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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 60

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 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I would find a conflicted Anakin ghost distasteful, as it would severely undermine the ending of ROTJ, which has always been one of my favorite things about SW.

JEDIT: Dom, you make a fair point about the realism, but I do like it a great deal for the archetypical value. It’s more about Luke at that point than Anakin per se. I suppose it’s one of many things that pervade SW with more symbolic value than realistic or intricate.

For me it’s not a matter of realism. It’s a matter of character and story, and I feel it’s fitting for neither. Maybe after ANH it would be okay, but ESB expands beyond mere fairy tale and simple black and white morality. The dark side is serious business and in my mind it’s stronger if Luke has to live without his father as a reminder of where that path takes you than being able to chat with him whenever. Anakin’s death is a lot more effective if we know this is the only chance either of them actually got to speak with each other. For Anakin, after the PT and the “tragedy” of Darth Vader, it feels very wrong for Anakin to turn around and end up with the “cheating death” that sent him down the dark path in the first place. In my mind there’s no poetic justice when he’s 100% forgiven for his misdeeds so easily.

I think it’s just a way to try to recapture the excitement and elation of the throne room finale of ANH, but by this point the saga has evolved and gained a depth that doesn’t support the sort of non-bitter totally sweet celebratory ending of ROTJ.

To bring this back on topic, if IX has an over the top fairy tale happy ending, I don’t think that’s the emotion I’ll necessarily be feeling.

Redemption and forgiveness have always been some of the most important and relevant themes of Star Wars.

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

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Time

I don’t think it would retcon Anakin in any way just to show Ben the dark side is always there, but you can control it instead of it controlling you. His redemption doesn’t mean the temptation magically goes away.
IIRC, there was that business in the ROTS novelization about Mace tapping into the dark side in combat but not be consumed by it.

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Where were you in '77?

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nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I would find a conflicted Anakin ghost distasteful, as it would severely undermine the ending of ROTJ, which has always been one of my favorite things about SW.

JEDIT: Dom, you make a fair point about the realism, but I do like it a great deal for the archetypical value. It’s more about Luke at that point than Anakin per se. I suppose it’s one of many things that pervade SW with more symbolic value than realistic or intricate.

For me it’s not a matter of realism. It’s a matter of character and story, and I feel it’s fitting for neither. Maybe after ANH it would be okay, but ESB expands beyond mere fairy tale and simple black and white morality. The dark side is serious business and in my mind it’s stronger if Luke has to live without his father as a reminder of where that path takes you than being able to chat with him whenever. Anakin’s death is a lot more effective if we know this is the only chance either of them actually got to speak with each other. For Anakin, after the PT and the “tragedy” of Darth Vader, it feels very wrong for Anakin to turn around and end up with the “cheating death” that sent him down the dark path in the first place. In my mind there’s no poetic justice when he’s 100% forgiven for his misdeeds so easily.

I think it’s just a way to try to recapture the excitement and elation of the throne room finale of ANH, but by this point the saga has evolved and gained a depth that doesn’t support the sort of non-bitter totally sweet celebratory ending of ROTJ.

To bring this back on topic, if IX has an over the top fairy tale happy ending, I don’t think that’s the emotion I’ll necessarily be feeling.

Redemption and forgiveness have always been some of the most important and relevant themes of Star Wars.

No shit. But there is such a thing as pushing it too far.

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Time
 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I would find a conflicted Anakin ghost distasteful, as it would severely undermine the ending of ROTJ, which has always been one of my favorite things about SW.

JEDIT: Dom, you make a fair point about the realism, but I do like it a great deal for the archetypical value. It’s more about Luke at that point than Anakin per se. I suppose it’s one of many things that pervade SW with more symbolic value than realistic or intricate.

For me it’s not a matter of realism. It’s a matter of character and story, and I feel it’s fitting for neither. Maybe after ANH it would be okay, but ESB expands beyond mere fairy tale and simple black and white morality. The dark side is serious business and in my mind it’s stronger if Luke has to live without his father as a reminder of where that path takes you than being able to chat with him whenever. Anakin’s death is a lot more effective if we know this is the only chance either of them actually got to speak with each other. For Anakin, after the PT and the “tragedy” of Darth Vader, it feels very wrong for Anakin to turn around and end up with the “cheating death” that sent him down the dark path in the first place. In my mind there’s no poetic justice when he’s 100% forgiven for his misdeeds so easily.

I think it’s just a way to try to recapture the excitement and elation of the throne room finale of ANH, but by this point the saga has evolved and gained a depth that doesn’t support the sort of non-bitter totally sweet celebratory ending of ROTJ.

To bring this back on topic, if IX has an over the top fairy tale happy ending, I don’t think that’s the emotion I’ll necessarily be feeling.

Redemption and forgiveness have always been some of the most important and relevant themes of Star Wars.

But there is such a thing as pushing it too far.

The Star Wars films have always echoed one another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqFLo_bYq0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUTPdeuh0e8

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

Author
Time

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I would find a conflicted Anakin ghost distasteful, as it would severely undermine the ending of ROTJ, which has always been one of my favorite things about SW.

JEDIT: Dom, you make a fair point about the realism, but I do like it a great deal for the archetypical value. It’s more about Luke at that point than Anakin per se. I suppose it’s one of many things that pervade SW with more symbolic value than realistic or intricate.

For me it’s not a matter of realism. It’s a matter of character and story, and I feel it’s fitting for neither. Maybe after ANH it would be okay, but ESB expands beyond mere fairy tale and simple black and white morality. The dark side is serious business and in my mind it’s stronger if Luke has to live without his father as a reminder of where that path takes you than being able to chat with him whenever. Anakin’s death is a lot more effective if we know this is the only chance either of them actually got to speak with each other. For Anakin, after the PT and the “tragedy” of Darth Vader, it feels very wrong for Anakin to turn around and end up with the “cheating death” that sent him down the dark path in the first place. In my mind there’s no poetic justice when he’s 100% forgiven for his misdeeds so easily.

I think it’s just a way to try to recapture the excitement and elation of the throne room finale of ANH, but by this point the saga has evolved and gained a depth that doesn’t support the sort of non-bitter totally sweet celebratory ending of ROTJ.

To bring this back on topic, if IX has an over the top fairy tale happy ending, I don’t think that’s the emotion I’ll necessarily be feeling.

Redemption and forgiveness have always been some of the most important and relevant themes of Star Wars.

But there is such a thing as pushing it too far.

The Star Wars films have always echoed one another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqFLo_bYq0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUTPdeuh0e8

Again, no shit, but this time I’m not sure what your point is.

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Time

I think it would be fascinating to showcase more force ghost “rules” and whatnot. I mean Luke appears to be the only one that sees them in ROTJ. Maybe depending on the soul of the individual, Luke sees Anakin as a Jedi from his prime, but maybe if Leia were to see his force ghost it would be the Sebastian version? Perhaps the whole conflicted force ghost Anakin thing was about exploring that idea, and maybe Kylo kept seeing that for idolizing Vader?

If force ghost Anakin were to return, and I think he should 100% along with Obi-Wan, I think it’d be interesting and satisfying to most people if we look into that aspect of force ghosts and hopefully see Hayden AND Sebastian’s Anakin.

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DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I would find a conflicted Anakin ghost distasteful, as it would severely undermine the ending of ROTJ, which has always been one of my favorite things about SW.

JEDIT: Dom, you make a fair point about the realism, but I do like it a great deal for the archetypical value. It’s more about Luke at that point than Anakin per se. I suppose it’s one of many things that pervade SW with more symbolic value than realistic or intricate.

For me it’s not a matter of realism. It’s a matter of character and story, and I feel it’s fitting for neither. Maybe after ANH it would be okay, but ESB expands beyond mere fairy tale and simple black and white morality. The dark side is serious business and in my mind it’s stronger if Luke has to live without his father as a reminder of where that path takes you than being able to chat with him whenever. Anakin’s death is a lot more effective if we know this is the only chance either of them actually got to speak with each other. For Anakin, after the PT and the “tragedy” of Darth Vader, it feels very wrong for Anakin to turn around and end up with the “cheating death” that sent him down the dark path in the first place. In my mind there’s no poetic justice when he’s 100% forgiven for his misdeeds so easily.

I think it’s just a way to try to recapture the excitement and elation of the throne room finale of ANH, but by this point the saga has evolved and gained a depth that doesn’t support the sort of non-bitter totally sweet celebratory ending of ROTJ.

To bring this back on topic, if IX has an over the top fairy tale happy ending, I don’t think that’s the emotion I’ll necessarily be feeling.

Redemption and forgiveness have always been some of the most important and relevant themes of Star Wars.

But there is such a thing as pushing it too far.

The Star Wars films have always echoed one another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqFLo_bYq0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUTPdeuh0e8

Again, but this time I’m not sure what your point is.

My point is that Star Wars is not about lust or revenge, it’s about redemption, love, and understanding about how good people can go down dark paths. Anakin turned to the Dark Side due to lust of power and the misconceptions that the Jedi didn’t trust him as one of them. He came back because of his son, and sacrificed himself to save Luke. Ben, on the other hand, was lonely, isolated, and for the most part, betrayed by his family. I believe his redemption is more needed than Anakin’s because of how much younger and inexperienced he is compared to his grandfather, as well as the sad events that have occurred in his life. If he does come back to the Light, it is highly likely that he does not die. He hasn’t had a complete story/life yet. There is still more to tell with him, especially with the interesting relationship that has developed between him and Rey.

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

Author
Time

Lesser said:

I think it would be fascinating to showcase more force ghost “rules” and whatnot. I mean Luke appears to be the only one that sees them in ROTJ. Maybe depending on the soul of the individual, Luke sees Anakin as a Jedi from his prime, but maybe if Leia were to see his force ghost it would be the Sebastian version? Perhaps the whole conflicted force ghost Anakin thing was about exploring that idea, and maybe Kylo kept seeing that for idolizing Vader?

If force ghost Anakin were to return, and I think he should 100% along with Obi-Wan, I think it’d be interesting and satisfying to most people if we look into that aspect of force ghosts and hopefully see Hayden AND Sebastian’s Anakin.

I agree with you, but the usages of Force spirits should be small and reduced to a special cameo appearance in Episode IX, as that is not the main focus of the film. Seeing Luke and possibly Anakin is the most we’ll ever see Episode IX.

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

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nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I would find a conflicted Anakin ghost distasteful, as it would severely undermine the ending of ROTJ, which has always been one of my favorite things about SW.

JEDIT: Dom, you make a fair point about the realism, but I do like it a great deal for the archetypical value. It’s more about Luke at that point than Anakin per se. I suppose it’s one of many things that pervade SW with more symbolic value than realistic or intricate.

For me it’s not a matter of realism. It’s a matter of character and story, and I feel it’s fitting for neither. Maybe after ANH it would be okay, but ESB expands beyond mere fairy tale and simple black and white morality. The dark side is serious business and in my mind it’s stronger if Luke has to live without his father as a reminder of where that path takes you than being able to chat with him whenever. Anakin’s death is a lot more effective if we know this is the only chance either of them actually got to speak with each other. For Anakin, after the PT and the “tragedy” of Darth Vader, it feels very wrong for Anakin to turn around and end up with the “cheating death” that sent him down the dark path in the first place. In my mind there’s no poetic justice when he’s 100% forgiven for his misdeeds so easily.

I think it’s just a way to try to recapture the excitement and elation of the throne room finale of ANH, but by this point the saga has evolved and gained a depth that doesn’t support the sort of non-bitter totally sweet celebratory ending of ROTJ.

To bring this back on topic, if IX has an over the top fairy tale happy ending, I don’t think that’s the emotion I’ll necessarily be feeling.

Redemption and forgiveness have always been some of the most important and relevant themes of Star Wars.

But there is such a thing as pushing it too far.

The Star Wars films have always echoed one another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqFLo_bYq0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUTPdeuh0e8

Again, but this time I’m not sure what your point is.

My point is that Star Wars is not about lust or revenge, it’s about redemption, love, and understanding about how good people can go down dark paths. Anakin turned to the Dark Side due to lust of power and the misconceptions that the Jedi didn’t trust him as one of them. He came back because of his son, and sacrificed himself to save Luke. Ben, on the other hand, was lonely, isolated, and for the most part, betrayed by his family. I believe his redemption is more needed than Anakin’s because of how much younger and inexperienced he is compared to his grandfather, as well as the sad events that have occurred in his life. If he does come back to the Light, it is highly likely that he does not die. He hasn’t had a complete story/life yet. There is still more to tell with him, especially with the interesting relationship that has developed between him and Rey.

What does that have to do with what I was talking about? You’re not saying anything I disagree with.

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DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I would find a conflicted Anakin ghost distasteful, as it would severely undermine the ending of ROTJ, which has always been one of my favorite things about SW.

JEDIT: Dom, you make a fair point about the realism, but I do like it a great deal for the archetypical value. It’s more about Luke at that point than Anakin per se. I suppose it’s one of many things that pervade SW with more symbolic value than realistic or intricate.

For me it’s not a matter of realism. It’s a matter of character and story, and I feel it’s fitting for neither. Maybe after ANH it would be okay, but ESB expands beyond mere fairy tale and simple black and white morality. The dark side is serious business and in my mind it’s stronger if Luke has to live without his father as a reminder of where that path takes you than being able to chat with him whenever. Anakin’s death is a lot more effective if we know this is the only chance either of them actually got to speak with each other. For Anakin, after the PT and the “tragedy” of Darth Vader, it feels very wrong for Anakin to turn around and end up with the “cheating death” that sent him down the dark path in the first place. In my mind there’s no poetic justice when he’s 100% forgiven for his misdeeds so easily.

I think it’s just a way to try to recapture the excitement and elation of the throne room finale of ANH, but by this point the saga has evolved and gained a depth that doesn’t support the sort of non-bitter totally sweet celebratory ending of ROTJ.

To bring this back on topic, if IX has an over the top fairy tale happy ending, I don’t think that’s the emotion I’ll necessarily be feeling.

Redemption and forgiveness have always been some of the most important and relevant themes of Star Wars.

But there is such a thing as pushing it too far.

The Star Wars films have always echoed one another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqFLo_bYq0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUTPdeuh0e8

Again, but this time I’m not sure what your point is.

My point is that Star Wars is not about lust or revenge, it’s about redemption, love, and understanding about how good people can go down dark paths. Anakin turned to the Dark Side due to lust of power and the misconceptions that the Jedi didn’t trust him as one of them. He came back because of his son, and sacrificed himself to save Luke. Ben, on the other hand, was lonely, isolated, and for the most part, betrayed by his family. I believe his redemption is more needed than Anakin’s because of how much younger and inexperienced he is compared to his grandfather, as well as the sad events that have occurred in his life. If he does come back to the Light, it is highly likely that he does not die. He hasn’t had a complete story/life yet. There is still more to tell with him, especially with the interesting relationship that has developed between him and Rey.

What does that have to do with what I was talking about? You’re not saying anything I disagree with.

I’m just stating the meaning that Star Wars has had as well as my feelings. Are you saying that you did not like the themes of redemption and Vader’s redemption in Return of the Jedi?

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

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I think Anakin showing up as a force ghost in IX contradicts the canon too much. Qui-Gon invented the technique and taught it to Yoda and Obi-Wan. It’s kind of bizarre that Anakin even shows up in RotJ.

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In one of the novels - “Certain Point of View” I think - I’m pretty sure there’s a chapter where Obi-Wan teaches Anakin how to be one with the force as he’s dying in front of Luke. Not that novels should explain things like this anyway. Even before the prequels, Anakin was the only one of the three that didn’t physically vanish right after death. I don’t really care about it contradicting points since he’s the chosen one anyway.

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I actually have pretty similar feelings to Dom on this point. I always felt the best way to address the issue of young vs old Force ghost Anakin is to not have Anakin as a Force ghost at all. I’m not saying Anakin should never become one, but maybe Anakin could have learned in time, like Qui-Gon apparently did.

So even if we saw Anakin in IX, it wouldn’t necessarily contradict it. Anakin has had time to learn how to manifest himself, like Qui-Gon, since he never learned how when he was alive. Plus, we didn’t see Anakin’s body disappear, like Yoda, Obi-Wan, or Luke.

And I guess you could make an argument about him being the Chosen One, or the netherworld of the Force being beyond the boundaries of time, but still. It apparently took time for Qui-Gon to learn how to do it, but I guess you could argue that once he figured it out he just had to pass that information on to the others. And maybe Qui-Gon had learned how to become a Force ghost quickly, but the “shroud of the dark side” during the rise of Sidious and the Clone Wars was like a barrier that prevented him from making contact, and it wasn’t until some great disturbance in the Force, like the Jedi Purge, that allowed him to pass through that veil. It’s a lot of speculation.

You could even say Anakin spent eons floating around in the netherworld before he learned how to manifest himself, but it was merely an instant in our own reality.

I guess it might boil down to if it felt like Anakin earned it. Yes, I think he was able to find forgiveness, and forgive himself, which allowed for him to move on, similar to Luke. On the other hand, after being evil for so long, you do wonder if he could have spent some time floating in the netherworld as penance before being able to manifest himself.

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nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I would find a conflicted Anakin ghost distasteful, as it would severely undermine the ending of ROTJ, which has always been one of my favorite things about SW.

JEDIT: Dom, you make a fair point about the realism, but I do like it a great deal for the archetypical value. It’s more about Luke at that point than Anakin per se. I suppose it’s one of many things that pervade SW with more symbolic value than realistic or intricate.

For me it’s not a matter of realism. It’s a matter of character and story, and I feel it’s fitting for neither. Maybe after ANH it would be okay, but ESB expands beyond mere fairy tale and simple black and white morality. The dark side is serious business and in my mind it’s stronger if Luke has to live without his father as a reminder of where that path takes you than being able to chat with him whenever. Anakin’s death is a lot more effective if we know this is the only chance either of them actually got to speak with each other. For Anakin, after the PT and the “tragedy” of Darth Vader, it feels very wrong for Anakin to turn around and end up with the “cheating death” that sent him down the dark path in the first place. In my mind there’s no poetic justice when he’s 100% forgiven for his misdeeds so easily.

I think it’s just a way to try to recapture the excitement and elation of the throne room finale of ANH, but by this point the saga has evolved and gained a depth that doesn’t support the sort of non-bitter totally sweet celebratory ending of ROTJ.

To bring this back on topic, if IX has an over the top fairy tale happy ending, I don’t think that’s the emotion I’ll necessarily be feeling.

Redemption and forgiveness have always been some of the most important and relevant themes of Star Wars.

But there is such a thing as pushing it too far.

The Star Wars films have always echoed one another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqFLo_bYq0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUTPdeuh0e8

Again, but this time I’m not sure what your point is.

My point is that Star Wars is not about lust or revenge, it’s about redemption, love, and understanding about how good people can go down dark paths. Anakin turned to the Dark Side due to lust of power and the misconceptions that the Jedi didn’t trust him as one of them. He came back because of his son, and sacrificed himself to save Luke. Ben, on the other hand, was lonely, isolated, and for the most part, betrayed by his family. I believe his redemption is more needed than Anakin’s because of how much younger and inexperienced he is compared to his grandfather, as well as the sad events that have occurred in his life. If he does come back to the Light, it is highly likely that he does not die. He hasn’t had a complete story/life yet. There is still more to tell with him, especially with the interesting relationship that has developed between him and Rey.

What does that have to do with what I was talking about? You’re not saying anything I disagree with.

I’m just stating the meaning that Star Wars has had as well as my feelings. Are you saying that you did not like the themes of redemption and Vader’s redemption in Return of the Jedi?

That’s not what I’m saying at all. I just disagree with giving him a force ghost.

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 (Edited)

One possibility with force ghosts is they aren’t the ones projecting themselves… but rather it is the Jedi who are seeing the dead.

I mean, are you seriosuly telling me out of all the Jedi who fought in the Clone Wars only three were deemed worthy enough of force ghost… when one of them slaughtered millions?

Also see how only Luke notices the ghosts on Endor.

My theory is in the SW universe everyone who dies goes to the afterworld. They cannot interact with the real world unless someone they know has mastery over the force.

So if Rey wanted, she could see a force ghost of Han Solo. Because she calls for guidance from the light or whatever. Same for Ben… he could meet both the ghost of Vader and the ghost of Anakin, because he feels the pull of both sides.

I know this has been deemed uncanon by Yoda’s reference at the end of Ep 3 but Star Wars has changed things in lore before.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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 (Edited)

If we get nitpicky, Ben vanished in while being cut in half. There wasn’t even a bisected body to hit the floor. Yoda took longer to disappear, so there doesn’t seem to be one version of the ultimate Jedi trick. And if we include Qui-Gon, his body was around long enough to be cremated. If it had vanished during the funeral, there would have been a lot of witnesses.

Is it 100% for certain Anakin’s body was still in the armor when Luke burned it? The presumption has long been the body vanished during the bonfire. Seems to me if there were any bone fragments left over, Ben would have recovered them along with the mask.

The first time I saw TFA, I thought this might actually be Anakin’s ashes.

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Since we’re discussing Force Ghosts I want to point out that Force Ghosts have only manifested themselves to Jedi who knew them in life.

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OutboundFlight said:

One possibility with force ghosts is they aren’t the ones projecting themselves… but rather it is the Jedi who are seeing the dead.

I mean, are you seriosuly telling me out of all the Jedi who fought in the Clone Wars only three were deemed worthy enough of force ghost… when one of them slaughtered millions?

Also see how only Luke notices the ghosts on Endor.

My theory is in the SW universe everyone who dies goes to the afterworld. They cannot interact with the real world unless someone they know has mastery over the force.

So if Rey wanted, she could see a force ghost of Han Solo. Because she calls for guidance from the light or whatever. Same for Ben… he could meet both the ghost of Vader and the ghost of Anakin, because he feels the pull of both sides.

I know this has been deemed uncanon by Yoda’s reference at the end of Ep 3 but Star Wars has changed things in lore before.

Great post! If it happens, I think it’s going to be Ben who somehow summons Anakin. With Snoke presumably gone, he’s still looking for something, and I doubt he’s abandoned his worship of Vader.

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

OutboundFlight said:

One possibility with force ghosts is they aren’t the ones projecting themselves… but rather it is the Jedi who are seeing the dead.

I mean, are you seriosuly telling me out of all the Jedi who fought in the Clone Wars only three were deemed worthy enough of force ghost… when one of them slaughtered millions?

Also see how only Luke notices the ghosts on Endor.

My theory is in the SW universe everyone who dies goes to the afterworld. They cannot interact with the real world unless someone they know has mastery over the force.

So if Rey wanted, she could see a force ghost of Han Solo. Because she calls for guidance from the light or whatever. Same for Ben… he could meet both the ghost of Vader and the ghost of Anakin, because he feels the pull of both sides.

I know this has been deemed uncanon by Yoda’s reference at the end of Ep 3 but Star Wars has changed things in lore before.

Great post! If it happens, I think it’s going to be Ben who somehow summons Anakin. With Snoke presumably gone, he’s still looking for something, and I doubt he’s abandoned his worship of Vader.

I think Ben’s “Let the past die” comments contradict him looking for Vader’s guidance. Though he’s in charge of what’s basically a neo-Empire. So maybe his whole philosophy is more about angst and less about consistency.

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DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I would find a conflicted Anakin ghost distasteful, as it would severely undermine the ending of ROTJ, which has always been one of my favorite things about SW.

JEDIT: Dom, you make a fair point about the realism, but I do like it a great deal for the archetypical value. It’s more about Luke at that point than Anakin per se. I suppose it’s one of many things that pervade SW with more symbolic value than realistic or intricate.

For me it’s not a matter of realism. It’s a matter of character and story, and I feel it’s fitting for neither. Maybe after ANH it would be okay, but ESB expands beyond mere fairy tale and simple black and white morality. The dark side is serious business and in my mind it’s stronger if Luke has to live without his father as a reminder of where that path takes you than being able to chat with him whenever. Anakin’s death is a lot more effective if we know this is the only chance either of them actually got to speak with each other. For Anakin, after the PT and the “tragedy” of Darth Vader, it feels very wrong for Anakin to turn around and end up with the “cheating death” that sent him down the dark path in the first place. In my mind there’s no poetic justice when he’s 100% forgiven for his misdeeds so easily.

I think it’s just a way to try to recapture the excitement and elation of the throne room finale of ANH, but by this point the saga has evolved and gained a depth that doesn’t support the sort of non-bitter totally sweet celebratory ending of ROTJ.

To bring this back on topic, if IX has an over the top fairy tale happy ending, I don’t think that’s the emotion I’ll necessarily be feeling.

Redemption and forgiveness have always been some of the most important and relevant themes of Star Wars.

But there is such a thing as pushing it too far.

The Star Wars films have always echoed one another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqFLo_bYq0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUTPdeuh0e8

Again, but this time I’m not sure what your point is.

My point is that Star Wars is not about lust or revenge, it’s about redemption, love, and understanding about how good people can go down dark paths. Anakin turned to the Dark Side due to lust of power and the misconceptions that the Jedi didn’t trust him as one of them. He came back because of his son, and sacrificed himself to save Luke. Ben, on the other hand, was lonely, isolated, and for the most part, betrayed by his family. I believe his redemption is more needed than Anakin’s because of how much younger and inexperienced he is compared to his grandfather, as well as the sad events that have occurred in his life. If he does come back to the Light, it is highly likely that he does not die. He hasn’t had a complete story/life yet. There is still more to tell with him, especially with the interesting relationship that has developed between him and Rey.

What does that have to do with what I was talking about? You’re not saying anything I disagree with.

I’m just stating the meaning that Star Wars has had as well as my feelings. Are you saying that you did not like the themes of redemption and Vader’s redemption in Return of the Jedi?

That’s not what I’m saying at all. I just disagree with giving him a force ghost.

Why, though? He died as a hero and I believe Obi-Wan and Yoda allowed him to become a visible spirit in the Force.

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

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Zachary VIII said:

SilverWook said:

OutboundFlight said:

One possibility with force ghosts is they aren’t the ones projecting themselves… but rather it is the Jedi who are seeing the dead.

I mean, are you seriosuly telling me out of all the Jedi who fought in the Clone Wars only three were deemed worthy enough of force ghost… when one of them slaughtered millions?

Also see how only Luke notices the ghosts on Endor.

My theory is in the SW universe everyone who dies goes to the afterworld. They cannot interact with the real world unless someone they know has mastery over the force.

So if Rey wanted, she could see a force ghost of Han Solo. Because she calls for guidance from the light or whatever. Same for Ben… he could meet both the ghost of Vader and the ghost of Anakin, because he feels the pull of both sides.

I know this has been deemed uncanon by Yoda’s reference at the end of Ep 3 but Star Wars has changed things in lore before.

Great post! If it happens, I think it’s going to be Ben who somehow summons Anakin. With Snoke presumably gone, he’s still looking for something, and I doubt he’s abandoned his worship of Vader.

I think Ben’s “Let the past die” comments contradict him looking for Vader’s guidance. Though he’s in charge of what’s basically a neo-Empire. So maybe his whole philosophy is more about angst and less about consistency.

When Ben destroyed his mask, that was a symbolism of him ditching his ways as being a Darth Vader impersonator. He was berated by Snoke, and while I still believe he looks up to Anakin as Vader, he isn’t going to go around wearing a mask anymore, as he has become his own self, yet still conflicted inside. I really hope Ben doesn’t start wearing the Kylo Ren mask in Episode IX, as its backtracking on himself as a character, like nothing has happened to make him decide to stop acting like Vader.

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

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 (Edited)

This also brings up the question of who can even see Force ghosts?

Leia apparently couldn’t see them at the end of ROTJ, so is it a matter of one’s own ability with the Force? Maybe Force ghosts can choose who they appear to? Maybe it is a bit of both, since Yoda couldn’t appear to Luke until he reconnected with the Force.

To build onto that, I personally like the idea that Force ghosts can only appear to people they knew while they were alive. This might seem limiting, but I think there needs to be some kind of limit, because without one it kind of lowers the stakes of Luke’s importance. For example, even if Luke didn’t pass on what he learned, Yoda or Obi-Wan could just appear to anyone who was strong enough with the Force and teach them how to be a Jedi even after Luke was dead and gone. But, if Luke dies without teaching anyone, then that knowledge will be lost forever.

But now that Rey has met Luke, Luke will be able to come to her as a Force ghost and continue her training in IX, presumably.

This idea would also explain why Luke didn’t see Qui-Gon at the end of ROTJ. A Certain Point of View showed us that Qui-Gon had learned to manifest himself by the time of ANH, but despite that we don’t see him at the end of ROTJ.

To continue, if you carried this idea forward, that would also mean that Kylo Ren/Ben Solo couldn’t see Anakin since he never met him. But, it would kind of answer why Anakin never appeared to him before to stop him from going down that path in the first place. And maybe someone’s depth within the dark side almost makes contact difficult or impossible. This would explain why Obi-Wan or Yoda couldn’t help Luke fight Vader and Palpatine. Obi says in ESB that if Luke faces Vader that he can’t interfere. Yes, you could argue that there are “certain rules” he can’t break, but I just personally like the idea that dark siders can create “interference” that make it difficult for Force ghosts to manifest near them. This would help explain why Force ghosts can really appear to give advice and not really help in a battle with dark siders.

Also, maybe Force ghosts are both an independent manifestation of the Force, but they also can only manifest physically by using a living Force-sensitive individual as a conduit. Yoda not being able to appear to Luke until he reconnected would explain that. If Yoda was solely an independent manifestation, Luke’s own connection to the Force wouldn’t have mattered. And clearly it comes down to the individual, because Rey, another strong Force-user, her presence didn’t allow Yoda to manifest in front of Luke, either. And Yoda never appeared for Rey to give her advice on how to get through to Luke. Sure, you can say that Yoda wanted her to figure it out on her own, but I think physical limits to her abilities would allow you not have to to resort to handwavey explanations.

Maybe in extreme situations the rules can be bent, like in visions or dreams. Sort of like how Rey hears whispers of Obi-Wan during the Force vision. So maybe Kylo could still see Anakin/Vader in a dream or vision, but not in a regular old conversation.

A Force-user’s perception could also possibly effect how the Force ghost is manifested. So Force ghosts could either choose how they want to appear, or maybe the conduit’s own imagination or memory of an individual could effect how they appear to them. If Luke had saw old holograms of young Anakin Skywalker, it could also explain why Luke perceived him that way in ROTJ. But the canon seems to imply their appearance is the ghost’s own choice, so maybe Anakin just wanted to appear young.

I think the writers will do whatever is necessary for the story, but I do think Force ghosts need some kind of limitations in-universe. Otherwise, they become a Deus Ex Machina that raises questions of why they didn’t just do this or that in the story.

We know Luke will appear as a Force ghost in IX, so maybe the extent of his abilities will broaden our view on Force ghosts and throw all my ideas out the window. This is just how I like to perceive it as of now.

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nl0428 said:

When Ben destroyed his mask, that was a symbolism of him ditching his ways as being a Darth Vader impersonator. He was berated by Snoke, and while I still believe he looks up to Anakin as Vader, he isn’t going to go around wearing a mask anymore, as he has become his own self, yet still conflicted inside. I really hope Ben doesn’t start wearing the Kylo Ren mask in Episode IX, as its backtracking on himself as a character, like nothing has happened to make him decide to stop acting like Vader.

Or, Ben has regressed to needing to hide behind a mask after Rey’s rejection. I don’t think Kylo will be in a good place emotionally when we see him in IX, so he could be using the mask as a reforged identity.

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nl0428 said:

Zachary VIII said:

SilverWook said:

OutboundFlight said:

One possibility with force ghosts is they aren’t the ones projecting themselves… but rather it is the Jedi who are seeing the dead.

I mean, are you seriosuly telling me out of all the Jedi who fought in the Clone Wars only three were deemed worthy enough of force ghost… when one of them slaughtered millions?

Also see how only Luke notices the ghosts on Endor.

My theory is in the SW universe everyone who dies goes to the afterworld. They cannot interact with the real world unless someone they know has mastery over the force.

So if Rey wanted, she could see a force ghost of Han Solo. Because she calls for guidance from the light or whatever. Same for Ben… he could meet both the ghost of Vader and the ghost of Anakin, because he feels the pull of both sides.

I know this has been deemed uncanon by Yoda’s reference at the end of Ep 3 but Star Wars has changed things in lore before.

Great post! If it happens, I think it’s going to be Ben who somehow summons Anakin. With Snoke presumably gone, he’s still looking for something, and I doubt he’s abandoned his worship of Vader.

I think Ben’s “Let the past die” comments contradict him looking for Vader’s guidance. Though he’s in charge of what’s basically a neo-Empire. So maybe his whole philosophy is more about angst and less about consistency.

I really hope Ben doesn’t start wearing the Kylo Ren mask in Episode IX, as its backtracking on himself as a character, like nothing has happened to make him decide to stop acting like Vader.

I’m afraid there is some legit looking concept art floating around that seems to show Ben wearing a cracked mask. I really hope it doesn’t make it to the final product.

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Time

Zachary VIII said:

nl0428 said:

Zachary VIII said:

SilverWook said:

OutboundFlight said:

One possibility with force ghosts is they aren’t the ones projecting themselves… but rather it is the Jedi who are seeing the dead.

I mean, are you seriosuly telling me out of all the Jedi who fought in the Clone Wars only three were deemed worthy enough of force ghost… when one of them slaughtered millions?

Also see how only Luke notices the ghosts on Endor.

My theory is in the SW universe everyone who dies goes to the afterworld. They cannot interact with the real world unless someone they know has mastery over the force.

So if Rey wanted, she could see a force ghost of Han Solo. Because she calls for guidance from the light or whatever. Same for Ben… he could meet both the ghost of Vader and the ghost of Anakin, because he feels the pull of both sides.

I know this has been deemed uncanon by Yoda’s reference at the end of Ep 3 but Star Wars has changed things in lore before.

Great post! If it happens, I think it’s going to be Ben who somehow summons Anakin. With Snoke presumably gone, he’s still looking for something, and I doubt he’s abandoned his worship of Vader.

I think Ben’s “Let the past die” comments contradict him looking for Vader’s guidance. Though he’s in charge of what’s basically a neo-Empire. So maybe his whole philosophy is more about angst and less about consistency.

I really hope Ben doesn’t start wearing the Kylo Ren mask in Episode IX, as its backtracking on himself as a character, like nothing has happened to make him decide to stop acting like Vader.

I’m afraid there is some legit looking concept art floating around that seems to show Ben wearing a cracked mask. I really hope it doesn’t make it to the final product.

I know. I’ve seen it.

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.