixing the wheel… I’m not sure. Someone pointed out to me that BB8 charging DO is just like Ben healing Rey.

My stance on revising fan edits.

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Valheru_84 said:

Ok so I’m not posting this in here as any kind of commentary on TROS, just purely for comical reasons and because it technically includes a spoiler or two.

Palpatine’s Journey: https://youtu.be/1sFbLppuhhs

LOL!

Grandpa Palps above was meant to be funny to, I mean just look at that kindly old face doting upon his granddaughter XD

The animation this guy does is soo good! I would love it if they did a kid’s show in the style and tone on Disney+.

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Hal 9000 said:

The music that plays after Rey fixes DO’s squeaky wheel is the same ominous cue as after she slices the rock on Ach-To.

I wonder what the connection is. The rock prefigured Luke’s death. Fixing the wheel… I’m not sure. Someone pointed out to me that BB8 charging DO is just like Ben healing Rey.

Honestly the music is probably coincidental.

Yeah, someone noted that Rey told BB-8 how healing works after healing the snake. I think she mentioned something along the lines of BB-8 not being able to do that, but then later he gives D-O some of his own energy, having learned it from Rey.

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Hal 9000 said:

Someone pointed out to me that BB8 charging DO is just like Ben healing Rey.

See? This movie has layers, man 😉

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Did someone else think that Kylo Ren’s turn back to light after the Deathstar duel felt somewhat anticlimatic?
When I saw the movie I was far more engaged up until that point then with what happended after that part.

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Small thought from second viewing before I give my full thoughts on it.

Both showings I went to people laughed when Ben and Rey kissed. Thinking about it, the score pushes this a little bit since the score completely cuts out right before Rey says “Ben.” A score coming out tends to imply a joke and people felt awkward laughing, but the way the score pushes for that made it happen I think.

Idk, maybe. Tomorrow is viewing 3 so we will see what I think after that.

After being beaten and battered by prequel hate, I promise not to be that to the next generation.

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I’ve heard a few comments similar to those. A part of me wishes that Ben potentially turned earlier in the film. Or began his turn earlier, at least.

I really liked the idea of a First Order coup forcing Kylo Ren to work with our heroes. And face-to-face interaction and conversation where he isn’t just trying to turn her to the dark side might’ve made their kiss in the end more expected. I think partly why some people don’t have an “Aww” reaction is because they never blatantly talk about their feelings for each other beyond “I want you to join me.”

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Maybe it was a mistake but I left one or two comments on a reddit thread today about the film, just to share my opinion. I really was not expecting the reaction.

Basically I just said why I didn’t really like Rey Palpatine and wished Ben Solo had lived. One comment was, “Give it a rest feminist. Jesus it is always the same line with you people.”
Another, “It’s okay Rey forgave him but Ben had to die for committing genocide.”

Leia was feminist for her time, but suddenly being the least bit “girl power” is enough reason for someone to insult you.
Am I crazy? Is Star Wars not a fairy tale? Star Wars isn’t real life, and I don’t think death should be the only way bad people can redeem themselves. That the only way you can make up for your mistakes is if you stopped living.

Maybe I have a bad opinion. I feel like I’ve been the minority opinion on so many Star Wars conversations. Either way, trying to engage in any conversation about Star Wars is just so tiring.

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I overall like browsing Reddit, but I tend to avoid /r/StarWars. I wouldn’t take it too personally if I were you; your posts are pleasant and well-thought out here on the forums.
Perhaps the friction comes from how it’s a newer breed of fanboys. I suppose I technically fit in that newer category too, but regardless, if you imagine if more of those vocal users tried to post here, it would be even worse than it is now.

The Rise of Failures

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 (Edited)

Anti-SJWs have conflated radical feminism with feminism in general. Which wouldn’t be so bad if they could be convinced otherwise, but then they wouldn’t be Anti-SJWs if that was possible.

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Alright during the Rey Kylo fight in the water Finn and Jana are inside the wreckage, then 10 seconds later they’re on top of the wreckage, then Rey pushes Finn through the waves, then we see them on Ajan Kloss with zero explanation of how they got there or when they repaired the Falcon. Just a small scene needed to be added to fix this…

After being beaten and battered by prequel hate, I promise not to be that to the next generation.

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Thanks for the words of encouragement Tavor and Duracell. Happy Holidays to you two.

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 (Edited)

I left a brief review on a more SJW film site in which I said that I liked it while listing the caveats that it was a mess which often ruined aspects of previous films such as the excellent Rey-nobody angle. Even with this middling praise however I was downvoted severely for not hating it enough.

There’s toxicity on all sides. It’s tough to express enjoyment for Star Wars.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)