Rey and Jedi Training — Page 2

SSBB1123 said:

Sorry, I’m probably forgetting some line of dialogue, but when does yoda confirm in ROTJ that luke going to help leia and han(on bespin I presume), was a good thing? Doesn’t he actually say that it was unfortunate that he went there because his training was incomplete?

You know, I just watched it again and it’s actually very strange.

In ROTJ, Luke return to Dagobah and says he’s come back to complete his training, to which Yoda replies:
“No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need.”

However, after Luke has Yoda confirm that Darth Vader is his father, Yoda says that it’s unfortunate that Luke rushed off to face Vader without completing his training. So which is it?!
He also adds “Not ready for the burden were you.”

I had always interpreted Yoda’s first response as being to condone Luke’s fortitude in following his moral compass (to Bespin) despite the objections of his mentors. That it may have even been a test of his character that he passed. With the “unfortunate” dialogue a few lines later, I’m not entirely sure anymore what Yoda really thinks about whether Luke was ready or not.

Shopping Maul said:

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

Creox said:
Here’s a thought. Perhaps her and Kylo are the epitome of force users. She’s not a Mary sue but the last conduit for the force, light and dark. She is the first to access and use the full potential of it?

I’m not sure what you mean by this, but if Rey and Kylo are simply lucky enough to be imbued with all this power, it becomes rather uninteresting if there are no consequences.

What do you mean no consequences? Who said that?

And again it diminishes Luke. It’s as if the saga is saying that Jedi greatness isn’t that difficult to attain after all, and that Luke was simply a lousy candidate.

Well first of all, Yoda does actually say outright that Luke is a lousy candidate. Second, powers =/= greatness.

Well the first six films - however ham-fisted in the telling - make a huge deal about training and how the wrong mind-set can have disastrous consequences when it comes to striving for Jedi-hood. The OT is about Luke’s growth from naive farmboy who craves adventure to a Zen master who wants to redeem his fallen father. And he suffers tremendous failures along the way. Anakin’s story charts that of a child prodigy whose emotional issues lead to ruin, despite his incredible talent.

Rey is just super-powerful. That’s it. No anger-issues or barriers or emotional/ego pitfalls from having lived like Conan the Barbarian on Jakku. She just nails it every time, and over two days! Sure, she’s sad about her parents, but it proves no hinderance whatsoever to her progress as an instant Jedi.

You’re missing the point. Rey’s goal in the story is not to become a super powerful Jedi.

So power does equal greatness in this trilogy (so far at least).

In what possible way is that true? Kylo is clearly very powerful but is he a great Jedi?

Meanwhile Kylo is the same angry psycho that he was in TFA.

I mean, I guess if you reducing characters to flippantly described personality traits it’s easy to see why you’d misunderstand what’s going on.

Rian Johnson stated that he saw both Rey and Kylo as the protagonists of the ST. And they essentially form two halves of one whole. It is stated that they both have potential the likes of which haven’t been seen before, but they both end up doing very different things with it. If you want to talk about consequence, look at Ben, and what his desire for the power of the dark side as left him with. Whereas Rey is the opposite, she didn’t want the power, but it was thrust upon her. She just wants a family, while Ben struggles to cut ties with his the best he can. In a way, you almost have to look at their stories as a unit, and how they compare and contrast.

Ultimately to me it’s weird to see people complain about rehashed elements that to me are mostly minor window dressing stuff (basic plot similarities and such) while simultaneously complaining that more important things (like character arcs) aren’t being rehashed. Well, to me, we’ve already had two trilogies where the story is that the main character has had to learn discipline in gaining their powers, one where it goes right, one where it goes wrong. I like how in this trilogy we’re getting something different.

Yes, Yoda did denounce Luke as a candidate, and Luke proved him wrong. That’s the beauty of Luke’s arc.

Unfortunately if you ask me this is where the OT slightly falters, as the gap from Luke initially proving Yoda right and making a big mistake to Luke being a wizened Jedi knight is not really covered. Hopefully IX sticks the landing better than ROTJ.

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

Creox said:
Here’s a thought. Perhaps her and Kylo are the epitome of force users. She’s not a Mary sue but the last conduit for the force, light and dark. She is the first to access and use the full potential of it?

I’m not sure what you mean by this, but if Rey and Kylo are simply lucky enough to be imbued with all this power, it becomes rather uninteresting if there are no consequences.

What do you mean no consequences? Who said that?

And again it diminishes Luke. It’s as if the saga is saying that Jedi greatness isn’t that difficult to attain after all, and that Luke was simply a lousy candidate.

Well first of all, Yoda does actually say outright that Luke is a lousy candidate. Second, powers =/= greatness.

Well the first six films - however ham-fisted in the telling - make a huge deal about training and how the wrong mind-set can have disastrous consequences when it comes to striving for Jedi-hood. The OT is about Luke’s growth from naive farmboy who craves adventure to a Zen master who wants to redeem his fallen father. And he suffers tremendous failures along the way. Anakin’s story charts that of a child prodigy whose emotional issues lead to ruin, despite his incredible talent.

Rey is just super-powerful. That’s it. No anger-issues or barriers or emotional/ego pitfalls from having lived like Conan the Barbarian on Jakku. She just nails it every time, and over two days! Sure, she’s sad about her parents, but it proves no hinderance whatsoever to her progress as an instant Jedi.

You’re missing the point. Rey’s goal in the story is not to become a super powerful Jedi.

Yeah, but that makes it even worse! What happened to “to be a Jedi takes the deepest commitment, the most serious mind”? Again, this just diminishes what has gone before.

So power does equal greatness in this trilogy (so far at least).

In what possible way is that true? Kylo is clearly very powerful but is he a great Jedi?

He doesn’t want to be a great Jedi. Kylo wants to be Vader, and he has worked hard at being such. What’s absurd is that his ‘equal in the light’ didn’t have to train or give the whole thing a second thought in order to be his equal.

Meanwhile Kylo is the same angry psycho that he was in TFA.

I mean, I guess if you reducing characters to flippantly described personality traits it’s easy to see why you’d misunderstand what’s going on.

Rian Johnson stated that he saw both Rey and Kylo as the protagonists of the ST. And they essentially form two halves of one whole. It is stated that they both have potential the likes of which haven’t been seen before, but they both end up doing very different things with it. If you want to talk about consequence, look at Ben, and what his desire for the power of the dark side as left him with. Whereas Rey is the opposite, she didn’t want the power, but it was thrust upon her. She just wants a family, while Ben struggles to cut ties with his the best he can. In a way, you almost have to look at their stories as a unit, and how they compare and contrast.

Ultimately to me it’s weird to see people complain about rehashed elements that to me are mostly minor window dressing stuff (basic plot similarities and such) while simultaneously complaining that more important things (like character arcs) aren’t being rehashed. Well, to me, we’ve already had two trilogies where the story is that the main character has had to learn discipline in gaining their powers, one where it goes right, one where it goes wrong. I like how in this trilogy we’re getting something different.

Yes, Yoda did denounce Luke as a candidate, and Luke proved him wrong. That’s the beauty of Luke’s arc.

Unfortunately if you ask me this is where the OT slightly falters, as the gap from Luke initially proving Yoda right and making a big mistake to Luke being a wizened Jedi knight is not really covered. Hopefully IX sticks the landing better than ROTJ.

I absolutely agree re ROTJ, and I feel the same about the new trilogy. The arcs you describe for Rey and Kylo above are cool in theory - just like Luke’s becoming a wizened Jedi in ROTJ - but it feels really half-baked. It’s like the writers are just throwing ideas out there willy nilly and letting the fans fill the gaps and write the lore themselves (which is exactly what we had to do when Luke suddenly required no more training in ROTJ or when Leia was suddenly ‘the other’). I think this trilogy would be infinitely better if they’d plotted it out first rather than just free-styling ideas.

But the Force thing is my own beef. I get that many fans don’t mind the Force having godlike agency, or powers just being easily acquired by anyone. I just prefer the TESB vibe and think that a reasonable (though not necessarily constrained dogmatically) adherence to this would’ve created a more consistent SW universe.