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Evil Empire... — Page 3

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Well I am sorry you've fallen for that lie, Motti. You must be living in a delusion.

The war in Iraq is perfectly justified. Saddam Hussein is an evil man. He killed his own people. He wanted WMDs whether he had them or not. If you are too blind to see that then I pity you. Obviously you must deeply hate Bush or America to think the war in Iraq is about oil. We will go after the other terrorists eventually. And since when has the IRA attacked America?

Now darn it, Motti, I put up my Lightsaber don't make me get it back out.
Just forget it. You can't persuade me and I can't persuade you.
If you still feel you must have the last word, fine. I'm gone.

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Originally posted by: motti_soL
chaltab... bush's "holy war on terrorism" is nothing but a scam and a curtain of lies. if he really wanted to get rid of terrorism then why not go after the IRA? the Tchechen terrorist? Blakan terrorist? you know why? because there is no oil.

the strike against afghanistan was pure and simple revenge with a shitload of overkill...

the invasion of iraq is unjustified and unconstitutional...


Motti, what were we supposed to do, let 911 go unpunished? I understand your position on Iraq. But you can't be against going after Bin Laden. Was Afghanistan revenge? yeah so? 3000 inocent people were killed, the nation is stll fearfull of another attack, And Afghanistan was harboring the bastards. We had to do somthing. Also may Iraq is unjustified but how is it unconstitutional?
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Originally posted by: motti_soL
chaltab... bush's "holy war on terrorism" is nothing but a scam and a curtain of lies. if he really wanted to get rid of terrorism then why not go after the IRA? the Tchechen terrorist? Blakan terrorist? you know why? because there is no oil.

maybe because the IRA didn't fly Airplanes into buildings and kill over 3000 people

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
I am also sick of people saying that the president lied or had sinister intentions for going into Iraq.

Of course he didn't say in the report dated April 2001, few months before the horror of 9/11, that "Iraq is our primary goal now and military solution is possible". Sure, I made this up. There is no spoon. Darth Sidious and Palpatine are NOT the same person.
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
George W. Bush is our nation's greates president...

err... no comment...
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
It is obvious that y'all will continue to ignore the greater implications of the *worldwide* War agianst Terrorism...
(...)
And the reason we helped Al Qaeda back in the 80s is because the Soviets were our enemies then.
(...)
And since when has the IRA attacked America?

I just love people repeating words about "global holy war against terrorism" etc., yet uncovering their real way of thinking in the process. They're literally feeding you with a spoon from that TV set...
From your words we can say that:
1. If Al-Qaeda was to strike USSR in 1980s, hitting the Red Square with jumbo-jets and thus killing thousands of civillians - it would be fine, right, after all Ruskies were baddies then? oh, that's cool...
2. It's immoral to think of the terrorists otherwise than as of murderers that should be exterminated, but when we needed their help, supplying them with weapons was OK... hey! on the war every way of reaching your goal is fair and square, right?
3. All terrorists who are not against USA are harmless. Thus all terrorists who were/are against enemies of the America the beautiful are OK, coz they help us in a way with their dirty tricks.
Remember, my friend, do not mistake patriotism with nationalism... coz nationalism breeds people like the Euro guy with moustache from 1930s... you know, that Chaplin-lookalike
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
Obviously you must deeply hate Bush or America to think the war in Iraq is about oil.

Damn, I was always pro-US, yet I see the connection between "intervention in Iraq" and "US profits, oil shipments". Accusing somebody of hate just because he sees things in a different way is the common method of those so-called patriots, who are usually covert warmongers, happy to instill rage against anybody who might think otherwise.
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
You must be living in a delusion.

And not only he does, my friend
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
If you are too blind to see that then I pity you.

...and vice versa, my friend... by the way: how old are you, man?
I saw the original theatrical release of the Old Trilogy on the big screen and I'm proud of it...
How did I accomplish that (considering my age) is my secret...
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I don't know much about what we did to help Al-Qaeda back in the 80s . Even if we, does that mean we are supposed to nothing when they attack us? As for how we would a 911 happening to the Ussr in the 80's. How would the Ussr have reacted if a 911 had happened to the USA also back in the 80's. Also how would we react to a 911 happening to Germany in the 1930's?

The point is this what nation is the world is not going to go after a terrorist group that attacks it? Are you going to tell me that if Al-Qaeda flew planes into building in Paris that france would not go after them? come on.

oh, and don't confuse me Chaltab. I am no Bush yes-man.
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I don't want to be thought of as a Bush yes-man either, but...

We helped the Afghans to stop the spread of communism but THEY WEREN'T TERRORISTS at the time. Then they were the victims. Our evil murderous enemy was invading them and it was in our best interest at the time to stop the Soviets. But now, they have killed thousands of innocent people after we helped those ungraful bladders in the cold war. So now we will find them and kill everyone that we can't capture. And note that George W. Bush didn't do that.

I am not giving the IRA a free pass, but I would hope that Ireland could do something about them themsleves. The IRA arent' international terrrorists and aren't an immediate threat to America. And they aren't apart of a sadistic regime. I'm not saying they don't deserve justice. Actually I don't really know much about them.

RRs, I am sixteen if you must know. Yes. Laugh if you want. Dismiss me as a stupid child. I don't care.And RRS. You took what I said out of context. Bush Jr. is our best president since Reagan. His father was too soft in the first war inIraq and he raised taxes after promising not to. And don't get me started on Clinton. So by saying he is our best president since Reagan isn't saying a whole lot anyway. And maybe you don't hate America but there are some people out there who do, even if they won't admit it to themselves. I know the US isn't guiltless but we have been on the right side of every war we've been involved in. We nevered conquered another country.

Why does the USSR keep coming up? The Soviet Union collapsed ten years before Bush became president. He had nothing to do with our foreign policy then.


Finally. What is wrong with the US profiting from something? Why is something good for the US something bad for you? Even if GWB is some evil freak who just wants to wage wars, the war rescued something like thirty million people from a sadistic dictator. So he did the right thing even if he had the worst of motives. But I believe his motives were what they said they were, and I suppose that is the fundamental difference between our opinions.



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chaltab, i dont hate america or the us, i hate the bush administration and the fascist liars that frequently visit the oval office.

you resuced 30 million from an evil man? then why are they fighting you as well now?

yes saddam hussein was not the best of children, but he is NO WORSE than george w bush. SH wants WMD's? what about india and pakistan also having WMD's now? what about israel? oh no, right, sorry, israel is the USA's friend, so they get carte blanche in the middle east.

warbler, im not saying that 9/11 should go unpunished, but does it justify to bomb a country already in the stone age back to the jurassic age?

chaltab, everybody wants their share of the pie in rebuilding iraq, because nobody trusts the USA anymore to do it for the right reason. why does halliburton want that deal so much? hmm... and why wont bush listen to the french? "let the iraqis decide"...
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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The simple answer to all of this goes much deeper than Bush. As the largest free state in the world, the US has taken on the role of "defender of freedom" whether the rest of us like it or not. Most of us thought that after Vietnam that the US should know better, but it still hasn't figured it out. This attitude has created a lot of animosity, which finally reached fever pitch with 9/11. Instead of realising that backing down and admitting that it can't solve all the world's probelms by itself, the Bush administration, in the name of the US, has instituted a holy war on terrorism and enlisted as many other countries as are willing to believe that this is a good cause, when the best answer is really to allow a Darwinian system of natural selection to sort things out. By the way, that last comment was satirical; I don't know what the best solution is to the problems of bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, but it sure as hell isn't the current course.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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But Motti. You have no reason to hate Bush adminastraiton.

And quit distorting facts. The vast majority of the Iraqi people aren't fighting us and you know that. The one's in Falluja are Saddam loyalists or foreign terrorists. Unless of course the news media are involved in the Bush lie scam.

I am not trying to be offensive or resort to name calling. But you are making yourself look like an ididot by saying that Hussein was no worse. Bush hasn't murdered thousands of his own people. He has tortured no one as far as we know. The thing is you just distrust the Bush administration because you're expected to. There is no reason to distrust them. They have certainly made mistakes but I just don't understand how that makes them liars.

I would continue but I have other things to do. See ya later.

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Originally posted by: GundarkHunter
The simple answer to all of this goes much deeper than Bush. As the largest free state in the world, the US has taken on the role of "defender of freedom" whether the rest of us like it or not. Most of us thought that after Vietnam that the US should know better, but it still hasn't figured it out. This attitude has created a lot of animosity, which finally reached fever pitch with 9/11. Instead of realising that backing down and admitting that it can't solve all the world's probelms by itself, the Bush administration, in the name of the US, has instituted a holy war on terrorism and enlisted as many other countries as are willing to believe that this is a good cause, when the best answer is really to allow a Darwinian system of natural selection to sort things out. By the way, that last comment was satirical; I don't know what the best solution is to the problems of bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, but it sure as hell isn't the current course.


The terrorists hate us because we are free and because we support Israel. They hate us because we aren't a corrupt Islamic pseudo-theocracy. No amount of backing down or waving the white flag will stop them from wanting us dead. And it is apalling that you suggest we should have done nothing in response to 9-11. You obviously have no idea what your talking about. Surrender--backing down, running away--is not an option and never was. We backed down around every corner in the Clinton administration and still got attacked. If we run they are simply emboldened.

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You're missing the point: who appointed the USA as the leader of the free world? It was a self-appointment, and it is precisely that arrogance that led to 9/11. A little humility goes along way.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
But now, they have killed thousands of innocent people after we helped those ungraful bladders in the cold war.

Looks like you have chosen poorly whom to help... maybe seeking for other allies would do better than that...? Don't tell me it wasn't risky to give weapons to some trigger-happy Arabs, such as Iraqi, and forgetting to think ahead "what might happen next if they are gonna feel too strong" was a major mistake.

I just hate this "war on terrorism" propaganda, where US is playing the holy knight on the white horse(TM) while France and Germany are playing flower-sniffing, peace-loving hippie. All of those countries were pumping arms to uncle Saddam when Iran was the bad guy. So, back then, when Saddam won his high position by covert murders inside the party and other brutal policies, he wasn't "a sadistic dictator" yet? It's just like saying that Hitler was still a good guy in, say, 1936, coz he didn't start the war yet...
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
I am not giving the IRA a free pass, but I would hope that Ireland could do something about them themsleves. The IRA arent' international terrrorists and aren't an immediate threat to America. And they aren't apart of a sadistic regime. I'm not saying they don't deserve justice. Actually I don't really know much about them.

"Ignorance is strenght" -- '1984' by G.Orwell
They surely are international, as they don't use Irish weapons, but those bought in Europe and USA. They didn't blow up a skyscrapper yet (mostly because you don't have that much of them in UK, ya know, Euro architecture and all) but they did kill dozens of people... not an immediate threat to America? Was Iraq one? Without ICBMs, SSBNs or even transatlantic bomber? Yes, the dirty case bomb... but everyone can use such weapon, even IRA.
The point is that US would have little business in sending expensive expedition there. Even Britain could feel uneasy with so many Yanks so close. And there are many people in America (loads of citizens with Irish origins) who support IRAs cause deep in their hearts...
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
RRs, I am sixteen if you must know. Yes. Laugh if you want. Dismiss me as a stupid child. I don't care.

But I do care Darth Chaltab. I didn't ask you about your age to laugh at you, but to properly assess who am I talking to. It's even better that you are young, as you can still change your way of thinking. I do care about young generation. On other forum, where I hold fairly high position, I'm often approached by teenagers asking lame questions. Instead of saying "go bother someone else", I give them directions, sent to proper book titles etc. to assure they won't go on the street robbing old ladies, but will continue to develop their interests in the subject on their own. I may be not so idealistic as ricarleite, as I don't believe in utopia, but I do admitt: by showing the right way to our offsprings we may help to create a better world. Not ideal, devoid of wars - wars will always happen, as people will always sin, until the end of this world. But we may help to move those wars away from us, to some unstable countries, or at least make them less severe and less frequent.
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
His father (i.e. G.Bush Senior) was too soft in the first war inIraq

True. He should have overthrown Saddam back in early 1990s, when Iraq was on its knees.
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
And don't get me started on Clinton.

LOL! I forgot, "Clinton is the root of all evil"
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
I know the US isn't guiltless but we have been on the right side of every war we've been involved in. We nevered conquered another country.

The world is not all black-or-white, i.e. good or evil. Take Vietnam for instance. Surely, the aim was to hold commie influence, but it didn't develop very nicely and in the result your country is not so proud of this war after all, eh?
And about the conquering thing: do you know Wolfowitz and his doctrines? If it was, let say, France, who would aim at global domination, would you be happy about it?
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
Why does the USSR keep coming up?

The Soviet Union didn't just pop into non-existence. They're still there, albeit in some different borders. Their leader is a former high-ranked KGB officer (just look in his eyes, LOL). A Russian general recently proposed shooting down every single NATO aircraft that will wander into Russian airspace...

When you talk about politics, you must look at the broad scope. This includes looking into past, something that many Americans have trouble with. You seem to only look at the fragments shown on TV, which are pre-selected before broadcasting.
The SU-US () Cold War was forming some sort of ballance - two strong boxers brawling, but none can get an edge over another. The old alliances and sentiments are present even today, but the lack of those two powers caused some small countries to go on a wanton destruction spree.
The shape of modern world was forged when the spoils of WW2 were divided between the victors. WW2 - an old story? Perhaps, but it decided on where your or my country are right now.
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
What is wrong with the US profiting from something?

Then at least admit it, and stop calling it "Operation: Iraqi Freedom". I hate hipocrisy.
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
the war rescued something like thirty million people from a sadistic dictator.

I wouldn't be so sure if they're happy now. I'll bet that if we could make an nation-wide poll in Iraq, the answer "Yes, we are grateful to US for intervention" wouldn't be picked by majority...
And if your gut is strong enough, check this out and tell me if you are still feeling OK about the "liberation of Iraq"... (pretty graphic stuff, I don't recommend eating and watching this... )
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
And it is apalling that you suggest we should have done nothing in response to 9-11.

Well, I didn't say that, for certain. I just wish you weren't supporting those armed paramilitary groups in decades past and simply wiped them out when they were not as strong as they are today. Great target practice for the products of the SkunkWorks(R)
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
We backed down around every corner in the Clinton administration and still got attacked.

Yes, I'm sure it was that sissy Clinton who enraged them and not Bush Senior, who got those M1A1s on Iraqi deserts in the first place.

And about you trusting Bush so much, I suggest visiting few webpages (some links are on this very forum) and reading articles written by independent journalists. Heck, you don'y have to believe them, at least you gonna learn what the "enemies of the state" are saying about the "courageous" President.

And if you ask me "why do you hate GWB so much", I will say: I
I saw the original theatrical release of the Old Trilogy on the big screen and I'm proud of it...
How did I accomplish that (considering my age) is my secret...
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Originally posted by: Bossk
Sounds like fun!

As for Yanks not being able to handle their beer... I would like to accept that challenge as extended. Since it's your challenge, djjd, you're buying. Dayv, I think you and I need to save face for our fellow U.S.ians. Shall we?

"Pints?!?! They come in pints?!?!"



lmao!!!

Do you think you'd be able to drink 20+ pints of 10% strength lager & then still stumble home? Or would we find you slumped in a gutter somewhere with chronic alcohol poisoning? hehehe

Anyways........I've always chuckled at the size of your Budweiser cans..they're the same size as our cans of coca cola!

Evil dude: "You do not no pain, you do not know fear. You will taste MAN FLESH"

Evil ugly dudes: "YIPPEEEEEEEEE!!!!"
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Originally posted by: Warbler

maybe because the IRA didn't fly Airplanes into buildings and kill over 3000 people



Ok.......as a Brit I find that extremely offensive. Perhaps before posting such a comment you should have read up a little about the IRA's mainland (meaning ENGLAND) terror campaign. Over a period of years the IRA detonated several explosive devices in PUBLIC AREA's (Manchester SHOPPING CENTRE & London's Canary Wharf to name but 2), not to mention the number of Northern Irish citizens that were killed in bomb blasts & British Soldiers that were shot/blown up whilst on a tour of duty in Northern Ireland.

Now that number may not add up to 3,000 people, it might, I haven't ever bothered to work it out, but my point is......2 innocent people killed in a terrorist attack is surely as evil and sick as 3,000 innocent people being killed? It is not the number of people that are killed that matters, but the attack on personal freedom that counts.

btw..i do find it extremely upsetting that the War (farce) On Terrorism hasn't targetted groups such as the IRA...now why is that I wonder???? Would it have anything to do with the US governments prior support & funding of the IRA?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Evil dude: "You do not no pain, you do not know fear. You will taste MAN FLESH"

Evil ugly dudes: "YIPPEEEEEEEEE!!!!"
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Perhaps the US is arrogant. Look I've lived here in Tennessee all my life so I can't know how the rest of the world feels. But standing up for what is right isn't arrogance. And as long as America is the leader of the free world we will stand up for what is right. But it wasn't our percieved or real arrogance that lead to 9-11. We support Israel. We arent' an Islamic dictatorship. That is what lead to 9-11. And suppose you are right. Suppose they do hate us because we're cocky. That still gives them no right to murder 3000 non-combatant people. To borrow a phrase from Darrel Whorly, have y'all forgotten how it felt to see Three thousand innocent people blow away? Have you no sympathy for them?! Or is it reserved for the corrupt "religious leaders" who oppress the people of the middle east?

Reagan was stopping the spread of Communism. At the time bin Laden hadn't slaughtered 3000 innocent people and there was no way we could've know what would happen in 2001. And why do you say the war on Terror is "propaganda?" We must eliminate all the international terrorists. Terrorism will still exist I am sure but it will NOT be organized as Al Quaeda and NOT state-sponsered like the Taliban.
Timothy McVeigh couldn't have hijacked four planes himself.

If the IRA murder people then they should be brought to justice. But why can't Ireland do that themselves? The US doesnt' need to invade Ireland to stop the IRA. That's overkill. And "international" terrorism is attacking civilian targets in foreign countries. It has nothing to do with where you get the guns.

I'm sorry. I figured you would dismiss my opinions as worthless or uneducated because of my age. And I agree with most of what that paragraph said. But I don't believe my thinking about this subject needs to be changed. My opinions are my own and I'm skeptical that you can persuade me.
I don't think war is a good thing. I simply accept that it is a fact of life. And as you said, it will be until the eradication of sin.

Ok. I watch part of the flash. I find it disturbing. And I... Look. This is bad. The fact that those things happened was certainly a tragic thing. And I understant fully how those people might hate the US for what happended to them and their familes. But if we had left Hussein in power would it not be worse for them. For others. Why not watch a flash presentation of the Baath torturing people? It is tragic anytime a civilian is killed in war. But a "government' terrorising it's own civilians is as much of a tragedy if not more of one.

And yeah, it is a bad thing that we supported them and I really don't know why we didn't destroy them then. There was a failure of every administration's part to get them before they got us. But it was Clinton who sat around and had sex in the White house instead of doing something about terrorism. I don't want to play the "blame game." If we blame anyone, blame those who chose to kill US citizens.

When I said why doest the USSR keep coming up, I meant why blame Bush II for our foregin policy then?Reagan was president then. And no matter what you think of Reagan, there is no denying if it wasn't for him the SU wouldn't have collapsed when it did. And I know that there are still KGB people in high ranking offices in Russia. But the USSR as a whole has collapsed. They no longer have ICBMs pointed at us. As for recommending books. I recommend "The Way Things Ought to Be" by Rush Limbaugh (it's old but still fairly relevant, minus the war on terror) and "Deliver Us from EVIL" by Sean Hannity. These books present facts, not just opinions and the latter is very well-documented if you don't trust Hannity.

Well I'm surprised no limbs have gone flying (SW reference) in this debate yet. Well except for Motti's cussing... but he was probably drunk. Anyway. I'll subject myself to what y'all think now.

Edit: Look. I admit ignorance. I don't know enough about the IRA to argue any points made about them.

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
have y'all forgotten how it felt to see Three thousand innocent people blow away? Have you no sympathy for them?!

The symptoms of American amnesia are showing again... you seem to forget about the compassion displayed worldwide after the 9/11 massacre. It took a whole war to dimnish it.
None of us here ever presented even a hint of sympathy to Hussain, bin Laden or terror groups. Like I said before, they should be all neutralized long time ago. American intervention in Afghanistan to overthow the Taliban regime supporting terrorists was understandable - I don't see anybody arguing about that.
But we do wonder about the sudden change of priorities. TV suddenly stopped to talk about bin Laden and switched to Hussain, as if the first was no longer a problem. This, and other (alleged?) aspects (the profits of US gaining control of the oil fields in Middle East, personal vendetta of Bush family etc.) make us question the legitimacy of US intervention. We do not say that Saddam is OK. Do not mistake us with those freaks who wanted to be his live shields.
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
At the time bin Laden hadn't slaughtered 3000 innocent people and there was no way we could've know what would happen in 2001.

No way to guess? If you give a granade to a maniac you think he will be grateful and is not going to throw it into your house?
They weren't given weapons without a cause... they were meant to be a dangerous group, but their target supposed to be USSR, and not USA... but things got out of control and the "good" terrorist transformed into bad terrorists...
If you fight by the sword, you die by the sword.
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
And why do you say the war on Terror is "propaganda?"

Because formerly USA was the state sponsoring the terror groups and Arab regimes and now you're playing saint.
Have you heard about Crusades? The ones aimed to liberate the Holy Land from Muslims? Everything in the name of Christianity and God? Do you know where the last Crusade ended? (I'm not talking about Indiana Jones here ) It destroyed Constantinople, the heart of Byzantum, the Eastern Christian church! Why? Because it was business! They were the competition and Western Roman Empire wanted none.
That is why I'm sceptical when people shout that some war is waged in the name of God, Nation, Freedom etc. Wars are usually about economical influences of a given state(s) and their immediate profits.
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
We must eliminate all the international terrorists. If the IRA murder people then they should be brought to justice.

We all agree about this. No matter how just may be their cause, all terrorist should be eradicated as they don't fight wars with the soldiers, but cowardly kill the innocent.
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
And "international" terrorism is attacking civilian targets in foreign countries.

I am sure that among the casulaties amassed over the years there were people outside of Britain/Ireland.
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
Well I'm surprised no limbs have gone flying in this debate yet.

That's because we're all civilized here and not tyrants like Saddam H.
I saw the original theatrical release of the Old Trilogy on the big screen and I'm proud of it...
How did I accomplish that (considering my age) is my secret...
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab


If the IRA murder people then they should be brought to justice. But why can't Ireland do that themselves? The US doesnt' need to invade Ireland to stop the IRA. That's overkill. And "international" terrorism is attacking civilian targets in foreign countries. It has nothing to do with where you get the guns.

Edit: Look. I admit ignorance. I don't know enough about the IRA to argue any points made about them.



Hey no worries matey! Thanks for taking the time to write such a lengthy & very mature response!

I can offer a few reasons (from my own limited understanding of the Irish situation, which has over the last few years ALMOST resolved itself)

The problem with the violence in Ireland comes from the countries split. The IRA are loyal to Eire (or Southern Ireland, if you like), they target mainland England and Northern Ireland, which is an English colony, if you want to put it in laymans terms, because they refuse to accept English rule. Unfortunately the rift between north and south has been in existence for 100's of years. Religion is a major factor, Eire being Catholic and Northern Ireland being predominantly Protestant, although Belfast, the capital of Northern Ireland has both a Protestant sector & a Catholic sector! Confusing eh?

Now the Irish (Eire) govt.won't stop the IRA because the very party, Sinn Feinn support the IRA, which stands for Irish Republican Army. It was long believed by the British govt. that the IRA had leaders in Sinn Fein.

Another factor is the invasion of Ireland by Oliver Cromwell, during the English Civil War, around 1650. The slaughter of the Irish people by Cromwell's army and subsequent occupation of the Northern territory has been considered by the majority of historians to be the cause for the resentment in Ireland and the subsequent terrorist attacks! There are more factors to consider but perhaps I should stop there with the history lesson before I bore everyone to death!!

The problem with a war on terror is; how do you know when the terrorists have been defeated? How do you win a war on terror? As long as there are Superpowers (for want of a better word) flexing their might and influence upon others, there will always be a cause to fight against! I'm not solely pointing the finger at the US here, Russia has had it's fair share of terrorists, as have the majority of the Arabic states! You could even take it down to the base level of corporate espionage...as long as one Company is seen as controlling a majority, theer will always be those that stand against it, oppose it and will fight to undermine it.

IMHO the war on terrorism WILL NEVER END, it can only lead to more misery. All I can see is the war on terrorism eventually leading to world war. You may think I'm over reacting but............

How long do you think that other countries of significant power will stand by and watch as lesser countries get bombed back into the stone age? It will only take one bombing campaign to the wrong country and events will spiral so quickly beyond anyone's control that we won't have time to consider what exactly has gone on before all hell breaks loose!


I'm not trying to contest that at times it hasn't been necessary to "remove" troubling individuals from their seats of power. Perhaps what troubles most people in the free Western world is the manner in which these recent reciprications have taken place?

Just as a point of interest....Bin Laden was trained by the C.I.A and funded by the US govt to combat the Russian occupation of Afghanistan!

Also, it is worthy of noting that during the rebuilding of Afghanistan more American troops were guarding construction sites for newly lain OIL PIPES than anywhere else. An event which also occured during the recent re-occupation of Iraq! It is factor's such as this that make people question the validity of the US's aims in the Middle East.

Perhaps lessons COULD be learned from the mistakes the British Empire made? A country's population that feels threatened and repressed WILL rebel against the occupiers, with their freedom gone, their pride and nobility stripped of them is it any wonder that they will rise against any occupying force? This can clearly be seen today with the people of Iraq.....I find it amazing that after the mass bombing of their cities and people that the US troops assumed they would be welcomed with open arms for ridding them of a tyrant! The replacement of one tyrannical leader with another (in the eyes of the middle eastern world, not my opnions) will only further add to the grief, misery and resentment already present within such a troubled region of the World. I do not presume to know what the answer to the Middle Eastern crisis is...but perhaps the relaxing of the Iron Glove of America would be a step in the right direction?

OMG! You can so tell I've written these sections independant of each other & now have had trouble making them flow but what the hell...i dont care Im just one dumb Brit who's opnions dont really count for shit in the grand scheme of things!

Evil dude: "You do not no pain, you do not know fear. You will taste MAN FLESH"

Evil ugly dudes: "YIPPEEEEEEEEE!!!!"
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Originally posted by: RRS-1980

Have you heard about Crusades? The ones aimed to liberate the Holy Land from Muslims? Everything in the name of Christianity and God?



Wow RRS I'm glad you picked up on that! I was thinking exactly the same whilst writing my lengthy response, but totally forgot about it by the end of it!

There are many who also feel that the Crusades against the Middle East ARE the cause of the HATRED that many muslims show towards the West. Yes, the Christian infidels!

I read an incredibly interesting series of articles on a website, that primarily deals with Astronomy(lol), about the whole 9/11 tragedy and the troubles between East and West. They had an interesting theory about WHY the World Trade Centre was the chosen target and the reasons behind the attack. A war that has waged for nearly 1,000 years......the Crusades!

They argue that the WTC was targetted as part of an attempt to start a Jihad (for those that don't know it's a Muslim Holy War) between Christianity (being America) and Islam (being the Islamic states of the Middle East). Within the text of the essay's they theorise that the WTC was targetted in revenge for the capture of the Twin Pillars of Islam during the Crusades. What does this have to do with the USA you might ask? Well if you consider that the most hated of the Christian soldiers, by Islam, were the KNIGHTS TEMPLAR, responsible for the capture of the Twins Pillars, and then consider that their (knights templar) descendants were known as THE PILGRIM FATHERS!!!! Now if you know your American history, doesn't it add up to a wonderful conspiracy theory?

It's all speculation I know but it's an awesome read and doesn't half make you think and possibly reconsider your preconceptions of what is REALLY going on behind closed doors, things that joe normal WILL NEVER know about!

If anyone is interested in ploughing through these very lengthy essays then please say so & I'll be happy to post a link here on the board!
Evil dude: "You do not no pain, you do not know fear. You will taste MAN FLESH"

Evil ugly dudes: "YIPPEEEEEEEEE!!!!"
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I know the US isn't guiltless but we have been on the right side of every war we've been involved in. We nevered conquered another country.


OMG I am sorry man but that is such and arrogant statement, America has been on the right side of every war. Lets name the last three wars America has been part of. The second golf war they went to war on lies. On faulty intelligence, the ends DOES NOT justify the means. Saddam had no weapons he said so many times he let arms inspectors in. (yes he was secretive but that is his right. he does not have to lie down for America) and we find out now that he didn’t have any. Afghanistan. This was a very good move, bush attacked the root of the problem after 911 I agreed with this war and I commended bush for it. Rather then attacking everything is sight after 911 bush thought it through then attacked. Then we go back to 1990 to the first golf war. Just curious do you know how that war was started. Ill tell you. Kuwait was drilling at an angle and taping oil on Iraq’s side of the boarder. In effect they were stealing Iraq’s oil. saddam found out, told them to stop, they wouldn’t and so saddam invaded. America thinking they were the best then went in and attacked Iraq, in effect America defeated the thieves. Now tell me was America on the "right" side in 2 of those last three wars. NO lets look at some of the other wars they were a part of. In Vietnam they tried to impose their capitalistic views on a country that was going to become communist is that right or wrong to impose your views on others. Then in Afghanistan they fueled supplies to the Arabs so that Afghanistan would not be taken over by the USSR. Then in WWII the Americans only entered the war only after they had been attacked even thou Britain and France and Canada was asking for their help b4 hand and even thought Hitler was committing the holocaust where was there urge to be the law enforcement of the world then. then lets go way back to the 19th century. America annexed New Mexico, Texas, and California from Mexico. They took over that land. (so don’t tell me the US has never taken over other countries directly. heaven knows how many countries they have taken over indirectly.) Back then they also annexed Washington stat, which was originally going to be part of Canada when Canada gained independence. And your telling me they aren’t gutless. America isn’t your right but they are nowhere near innocent either. Don’t get me wrong wither I like America I will probably live there one day and be a citizen. But I really do despise there foreign polices and really wish they would just sit in there own country and not worry about what is going on in the middle east the only reason 911 happened was because they would not stop influencing the middle east whether they were financing a rebel group or a government or actual there trying to oust leaders they didn’t like

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fighting is part of mans nature


Personally I feel that man is good. Go to any individual and ask them some basic questions about war and justice and they will all reply in the same way but when you get groups of people now that is where things get bugged up.

That is all for now cus I just saw this topic. Topic and I don’t want confer too much at one time other wise people start missing the points that are being brought up.
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Originally posted by: RRS-1980

Have you heard about Crusades? The ones aimed to liberate the Holy Land from Muslims? Everything in the name of Christianity and God?
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your right bush does look like he is ogin on cursades but in my opinion he is not he is just trying to do what he things is right. but he does not realize that it is not his place to do those things. he should let other people solve there problems not solve them for them.
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bush even said this was a crusade...

there are even some people that say that bombing the Twin Towers of the WTC was a military target, since it was the economic heart of the USA, and anyone with little knowledge to war knows that disrupting the flow of funds is like severing supply lines; very important in war.

the invasion of iraq is illegal according to the constitution of the USA.

the problem is that the USA thinks it is the only kid in the playground. when the world says "no", the USA says "fuck it". thats the problem. the problem is that the USA, at this point, is not learning from history, much like israel.

"do onto others as others have done to you" is a common phrase in the oval office, im afraid.
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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you people are really offending me. I don't know that I even want to continue posting at this forum after reading some of that. Saddam no worse than Bush? that's bullshit!! Bush is a bad President(not for much longer I hope) but Saddam is an evil murdering dictator. there is no comparison.

Point out to me in the Constitution where is says that the President can't attack Iraq. I know it says that the Congress declares wars, but it names the President commander and chief of the armed forces. So the question is what can the Presdent do with the military without the Congress declaring war? I don't know. Its hard to say. But Presidents have been doing it since Korea.

Motti, the Twin towers were not a Military target. They were a place where over 3,000 civilians worked. CIVILIANS!!!!!! that really offended me, Motti, please don't try to justify that kind of mass murder, you can't. The people who commited the attacks were sick evil murderers pure and simple. And it offends me when you suggest that the USA is somehow deserving of that kind of attack. The 3000 people who were killed didn't deserve it pure and simple!

Shim, first you complain about how The U.S. didn't do anything about Hitler until we were attacked, that we did nothing while he began to murder Jews. Now you want us to do nothing while Saddam Murders his own people. You can't have it both ways.

Is the Ira evil and should they be taken down? yes But they havn't attacked us yet, they don't continue to threaten to attack us. I'm not against Great Britian going after the Ira. It is just that Al-qaeda attacked us and is threatening to do it again and therefor they take priority over the IRA (for the USA that is). And I am unaware of any connection between the IRA and the USA.

As for that Video. It is tragic. But How do we know that those were casualties caused by the US. They could have been caused by the terrorist attacks going on there. For all we know, half of those pictures could have been taken outside of Iraq. I am also sure that you can find simular pictures from Berlin after the Allies bombed it and from France after D-DAY. But does that make D-Day, and the Bombing of Berlin wrong? No because Hitler had to be stopped.

If we set Hitler up. are we wrong to take him down. Point is, is that if a dictator/terrorist group etc needs to be taken down, it is irelevant how they came to be. They still need to be taken down. If you want to say the USA was wrong to set up Al-qaeda, and Saddam fine. But that doesn't mean that the USA is wrong for taking them down.

I would ask all those who think we were wrong for attacking afganistan. To tell me what we should have done. And keep in mind that we don't have time machines to go back in time and stop ourselves from setting Al-qaeda up. Al-qaeda is here no matter how much we now regret helping them in the past, they are still here and are a threat. What in hell are we supposed to do?!? Tell me!

I really have to give deep thought as to weither or not I want to continue being a poster on this forum after reading the anti-american statments made here. I'm sorry and this is not about Bush (who hopfully will lose the next election) I am a proud American and your statements have hurt me
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oh no warbler, you have me misunderstood... in NO WAY did i imply i can justify, i just stated that there were people who think like that, and im not talking about uneducated people. i dont think like that, dont worry. nor do i condone it in any way... ok maybe "Bush no worse than SH " was a bit harsh, but it got the meaning across, and no i dont think he is no worse than SH...

i am NOT anti-american, i am anti-american-foreign-policy-at-the-moment. what i dont like is that the bush administration is currently burning down the bridges with other countries... there is too much running solo, thats what im afraid of. im afraid it will hurt the USA in a way noone has foreseen yet. i love the USA and what it stands for and what it has achieved, but im afraid that bush is taking this country down the drain...

sorry if i offended anyone here... those are political views being expressed, not hostilities towards an entire country...

"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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Warbler, first of all, is leaving the forum because people disagree with your point of view not in the least bit extreme?

If you don't like, or are not willing to accept, that people have different views from you then the simplest cause of action is to avoid reading this section of the forum. It doesn't stop you from posting in any other section or having the opportunity to discuss Star Wars with fellow fans. As I stated on a couple of occasions, in this topic & other areas, if you discuss politics, YOU ARE PLAYING WITH FIRE. Everyone on this board has an opnion & whether or not you agree with it, it is their opinion & you MUST atleast acknowledge it, you donot have to agree with it but the least you can do is acknowledge it. Is it not written in your constitution that people have the freedom of speech? Well that's exactly what is occuring here, everyone is expressing their views in an adult & civilised way. The same goes for everyone here, I'm not singling you out, I am being as mindful of my own words as I'd expect anyone reading this to be.

If you have been caused any offence by any comments that have been written here, then accept the apologies that have been offered and move on. I was offended by some of your comments BUT you learn to accept that it is impossible to sway someone to your way of thinking if they are passionate about the point in question. I am not going to leave the board because of some of the opinions you have expressed, I don't agree with all of them, but then that's my prerogative. I will just continue with my insignificant life knowing that out there are a lot of people with very independant view points & surely that is a great thing?

You are clearly a patriot, and again thats an admirable quality, not being an American I can't share your enthusiasm. I am as patriotic as the next person when it comes to verbal assaults on my country, but at the same time, I can also question the legitimacy of some the UK's actions in recent years, that again is my prerogative, it is my right, as a UK citizen, living in a Democracy to question the Status Quo, my vote will depend on them seeing another 3-4 years in power. That is what living in a "free society" is all about. There will always be those that are patriotic and will accept any decision made by the powers that be and there will always be those that oppose! Nothing you or I can do about it!

Our comments are not anti-American, our comments are questioning the legality and the execution of recent engagements, which is well within our civil rights.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but were there other countries involved in the recent occupation of Iraq? Yes or no? Were there other countries involved in the recent emancipation of Afghanistan? Yes or no?

The answer to both is yes. Then it is obviously fair to assume that whatever doubts some of the posters hold is also reflected at these other countries. I have never witnessed such an anti war demonstration as I did in London, Bristol and Cardiff, to name but a few UK cities, where thousands and thousands of people, I think in London there was upwards of 500,000 people, took to the streets to let OUR government know that we did not want to see another war in Iraq. Obviously there was also a vocal majority that wanted to see an end to SH regime. Both sides were allowed to express their opinions in a vocal BUT NON VIOLENT manner. I'm quite sure that the Governments decision to send troops to the Gulf will affect their ability to win the next General Election, but as I do not have a time machine I cannot make any further comment on the outcome.

Anyway I think I've said all I want to say at this time. The debate will no doubt rage on, but please just read and re-read what I have written (the first couple of paragraphs if necessary) and take the time to let them sink in. You will always disagree with someone here, as I will, but don't let your anger cloud your judgement and fruitlessly leave this board. You will just be letting your anger win, and that's not a good thing. There is nothing worse than cutting off your nose, to spite your face!

Well I doubt this will help matters any, but the least i can do is try.......

Evil dude: "You do not no pain, you do not know fear. You will taste MAN FLESH"

Evil ugly dudes: "YIPPEEEEEEEEE!!!!"
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well put djjd...
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)