This is a very good post, Broom Kid. It is the “fan theory” movie. Back in 2016 and 2017, I was cringing at all the Rey Skywalker, Rey Kenobi, and Rey Palpatine takes. Like, what thematic purpose would that have? Rey wants to be somebody, she’s sure her parents cared about her… Even if not, Luke will give her purpose…
TLJ, for all its flaws, is strong thematically. It looks at these things and says “well what if her parents just abandoned her and she’s no one? and what if Luke is in crisis and isn’t at all the saviour Rey had hoped for? What then? Can Rey still believe in herself despite not having some sort of bloodline legacy? Being a nobody is what she fears, but can she face that fear and prevail?”
There’s an amazing reylo video out there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-qi4OhCii4
I think, despite star wars suffering from overanalysis, this is a great take on something that was likely intentional on the part of the writer-director. TLJ mostly answers the important TFA questions via thematic exploration. This new one answers them again, but differently and much the way a run-of-the-mill fan theory would… Interestingly, IX is making me appreciate TLJ more and TFA less and less because I now know what JJ’s takes on those setups are
reylo?
Yep, it’s the ultimate fan fiction. I’m glad, though. That’s always what the ST’s been, and now I can take it not seriously without feeling like I’m disrespecting it, because TROS informs us that the ST doesn’t want to be anything other than, well, fan fic. TLJ wanted to, but TFA and TROS most certainly don’t.
I posted what I think is my favorite review of this movie earlier, but its author tweeted something that is very relevant to the discussion.
https://twitter.com/mangiotto/status/1207423051404431360
"The thing about giving fans what they want is it holds a mirror up to the sad limits of a fan’s imagination. Not just for possible paths to evolve their objects of veneration, but for their own potential growth as human beings. “Look! Look! This is all you think you deserve.”
That’s an effective description of the creative impulse behind this movie. It really is.
(that review, again, if you missed it: https://www.filmfreakcentral.net/ffc/2019/12/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker.html)
The more I think about this movie, the less sense it makes. The Sith dagger is one of the most baffling plot points for me. So Ochi wrote the location of the wayfinder on the dagger, and also designed the dagger to resemble the skyline of the Death Star wreckage? Why? As far as I can tell, nothing in the movie explains this.
Palpatine’s plan is confusing too. First he wants Rey dead, but later he wants to transfer his soul into her body. Rey eventually kills him, but his spirit doesn’t possess her body.
Also, how did Palpatine raise such a huge fleet all on his own on Exegol? Who’s piloting all those ships? Who is training all the Sith troopers? Who is developing all the new weapons? I can buy the empire or the first order having a massive military because they’re ruling over many different planets. It’s a bit tougher to swallow one planet raising an army substantially larger than the first order.
I think making “sense” of the movie is most easily done if you look at it from the POV that it’s still 2016. It’s a story that - again - isn’t really ABOUT anything, thematically, and isn’t really saying anything beyond “here is how our plot is closed out,” and the decisions made to close out that plot seem to be focused almost solely on answering every last fan-chewed “mystery” that was hashed out in the early months of 2016 before many of the principals started disengaging from the media entirely.
Seriously, it’s not so much getting mad at The Last Jedi, or going out of its way to retcon it. This movie is more or less pretending it didn’t happen, save for the Force Projecting. Everything else is basically a race to answer a checklist of the main questions (whether they were already addressed or not) posed by The Force Awakens as fans understood them in 2016:
“Who is Snoke and what is his backstory?”
“What is Rey’s parentage and how did she wind up there?”
“Why is Rey so strong in the force” (The “Mary Sue” complaint, basically)
“Do Rey and Kylo want to kiss?” (This became “Reylo” eventually)
“Is Finn Force sensitive?”
“Who are the Knights of Ren?”
“What was Luke doing for all that time?”That’s literally all this film IS about. Answering those questions. But the answers to those questions don’t POINT anywhere thematic or even mythical. They’re just plot - pure plot - and that’s why this movie feels so empty, emotionally. And that emptiness is compounded by the fact the answers they arrived at (and then rushed through) depend on more or less ignoring a better film that answered some of these questions much more simply and effectively, and most importantly, THEMATICALLY.
Good post…The reason for my emotional response to the movie has mostly to do with the fan service to the OT and the feelings of nostalgia it created for me.
I agree this is a flawed entry into the saga but then again it at least made me feel something. The PT’s rarely if ever did.
The more I think about this movie, the less sense it makes. The Sith dagger is one of the most baffling plot points for me. So Ochi wrote the location of the wayfinder on the dagger, and also designed the dagger to resemble the skyline of the Death Star wreckage? Why? As far as I can tell, nothing in the movie explains this.
Palpatine’s plan is confusing too. First he wants Rey dead, but later he wants to transfer his soul into her body. Rey eventually kills him, but his spirit doesn’t possess her body.
Also, how did Palpatine raise such a huge fleet all on his own on Exegol? Who’s piloting all those ships? Who is training all the Sith troopers? Who is developing all the new weapons? I can buy the empire or the first order having a massive military because they’re ruling over many different planets. It’s a bit tougher to swallow one planet raising an army substantially larger than the first order.
The dagger scene outlining the death star made no sense to me…Wreckage tends to continue to, well wreck as time goes by.
I posted what I think is my favorite review of this movie earlier, but its author tweeted something that is very relevant to the discussion.
https://twitter.com/mangiotto/status/1207423051404431360
"The thing about giving fans what they want is it holds a mirror up to the sad limits of a fan’s imagination. Not just for possible paths to evolve their objects of veneration, but for their own potential growth as human beings. “Look! Look! This is all you think you deserve.”
That’s an effective description of the creative impulse behind this movie. It really is.
(that review, again, if you missed it: https://www.filmfreakcentral.net/ffc/2019/12/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker.html)
I’m not attacking you but this guy’s sanctimony is off the chart. People didn’t reject TLJ because their emotional maturity wasn’t up to the task - they rejected it because they thought it was a badly written mess. Yes, it had some great ideas, but it was a car-crash of a film (for many) in terms of plot, tone, lore, characters etc etc. This whole “you’re just not sophisticated enough to understand it” thing is total nonsense. I really enjoyed TROS because it was to me (a fan since '77) a great SW movie that pretty much exemplified what I wish ROTJ had been. Plus (IMO) it cleaned up the mess Rian Johnson left behind. I don’t need some guy telling me that it it’s because I’m riddled by sad limitations and am happy to stunt my own growth as a human being!
“People didn’t reject TLJ because their emotional maturity wasn’t up to the task”
Some people obviously did though. The idea that NOBODY did that doesn’t make any sense. It’s an overstatement you’re making in response to an overstatement he’s making to arrive at one of his bigger points (which I find lucid and relevant). It’s not total nonsense to suggest people didn’t understand the Last Jedi, especially not in the face of two years of people very loudly not understanding it in front of as many people as possible.
There’s no point in attempting to reject observable reality simply because it doesn’t align with your personal viewpoint. You’re not the people he’s talking about, and that’s fine. You don’t need to then try and further argue that the people he’s talking about don’t, and have never, existed. They did, and they still do. You aren’t among their number, and don’t need to count yourself among them for your opinions to have validity.
I don’t take your arguments against the review as an attack at all, but I do think trying to erase the group of people he’s talking about doesn’t help anything.
Further - I don’t think there’s anything really sanctimonious about the tone of the review at all because he’s also describing how he understands, and sometimes indulges, in the headspace he’s also criticizing. He’s saying that he’s been there, and he still visits semi-frequently, but it’s because he knows of what he speaks that he’s able (and willing) to make the criticisms he’s making.
“People didn’t reject TLJ because their emotional maturity wasn’t up to the task”
Some people obviously did though. The idea that NOBODY did that doesn’t make any sense. It’s an overstatement you’re making in response to an overstatement he’s making to arrive at one of his bigger points (which I find lucid and relevant). It’s not total nonsense to suggest people didn’t understand the Last Jedi, especially not in the face of two years of people very loudly not understanding it in front of as many people as possible.
There’s no point in attempting to reject observable reality simply because it doesn’t align with your personal viewpoint. You’re not the people he’s talking about, and that’s fine. You don’t need to then try and further argue that the people he’s talking about don’t, and have never, existed. They did, and they still do. You aren’t among their number, and don’t need to count yourself among them for your opinions to have validity.
I don’t take your arguments against the review as an attack at all, but I do think trying to erase the group of people he’s talking about doesn’t help anything.
Further - I don’t think there’s anything really sanctimonious about the tone of the review at all because he’s also describing how he understands, and sometimes indulges, in the headspace he’s also criticizing. He’s saying that he’s been there, and he still visits semi-frequently, but it’s because he knows of what he speaks that he’s able (and willing) to make the criticisms he’s making.
Well I can only run with my own anecdotal observations obviously, but the criticisms of TLJ seem (to me) to be pretty consistent and very rarely in the meta realm. I don’t see anyone saying for instance that Luke couldn’t be broken and dejected, or that Leia couldn’t have Force abilities, or that a slow chase wasn’t possible or that the legend of Luke Skywalker and the Jedi couldn’t use an overhaul. I only ever see the same stuff about character and lore and plot holes and the like. It’s generally surface stuff rather than fans balking at brave ideas. But again that’s just my observation and I accept your point about my generalisations.
There’s a wider point that I think many reviewers are ignoring - TROS exists within an established realm. For example I actually don’t like many aspects of where SW has ended up. I still cringe at the ‘Leia as sister’ thing even now, and hate that she’s a Skywalker/Jedi. I hate that the Force is so genetic, or that Force Ghosts have progressed beyond Obi Wan’s casual log-sitting and now control the weather and grasp solid objects! I could go on, but the point I’m making is that I really enjoyed TROS in the context of really liking what it was doing despite not being thrilled with the sandpit the game is now playing out in. Rey being a Palpatine was awesome to me - not because I like the idea of inherited power at all - but because it reconciles how I felt about her insane power levels in the previous films. Her being a Skywalker would not have done the trick for me - her being a baby Sith Lord (an unknown quantity at this point as far as I know) was a great antidote to the rather cavalier writing in the previous instalments. So it’s not really fan-conservatism driving me so much as a desire for a consistent narrative.
But I’m rambling now, sorry! Thanks for the reply!
I just think having Rey’s power being tied to a male bloodline feels so lazy and totally defeats her purpose in my eyes. And regardless if you feel she needs to be related to someone, I think cramming all that information into the last movie was a mistake. If they wanted her to be Rey Palpatine, they should’ve told Rian that’s the direction they want to go in. But once his movie was out and she wasn’t, Abrams should’ve continued painting that picture rather than trying paint over what was already on the canvas.
I just think having Rey’s power being tied to a male bloodline feels so lazy and totally defeats her purpose in my eyes. And regardless if you feel she needs to be related to someone, I think cramming all that information into the last movie was a mistake. If they wanted her to be Rey Palpatine, they should’ve told Rian that’s the direction they want to go in. But once his movie was out and she wasn’t, Abrams should’ve continued painting that picture rather than trying paint over what was already on the canvas.
The problem is, that JJ already felt RJ painted over his canvas, and so JJ painted over RJ’s. This gives the trilogy an even more obvious meta feel with the directors arguing what the direction of Star Wars should be through their work.
To add to my review and thoughts on the film I would like to say that I was hoping Rey and Kylo would somehow eliminate the Jedi and Sith orders as the extreme edges of the force that they are. Ending up with a combination of both. Not sure how that would play out in my head tbh but TROS did attempt to reconcile a smidge of that idea…Abrams just didn’t go far enough imo to see TLJ come to it’s natural conclusion.
The response to TLJ obviously grabbed Disney’s attention because this final movie sure demonstrates it.
I just think having Rey’s power being tied to a male bloodline feels so lazy and totally defeats her purpose in my eyes. And regardless if you feel she needs to be related to someone, I think cramming all that information into the last movie was a mistake. If they wanted her to be Rey Palpatine, they should’ve told Rian that’s the direction they want to go in. But once his movie was out and she wasn’t, Abrams should’ve continued painting that picture rather than trying paint over what was already on the canvas.
I fully believe that she was a nobody when they made TFA, and JJ only made her a Palptine for the sake of TROS.
Yep, and to appease the Mary Sue people.
Yep, and to appease the Mary Sue people.
Exactly.
I just think having Rey’s power being tied to a male bloodline feels so lazy and totally defeats her purpose in my eyes. And regardless if you feel she needs to be related to someone, I think cramming all that information into the last movie was a mistake. If they wanted her to be Rey Palpatine, they should’ve told Rian that’s the direction they want to go in. But once his movie was out and she wasn’t, Abrams should’ve continued painting that picture rather than trying paint over what was already on the canvas.
I actually agree with you in spirit - I’m not sure if you saw my post where I said to Broom Boy that I love the movie but not necessarily the sandpit it’s playing out in. I’ve never liked Force genetics, not since the Leia fiasco of '83! But since this is how it is now, I think the Palpatine connection really ties up Rey’s power levels and behaviour in the previous films. In TLJ she lifts a billion boulders and looks completely surprised. I found this annoying because to me it diminished the importance of training (and Luke’s entire arc) in the previous instalments. Now we know why - she’s a Sith Lord! Even the anger she displayed whilst beating Kylo that first time - the Palpatine connection actually makes all this coherent for me. I agree that these bozos should have written a trilogy before filming it! But I think given what he had to work with, JJ tied it all up really well.
Then why was her father a nobody? Did the power levels just skip a generation?
I just wish fans could accept the Force awakened and things are different now. I feel like the new movies tried to bring back the Force as this mysterious power beyond total understanding, and Abrams ironically fell back on midichlorians. “Rey has Palpatine’s high midichlorian count! It’s gotta be at least 20,000 if not more!”
I appreciate your willingness to discuss this Shopping Maul! Don’t get me wrong, I did have fun with the movie still, these are just some of my issues with it. So I’m not criticizing you or your enjoyment, just the story decisions of the movie.
Yep, and to appease the Mary Sue people.
Which is funny because she’s still overpowered in the first two. I mean, her being related to the Emperor changes nothing.
For a lot of fans it apparently does.
Then why was her father a nobody? Did the power levels just skip a generation?
I just wish fans could accept the Force awakened and things are different now. I feel like the new movies tried to bring back the Force as this mysterious power beyond total understanding, and Abrams ironically fell back on midichlorians. “Rey has Palpatine’s high midichlorian count! It’s gotta be at least 20,000 if not more!”
I appreciate your willingness to discuss this Shopping Maul! Don’t get me wrong, I did have fun with the movie still, these are just some of my issues with it. So I’m not criticizing you or your enjoyment, just the story decisions of the movie.
It infuriates me. Fans can feel however they want. But when it affects the movies? That’s the really annoying shit.
Imagine being Adam Driver, knowing that back in your trailer you have the scripts to “Marriage Story” and “The Report” just sitting there, waiting to be memorized and performed, and that’s the day you have to do a scene where “You’re a Palpatine” has to come out of your mouth.
Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but Kylo Ren’s last words are “Ow.”
Imagine being Adam Driver, knowing that back in your trailer you have the scripts to “Marriage Story” and “The Report” just sitting there, waiting to be memorized and performed, and that’s the day you have to do a scene where “You’re a Palpatine” has to come out of your mouth.
Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but Kylo Ren’s last words are “Ow.”
I think you’re correct. Driver does such a fantastic job here too (as usual). I love the little bits of the Solo influence seeping through in his performance - the pointing, the shrugging. It’s great.
Once he decides he’s going to be Ben he absolutely starts peppering parts of his performance with subtle nods to Harrison Ford, that’s a great call.
Also remember “it’s about family” I think they wanted to make a few thematic points with Rey choosing to be a Skywalker after learning she was a Palpatine. Unfortunately the film is so stuffed with pandering the message never hits deeper than the average Star Wars commercial out now. Remember when people online would quote that whole thing about some extended version of the idiom “blood is thicker than water” that reinterprets the phrase to mean choosing your family is actually what matters? This movie is like that, it’s also about dyads we’ll just sprinkle that word in to fill up any cracks. It’s almost like they got lost in the sauce, the situation is both over complicated and dumbed down at the same time. Maybe it would have been enough that two Jedi fell in love, no Emperor, you can still reinterpret the rule of two but that would be more in the background of lore discussions rather than the forefront of the plot. The characters suffer the same fate as the fans with their obsession with the past. This was what RJ and TLJ fans were talking about when they said things had to move on, whereas JJ feels going forwards means going backwards. My biggest issue with this trilogy will remain how little it gets to be its own thing, I think they should have broken convention split the finale into 2 movies and delayed IX a year, distance from the impulse and panic that reeks from its rushed misguided choices.
Wouldn’t it have been actually hilarious though if Rey redeemed Palp by the end?
“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV
I wanted to share a quote from this interview with JJ Abrams from December 7th, 2015.
I’m not someone who quite understands the science of the Force. To me Star Wars was never about science fiction — it was a spiritual story. And it was more of a fairytale in that regard. For me when I heard Obi-Wan say that the Force surrounds us and binds us all together, there was no judgement about who you were. This was something that we could all access. Being strong with the force didn’t mean something scientific, it meant something spiritual. It meant someone who could believe, someone who could reach down to the depths of your feelings and follow this primal energy that was flowing through all of us. I mean, thats what was said in that first film!
And there I am sitting in the theater at almost 11 years old and that was a powerful notion. And I think this is what your point was, we would like to believe that when shit gets serious, that you could harness that Force I was told surrounds not just some of us but every living thing. And so, I really feel like the assumption that any character needs to have inherited a certain number of midi-chlorians or needs to be part of a bloodline, it’s not that I don’t believe that as part of the canon, I’m just saying that at 11 years old, that wasn’t where my heart was. And so I respect and adhere to the canon but I also say that the Force has always seemed to me to be more inclusive and stronger than that.
It’s hard to believe this is the same guy who decided Rey Palpatine was the right decision for this story.